|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Matthew Stafford seemed to enjoy throwing it to Rams players, and if it wasn't for a clock error, Detroit may of never had the final game winning drive attempt..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
Dont you think that the Browns had something to do with the Eagles playing poorly on offense? It was just Michael Vick throwing errantly and Andy Reid trying to lose?
Cmon...We made every effort to take the game away, but the offense couldnt come through. Theres plenty of ways to spin it.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
It's not about the loss per se, and it's certainly not about one loss. There are several misunderstandings about my reasoning, perceptions and intent. I'm simply trying to point out that we have an opportunity here at the changing of the guard.
My main point is, why destroy everything that has been built the past three years? Certain things are working. The youth movement is great. It would seem that the defensive scheme and personnel are working. And the build through the draft policy is certainly the way to go. Heckert has done a fairly admirable job, (though the the trade down giving up Julio Jones and the unwillingness to go after RGIII may be questioned by some in retrospect, including the new ownership,) so it would be nice if he could stay to retain some continuity.
Honestly though, I think it's doubtful Heckert will remain either. I think we're in for another house cleaning, but it may not have to be that way. No one likes to see a coaching change in the middle of the season, but sometimes it's necessary, and sometimes it even works out. Jerry Jones' move to elevate Jason Garret comes to mind.
Like it or not, when Haslam takes over Holmgren is gone. Some may be able to kid themselves into believing Shurmur won't be following him out the door. Don't worry though, you'll get to watch his brand of inept play-calling for at least several more games. Haslam doesn't take over until October so you have at least until then, maybe even the rest of the season before he cans him. But can him he will. If Haslam waits until the season ends, you can practically guarantee a complete turnover. If he makes a head coaching change immediately when he takes over, there may be some hope for retaining at least part of the staff.
Folks can whine & moan all they want about the message at the beginning of this thread, but change is coming. Those who believe we need to ride this out and see what happens are merely prolonging the agony. Even in the off chance the current regime manages to stick out the season and puts together a handful or a half dozen wins, it's all coming apart at the end of the year. Make the changes now, when Haslam takes office, and there may be a shot at retaining some of the things that are working, with the bonus possibility of actually winning more than just a few games. Wait until the end of the year and not only will our record be abysmal, we'll be starting over from scratch to boot.
JMHO
Last edited by CalDawg; 09/11/12 07:39 PM.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,083
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,083 |
Quote:
That's tough to take.
You know... it was for me, too- for about 90 minutes. Those doldrums used to last well into Tuesday.
At the end of TC, I took a long look at the roster, and concluded than many of these young guys were definite upgrades from the "meatsacks in uniform" they replaced, but only in potential. In other words: just because they grade out as being potentially better, doesn't meant that they'll be immediately better.
Although it had a "here we go again" type of feel to it, this one somehow bothered me less. I called it just before the last Philly scoring drive, and so I wasn't really surprised when it shook out the way it did. I guess it's a matter of perspective- short-term or long-term.
Do I think this team sucked rocks through a straw Sunday? You bet.
Do I think they'll swallow more rocks before this season is over? MosDef.
Do I think they have the potential to be really good in a year or two? Yes- on one condition: that this core gets built upon instead of getting blown up.
Weedz is gonna blow games for us. When he's on, some other rook will. It's the nature of the game, when a team of kids play a seasoned opponent. Like I said in a previous thread, I can't let the final score (or even how we earned the final score) effect my mental health this year- Rookies and Sophomores haven't yet earned that degree of loyalty from me. THAT'S what this year is for, AFAIC.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,083
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,083 |
I like your spin.
I think Philly was surprised the the speed and intensity with which our D came at them. They had a game plan that we were blowing up. I had to listen to the game, so I didn't have a chance to watch body language, but it seemed that Vick was rattled for quite a bit of the game.
When they started to feed Shady is when they began taking back the control. Even then, they could never put the game out of reach. They made adjustments on O that worked just well enough. We have an O that can't be adjusted until it becomes an O.
I think Jauron has these guys playing about as well as he can, considering the circumstances, and they'll only get better. Chilly got his work cut out for him. Expect the D to keep us in SOME games, and (at least for awhile) expect our O to lurch along, with a couple "highlight" plays per game.
But- yes, WE played.... and then THEY played. The difference in the game was experience, pure and simple. Their O found a way to score a TD when they needed it- our O could only mange to get us "Phil Time."
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
Heckert has done a fairly admirable job, (though the the trade down giving up Julio Jones and the unwillingness to so after RGIII may be questioned by some in retrospect, including the new ownership,)
Do you have a link for the underlined?
