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to shove into Shurmur's round hole
Before anyone else does: 
But maybe Shurmur liked square pegs in his round hole.
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Heckert wanted Colt and can be blamed for that one but Weeden was on Heckert.
Actually, I thought it was reported that Holmgren that wanted McCoy.
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Yes, It was Holmgren that wanted Colt. Heckert wanted Weeden.
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PitDawg mentioned that Alex Smith was a winner. I pointed out that there were many other QBs who will cost virtually nothing that are available and have won also.
What you proved is that he didn't start out as a youngster well. His first few seasons weren't good. What I in turn proved, is that he turned the corner in his career and has been a very consistant winner over the past two seasons.
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If Alex Smith was a free agent I would think he would be in the conversation. But he is not a free agent.
He will also cost the 49'ers a TON of cap space if they keep him. It's pretty well known that if they can't garner a trade, he will be released. If the cost is a very high draft pick, I don't want him either. If it's a third or lower, I'd be interested.
You can point to his yardage totals all day if you like, point is, he did what was asked of him. Had he of been asked to do more, pass more, you have no way of knowing how he would have responded. So you wish to blame Alex Smith because the coach didn't ask him to do more?
To me that defies logic....
I know it's a stupid question, but can a guy that gets released (thereby becoming a free agent) allow his former team to acquire a compensatory pick in the draft?
It would seem, on the face of it, that he wouldn't because he wouldn't have become a 'free agent' after an expired contract but by being cut. Anyone know of a link to the new CBA and the rules regarding this.
Nevermind... It wasn't too hard to find but here is the link just in case anyone else cares.
https://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/CBA-Download/
Last edited by anarchy2day; 02/07/13 09:05 PM.
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Yes, It was Holmgren that wanted Colt. Heckert wanted Weeden.
Sorry, I was going to delete that post after I had seen you addressed that in a follow-up that I hadn't read yet.
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Yet I don't see anyone touting Smith as being elite.
There is a good reason for that.. he's simply NOT elite.
But he had some of his best years under Turner and now Harbaugh.
Alex Smith had his 5th best season under Norv Turner. Out of 7.
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The only correlation I can draw between Turner and Smith as it pertains to viability as a starter revolve around Turner's evaluation of Smith's mind and his tools. If I remember it correctly, Turner had him in 2006. That was a very different Alex Smith, but Turner will have a better idea than some of the other regarding what he can or cannot do.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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i agree. i'm just sick of people acting like he was a good QB under Norv. he was still young and figuring things out, but it was not a good year.
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If you are trying to justify signing Smith, it makes for a much better story than to say he sucked so bad that everyone was fired.
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If you are trying to justify signing Smith, it makes for a much better story than to say he sucked so bad that everyone was fired.
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This is rich stuff from all of you doing your best, woulda, coulda, shoulda, 20-20 hindsight "act".
Had the Browns not moved to get Richardson and lost him to a team willing to pay the price to move ahead of the Browns...I could hear all of you screaming about how Holmgren and Heckert were idiots for not doing what was necessary to get Richardson.
Same thing with Weeden...had the Browns waited until the second round and lost out on all the top QBs, many of you would have been screaming about Heckert and Holmgren screwing that up.
No one on this message board has the football intellect and knowledge needed to man a position in a NFL draft room...all of us are "amateurs"...whether we have the courage to admit it, or not.
What is going on here is a game of make believe...pretending we have the knowledge to second guess the professionals.
None of us knows what information may have caused the Browns to react...who may have called the Browns and tipped them off on a potential situation where another team may have been planning to move ahead of the Browns to draft Richardson or a team that wanted Weeden.
Mac...
None of the stuff I said was hindsight. All of it was stuff I said long before the draft last year or stuff heckert said before the draft last year or stuff Holmgren as heckert said during/after the draft. If you need me to look it.up for you, I will.
Mac...
I agree that they must be privy to some information unavailable to us, the most obvious being the draft board, but if they admit their plan failed and just cut their losses when us schmoes knew that plan wouldn't work, and had suggested how to remedy it before the draft, then what does that say for them?
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but if they admit their plan failed and just cut their losses when us schmoes knew that plan wouldn't work, and had suggested how to remedy it before the draft, then what does that say for them?
