DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Bud Shaw: Weeden deserves a much longer look

What a shock that Brandon Weeden isn't Andrew Luck.

Who knew, other than pretty much everyone?

When the Browns look full speed ahead at next year, no one in that draft is likely to be Andrew Luck, either.

New Browns CEO Joe Banner says the organization has to find out whether Weeden can take the team where it needs to go, preferably by the end of this season.

You might suggest "up" as a sufficient direction for now given Weeden's inexperience and that of other key players on offense. And you might well conclude that progress is happening, slowly and painfully.

Banner understandably desires to find the "great" quarterback and team him with the "great" coach to take the Browns to a championship -- as he told The Plain Dealer that ". . . two years from now, when we're trying to be a championship-caliber team, is he good enough to lead us there?"

Here's when you're likely to know that. The end of 2013 at the earliest.

This hope for the overnight ripening of franchise quarterbacks throughout the NFL is -- despite the efforts and smarts of so many qualified people -- the stuff of Magic 8 balls and Ouija boards.

Is Phillip Rivers good enough to win a championship? You'd have said so a few years ago. Now? Meh.

Jay Cutler? Sam Bradford? Matthew Stafford?

Did Cam Newton look better last year or this season?

It takes a lot more than 16 games to know, and even then answers are elusive on all except a chosen few.

We already suspected Weeden isn't Luck or Robert Griffin III. He wasn't drafted as if he were, and it wasn't only because of his relatively advanced age that he slipped out of the Top 10.

What we have seen is a quarterback who can make all the throws and who has looked confident more often than shaky. And who operates best when -- get this -- plays get called on time.

That's not enough to totally close out any discussion of replacing him next year. But it's enough for me to say the exact wrong thing to do would be to give up on this kind of size and arm without giving him time.

The arrival of Jimmy Haslam III and Banner is bound to bring big changes in the organization. But how much change is too much change?

Any attempt to run Weeden off and take another quarterback at the top of the draft would qualify.

He has played nine games. Charlie Frye started 19.

You know how you find out about a quarterback who's played nine games? Get him to 16 and then 32 without looking back or second-guessing the decision to draft him -- unless he suddenly reverts back to fumbling every time he hears "boo."

Weeden corrected his fumbling issues quickly and hasn't returned to the dark side, albeit with the benefit of pretty good pass protection.

He bounced back impressively from his worst game of the season -- the opener against Philadelphia. At Dallas next Sunday is his opportunity to rebound from his confused day against Baltimore.

You can say all bets are off under Banner and Haslam, that they have no ties to the current regime and its decisions. The current regime, though, is stock full of coaches who supposedly know quarterbacks. Joe Banner may watch film, but that should count for something.

Taking a 29-year-old quarterback in the first round and reaching quick conclusions on him is bad business for a football organization.

I'm not sure anybody the Browns could draft next year would be ready to lead a championship team on Banner's timetable. And nobody is looking to trade you a playoff-caliber quarterback.

Are there issues with Weeden? Sure. Not a great amount of football instinct on display at times. Then again we have no idea of the limitations put on him by the coaching staff.

The Browns have seen enough of his arm to know he can make all the throws. That's only part of it, of course, but it's not a small part in the NFL.

No doubt he's making Pat Shurmur's play calling look bad at times, just as I'm sure Shurmur and offensive coordinator Brad Childress aren't helping him when the advanced hieroglyphics they're calling reaches him with only a few ticks on the play clock.

Nine games needs to become 16 to become 32.

Given the tools Weeden presents, it's the only way to find out -- especially if next year brings a different coaching staff and offensive philosophy.

Of course, if a new coach installs the option, Weeden's gotta go.

Short of that, the worst you can say is he's looked like most rookies.

