DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What's the Secret to Success?

Ehh... that's only partially correct. What makes a QB "elite?" When you look at QBs who've been great over the years, you actually see a pretty wide range of physical skills. However, three things made them truly great:

1. Intelligence (in a football sense anyway - see Bradshaw, Montana )
2. Toughness (mental and physical)
3. An offensive system that matched their skillsets perfectly

Without the third component, even the best skillset won't ultimately succeed.

So, your diatribe against "The Patriot Way" is simply wrong. I would argue that "The Patriot Way," "The Steeler Way," "The Raven Way," and "The Packer Way" are THE reasons why these organizations are always in the playoff picture. They've found systems that work. They know exactly what kind of players they need to fit the various slots they have in those systems. They take the time to groom those players to fill those roles once the veteran starters get too old (or too expensive) to keep. This is true from the lowest of special-teamers all the way up to the QB.

Up until now, "The Browns Way" has been one disaster after another. I look forward to the day when "The Browns Way" looks a lot like "The Patriots Way" or "The Steelers Way" and OTHER football fans get sick of hearing about it. Are we on our way to figuring out what we are and how we're going to play going forward? I don't know. However, until "The Browns Way" emerges and is sustainable, we'll only be able to watch teams like New England and WISH we could be such an irritant to the rest of the NFL.

Let's talk again about the "Patriot Way" after Brady retires.

I'll grant you that some of the establised teams running consistent systems leads to a certain amount of success (see Ravens). But until those teams find the QB, they are always knocking on the door, not going through it (see Ravens). Of course, there is the rare exception from time to time.

And you are now also getting into the chicken/egg question. Did the "Patriot Way" exist before Brady? I'd argue no way. So where you're implying Brady was inserted into the "Patriot Way", I'd argue the "Patriot Way" is a byproduct of Brady.

QB is the most important position in ALL of sports. Everything trickles down from there.

Actually, I would consider Roethlisberger a great QB.

The guy is absolutely fearless in the pocket. he will wait beyond the last minute to allow his receivers to get open. For his career he has completed 63% of his passes, averages 8.02 yards/pass attempt, and has thrown 165 TDs and 100 INTs in 8 professional seasons.

In 8 years he has 363 passes of more than 20+ yards, and 70 of 40+. Compared to other QBs, he is right at the top on almost all of these areas.

He also started as a rookie. His team probably did help him get to the to the Super Bowl in 2006, as he was more of a caretaker ..... however he still averaged almost 9 yards/pass attempt. That's incredible.

The Steelers are always going to run the ball. That probably takes away from some of Roethlisberger's opportunities at the goal line. (and I can see the same thing happening with Weeds and the Browns, preferring to hand off to Richardson down close as opposed to throwing a lot of passes)

I don't think that Roethlisberger is a top 5 QB because of the TD part of the equation, but he's right there in the very next group. He's definitely a top 10 QB.

Take Brady out of the offensive system he's in. Is he still as good? Maybe, maybe not. However, when Brady went down early in 2008, the Pats still finished 11-5. That, to me, said everything about "The Patriot Way" and why it works. Brady himself has talked about that being the key to their success since 2001.

I'm not saying the QB isn't hugely important. It is the most important position on the roster. However, nobody will ever convince me that the systems they run and the coaches that prepare them aren't even more important. Just look at all the great college QBs who either busted in the NFL or weren't even drafted. It's the system.

Bump.

After three weeks, I'm still asking the same question.

I guess after the last 13 years Im still asking this question.

Personally, Im at a loss. We've tried it all and nothing seems to work.

Being opportunist and not being complacent

It starts at the top and trickles down.
You HAVE to have the right team president.
He HAS to bring in a coach and a GM that works well together.
The GM has to get the players for the coach.
The coach has to put it together and make adjustments on gameday while getting the most out of his guys.

Until you have ALL OF THAT working TOGETHER you can have the next Steve Young (remember him in Tampa? Whodathunkit he'd turn out to be the qb he became?) and he's going to look like Vinny Testaverde.
If you want to win, everyone needs to be on the same page.

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Water, Saint, Toad, others ... what would you have done differently?

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Oh Hell, Rish. I had forgotten about this one and never replied. My bad, dude.

It's pretty simple, man. Really, it is.

Year after year after year after year we've had one of two football-ignorant people running this organization, and both of them were named Lerner. They both made the same fatal mistake of putting the wrong people in charge.

What needs to be done now is to fire Holmgren who has never proven he can be a good executive. He has this team in a very bad place, which is totally unacceptable considering this is now three years of his plan. There are some proven people in the organization who have track records of success within their given roles, and only because of that should they receive consideration to being retained. Heckert is a very proven guy, but has had his strings pulled by Holmgren. The first questions that need to be asked by Haslam are whether or not all the moves are Heckerts or Holmgren's. Find out those answers and you can evaluate Heckert better.

If you have good talent evaluators picking out their own players, you'll have a winning organization. If you don't, you don't. It doesn't get any more simplistic than that.

Unless this team starts doing amazingly unexpected things, Holmgren and people loyal to him will have to go. He'd be an amazing coach but he's a below-average executive, and as long as he's in power he's going to play the control-freak. We'll never consistently win with him calling the shots. Sad, but true.

So...you get a new President, one who won't tell the personnel people who to draft, and you go get proven personnel people. I believe we have that guy in Heckert, but I don't know all the facts. Just most of them. His track record speaks for itself.