...just what plan are you referring to...what didn't work?
The Browns wanted Richardson and they got him...I call that success !
The Browns wanted a QB and Weeden was obviously one they considered...they got him...I call that success !
Just what "plan" failed?
I stand by everything I said...what we have going on here is a bunch of Browns fans using their 20-20 hindsight, looking back at the draft claiming you would have been successful because you are just better than the people we had in the draft room.
None of us knew what information the Browns were acting on. Hell, maybe Lerner, after not being able to land RGIII, told Holmgren and Heckert,make sure you get the guys we are targeting.
The Browns had the draft capital to make sure they got the guys they wanted and they used...I call that a success !
All of you complaining know damn well, had Holmgren and Heckert been out maneuvered with teams will to use their draft capital to move ahead of the Browns, to take Richardson or the QB of our choice...you folks would be complaining like hell, had that happened.
It's nothing more than a game of "pretend"...woulda, coulda, shoulda with hindsight being 20/20 !
All of us are "amateurs"...nothing more !
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jc http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP-Scout-Talk-4124.htmlTeams wanting a veteran quarterback are likely to face this choice: Matt Flynn, Alex Smith or Michael Vick? All are under contract for 2013, but it is likely all will be available in some form. So I asked three front office men about the trio. They were in agreement that this would be their order of preference if they had to sign one of them: 1. Alex Smith. The evaluators believe the 28-year old has the best combination of experience and potential. One noted that Smith played for seven different coordinators in his eight seasons, and as a result Smith might have more potential for growth. He also noted Smith’s development as a leader and his good attitude through his recent benching. But another wondered if Smith might revert to his previous form if Jim Harbaugh is no longer coaching him. Smith’s passer rating under Harbaugh is 95.1 compared to 72.1 in his previous six years. This is how one of the front office men evaluated him: “His arm strength is just average, but he’s an accurate underneath passer. The thing you like about him is he doesn’t make the big mistake. He is a good caretaker. He’s smart. But he is more of a game manager. The question with him is this—is he good enough to get you to the next level? And it obviously was a question Jim Harbaugh had.”2. Matt Flynn. NFL teams remain intrigued by Flynn, but not wowed by him. Nobody is dinging him too badly for being beaten out by Russell Wilson in Seattle. But nobody is going to stand on the table for a quarterback with two career starts and 141 career attempts. Flynn remains an unknown five years into his NFL career. “He has shown enough of an upside to merit an opportunity,” one front office guy said. Said another: “You probably need a West Coast offense for him. He has an average arm, it’s not a gun. He throws on time pretty well. He isn’t a runner, but he can move in the pocket fairly well. He probably only can get you so far.” 3. Michael Vick. The fact that Vick is 32 years old could work against him, but not necessarily. Said one talent evaluator: “He is interesting if you have the right situation for him. It depends what you are trying to get done.” Vick could be a good bridge to a young quarterback on a team that feels it has many pieces in place with the exception of a QB. There is some concern that Vick is a descending player. And a running quarterback who is descending has limited value. “He has taken a lot of hits and is inconsistent with his decisions on scrambling,” one front office man said. “If you are waiting for him to be a pure pocket passer, he has always been inconsistent in that area.” Another views Vick this way: “He does not have the unique athletic skills he once had to create, but he still moves around better than most. What made him is speed, and that is deteriorating. The problem is he can’t hold up as well as he once did. His ability to stay healthy, secure the football and make decisions all are questionable.” None of the quarterbacks who are expected to be available are blemish free. That, in part, is why they could be available. But each has enough redeeming qualities to create a market.
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Yes, It was Holmgren that wanted Colt. Heckert wanted Weeden.
This is the info we've all been given but someone on one of these threads yesterday said that holmgren demanded that Heckert take Weeden. Which I might add, was the first time I've heard that.
As for McCoy, taking a shot with a guy that was that successful in college, is a good guy and smart and just a great guy by all accounts in the third round, sounds like it could have one of those stories about catching lightning in a bottle.
It didn't work that way, but only in hindsight does it appear to be dumb..
*NOTE: Except for those that insisted on saying he sucked from the beginning.