Not named Andrew Luck. (or Robert Griffin III or Russell Wilson)

Weeden: 185 of 336 (55%) 2088 yards 6.21 yards per attempt 9 TD's 12 INT's 1 fumble QBR: 19.9 Rating 67.9 (64 rushing yards)

Luck: 208 of 362 (57.5%) 2631 yards 7.27 yards per attempt 10 TD's 9 INT's 7 fumbles QBR: 77.6 Rating 79.1 (159 rushing yards)

Griffin: 172 of 262 (65.6%) 1993 yards 7.61 yards per attempt 8 TD's 3 INT's 2 fumbles QBR: 68.7 Rating 93.9 (529 rushing yards)

Tannehill: 165 of 280 (58.9%) 1979 yards 7.07 yards per attempt 5 TD's 9 INT's 3 fumbles QBR: 49 Rating 73.2 (23 rushing yards)

Russell Wilson: 157 of 253 (62.1%) 1827 yards 7.22 yards per attempt 15 TD's 8 INT's 3 fumbles QBR: 56.1 Rating 90.5 (189 rushing yards)

Just bored...

you gotta give him another year.. unless he just completely.. and I mean COMPLETELY falls apart the rest of the season.. which I doubt.

I have to agree, I think giving up on Weeden after this season would do more negative than positive. He's given this offense some signs of life, and in spite of his age, I think that not giving him another season to prove he is or is not the guy is neglible. I can understand Haslem/Banner wanting to distance themselves from everything and anything that had to do with what Mike Holmgren did here (except for Trent Richardson... Greg Little and Josh Gordon, and a hand full of other young up-and-comers) but Weeden should not be someone that they give up on.

The numbers to date are irrelevant. Weeden's continued performance may be as well. If Haslam & Co. feel that Weeden is not the guy AND the guy they want is in this draft, they'll likely go get him. Kick, cry, scream, stomp your feet and shout, "It's not fair!" It won't make one whit of difference. Weeden will be out, new guy in. EOS

A few points:

1) Weeden will need to play lights out for the rest of the season for them to not at least consider drafting a high pick QB.

2) There must be a QB in the draft that they feel meets their needs in the long run in order for them to consider replacing Weeden.

3) If the conditions of point two are not met, Weeden most likely gets another year.

As I've said several times, when I've seen Luck play (only a couple times), he's made some very silly rookie mistakes, too. Let's not just look at stats or headlines and assume he's been absolutely perfect. Granted, he is extremely talented and looks like he's going to be a great one. But he's not infallible.

As for Weeden, outside of some of the seemingly-know-it-alls on this board, is there really anyone with any kind of real knowledge who thinks that Weeden is on a short leash? I mean, seriously?

Has he struggled at times? Heck yeah. Has he disappointed us at times? Heck yeah. However, has he also done good things? Heck yeah.

JMHO

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As for Weeden, outside of some of the seemingly-know-it-alls on this board, is there really anyone with any kind of real knowledge who thinks that Weeden is on a short leash? I mean, seriously?

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I think there's a fear that he's on a short leash and playing for his job. That's born of the knowledge that Haslam has and will make big changes. When you get a new owner you get new people, so it's natural there's a fear that Weeden won't get to stick.

It's unfortunate to say this, but I do think that the QB's in this draft factor in to the decision.

If Andrew Luck were coming out this year, and we had the #1 pick, that's a totally different set of considerations than if we had the #1 pick and the only guy sitting on the board is Barkley. Luck is a generational guy while Barkley is as likely to be the next Mark Sanchez as anyone else. Geno Smith? Meh. There isn't a rock-star QB in this draft, and that plays to Weeden's favor.

This is part of the problem when you decide to reach and take a QB who will be 30 in his 2nd season.

I'm not sold on Weeden. He, like Tannehill, is a developmental guy, his advanced age be damned. To me, he's shown enough moments to justify more time, even though he's also shown enough D'oh! moments to make you question if he's the guy. Unfortunately, because of his age, he will be on a shorter leash than most. That's part of the huge gamble we made when we took an old guy as a rook.

In the end I think it's a good thing for Weeden that there isn't that absolute stud coming out this year. He may have gotten more time regardless but he was never in the same class as Luck or RG3 and that made him vulnerable if he didn't come right in and light things up. He hasn't done that, but he also hasn't flopped. The opportunity for a new regime to pick "their guy" at the QB position is there, but I'm not so sure the available talent coming out of college is.

I certainly understand the "fear." I think that applies to all the players and the coaches/front office. You're right, when you have a new regime come in, you expect changes.

