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Thank you for that. Nice start to the morning.
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-jc-
Back-up Depth guy and perhaps an insurance card if Sheard can't play OLB.
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I have to admit that I like our signings so far though if you look at who we signed, it is a little hard to understand considering we were 10th in total defense and 25th in total offense last year...
I know switching to the 3-4 requires some adjustments and I'm glad we aren't waiting 3 or 4 years to draft all of our 3-4 guys... but is anybody else beginning to wonder if we aren't setting our draft up to go offense, offense, offense? Though we do still need secondary help..
late to the party, but I cannot let this one pass. our defense last year was below average. ranked #22 by football outsiders based on efficiency: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
our offense was worse (ranked #27), but the holes we need to fill there may be easier to find on the secondary FA market (OG: Green?, TE: Myers?) than the defensive guys that are flying off the shelves right now.
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Wow, that's a GREAT deal considering that Groves was a former 1st round talent who was on a "prove-it" 1year deal and had a solid (for him even "career" season as a pass rusher) season....that's really peanuts and makes this officially another good value signing for me
completely agree. I really like Groves as the 3rd OLB for passing downs. It's what he did in Arizona last year and he was good at it. He must really love playing for Horton to take what I think would be a smaller salary than he could have gotten on the market (with so many teams switching to the 3-4 this year).
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It makes the draft easier. They are always backed into a corner because they have to draft for need ..now if they continue to fill the bigger holes now,it opens the draft to do some things.
I agree all the way. If you head in to a draft having to fill holes, your screwed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
It makes the draft easier. They are always backed into a corner because they have to draft for need ..now if they continue to fill the bigger holes now,it opens the draft to do some things.
I agree all the way. If you head in to a draft having to fill holes, your screwed.
+1
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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At least I think this regime saw what we saw. The group from last year had problems stopping the rush. Glad to see the additions. Now I am wanting an OG., and a DB or S.
Here we go again
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At least I think this regime saw what we saw. The group from last year had problems stopping the rush. Glad to see the additions. Now I am wanting an OG., and a DB or S.
Sounds about right B....though I'll take a corner and a safety.
I love it. We are actually going after decent players and not sitting on our butts the first days of FA only to pick up a few scraps later on as we have done the last several years.
If nothing else it at least shows we are trying to get better.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I love it. We are actually going after decent players and not sitting on our butts the first days of FA only to pick up a few scraps later on as we have done the last several years.
If nothing else it at least shows we are trying to get better.
I love it too, but you must have missed the part where "sitting on our butts" made this splash possible by carrying over cap space through unlikely to be earned bonuses and clearing all the dead money of other regimes before
Think about it, if Heckert was still running the show, he would HAVE TO spend the money too this offseason due to the 89% rule, right? We will never know who he would have targeted, but since this "consensus" so far is looking at good players, I won't complain
#gmstrong
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I love it too, but you must have missed the part where "sitting on our butts" made this splash possible by carrying over cap space through unlikely to be earned bonuses and clearing all the dead money of other regimes before
No doubt, and I didn't miss it.
To me you want to strike a balance, and when you are a bad team it makes sense to me to try and get better.
Their problem was they thought the guys they had were better than they really were. Add in the fact the head coach was was much poorer then they could even imagine...it's no wonder they hit the road.
My feeling is had the Browns taken a turn upwards, Lerner wouldn't have sold the team. I think he finally got tired of dealing with hiring new people.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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all you can really do is watch and hope it turns out nice because you have to look at it for years......
It's been a bad neighborhood for a long time.