Funny thing about predicting a player will NOT live up to expectations, the odds are you are right no matter who you pick. More players DON'T live up to expectations in the NFL than those that do so if you just stand there and say, he's gonna suck in the NFL about everyone drafted, you'll be closer to right more often than not.
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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...just what plan are you referring to...what didn't work?
The Browns wanted Richardson and they got him...I call that success !
The Browns wanted a QB and Weeden was obviously one they considered...they got him...I call that success !
Just what "plan" failed?
It's not hindsight to put the pieces together. Their original plan was to get one of the top two QBs in this draft. They called multiple times about Luck and were turned away. They thought they had RGIII in the bag and listening to Holmgren talk about it afterwards, he was furious their offer didn't win. That's the plan that failed most obviously.
Onto Plan B which was Richardson/Wright/Weeden. Except that plan failed too. Matt Kalil was always Minnesota's pick but they created some last minute smoke to try and extract picks out of us. Instead of telling them "Good luck getting Kalil if you move down" and rolling the dice, we bit and gave them a 4th, 5th and 7th for free because we were afraid of losing our guy again. Got our guy, yes. Did we need to trade up? Probably not.
Yeah, we got our 1st guy but we had no ammo left to trade up and got sniped from Kendall Wright at #21. The fact that we were taking Wright at #22 was confirmed by both insiders and indirectly by Holmgren/Heckert after the draft. So what did we do now that we lost out on someone else? We panicked and forced Weeden up the board instead of maximizing value by trading down or waiting to draft Weeden when we originally intended. It's not revisionist history to say we wanted to wait on Weeden a bit. If we were taking Wright at #22, logic suggests we weren't taking Weeden there too.
Exact same thing happened with Josh Gordon... we very likely could've gotten him for a 3rd rounder but Heckert said he decided what his bid was going to be BEFORE looking at the order. Not revisionist, he flat out said that in an interview. Anyone could've looked at the order and seen that we lucked out bigtime with a high supplemental pick had only Buffalo as a threat ahead of us in the 3rd.
That easily should've been enough to get us to rethink our bid in an effort to maximize value but there we were again, paying sticker price for a car that we likely would've been able to barter down. Is it success to overpay for everything? Sure, there were rumors they liked him and hell, they might've taken him but again... do you believe rumors that rarely come to pass or do you maximize value? As a result, we were the only team who put a 2nd round bid on him. Same thing with John Hughes, etc.
So can you consider that a success? I suppose... we got Richardson, Weeden, Gordon, Hughes etc. but we didn't MAXIMIZE our return. That's the problem with "reaches"... getting your guy is great but part of the skill comes in getting him at a place where others value him and use the extra resources to add even more talent. Harbaugh came out and said he thought Kaepernick was the best player in the draft. Per the Heckert school, that means take him at #7. I'm sure they'd still be happy with the pick but instead they have Kaepernick AND Aldon Smith. That's how the draft is played.
We got our guys but wasted valuable assets because our FO operated in panic mode 24/7 while drafting. Those assets could've been used to get MORE of our guys on top of the ones we already have. Heckert was a pretty good evaluator of talent but IMO, he/Holmgren or whoever called the shots was lousy at playing the draft.
We're... we're good?
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What I in turn proved, is that he turned the corner in his career and has been a very consistant winner over the past two seasons.
You didn't prove anything. You stated your opinion.
No, he DID prove that he has been a consistent winner over the last 2 years, all you have to do is look at his record.. the opinion part is how that would translate to another team, another system...
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You can point to his yardage totals all day if you like, point is, he did what was asked of him. Had he of been asked to do more, pass more, you have no way of knowing how he would have responded. So you wish to blame Alex Smith because the coach didn't ask him to do more?
Did it ever occur to you that the coach didn't ask him to do more because he couldn't do it? And it's not the system.
That's certainly a possibility...
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As soon as Kaepernick went in at QB the ball started flying all over the place. If the coaches knew that Smith could do more and didn't allow him to do more, then they are bad coaches. But Harbaugh and his offensive coordinator Greg Roman are two of the best offensive coaches in the league, so they probably didn't restrict their offense just for the sake of restricting the offense.
