DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shurmur and Heckert expected to be fired Monday

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Carmen Policy 2.0 in Joe Banner Another contract lawyer that has been given power over the football side. Lets find the HC and then let him find his GM and boy that has worked well. Butch hired his puppet that refused to listen to his own scouts. Mangini hired Koko puffs who hid in his office and preteneded not to be in so he wouldnt have to talk to people lol.

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I don't recall Banner or Haslam saying anything like that.

Is there some info out there that I'm not aware of?

Joe Banner:

(On his role with being involved in the draft)- “As we’ve said before, we’re going to put together a team. It’s going to include Jimmy and myself, the head coach, again either director of player personnel or general manager. We’re going to work collaboratively. We’re going to have primary responsibilities with different people depending upon their strengths and weaknesses. Our goal will be to generate consensus on as many decisions as we possibly can. Frankly sometimes we can’t generate consensus. ‘Should we go after that player?’ If we don’t have consensus, maybe that means we shouldn’t. Our odds of being right are probably when most of us are on the same page or agree that that would be a really good move. The final detail of that frankly is something we’ll probably never get into a lot of detail about publicly, but won’t really even be determined until we see the strengths and weaknesses of all the different people that we’re going to put together.”

Thanks for that, but not exactly what I'd meant, RO.

Maybe I should have been more specific regarding Mourg's quote. I was speaking of a situation where the Head Coach would be bringing in, and lording over, a GM/Player Personnel guy.

I've re-watched the presser looking for anything that would indicate the head coach holding authority over the GM/Director of Player Personnel. Combining what I saw with what you posted, I'm not convinced the coach is going to hire the GM.

Thanks to Randy Lerner:

Butch Davis had total and final authority.
Mangini had total and final authority.

Randy Lerner is now eating crap-fish and french fries out of baskets filled with newspapers while trying to figure out how not to lose his ass on soccer. Meanwhile, here in Cleveland, the owner and his CEO, with whom he'll work very closely, have determined and stated that while the Head Coach will have final say on the game-day roster, and by proxy some moves, the decision-making process will be a collaborative effort. The final structure has yet to be determined, as the role of GM/Player Personnel Director has yet to be determined, and that everyone will answer to Banner, creating a situation where no Head Coach will have authority over any GM when it comes to picking players.

I don't see where the Head Coach has final authority in the way that Davis and Mangini did.

Truth be told, it doesn't actually sound as though they've even settled on a specific structure at all, just a general concept based around consensus. This is the model which directed the Eagles to all their successes, and during that time history tells us that people named Tom Heckert and Howie Roseman weren't just puppets.

Based on what Jeffrey Lurie has just stated regarding his firing of Reid, he's been keeping score on which guys in his circle of decision-makers had the more hits and misses. That he stated Roseman had more hits than Reid indicates that the GM in Philly was anything but a puppet. It also indicates that Banner played a larger role in personnel than many thought, including me.

As PDR stated, the amount of conclusion-jumping is alarming. Things which have been stated as fact since Banner came to down have already been turned upside down. It would behoove the fans to sit back and let all the details come to light before grabbing the pitchforks.

Aren't you running out of fences to ride on?

You of all people need "articles" to exactly say what everyone can read between the lines? Banner has already stated that the HC will pick the 53, that alone is WAY more authority over the GM than I think is smart, as HCs tend to be too loyal to their vets and reluctant to give "unproven" rooks a shot even if they practice and play better. It's no coincidence that Heckert's rosters were much younger and filled with more rooks than Mangini's. With this kind of setup we'd have guys like Poteat Trusnik and Costanzo on the roster instead of Bademosi, Fort and Robertson.

Also, you pretty much exclude the best possible GM candidates since GMs that have leverage (= are good) ALWAYS want say on the 53. GMs are the guys with the eye for talent and long term plan, Coaches are there to get the most out of the players by MANAGING them and putting them in a position to succeed.

Anytime you have a HC with GM authroties you also have more locker room problems as the HC will quickly be seen as a two-faced rat, as he has to treat the "player" on a weekly basis and at the same time backstabbing some of them at the end (or even during) of the season when the next roster decision looms. "I love you" and "I'm sorry to cut you" should not come out of the mouth of the same person. A HC handling his given yearly roster and a FO or GM handling the long term business side of things is proven to be a better good cop/bad cop setup. We've seen it here firsthand with Butch and Mangini, it's a recipe for failure.

Banner has already revealed the hierarchy in the draft room, just read the succession of names in Muni's quote: Haslam, Banner, HC....then GM. What scout or GM worth a damn wants to "work" in an environment like this? I mean, the draft is THEIR SuperBowl and even there they're only the king's jester praying for thumps up on "their" findings. You're only gonna get fringe NFL scouting talent or first timers to work under those circumstances. That's stupid and if you want talent be brought in, you maximize the investment and power from the ground up, not vice versa. A "strong leader" of crap talent won't get you far.

That said, this roster as is can easily fight for the POs next season even with a crappy draft and only 1 or 2 FA upgrades. Natural progression of many young cornerstones at key positions (esp on Offense) and some young D players starting their prime years (Haden, Taylor, Ward, Sheard).