I guess I was speaking more toward people who have him on a short leash because of his very rookie-like performances at times. Then again, they'd be the same people who would have been wanting to chase Luck out of town when he had a clunker of a game or threw his first interception.

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Weeden: 185 of 336 (55%) 2088 yards 6.21 yards per attempt 9 TD's 12 INT's 1 fumble QBR: 19.9 Rating 67.9 (64 rushing yards)

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Can someone figure out Weedens stats minus the first game?
I would think that would give us a better of example of how he rates with the other qbs.

Heck if some one has the time can you figure out the stats of each rookie qb minus their worst game.

anyone think that Haslam and Banner (two of the decision makers now) like Colt McCoy?

just asking? not trying to start a riot.. lol.

It'd be bad enough if the 2 new squirrelly guys at the top clean house on the coaching AND scouting front, but if they waste a pick to draft a QB on day 1 or 2 coming April, that's all any fan with half a brain needs to know....that it is about EGO and not the bst of the franchise....

There's absolutely no way to know about Weeden FOR SURE one way or the other and he has shown enough flashes and overall game development to warrant more time...any new guy taking over the Browns worth anything should be able to see that, so if they don't they're either incompetent or vanity is at work, pick your poison

No, you can't say "he isnt our guy"...it's simply impossible to come to this conclusion after watching him progress in those games after week 1. So if anyone should come to this conclusion, he's either stupid or wants a virgin wife, or both

On top of that, they'd pretty much be happy to throw away a 1st rounder after only 1 season....that's stupid enough.

If they are stupid enough to really draft a QB high (ok with day 3 pick...McCoy will be gone after 2013), I'd def be out even before the 1st snap...you can happily quote me on that, as I probably won't even read anything on here anymore

Banner's comment alone was moronic btw...hey rat face, you dont know crap about football to make a decision like that, so how about you stfu

I think Weeden's only had two outright BAD games. Other than that he's been solid. Take away those two games and were not even having this discussion.

That's what irks me too...you just don't MAKE comments like that if you REALLY care about this year's team, which they obviously don't. So much for evaluating everyone AFTER the season...yeah, right....They're acting like elephants in a chinaware shop...from their first moment they got their feet in. It's disgusting...they can't wait to start playing with THEIR new toy and they give a buck about any value or development accomplished in the past 1 and a half seasons...as a fan I feel betrayed. Why did we watch those 20+ games then? Why should we watch the next 7 if coaching staff, FO and even QB get replaced after 20-25 freaking games?

Banner's comment also implied that Heckert would be gone btw, after all he said HE and Jimmy will make that call on Weeden, so where's Heckert in that equation? Yeah, gone...so much for "evaluating everyone" after the season part 2

They're already 0fer in doing things they say they would do....back to Mangini double talk, saying one smart thing and then do the opposite outsmart other, which more often is pretty moronic than clever...but, but he found Reid and he's so much smarter than the rest of the world.

Anybody else NOT seeing the same EGOS at work here? Mangini loved to talk about his time with Belly, Banner obviously is proud about Reid...but the truth is that they both got hushed out by those same guys they love to bring up when trying to make themselves look better in what they do and don't have much respect in the NFL world....why do those losers ALWAYS land with a job with the Browns?

"Act like you've been there before" should also count for Coaches and FO people...

I have to say watching the Browns with Weeden is a whole lot more fun than 75% of the years we've seen since the reboot.

I enjoy watching the Browns now.

Overall I'm just a little mixed. I have to say the sissification of the NFL is wearing on me a little bit. The "strikezone" on the QB. Not being able to break up a post route without a flag. It's a little tiresome seeing those hankies out there.

But I still enjoy it.

I'll just toss a monkey wrench in the works here. If I were a hot-shot NFL executive and knew I needed some serious talent infusion on draft day then I might be inclined to lie like a dog to the sporting press about everything and anything to drive up the value of my upcoming first round pick. Even if Banner has a picture of Weeden hanging over the mantel of his fireplace at home he should probably not tip his hand too early. Shoot, I've been lied to so much over the years about the team and where it was heading I almost expect it.

Even if they plan on starting Weeden next year they should keep their yaps shut until after draft day. You never know what might come up.

Or they may think that Weeden is a bum and are ready to kick him to the curb. Who knows? All I know is nothing should be sacred in Berea come January.