If you have a QB who went 13-3 one year and had you within a couple plays of the Super Bowl.. then went 6-2 to start the next year... why would you ask him to do more? Hey, this guys 20-6 over the last 2 years but let's ask him to throw it around more just because we can... if they did that, they would be considered idiots.. kind of like a guy asking Colt McCoy to throw it 40 times or a rookie like Weeden. You don't do it if you don't have to.
Kaepernick threw the ball about 3-4 more times per game on average than did Smith but he had a significantly lower completion percentage... he also had a much higher yards per completion average... throw in that he's a lot younger and that he can run like he can and that is why he got to keep the starting job.. none of that is a knock on Smith.... Comparing 2011 to 2012, there is no reason to believe that Smith could not also have had the 49ers in the super bowl... no reason at all..
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Re: panicking and taking Weeden at 22, and how it wasn't their "plan" http://www.espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=1038Quote:
Titans threw them for a loop: The Browns entered the draft with a wish to pull off a triplet play on offense – running back Trent Richardson, wide receiver Kendall Wright and quarterback Brandon Weeden.
The plan went awry when the Tennessee Titans surprised the Browns by selecting Wright with the 20th pick.
Wright was the third receiver and last available that GM Tom Heckert believed could step in as a starter. With Wright gone, the Browns decided to secure the pick of Weeden at No. 22 rather than sweat it out that he would be there at No. 37.
This was most likely the point where Holmgren pulled rank on Heckert.
After the draft, Holmgren disclosed a discussion that took place with Heckert. He did not say it involved Weeden.
“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.
“Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’
“I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...don-weeden-pick
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The Cleveland Browns have been hunting for a franchise quarterback ever since Bill Belichick rattled the city by releasing Bernie Kosar midway through the 1993 season.
The man in charge of finding that elusive prize today -- Browns president Mike Holmgren -- believes Brandon Weeden won't disappoint.
The Browns turned heads last week when they pulled the trigger on the Oklahoma State quarterback with the 22nd overall pick in the draft. The popular thinking was Cleveland would wait until the 37th pick. But when the Tennessee Titans snagged Kendall Wright at No. 20, the Browns bypassed their need at wide receiver and shifted gears.
Holmgren relayed a backroom conversation he shared with general manager Tom Heckert during the draft. Holmgren didn't specify the exchange was over Weeden, but ESPN Cleveland connected those dots. Did the trade up for running back Trent Richardson at No. 3 lead to this chat? Possibly. It sure doesn't sound like the preamble to selecting tight end Brad Smelley with the 247th pick.
"I said, 'Tom, do you want to do this?' " Holmgren said after the draft. "He said, 'I don't think I do. I think it's too much or too strong or whatever.'
"Then I said, 'Well, we may have to.' Then he goes, 'Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won't do it.'
"I said, 'OK, then I might have to tell you.' "
http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2012/4/27/2...ence-transcript
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(Ryan Tannehill or Kendall Wright) > Brandon Weeden?
Tom Heckert - (On drafting Weeden)- "Brandon was by far the best player for us after a couple guys got picked. There wasn’t even an afterthought. After a couple of guys went we knew we were going to take him and we didn’t even think about moving down."
Tom Heckert - (On if the decision would have been tougher if Kendall Wright wasn’t picked at 20)- "We liked Kendall, we really did. Like I said, it is more so it was a quarterback. We liked Kendall and there were a couple of guys that we liked, but a quarterback is a quarterback, which I think that outweighs everything, at least in our opinion."
Tom Heckert - (On taking Weeden if Wright was still there)- "We didn’t have to make that decision."
Tom Heckert - (On if there was a debate between Weeden at some point and Ryan Tannehill at some point)- "Not really."
Tom Heckert - (On if Weeden appealed to them more than Tannehill)- "We all like Weeden and we liked Tannehill too, but we all liked Weeden. You can guess what I am saying, I guess."
There are several other references available online.
As far as panicking and trading up to 3 for Richardson...
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/03/cleveland_browns_gm_tom_hecker_13.html
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PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Browns General Manager Tom Heckert ruled out a trade up to No. 3 in the draft, but will consider trading back as far as No. 8, he told the Plain Dealer Monday.
