|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
I believe it would still show in the follicle.
Kinda made me chuckle, I can imagine one of these players running into a waxing place yelling, "wax it all off"
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
i thought the reason it was still in your hair after a few months is because that hair is dead cells from several months ago
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098 |
Quote:
I believe it would still show in the follicle.
Kinda made me chuckle, I can imagine one of these players running into a waxing place yelling, "wax it all off"
one word:
NAIR.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649 |
J/C
Any word yet on Haden?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
J/C
Any word yet on Haden?
just Grossi's
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you smoke dope today or use smack today... if I take a hair sample and test it instead of urine, I can tell sometimes for up to a year.
What if they buzz/shave their head all the time? Arm, leg or back hair can be used?
Maybe a sick question.....just wondering.
They will go armpit. If you shave everything including that, they can deny you employment until you can provide a sample.
My work does hair testing because the hourly employees may use cranes and other dangerous equipment.
It can show up for a very long time, but we are only allowed to see the last 90 days. Even smoking one time can show up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you smoke dope today or use smack today... if I take a hair sample and test it instead of urine, I can tell sometimes for up to a year.
What if they buzz/shave their head all the time? Arm, leg or back hair can be used?
Maybe a sick question.....just wondering. [/quote
here's the deal, if a guy totally shaves himself for the express purpose of hiding the evidence that he may be a drug user, he isn't getting hired. either way, he doesn't win.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
i thought the one distinction the NFL could make was a PED vs. non-PED distinction when issuing the suspension.
so, he could cover for steroids but not cocaine. has this changed in the new CBA?
As far as I know, this is correct. A first-time violation of the substance abuse policy is entering a required treatment program. First time for PEDs is 4-game suspension.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Yeah but he hasn't "performed" yet  since the season hasn't started. I would just like to know whats going on.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 249
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 249 |
I'd love to believe this is just Grossi grasping at straws but my gut says we're going to be without Joe for the first 4 games. I hope my gut feeling is just gas or something.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
If Haden is suspended at least I will be happy that it is for Adderall and not something illicit.
I am curious why he would have been taking adderall.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
If Haden is suspended at least I will be happy that it is for Adderall and not something illicit.
I am curious why he would have been taking adderall.
Do they release what it actually is?
Or are they just SAYING it's Adderall?
That's my only question.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
Quote:
Quote:
If Haden is suspended at least I will be happy that it is for Adderall and not something illicit.
I am curious why he would have been taking adderall.
Do they release what it actually is?
Or are they just SAYING it's Adderall?
That's my only question.
I don't think anyone is saying Adderall, but just was mentioned and people are running with it as it is Adderal if there is any teeth to this whole story anyways. Sounds to me that people are still running with the story from Grossi who got it from who knows who. After all this did start on Twitter and twitter has fooled people before as it did with ESPN when they mistook @AdarnSchefter as their own @AdamSchefter and posted one of the Adarn fake tweets. Just for those wondering... the first one is @A-d-a-r-n-S-c-h-e-f-t-e-r. The r and the n make it look like a 'm.'
I'll be waiting to hear something beyond regurgitated Grossi.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,523
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,523 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Adderall stays detectable in your urine between two to four days. So Joe had used it within a few days of his drug test.
This differs from pot which stays in your system for weeks. Steroids can be in your system anywhere from 4 days to many months depending on the steroid.
(For anyone curious)
Marijuana can actually be out in less than 7 days in certain cases. Depends on the person, usage, etc..
Like I said before. it's hard to make judgement, but I think it's awful convienent that the NFL cannot say anything, therefore these players can use a cop-out excuse like adderall to cover up something that looks worse like steroids or cocaine or whatever.
If you smoke dope today or use smack today... if I take a hair sample and test it instead of urine, I can tell sometimes for up to a year.
That's a fact, I do that kinda testing all the time on my contract employees. they think they can sneak in some weed and get away with it a after a few months.. Not true.
I do not know if that works for adderall..
The Gestapo is alive and well.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
i thought the one distinction the NFL could make was a PED vs. non-PED distinction when issuing the suspension.
so, he could cover for steroids but not cocaine. has this changed in the new CBA?
As far as I know, this is correct. A first-time violation of the substance abuse policy is entering a required treatment program. First time for PEDs is 4-game suspension.