I'm not concerned who likes him or doesn't.
He is better than the other QB's we've had in this stable over the years, plus it's only been 9 games .
He's made the rookie mistakes, but I see a lot of upside in him ,something I haven't seen since Couch. And he was limited in what he could do.
DA would be similar but he really had no football IQ so he wasn't going to get better.

So when you buy a new house, I'm sure that instead of debating wall color, changing fixtures, updating appliances, re-doing landscaping, etc. you say "The people who sold us this house spent 3 years of their time decorating it, I'll give their pink floral wallpaper a year before I decide whether I really like it or not."

After this year, they'll have seen 16 starts from a QB turning 30 next year. Colt got 21. Frye got 19. Quinn got 12. If they want to make a judgment about Weeden after this year, it's their right. The LAST thing I want to do is have Haslam/Banner come in, keep someone else's guys around and delay implementing their plan for another year. Holmgren did that with Mangini... how well did that work out? And this...

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On top of that, they'd pretty much be happy to throw away a 1st rounder after only 1 season....that's stupid enough.

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...tells me you don't understand the concept of a sunk cost. Weeden is not a 1st rounder anymore. We cannot trade Weeden to get a 1st rounder back. Weeden is a QB on the roster. The pick spent on Weeden is long gone and very likely, the guys who drafted him will be too. If they leave, his draft spot will mean even LESS than it does now. Was Tebow a 1st rounder when Denver traded him to the Jets for a 4th or just a mediocre QB?

Simply put, I'm glad they're evaluating Weeden and they should evaluate everyone else too. If we're in a position to take a QB that we feel is a significant upgrade to Weeden and we don't because Weeden is on the roster, THEN we're being stupid. Haslam and Banner are going to build things their way and Haslam is going to be around for a long time. That means evaluation for everyone. That means change. More than likely, that means new players. Quite frankly, if you're not ready for that or willing to accept that, you're about to be sorely disappointed.

LOL

Yes, let's draft a big question mark to replace a question mark. There's no Andrew Luck in this draft.

So let's just promote that the new regime take a huge gamble on a draft pick not worthy of a top 5 and set up the excuse machine in advance.

IMO Weeden has shown enough to get another year.

So with that said, Go with Weeden for at least the next two years, and then if he's not a top 5-10 QB leading your team, you can draft and bring along a young guy to replace him.

What's wrong with that?

Browns want Weeden to cut down on interceptions

By TOM WITHERS (AP Sports Writer) | The Associated Press – 14 hours ago

BEREA, Ohio (AP) -- The numbers aren't good, at least not good enough. Brandon Weeden doesn't need anyone to tell him that.

The Browns rookie quarterback doesn't have to scan his statistics to know he has to play better. He's well aware that he's thrown too many interceptions, won too few games and has yet to convince Cleveland owner Jimmy Haslam and new CEO Joe Banner that he's the franchise's future.

Weeden understands he must improve. Just don't bother bringing it up.

''I'm not a moron,'' he said.

Following a bye week to rest his arm, relax his body and mentally block out the bad stuff from the season's first nine games, Weeden said Wednesday that he's determined to play at a higher level and lead the Browns to some victories in their last seven games.

Maybe because he's 29, Weeden isn't always viewed as a rookie, which may explain some of the criticism about his game.

''I think lost in all of this is that I'm a rookie,'' he said. ''I'm still playing teams for the first time. I'm still seeing things for the first time. I'm making a lot of mistakes that I'm making for the first time. I'm trying not to repeat them. But I'm not a nine or 10-year veteran.

''Some people might lose track of that sometimes. But it is what it is. I've got to play better. I've got to do my part to help this team win.''

And taking better care of the football should be his top priority.

Before practice, Browns coach Pat Shurmur made it clear there is one aspect of Weeden's game that needs immediate attention.

''Don't throw interceptions,'' he said. ''Done. End story. I want to be right to the point.''

Point taken.

Weeden has thrown 12 interceptions, tied for the NFL's second-highest total. The only QB to throw more picks is Dallas' Tony Romo, who will match up against Weeden on Sunday when the Browns (2-7) visit the Cowboys (4-5) looking to end an 11-game road losing streak.