There's been speculation some teams might try to trade with Minnesota to get the man they really want, especially if they think the Browns will take him at No. 4.
"We're not trading up, I guarantee that," Heckert said. "There's going to be five guys that we really like and we're going to get a really good player at number four. But we could still get a really good player at five, six, seven, eight too."
What would be the point of lying there? Why insist you are not trading up rather than saying something like "we have the flexibility to move up or down, we are happy with our board and we will do what's right for the team?" What strategic benefit is there in lying about moving up one spot? The minute you call Minnesota telling them you want to trade, and doubt you put there to keep the price down vanishes. Obviously if you're trying to go from 4 to 3 you have only one player in mind.
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in the end, we were extremely lucky the Titans grabbed Wright. we ended up getting Schwartz (no guarantee he's there in round3) and got our high round WR in Gordon. I'm happy with both of those picks.
if we were going to take Weeden regardless, then how he has played doesn't even factor into the equation.
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yeah, that's the one thing that would redeem them in my eyes (like it matters) is if they had Gordon as a contingency the whole time. I hadn't heard anyone talking about him at all until the supplemental eligibles were announced. At the time, it looked like we were SOL on receivers, but Gordon was a huge pickup for the team.
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i cannot even fathom how last year goes without Gordon doing what he did. i'm also giving him some credit for helping out Little because once he started doing well, Little's play went up as well (either shifts in coverage or him knowing he needed to do more).
that and I refuse to give Mourning credit for Little.
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As was pointed out by DC, I did prove that Alex smith is a proven winner. You can slice and dice that any way you wish. BTW- Thanks DC....
But I do want to make things a little clearer here. I am not advocating this FO sign or trade for Alex Smith. Do I think that is a good idea? Yes I do. And I will say that if this FO feels some deep seeded need to make a move at the QB position, I would consider this their best option available.
Actually San Fran is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. They went 13-3 last year and Smith was doing great yet again this year. Does that look like a situation where you need a change at QB? No, it doesn't.
Yet Smith wasn't "their guy". He was there when the new regime took over. They drafted "their guy". When he got his chance he excelled. So the move was made.
This happens the vast majority of the time. Each new FO wants to put their mark or their brand on the face of the franchise. Especially when the QB in place has not excelled. I'm not saying I always advocate this, but it is quite often the way that it works.
Let's now look at the contrast between us and San Fran. San Fran was only a couple of plays away from the SB last year. So "the next step" for them, is a stark contrast when you compare what "the next step" is for us.
We need to be at least a .500 team and then be a playoff team. Only until we reach these goals, can we look for the next step to be a SB.
So what I do see is Smith being a logical move for this FO to make in order to get to those "next steps" until a QB can be drafted and developed. A QB that will help this team improve and be competitive until they get a permanent solution at the QB position. Let's be honest here, this draft is far more unlikely to produce the long term answer at the QB position than last years.
So IF this FO feels some need to address the QB position during this off-season, I do see Smith as the best option available. If that's the path they choose to follow, I would understand it and not knock them for making the move.
I also wouldn't knock them for sticking with Weeden. But after Weedens lack of development over the course of last season, I'd say he's on a very short leash and I'm simply not sure if they will feel comfortable with not bringing in a viable option at QB.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think you guys have proven he's part of a winning team coached by Harbaugh....
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I also wouldn't knock them for sticking with Weeden. But after Weedens lack of development over the course of last season, I'd say he's on a very short leash and I'm simply not sure if they will feel comfortable with not bringing in a viable option at QB.
it's going to get lost as we move to a new thread, but this is an extremely pertinant point that I believe most people agree on.
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I also agree with that point. Now can we get back to arguing?!
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I also agree with that point. Now can we get back to arguing?!
not until someone opens a new thread 
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Re: panicking and taking Weeden at 22, and how it wasn't their "plan"
http://www.espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=1038
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Titans threw them for a loop: The Browns entered the draft with a wish to pull off a triplet play on offense – running back Trent Richardson, wide receiver Kendall Wright and quarterback Brandon Weeden.
The plan went awry when the Tennessee Titans surprised the Browns by selecting Wright with the 20th pick.