Will Burge from KNR said that last night. First time violation of a non-PED drug doesn't warrant a suspension. No way Haden would give up more than a million dollars to make sure it didn't look like he was smoking the ganj or any other party drug. So it's either a PED or he's telling the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Adderall is illicit if used without a prescription. Its a controlled substance, its basically amphetamines. Its used to treat ADHD and Narcolepsy.
What I have to wonder is say Haden has one of these problems, and has a legitimate prescription from a doctor to be taking this stuff. I would love to know how the nfl could say that you can't take it. They have no right to do so imo.
I would imagine that he would test positive in using this with a prescription, then the testing company would have to verify that he does indeed have a prescription.
If he does then there is no failed drug test imo.
Its odd that we haven't heard anything more to this. HIPPA would probably be in effect if it is a medical problem, and might be why we aren't hearing anything.
I would assume that if it was an illegal use, then it would be more cut and dry, and we would have had more reports.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
For the love of all that is Holy . . . How long are we waiting for this?
Yes - Suspended
No - Not Suspended
CHECK ONE
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 73,448 |
It will come out today ... the league likes to announce this stuff on Fridays
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Adderall is illicit if used without a prescription. Its a controlled substance, its basically amphetamines. Its used to treat ADHD and Narcolepsy.
What I have to wonder is say Haden has one of these problems, and has a legitimate prescription from a doctor to be taking this stuff. I would love to know how the nfl could say that you can't take it. They have no right to do so imo.
I would imagine that he would test positive in using this with a prescription, then the testing company would have to verify that he does indeed have a prescription.
If he does then there is no failed drug test imo.
Its odd that we haven't heard anything more to this. HIPPA would probably be in effect if it is a medical problem, and might be why we aren't hearing anything.
I would assume that if it was an illegal use, then it would be more cut and dry, and we would have had more reports.
If you don't report a subscription to the league, you can still be suspended for a positive test.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
Adderall is illicit if used without a prescription. Its a controlled substance, its basically amphetamines. Its used to treat ADHD and Narcolepsy.
What I have to wonder is say Haden has one of these problems, and has a legitimate prescription from a doctor to be taking this stuff. I would love to know how the nfl could say that you can't take it. They have no right to do so imo.
I would imagine that he would test positive in using this with a prescription, then the testing company would have to verify that he does indeed have a prescription.
If you have a prescription for a drug on the NFL Banned Substances list you have to notify team doctors who will fill out paperwork and send it in for League approval.
If you are popped for a banned drug and you didn't have prior league approval you have no case. These guys are millionaires and can easily pay off a doctor to write them a prescription hence why you need to have prior approval.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
For the love of all that is Holy . . . How long are we waiting for this?
Yes - Suspended
No - Not Suspended
CHECK ONE
they are likely waiting on that B-sample to be tested. and after the Braun incident in MLB, I'll bet they are being as careful as possible with every step of procedure these days.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Quote:
If you have a prescription for a drug on the NFL Banned Substances list you have to notify team doctors who will fill out paperwork and send it in for League approval.
If you are popped for a banned drug and you didn't have prior league approval you have no case. These guys are millionaires and can easily pay off a doctor to write them a prescription hence why you need to have prior approval.
That may very well be. Maybe paperwork got lost or something. Medical billing/insurance isn't exactly effective the way it operates. Who knows what the story is.
I don't see why the nfl should have the right to approve anything. If a doctor says you need it, then that should be it. If anything you should maybe have to visit an nfl doctor also to confirm the diagnosis to cut down on what you were saying.
I can understand certain drugs, if they have no medical benefit. Thats cut and dry. If a drug is legitimately prescribed, then I fail to see how they could suspend anyone for the same amount of time as a player who uses something illegally.
Fine him or the team for not filing something the proper way, but don't treat him like his is using an illegal drug, if he's not.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
That may very well be. Maybe paperwork got lost or something. Medical billing/insurance isn't exactly effective the way it operates. Who knows what the story is.
It's pretty simple. You don't take the drug until the league gives you permission. If the paperwork got lost then he didn't have permission.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
That may very well be. Maybe paperwork got lost or something. Medical billing/insurance isn't exactly effective the way it operates. Who knows what the story is.