Weeden concurred with Shurmur's candid and curt assessment that he needs to be smart with the football.

''That's kind of been my priority since I played Pee-Wee football,'' Weeden said. ''We never want to throw interceptions. My aggressive manor and mindset sometimes gets me in trouble. I'm not going to take that away from myself.

''I have to take care of the football. I have to cut down on them. I think guys that are aggressive like that, sometimes that's one category they unfortunately may have a couple more than they'd like. It's not good, but we're just being aggressive. Sometimes, making that aggressive throw, sometimes it catapults you and gets you momentum. You get a big throw and kind of spark a drive or something. I agree with him.''

The Browns' game before their bye was testament to Shurmur's evaluation of Weeden, who has completed 185 of 336 passes (55 percent) for 2,088 yards and nine touchdowns.

Weeden threw two interceptions during a 25-15 loss to Baltimore. Those miscues weren't particularly costly, but he failed to get the Browns into the end zone despite five possessions inside the Ravens' 20-yard line. There were some who theorized that Weeden played too cautiously in the red zone, perhaps because he was afraid to throw a pick with Ravens safety Ed Reed lurking.

Did the gunslinger get gun shy?

Weeden said he took what the Ravens gave him.

''If you go watch the tape, no one was open,'' he said. ''I made smart decisions down there. We were in the red zone and the balls I did throw, I did check down. Windows were small, but if I throw a pick there, you guys are asking me the same questions.

Weeden and Shurmur have discussed his decision making and interceptions, but it hasn't been a major point of emphasis during their talks.

''It's just common knowledge between the both of us, we know you can't turn the ball over,'' he said. ''It's in my forefront, but I don't let it get to the front of my mind, where I'm so paranoid about throwing interceptions that I don't take shots.''

Unable to work out a trade to move up and draft Robert Griffin III, the Browns selected Weeden with the No. 22 overall pick in April's draft. They ignored his age, dismissed the fact that he rarely took a snap under center in college and banked on him filling a position that has been unresolved for years.

Shurmur believes Weeden can become an ''outstanding player'' and to do that he needs ''to lead us to victories and don't throw interceptions.''

That will happen once Weeden starts making better choices.

''I've looked at all of those interceptions and there are times when he could've made better decisions,'' Shurmur said. ''There's, of course, things that have happened where a ball bounces off a guy's chest. So you look at all of those things. You don't want to play anxious football, but you also have to be smart.''

Last week, Banner said he and Haslam will use the rest of the season to decide if Weeden is indeed Cleveland's long-term answer at quarterback. If there wasn't enough pressure on Weeden already, Banner raised the heat level a few degrees.

Weeden, though, isn't sweating it. He's doesn't feel as if he's under fire.

''I would've expected him to say that,'' he said. ''They're taking over this organization and they're going to do the moves to help this team win and I obviously want to be the guy that they have a lot of confidence in going forward and I've got to play like it.

''I've got to go play well and keep the team growing and keep the team making better plays and let the rest kind of take care of itself.''

"In the end I think it's a good thing for Weeden that there isn't that absolute stud coming out this year. He may have gotten more time regardless but he was never in the same class as Luck or RG3 and that made him vulnerable if he didn't come right in and light things up. He hasn't done that, but he also hasn't flopped. The opportunity for a new regime to pick "their guy" at the QB position is there, but I'm not so sure the available talent coming out of college is."

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Unfortunately I have to agree.

How unfair: Peyton Manning comes out the year before we get the first pick.

Then last year the Rams win 2 games. One of those games is against the Saints. If they loss that game there is good chance Andrew Luck plays in Cleveland.

Now here we are again 2012 with Branden Weeden. More than likely we end up with a top five pick and really there is not a guy who compares to Luck or Manning in the draft.

At this point: I believe the Browns need to build their defense.

The reality on Weeden is: We just do not know if he has "it". No matter how much we would like to know. You can not push the process. Weeden has the physical tool set. The part of his game that is in question can only be revealed with experience. Will he learn and grow? The answer to that question will probably take through next season to determine.

He could regress and flunk out the rest of the season. He could get better and show great progress. But the most likely scenario is he develops slowly and learns a little each game he plays.