Wright was the third receiver and last available that GM Tom Heckert believed could step in as a starter. With Wright gone, the Browns decided to secure the pick of Weeden at No. 22 rather than sweat it out that he would be there at No. 37.
This was most likely the point where Holmgren pulled rank on Heckert.
After the draft, Holmgren disclosed a discussion that took place with Heckert. He did not say it involved Weeden.
“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.
“Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’
“I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
this was in regards to colt McCoy not Weeden.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/26/holmgren-pulled-rank-to-draft-colt-mccoy/
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in the end, we were extremely lucky the Titans grabbed Wright. we ended up getting Schwartz (no guarantee he's there in round3) and got our high round WR in Gordon. I'm happy with both of those picks.
if we were going to take Weeden regardless, then how he has played doesn't even factor into the equation.
Most of us are happy with them too but it doesn't mean we didn't waste resources. We took Weeden a round before we wanted. We took Schwartz a round before we wanted. We spent a high 2nd on Gordon. All those are fine picks but what if we didn't trade up for Richardson? Now we have an extra 4th/5th/7th to use as trade bait for the other guys if we need to move up to secure them.
Realistically, had we played it calm and for value, we may have been able to get Richardson, Wright, Weeden, Schwartz and a 2013 2nd (which was the original plan) for the same price as we got Richardson, Weeden, Schwartz, Gordon and Hughes. The second version is still good but not having a 2nd rounder this year was a big price to pay for H&H's panic moves.
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I am 99% certain that comment was about trading up for Richardson. When asked about Weeden they just made it pretty clear after Wright they had Weeden as the next highest player on their board.
They were waffling on whether or not to move up one spot to select Richardson. That was the big debate.
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I think you guys have proven he's part of a winning team coached by Harbaugh....
And I think that's the important thing. He's OK when surrounded by an almost perfect team. If the team has a top 5 run game and a top 5 defense, then a guy like Smith can be effective. However, on a team without those strengths, more pressure weighs down on the QB. He can't throw only in advantageous situations. He has to throw when the defense expects it, and is prepared to stop the pass. This is where Smith has always failed. There is a reason why Smith had thrown more INT than TD until Harbaugh got there. The scary part is that Smith was never relied upon to be "the guy". He was just further restrained when Harbaugh got there, and he played it extremely safe.
For a team without a top 5 defense and top 5 run game, this is a recipe for a 3-6 win season. You need your QB to be able to make plays. Smith hasn't had to do so under Harbaugh. He could make safe throws, only when players were wide open. If the choice was to make a play with a risk of a mistake, or to play it safe, throw the ball away, and punt, the coaches wanted him to take the punt. He would not have that advantage as consistently elsewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Re: panicking and taking Weeden at 22, and how it wasn't their "plan"
http://www.espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=1038
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Titans threw them for a loop: The Browns entered the draft with a wish to pull off a triplet play on offense – running back Trent Richardson, wide receiver Kendall Wright and quarterback Brandon Weeden.
The plan went awry when the Tennessee Titans surprised the Browns by selecting Wright with the 20th pick.
Wright was the third receiver and last available that GM Tom Heckert believed could step in as a starter. With Wright gone, the Browns decided to secure the pick of Weeden at No. 22 rather than sweat it out that he would be there at No. 37.
This was most likely the point where Holmgren pulled rank on Heckert.
After the draft, Holmgren disclosed a discussion that took place with Heckert. He did not say it involved Weeden.
“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.
“Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’
“I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
this was in regards to colt McCoy not Weeden.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/26/holmgren-pulled-rank-to-draft-colt-mccoy/
bud, read it again. It just happened with both QBs. The difference is with McCoy, Heckert wasn't planning on drafting him at all. With Weeden, he just wasn't planning on drafting him at 22.
Last edited by clevesteve; 02/08/13 03:13 PM.
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“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever. “Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’ “I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
This was in regards to trading up for Richardson. I have no clue how some in the media interpreted this as anything about a QB.
Later in that same interview they talk about once Wright came off the board Weeden was their man. There wasnt any debate on that one. The debate was to trade up for Richardson.