I actually think Chip Kelly could work out IF they retain Jauron to handle the D side of things. It would certainly end the Weeden-"era" and we'd sell the farm for Gino and over-draft Barner but it could be fun to watch for some weeks until the league speed and talent shuts it down, lol

Can't wait for the offseason "moves" and I have already laid out my prognostication of the next 4 moves. If they hit 3 of them, I'm out for the season and put myself on IR, I'm sure many on here will throw a party

FWIW

From rotoworld:

The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports the Jets have scheduled an interview with former Browns GM Tom Heckert for the same position in New York.
Beat writer Mary Kay Cabot also reports Heckert is being "heavily" pursued by another team, but that it's not Arizona. Heckert left behind a mixed legacy in Cleveland — specifically, he was far too timid — but is miles ahead of former Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum in talent evaluation. It doesn't sound like he'll remain out of work for long.

Yes, we are still stupid

I'm not surprised that Tom Heckert's name is being mentioned for some of the GM opening around the league and it appears that he might be the most sought after GM on the market at this time. Don't be surprised if Heckert has more than one option or job offer to consider.

Other NFL teams understand the tough task Heckert was involved in here in Cleveland...rebuilding the Browns roster via the draft. Also, the rest of the NFL is aware of the fact that Heckert only completed 3 yrs of the 5 yr plan before Banner pulled the plug.

With the foundation for the defense built in Heckert's first two drafts and the foundation for the offense being addressed in the 2012 draft, other teams are not about to judge Heckert's performance as GM, based on the record of such a young and in experienced team.

Top management around the NFL understand that Heckert did not build the Browns to challenge for the playoffs in the 3rd yr of the 5 yr rebuilding plan. Owners and Presidents/CEOs considering Heckert as their GM will not hold the Browns 3 yr won/loss record against Heckert. Owners and managers around the NFL understand exactly what the Browns and Heckert were attempting to do with their 5 yrs rebuilding plan.

It was printed that Heckert knew he would be fired the day Haslam announced Joe Banner would be replacing Holmgren as Pres/CEO of the Browns.

That is a pretty good indication that Heckert's firing was more about his involvement with Joe Banner prior to Heckert coming to Cleveland than the quality of work Heckert did while here, IMO.

IMO, Banner is settling old scores, using his power as a member of the investment group to first get the job as Pres/GM, then using that power to fire all who he may have had past issues with.

Banner has a history and reputation in the NFL that he himself created in his 19 yrs in Philly and I see no sign that Banner has changed or turned over a new leaf.

The fact that Heckert is being pursued by other teams is a pretty good indication that he is being viewed favorably for the job he has done in Cleveland, rather than negatively.

It has been rumored that Mike Lombardi is being considered by Haslam and Banner, to replace Heckert. Lombardi last worked as a senior football executive 5 yrs ago and took up sports writing and tv analysis during those 5 yrs, when no offers for a football GM/executive position materialized.

I'm hopeful that Haslam and Banner can hire a better qualified individual than Mike Lombardi to fill Heckert's position. If they can't, it would be difficult to say the Browns got better by firing Tom Heckert.

Shurmur fired..... no big deal that writing was on the wall when he was hired.

Heckert fired...... BIG DEAL as Banner has made his first stupid move. But don't worry I am sure banner has more stupid moves up his sleeve before he gets fired himself

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Off topic a bit, but over the years I've noticed that those I completely disagree with in political forums are those that I tend to agree with in football forums.

Go figure.

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true for me, as well...particularly with the QB issues!

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Off topic a bit, but over the years I've noticed that those I completely disagree with in political forums are those that I tend to agree with in football forums.

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So, you agree with just about everybody in the football forums?

j/c

I'm on board with Shurmer getting fired and thinking it was fine. I think in another year everyone would have gelled a little more. But I'm not upset by it at all.

I was very upset Heckert was let go... it was selfish of Banner and iMO not in the best interest of the Browns. There are a lot of teams that want him to be their next GM. I would have rather we had a GM that no one wanted vs one that everyone wants over all of the other GM's out there.

my .02

Figured this would be interesting.. here is a list of every draft pick of the Heckert/Holmgren area (after trades)

2010:
#7: Joe Haden
#38: TJ Ward
#59: Montario Hardesty
#85: Colt McCoy
#92: Shawn Lauvao
#160: Larry Asante
#177: Carlton Mitchell
#186: Clifton Geathers

2011:
#21: Phil Taylor
#37: Jabaal Sheard
#59: Greg Little
#102: Jordan Cameron
#124: Owen Marecic
#137: Buster Skrine
#150: Jason Pinkston
#248: Eric Hagg

2012:
#3: Trent Richardson
#22: Brandon Weeden
#37: Mitchell Schwartz
#39: Josh Gordon (2013 pick)
#87: John Hughes
#100: Travis Benjamin
#120: James-Michael Johnson
#160: Ryan Miller
#204: Emmanuel Acho
#205: Billy Winn
#247: Brad Smelley


On one hand there is a lot of young talent on this team. On the other hand, that is a tremendous amount of draft power over 3 years and as of right now, there really isn't an elite/game changing player in that entire group. I was kind of hoping Heckert would stay. He did a solid job IMO, but I'm not all that upset that he's gone either.

How does that compare to the drafting of the rest of the NFL?
We won't really know for a coupla more years,but I have this sneaky suspicion that alot of those players will be coveted by other teams once they reach FA status.