Given the youth of the offense and the stage where Weeden is at I believe the off season emphasis and the fastest path to respectability is to develop the defense.

The D-line has good young starting tackles in Rubin and Taylor. Sheard has play making rush skills of the end. Billy Winn was a terrific find. He can rotate at tackle. In addition they are working him at DE. He has the speed and quickness to play DE. Parker, Hughes, Kitchen, and Rucker are all serviceable guys.

A Sheard bookend DE with mad pass rush skills would be a good add. First round thought.

Linebackers: Jackson is in a place as the leader. JMJ is developing. Gocong is decent. Maiava is undersized and really is a depth guy. Need a impact guy here. I'm talking like Clay Mathews or Von Miller. First round consideration has to be Jarvis Jones.

DB's: We need another Haden. We have to find a good corner. This could be in the draft or free agency.

The defense has the core to be really good. You play good consistent defense - you have a chance to win every week.
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The only add to the offense that I believe should be addressed in free agency is a veteran receiver. A guy in the mold of Reggie Wayne, or Marquis Colston. A precise route runners who can catch and help mentor Gordon and Little.
MoMass is a lost cause. He should be cut.

The offense is young and hopefully will develop. We know we can run. We hope to be able to pass the ball and catch it.

The old adage "defense wins championships" may be a stretch with today's passing game. However, if your defense is top five ranked and you can really get after the quarterback you can still win a lot of games.

I'd say that as long as Weeden continues to grow and improve over the 2nd half of this season, there's no way that he ISN'T the guy.

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I personally don't think Banner and Haslam have any affinity for Weeden

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why does anyone think that? they never said it

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I believe the last game of this season will be the last game for Weeden as a Brown.

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There are some QB starved teams, but they will all be at the bottom of the draft where they can grab a guy like Barkley, Smith, or Bray.

Why would someone trade for Weeden?

If no one would, why would we cut him?

I can see people criticizing Weeden's last game, but the San Diego game was played in horrific conditions. Rivers went 18-34 for only 154 yards against us in that game ..... an amazing 4.53 yards/attempt .... and he threw no TDs. (also no INT) That's 90 yards below his per game average, and almost 3 yards below his average yards/pass attempt. (7.34)

Weeden had a rough game against Baltimore.There's no way around that. However, the coaches have to do everything they can to help prepare him for what teams will do against them, and also to get the plays in so that the rookie QB has time at the LOS to see what the defense is doing, and adjust.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned. Or at least I haven't heard it....

The worst starting QBs in today's NFL are light years better than the worst starting QBs of just a decade ago.

I know that rule changes have made a big difference but you look at the worst QBs of the 90s and it's so bad it's a wonder the games were even viewed.

A world where the Sanchezs, Fitzpatricks, Cassels, Vicks and others are the worst playing is actually pretty good IMO.

I googled some of the all time worst QBs per team...check out some of these names. I watched plenty of their awful, dreadful games...

Milt Plum det -2167
Jake Plummer crd -2143
Vinny Testaverde tam -1967
David Carr htx -1866
Randy Johnson atl -1801
Rick Mirer sea -1705
Mike Phipps cle -1687
Rick Norton mia -1544
Kyle Boller rav -1530
Ryan Leaf sdg -1528
Jack Jacobs gnb -1453
Alex Smith sfo -1450
Jack Concannon chi -1438
Frank Tripucka den -1409
Davey O'Brien phi -1366
Dave M. Brown nyg -1357
Jeff George clt -1336
Dennis Shaw buf -1314
Dan Pastorini oti -1285
Mike Taliaferro nwe -1200
Dave Wilson nor -1160
Mark Malone pit -1125
Kerry Collins car -1111
Ralph Guglielmi was -1079
Akili Smith cin -1067
Todd Blackledge kan - 886
Marc Wilson rai - 817
Dan Pastorini ram - 813
Bubby Brister nyj - 660
Quincy Carter dal - 588
Steve Beuerlein jax - 218

Spot on....and the closer the gap between the good and bad QBs, the more other positions become the difference of winning and losing....right now, the most valuable position to have a stud at might be FS as the gap between the best and worst is the most significant