Didn't we offer the #4, #22, and 1st rounder next year?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Yes we did. And it was kind of a silent auction with only one bid (from what we've heard).
We put in our bid, the Redskins bid was better. We didn't have a chance to make a better offer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
Quote:
Heckert has done a fairly admirable job, (though the the trade down giving up Julio Jones and the unwillingness to so after RGIII may be questioned by some in retrospect, including the new ownership,)
Do you have a link for the underlined?
Didn't we offer the #4, #22, and 1st rounder next year?
We'll never really know if we could have gotten him or not, I know what was said, I also know that buckets of B.S. are shoveled out in pressers after the fact. I personally felt the price (at the time) was too high and I'm not saying I question the decision (assuming there was a decision) to pass, just that it could be questioned as part of an overall questioning (in retrospect) of making the right moves to put the team in a position to win. But in any case, way to miss the point. Nicely done. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 582
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 582 |
Quote:
I mean I really kind of expected Philly to kill us. I had a 40 to 3 type of feeling going into that game.
Me too. The problem is, suddenly if our offense can do ANYTHING (say convert the Greg Little INT to the TD it should have been), we win an "un-winnable" game. And as everybody saw, Weeden was close to a bust yesterday. Heck even i said if he can just get us 7-14 points a game more, we would win more games. Now it looks like he's gonna COST us 7-14 points a game...!
We are so close...and we are so frustrated...and Shurmer looks more and more like a short timer (esp in his pressers) , ownership change or not...why cant we just do common sense things like go for two? when will it end?
Thats my rant.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 125
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 125 |
Quote:
Quote:
I mean I really kind of expected Philly to kill us. I had a 40 to 3 type of feeling going into that game.
Me too. The problem is, suddenly if our offense can do ANYTHING (say convert the Greg Little INT to the TD it should have been), we win an "un-winnable" game. And as everybody saw, Weeden was close to a bust yesterday. Heck even i said if he can just get us 7-14 points a game more, we would win more games. Now it looks like he's gonna COST us 7-14 points a game...!
We are so close...and we are so frustrated...and Shurmer looks more and more like a short timer (esp in his pressers) , ownership change or not...why cant we just do common sense things like go for two? when will it end?
Thats my rant.
Listen a loss is a loss. By a point or by 50, in December when they have 12 losses who cares which one's were close. Common sense things like going for 2...That can't happen. Because it's not common sense. The only thing we know works is Dawson's leg. I don't believe they would have converted that 2pc with the way theywere playing...
Secondly...
It's not a "suddenly" issue for Cleveland's offense. They've been historically bad. Year after year...
McCoy doesn't have the ability to be franchise QB. He can probably steal a few games if the D shows up like that week after week. However, that's not going to happen. Andy Reid laid an egg in that game and his ego got in the way he managed that game, and they played undisciplined football generating drive killing penalties. Everything went in the Browns favor except their offense. Cleveland is backed against a wall. They got a soon to be 29 y/o QB who is a rookie who was supposed to be starter ready. He was GIVEN the job. But, he isn't ready. This is a young team so it's best to just let Weeden go to see if he improves and NEVER does what he did on Sunday again... or see if he will just be # 13 on that dreaded list of QB's since 1999 . . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
I don't doubt change is coming, but as you cleared up, you initial post sounded a lot more like a complete blow up.
I agree with some of your assessments, but I disagree on Heckert, I think they keep him. Shurmur my guess is gone unless he pulls out a miracle turn around this year, and I bet Childress or Jauron are offered the position, I doubt they offer it to Holmgren, and even if they did, I highly doubt he would accept.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
you initial post sounded a lot more like a complete blow up.
I would just say, go back and read it again.
I don't want Heckert to go, I just think it's a high probability in the wake of a FO house cleaning. I really do hope he can work with Banner and that he wants Heckert to stay.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
you initial post sounded a lot more like a complete blow up.
I would just say, go back and read it again.
OK...but you asked... 
Quote:
Holmgren is a lame duck, for all intents and purposes he's gone. Yay. That's a start.
Pretty much agree..
Quote:
Next, fire Shurmur. Don't wait, do it now. (Or as soon as is administratively possible, say the day after Haslam takes over.)
Tell me this isn't knee jerk? How often has a NFL coached been fired mid-season, much less after the first game of the season. Yes you put in the adminstrative clause, but your first few words indicate you wanted it done at 5pm last Sunday.
Quote:
Keep Dick Jauron and his defensive scheme in tact, promote him to interim head coach and retain Childress as the OC and make him the play caller.