The WCO is a proven offense that can win in all weather elements and places. I'd keep it and find the right players.

The 4-3 isn't my first choice for defenses, but you can win with it. Just gotta find the right players.

Chilly is a proven WCO coach who knows it well. He may be a guy that's worth keeping.

Jauron is a proven 4-3 coach who knows it well. He may be a guy that's worth keeping.

What we don't have is talent, and that falls on the shoulders of Holmgren. This is his design and these are his results.

I'd then make sure I'm spending some money in free agency. The "youth movement" has failed on the offensive line, at WR, and on key defensive positions. We don't have to break the bank on players, just fill gaps with guys who have proven they are better than the nobodies we have out there now.

It all comes down to talent picked out by proven talent evaluators. We haven't had that for 14 years and we don't have it now. Get the right talent evaluators in place and you'll have talent. Have talent and you'll win. It really is that simple.

I don't know that I can agree with you when you say that we lack talent. What I do think that we lack is experienced talent.

Look at all of the rookies and 2nd year players starting and/or getting regular playing time.

On defense we have Hughes, Winn, and Sheard, (Plus Taylor who is on the PUP) Fort and Robertson at OLB, and Skrine, Wade, Hagg, and Gipson at DB.

We then lost Taylor, and more importantly, our best OLB, Gocong, in the pre-season.

On offense we start and/or regularly play 5 rookies. They are QB, (Weeden) RB, (Richardson) RT, (Schwartz) and WR. (Benjamin and Gordon)

Then we add in 2nd year players like Pinkston, Little, Cameron, and Marecic. (Obviously with mixed results)

That is a ton of very young players making up much of the team. In some cases they have 3 games under their belts. In others they have a year and 3 games under their belts. 19 players who are rookies or 2nd year players are playing significant minutes. That's a LOT. Young, inexperienced player make mistakes. I expect them to improve as the year goes along. I expect the team to improve as the year progresses.

I have no idea what our needs will be by the end of the year. We will have 7 picks in next year's draft .... missing our 2nd, and picking up an undisclosed for Sims. We will have tons of money to spend, if the team chooses to do so. We should have some experienced, young, core players. Hopefully those guys will provide answers and solutions at their positions.

I really think that next year is the target year for true contention, and will be the year where we might make a splash with a big free agent or 2.

If we can establish Weeden as the QB, Richardson as the RB, Cameron as the TE, Schwartz as the RT, and maybe 1 or 2 of the young receivers step it up, then we can address maybe Guard (if necessary by year's end) and WR in free agency. Lotta ifs there, but nothing that is really way out of the question.

On defense, it looks like we have some talented depth on the DL. I think that we have some talent at CB ..... but we definitely need Haden back. When we are able to start Haden and Patterson, then I think that some of the other pieces could fall into place. Heck, maybe we even spend next year's 1st rounder on a shutdown CB to play opposite Haden. That would make our depth really good. We have questions at S, but so do many other teams. Great Safeties are hard to find. Really hard. I don't know how the LB corps will shake out over the rest of the year. One thing seems certain though, youth will gain experience. How they do with that opportunity is still up in the air.

However, we might wind up with a situation in the off-season where we wind up looking for a WR. G, CB, and S. I would think that we could definitely improve those spots between free agency and the draft. We should be able to outbid damn near anyone for a player we really want.

Maybe I'm just so beat up that my brain isn't working anymore, but I really think that we're on the right track. It's frustrating seeing the team lose games that they should win but for a few mistakes. However, I do think that we have some solid talent for once, especially at the most important positions. We also have question marks, but the rest of the season is a great proving ground.

The one thing that I do NOT want to see is another implosion of the roster, with a new beginning, dumping everyone we just picked up. I do not think that this is the path we'll take, even if we switch up the front office and coaching staff. However, I do think that we stand a decent chance of keeping Heckert. I don't know about Shurmur. However, if we keep Heckert, then it is likely that we'll stay in that WCO type genre ...... especially if Banner comes aboard as President.

One thing I do know is that it's too early to make sweeping decisions about this team. With so much youth, and only 3 games in, it's tough to make any real evaluations. I do believe and expect that this team will be significantly improved by the end of the season as our young players gain experience.

Poor play by a poor team.

When you looked at the schedule you thought well maybe this home game.

You have to make plays to earn a win; on offense and on defense.

There is not much to say. Full off season, new big time running back, first round QB, supposedly upgraded receivers, second round RT.

Expectations were for at least improvement, even with the youth of the team.

I am not feeling it. I do not feel they are building, and turning the corner.

You have to start with a QB. For all those who believe Weeden can be "the man". I do not.

I think what you are seeing - is what you will get. He does not have great upside. He is a 29 year old rookie with a strong arm and little else.

My expectations were low and he is fulfilling that expectation.

I hope I am totally wrong but I do not see a guy who I believe will develop into much more than what he is right now.

All teams lose players to injury and a host of other reasons. To win over a sixteen game schedule and beyond you have to have depth. The next guy up has to step in and deliver.

Here it's like we have to have Joe Haden. We have to have Chris Gogong. We have to have Phil Taylor.

The Browns have to get beyond that and find ways to win. Instead of ways to lose and then make excuses.

We have lost 12 of the last 13 games and nine in a row.

With a league designed for parity that is hard to do.

At this rate when the season is over Haslam has nothing to lose. I see another slate wiped clean. As much as I hate the idea you have to demonstrate improvement. You have to win games.