It's pretty simple. You don't take the drug until the league gives you permission. If the paperwork got lost then he didn't have permission.
Not to mention how hard is it to have your people send over the documentation. You have your own agent or agents, you have trainers and medical personnel, etc...
Paperwork lost? That's a horrible excuse. These are multi-million dollar athletes in a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Don't make excuses for him, there's a good chance he did something he wasn't supposed to. If it's truly only adderall, than he can bounce back from this and be the old Joe Haden we all know and love, and maybe he will learn from this, as well as other players on the team.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Adderall stays detectable in your urine between two to four days. So Joe had used it within a few days of his drug test.
This differs from pot which stays in your system for weeks. Steroids can be in your system anywhere from 4 days to many months depending on the steroid.
(For anyone curious)
Marijuana can actually be out in less than 7 days in certain cases. Depends on the person, usage, etc..
Like I said before. it's hard to make judgement, but I think it's awful convienent that the NFL cannot say anything, therefore these players can use a cop-out excuse like adderall to cover up something that looks worse like steroids or cocaine or whatever.
If you smoke dope today or use smack today... if I take a hair sample and test it instead of urine, I can tell sometimes for up to a year.
That's a fact, I do that kinda testing all the time on my contract employees. they think they can sneak in some weed and get away with it a after a few months.. Not true.
I do not know if that works for adderall..
The Gestapo is alive and well.
In what way?
If an employer wants to make sure that he isn't hiring someone with an illegal drug problem, then how does that make him the Gestapo?
Illegal drugs can lead to a ton of problems in the workplace. Hell, if I have someone in a position of authority, I want to make sure that any potential problems are eliminated right off the top.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517 |
with hair drug testing, every inch and a half is 90 days. so if you are a stoner hippie with super long hair, we can go back a long time also, if you shave your head, you just screwed yourself. body hair goes back 12 months standard. however, i would like to ask spurgeon why he said "there's a good chance he did something he wasnt supposed to" why? i don't want to bring race into this, but why assume he did? because TONY GROSSI said so? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
I understand what you are saying...guess i don't like the word permission. Notify them sure. Permission makes it sound like they can say no.
Maybe they can, i don't know. What a person's doctor does to treat them should be between them and them alone. The only question should be legal or illegal.
I can see notifying the league that a person is on a med that will result in a positive test. Imo it would be no different if a person didn't have to notify the league, tests positive, and says here's my doctors number, check it out.
My point was that if it is a notification infraction, then it shouldn't be treated the same as an illegal use of a drug.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
The league can say no if they feel after reviewing it with their medical personnel that the treatment does not fit the diagnose. You can go in California and tell a doctor you are having trouble sleeping and they can prescribe you Marijuana. Do you think the League will accept that? No way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Quote:
Paperwork lost? That's a horrible excuse
And what if the Browns or his agent, or whoever is supposed to send this notification, did send it. Is it an email? Fax? Certified letter?
Did they send it, and some smuck in the NFL offices forgot to check a box? There are humans all along the path here. I'm not excusing haden...i'm simply saying lets wait to hear what happened.
Only reason i brought any of this up, is that it seems odd that we haven't heard anything. If it was cut and dry I would think we would have heard more sooner.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
And what if the Browns or his agent, or whoever is supposed to send this notification, did send it. Is it an email? Fax? Certified letter?
More than likely a Fax or e-mail. Then more than likely a notification sent back that they paperwork was received and is under review. After that a notification that the league accepted or didn't accept that you can take the banned substance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
I understand what you are saying...guess i don't like the word permission. Notify them sure. Permission makes it sound like they can say no.
Maybe they can, i don't know. What a person's doctor does to treat them should be between them and them alone. The only question should be legal or illegal.
there are enough doctors on teams payrolls that have allowed for shady prescriptions that the NFL does have to have the ability to say no. they should have to back it up if challenged (like make them to go an independent doctor not affiliated with either the team or NFL), but it's got to be there.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
The Gestapo is alive and well.
Quote:
In what way?
If an employer wants to make sure that he isn't hiring someone with an illegal drug problem, then how does that make him the Gestapo?