Keep Tom Heckert as GM.
No problems here other than the coorelation to firing Shurmur.
Quote:
Sit Weeden, start McCoy. McCoy doesn't have to light it up, he just has to not lose the games. Let Weeden learn on the sidelines. If McCoy is not getting it done by the bye, put Weeden back in. If McCoy gets hurt, he'll get his shot.
Again, knee jerk? 1 game, bench him. I don't agree with throwing him in as starter right away, but it's done, at this point we ride this train til the next stop.
Quote:
This is not an endorsement of McCoy, or intended to start a debate about his arm strÒngth or accuracy. Weeden may have a stronger arm. He may be more accurate. He may be more mature and have a shorter memory (though this is debatable,) but one thing he is not, and that is READY. He's not ready, he hasn't been ready, and he won't be ready by next week. It was a mistake to simply hand him the job, but because of the major hole Shurmer & Homgren dug, they are stuck with the decision. Without them, there's no pile of crap we have to eat, we can reset and put things back in line.
Goes back to the previous comment.
Quote:
These suggestions may not be the ultimate solutions, but they would be a start.
Gentlemen, start your whinegins.
Then you end with a derogatory sentence that will usually be taken as "your opinion is fact, and everyone else is just a whiny tree-hugging ostrich."
That's how I read your post. Whether you meant it like that or not, it is how I read it. That's the thing about text, without the facial expression and vocal tone, all we have is sentence structure and wording to determine the "attitude" of a post, and your started off as a "rant"
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
your first few words indicate you wanted it done at 5pm last Sunday.
All of this needs to be taken in the context of when Haslam takes office.
Quote:
Again, knee jerk? 1 game, bench him. I don't agree with throwing him in as starter right away, but it's done, at this point we ride this train til the next stop.
Again, none of these changes could or would possibly take effect until Haslam takes office. We know Shurnur won't and even can't bench Weeden yet, he's simply in too deep. It was a mistake handing over the starting job with no real competition to begin with, but since he did, he (and we) are stuck with it. On a positive note, he can't get much worse.
Quote:
Then you end with a derogatory sentence that will usually be taken as "your opinion is fact, and everyone else is just a whiny tree-hugging ostrich."
I get what you're saying, but it wasn't derogatory, it was a joke. Everybody on this board is a whiner, including me. I'll simply say this: Everything I post is JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
you initial post sounded a lot more like a complete blow up.
I would just say, go back and read it again.
I don't want Heckert to go, I just think it's a high probability in the wake of a FO house cleaning. I really do hope he can work with Banner and that he wants Heckert to stay.
honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think there will be a major sweep. especially with Haslam stepping down at Pilot.
the least disruptive plan I could see him doing would be:
keep Heckert.
promote Jauron to HC, promote Rhodes to DC.
fire the entire offensive staff and find a different WCO staff. If Philly spits the bit, Morhinweg is my choice (and so I'm cheering for Philly to spit the bit).
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I have no idea what is going to happen with the FO.
I don't understand how people can speculate about it. There is simply no knowing what is going to happen right now.
It boils down to whether you like the FO or not; and then making up stories about what could happen.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Dont you think that the Browns had something to do with the Eagles playing poorly on offense? It was just Michael Vick throwing errantly and Andy Reid trying to lose?
Cmon...We made every effort to take the game away, but the offense couldnt come through. Theres plenty of ways to spin it.
I think that if it is our plan to give up 500 yards of offense every week and count on 120 penalty yards and 5 turnovers to keep us from getting blown out, that its going to be a long season.
I thought the defense played... opportunistic... that's the best word I can think of. They did what they had to do to put us in a position to win... but really, how often does a team throw 4 interceptions on offense and give up 500 yards on defense and it takes a late score just for the other team to get to 17 points? Not very often.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
promote Jauron to HC
Do you realize that Jauron has 1 winning season in 8 complete years as a head coach and parts of 2 others? If this team brings in a new coach, I don't want a guy who's a proven failure. I'm not saying I want to keep hiring new guys who prove failure here, but I think Jauron is a terrible head coach.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
I don't understand how people can speculate about it. There is simply no knowing what is going to happen right now.
well, we should just shut down the board now then 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I thought the defense played... opportunistic... that's the best word I can think of.
Agreed.
They were flying around and on the surface it looked like they were having a great day, but once the Eagles decided to abandon their pass-first mentality and committed to running the ball, they wrecked us. There's no reason to believe that teams won't be able to continue to do to us what they've done for pretty much the last decade: Run the ball down our throats.