For the Colt comments, Mike said he asked Heckert if he could draft his qb once the DT that Heckert had targeted was drafted by the Falcons. Something like now can I take him and Heckert said yes.
Now similar comments were made about the trade to Atlanta. There was a lot of debate on whether or not to make that trade down.
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I think you guys have proven he's part of a winning team coached by Harbaugh....
So I will ask what I asked before... are we looking for a QB that can overcome poor coaching and poor support players to win? Is that what we are looking for?
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Just a stupid question:
If, instead of Richardson, Wright and Weeden, we took Richardson, Weeden, and Schwartz ... plus Gordon in the supplemental draft .... would there really have been a difference that hurt us at all there?
Personally, I don't see one. I think that things turned out better with Richardson, Weeden, Schwartz, and Gordon, than they would have with Richardson, Wight, and Weeden.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well, their original plan, even if mac refuses to accept it despite their essential disclosure as such, was to take Schwartz in the third round after taking Weeden in the second. While I had Schwartz rated as the 4th OT in the draft for the Browns, the popular opinion was that he was behind Glenn (who I had him behind as well), Adams, Martin, and heck, even Massie lol who were all still available after the Browns picked Schwartz. If the Browns came into the draft thinking they could get Schwartz in the third, it's not a stretch to think we could have gotten him in the third.
I think that Wright is a better fit for the WCO than Gordon... the guy knows how to catch the ball and make something happen. I think Weeden is not a good option for the WCO, which is why I didn't have him listed among my 150 targets for the Browns. Since then, a lot of opinion has come out that agrees with me (doesn't really count as 'hindsight' to me.)
The Gordon thing is a wildcard. We don't know if he was in their plans when they made the moves they did in the draft, since he wasn't even declared for the supplemental.
The second round pick this year would probably be either a starting corner (Jordan Poyer, Desmond Trufant, Johnthan Banks are possibilities) or a top-end tight end (one of Eifert or Ertz may be there.)
That being said, I think Gordon and Weeden fit in a vertical offense very nicely. In the situation we're in now, yes I prefer Gordon to Wright (not sure if I prefer Gordon to Wright + a second round pick.) But that hardly indicates a success on the part of Holmgren and Heckert, since the roles they wanted them to play are no longer here. However, they also are no longer here.
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I had him right behind Osemele who did pretty well at RT for the Ravens all year (and LG in the playoffs).
The thing is that Schwartz played as well as any of those guys and with the run on OTs in the 2nd round it may have ended up being a good thing it played out as it did because Schwartz very well could have been gone in the 3rd.
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Hindsight is always so clear isn't it LOL
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I agree with the exception of Glenn that he outperformed the other OTs taken after the first round. Like I said, I like Schwartz, but he's not a difference-maker like Glenn. CJ Spiller was on an NFL-record pace for ypc the first half of the season due to the addition of Glenn at LT. Our run blocking would have been improved quite a bit if Glenn was on the right side pushing the LE onto his butt every play. Glenn never should have made it to our pick at 22, and I can't understand why he made it to 37.
You're right... we don't know if Schwartz would have made it to the third if we hadn't taken him there. It's impossible to say with certainty who would have been available where... if we didn't draft Richardson and Tampa took him at 5, would the Giants have drafted Martin at 32? Or would they have still taken Wilson? Would he have fallen to our pick? Who knows? But we do know that it was the Browns' intention to draft Schwartz in the third, then they drafted him in the second.
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and, it may be that type of thinking that led Banner to replace Heckert.
I mean, if you have someone as a 3rd round talent on your board, how do you justify taking them in the early part of the 2nd round?
I understand taking Weeden 15 picks early more because you never know what is going to happen with a QB on draft day.
from the quotes it seems like we had a very, very select group on our board of who to take and that is just crazy (unless we are missing some key piece of info, which is possible).
(and I agree on Glenn. did before the draft, did on draftay and still do today. ah well, I'm just glad the consolation prize is pretty good too)
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Hindsight is always so clear isn't it LOL
It is when the front office in question pretty much told us what they tried to do. 
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Hindsight is always so clear isn't it LOL
It is when the front office in question pretty much told us what they tried to do.
Also a big difference between "Pretty Much" which is what we think vs what they "Actually" tried to do.
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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