Illegal drugs can lead to a ton of problems in the workplace. Hell, if I have someone in a position of authority, I want to make sure that any potential problems are eliminated right off the top.
Just because an employee test positive, that doesn't mean that he or she did drugs or was high during company time.
That's my biggest beef with the drug testing program.
The Gestapo controlled every aspect of your life if you lived under their control, so yes it is befitting imo.
On the other hand what if they are drunk at work? I guess that's okay right, because it is legal.
I have seen this morose, then someone being high on drugs and that is something that can be tested during working hours, yet it is generally not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Well, are drugs 100% out of an employee's system when they are on the clock? What happens to the employer's insurance cost if the employee has an accident, and has residual drugs in his system?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,986
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,986 |
For one, most of the drugs tested for in a drug test are illegal without a prescription. So if the person tests positive, then it is proof that the person illegally took drugs, possibly while at work.
Secondly, how can he prove he didn't take it on company time? Or took it at home before coming to work?
I'm amazed that you would equate enforcing a law and right of the company to the Gestapo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
with hair drug testing, every inch and a half is 90 days.
so if you are a stoner hippie with super long hair, we can go back a long time
also, if you shave your head, you just screwed yourself. body hair goes back 12 months standard.
however, i would like to ask spurgeon why he said "there's a good chance he did something he wasnt supposed to"
why? i don't want to bring race into this, but why assume he did? because TONY GROSSI said so?
It has nothing to do with race. I'm not Grossi's biggest fan like most Browns fans aren't, but there is clearly something to this story. The Browns are refusing to comment. They aren't calling bull on this.
Could it be nothing? Sure. I'm not willing to bet on that though.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Well, are drugs 100% out of an employee's system when they are on the clock? What happens to the employer's insurance cost if the employee has an accident, and has residual drugs in his system?
I can't answer that, It's a hypothetical question, but to say that most drugs don't last that long and in the case of weed, there are no morning after side effects.
Alcohol is a far greater problem in the workplace imo and it comes with side effects. I have witnessed this more times then I care to remember. Sometimes they are sent home for the day, but many still keep their jobs and their drunken ways.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
If I had an employee come to work drunk, I'd fire his ass. Same thing if an employee came to work high.
The harder thing to determine is when a guy is just "kinda" high or drunk ...... maybe he partied it up the night before, and is still under some of the influence. That's what pre-employment drug tests try to eliminate. They try to eliminate the guy who habitually is abusing drugs ..... with high levels in his system. Further, they may want to just completely stay away from someone using illegal drugs ...... because they are ..... illegal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
For one, most of the drugs tested for in a drug test are illegal without a prescription. So if the person tests positive, then it is proof that the person illegally took drugs, possibly while at work.
Secondly, how can he prove he didn't take it on company time? Or took it at home before coming to work?
I'm amazed that you would equate enforcing a law and right of the company to the Gestapo.
Your right Alcohol is legal and that's okay? It's a far greater and wide spread problem and puts your employee's at a far greater risk for injury.
There is no level playing field. That's my biggest problem.
I like to have a few beers myself, but I don't combine it with my work.
For the most part drug users, use them for recreation ... meaning on their own time. A drunk will drink all day everyday.
In my life and life of business I can't ever recall having to fire someone for using drugs at the work place, but I have fired or replaced a many a drunks, because they simply can't keep it out of the workplace or make it to work on time.
Go out to lunch to any bar any day of the week and you will find many drinking along with their lunch and then go back to work.
What are the statistics for those injured on the job due to drugs?
I don't know.
I would venture to guess that they would be far less then those who have been injured, because of a drunk.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
because they are ..... illegal.
Makes no difference to me if they are legal or not ... at one time cocaine was legal. Alcohol is legal.
Weather you have a prescription or not it still has the 'same effects' on you, then if you took a pill you where not prescribed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
I used to work with a guy that came in drunk or hungover pretty much everyday. The company fired him, but he came back with a medical excuse that basically said he was an alcoholic, and its a disability. Since at the time PA and the ADA accepted it as a disability he couldnt be fired for it. Total BS if you ask me.
That being said its perfectly legal for me to get hammered after work and not to get stoned. That is the difference. Neither may be "right", but one is legal and the other isnt.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Haden Facing Suspension
|
|
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