The Eagles are notorious for passing and passing and passing some more, even when the situation doesn't dictate it. They seemed to do that again last week, right up until they realized the good old fashioned way of pounding us into the dirt was the way to go.
Sure, we could have stolen that game. We should have. But we didn't. We won't have that opportunity very often this year. We'll win some close games but for the most part, well...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
promote Jauron to HC
Do you realize that Jauron has 1 winning season in 8 complete years as a head coach and parts of 2 others? If this team brings in a new coach, I don't want a guy who's a proven failure. I'm not saying I want to keep hiring new guys who prove failure here, but I think Jauron is a terrible head coach.
That was my thought as well. I won't pass judgement on whether or not Jauron would or would not be a decent HC.. but to make the assumption that just because he is a very good, creative DC that 1. Our defense wouldn't change when he moved to head coach and a new DC was brought in or that 2. He would be equally effective as a HC... are both a stretch.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Ya know what...there is a way to, at least partially, go for a quick-fix and right the ship right now.
Jake Scott, a guard who wanted more money than what was offered in free agency, is sitting out there waiting for a call. He has started every game for the Titans and Colts over the last seven seasons.
Sure, it would take him a couple of weeks to get up to speed on our terminology, but by week 4 he'd be a legit starting guard, which is something better than what we're marching out there right now.
Of course that's a pipe-dream, but if we're going to ask a question that is highly improbable to answer, I'm going to offer whatever answer I can give, however improbable it may be. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
It's not like we don't have the $$$. Can a question be improbable to answer? 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference is that the vast majority of those teams which struggle do so because they aren't playing to their level of talent and/or experience. This Browns team was ranked as lowly as it was because we don't carry the same level of talent as the rest of the league.
I like to think it is as much to do with Coaching, scheme, level of game preparedness(gameplanning), ability to handle the stress of decision making during the game, as a total package, amoung other things, and teamwork... that separates the Browns from the perenial division winners.
Not level of talent, of individual players.
( Much like my inability to construct a written post, compares to the well written one by others, doesn't change whether I have a point, or mean the individual words are better, or worse. )
For intstance, I think the Pats have for a long time overachieved their talent level because of little things like getting the player to a spot where the defense is vulnerable and all of a sudden he's wide open and has a clear passing lane. I think the Steelers overachieve with lesser talent, in alot of areas like the current wideouts and offensive line compared to what alot of teams they regularly beat have.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,139
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,139 |
Quote:
I think the Steelers overachieve with lesser talent, in alot of areas like the current wideouts and offensive line compared to what alot of teams they regularly beat have.
Their Oline has been absolutely putrid for the last 2 seasons. Cripe, we sacked BR 8 times in one game with backups and practice squad players.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
I think the Steelers overachieve with lesser talent, in alot of areas like the current wideouts and offensive line compared to what alot of teams they regularly beat have.
Their Oline has been absolutely putrid for the last 2 seasons. Cripe, we sacked BR 8 times in one game with backups and practice squad players.
I think that is his point. They overacheive, somehow with that Oline they went 12-4.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
I think we're going to hard with all this talk...
the way to right the ship is to go battle and get a win this week. Go get one, work as hard as you can to go get a win. We played this team level two games last year, and we've improved, the only thing theyve improved in my opinion is their WR corps...and that may not show itself for a year.
Their D may have regressed in talent, losing some of their secondary and only getting Terrence Newman as a new CB and a couple other small pieces.
Go get a win
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 989
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 989 |
Didnt they get kirpatrick and picked up a safety in FA and draft?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
Yes, but with the guys that they lost, they arent necessarily upgrades at this point. They lost Joseph before and Kirkpatrick kinda gets them back, and I dont think he's been ready yet. He didn't play Monday I dont think either...I feel like he's hurt.
As for thier safeties...There just isnt a huge upgrade from what they had.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
Their secondary has looked horrible and kirkpartrick is out for sunday. They are getting beat over the top.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
The Ravens beat the Cincy defense via a uptempo no huddle offense.
to go up top successfully in most cases,you have to be able to establish the run and then go play action. You hope the safety and CB bites and by that time its to late for them to recover.
I see the Browns interior o-line having issues with Peko,Atkins and that steady rotation.
Pinkston and Lauvoa still look overmatched most of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
I have yet to be convinced you're not a Bengals fan.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How do we right the ship? Not
next year, right now.
|
|
![[Linked Image from dcptest.com]](http://www.dcptest.com/kelly64.jpg)