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I don't think I'm overstating it. I was writing that whole analogy from a DC point of view vs 1/3 owner 1/3 coach 1/3 fan POV We do have to cut bait on our backups (trees) because they should be the replacement players that will come in when someone gets hurt and our crop was based around a 4-3 vs attacking 3-4. the bank was the new owner with the loan terms changes I was using the outside walls as an example of DL and the roof as an example of the the DB's (roof= coverage) and our HC certainly doesn't have a better resume than s the whole thing probably went over a lot of people's heads. btw if you think Horton has a better resume than our previous DC... you might be a little if you think Chud has a better resume than Shurm that one is plauseable... they both have no real experience. if you think Banner/Lombardi is better H& H... you are nuts. Holmgren sucked but not Heckert. I mean... any moron that drafts a kicker in the first round should be automatically thrown out of the NFL and never say the word football again. That's like some one telling you to pick a number 1-10 and choosing 4,537. Haslam ran back to his truck stops to let someone else run the Browns within owning it for less than 4months because he probably didn't know what he was doing. (speculation) RL at least owned it for a decade and was smart enough to swindle a billion out of the current while retaining something like 30% share and making a ton of restrictions. (helmets, colors, relocating the team, ticket prices etc) so I'm not sure where you think anyone is better than the previous regime... not ever the owners
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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if you think Banner/Lombardi is better H& H... you are nuts.
Oh, Oh!!!... I pass.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I'm am digging this signing. Especially since Horton of all people should know this guy inside and out...
Corner, safety are our needs now... in addition to adding some depth across the board.
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-jc-
Back-up Depth guy and perhaps an insurance card if Sheard can't play OLB.
Pretty sure Groves started 7 games last season on the way to his best year statistically. Sheard may or may not stick. Adding Groves gives us some flexibility for the draft.
I like what we've done so far in FA. We needed front seven help big-time and we got a running start with Kruger, Bryant and Groves. I think we're good at the nose. We could still add another DE and/or OLB. Good start!
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I think you are over simplifying things.
Jauron has a longer resume than Horton..yes, better...debateable.Jauron has made alot of stops along the way but that doesn't prove he is a better DC than Horton.
Everyone keeps kicking the dead horse about Lombardi drafting a kicker in the 1st round. Two words: Al Davis.
Lerner was a horrible owner who's only goal was to be as far away from the Browns as possible until the moment he was able to sell the team.
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RL … was smart enough to swindle a billion out of the current while retaining something like 30% share
That's not even true, but go on.
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I think you are over simplifying things.
Jauron has a longer resume than Horton..yes, better...debateable.Jauron has made alot of stops along the way but that doesn't prove he is a better DC than Horton.
Yup, this. Juaron had more bottom-5 run defenses in his years as DC than top-10 run defenses.
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RL at least owned it for a decade and was smart enough to swindle a billion out of the current while retaining something like 30% share and making a ton of restrictions. (helmets, colors, relocating the team, ticket prices etc)
The Billion covers 100% of the team. He's only paid 70% up front. And will pay the other 30% in a couple years.
But lets not let facts get in the way..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Had read on the ticker tape on NFL Network...Groves pretty inexpensive...2 years for a total of 2.8 million. So if anyone thinks this move was made instead of a #6 investment for OLB...think again
As for this Resume bs...who cares. This is a new NFL. I liked Jauron much better than our O that is for sure...good coach. But his defense was pretty old. If we had more leads I think the Air D would have been exposed more...instead if got "STATS" that said we were TOP 5 NFL good...it was not. Resume...much more extensive. More up to date to the new offenses that are coming up in the NFL along with the AIR AIR AIR attack going on. One thing is evident...we have to ATTACK THE QB...its the way to beat Brady, Brees, Manning n the rest! I see that in Horton's resume regardless of the thickness of his history on paper.
Shurmur vs. Chud...Shurmur was an extension of Holmgren I don't think he had much freedom. His Offense was totally old fashion n I saw no change to the talent we had.
Chud has shown just the opposite. I'm sure he has a vision but he will EVOLVE into that vision rather than force it on all. He seems more apt to get what he can out of the talent that he possesses. Also our previous O n D under the Shurmur/Holmgren HC Leadership was be on your heals let the other teams O n D dictate to you n take what you can get. Or Read n React.
Chud was very specific...TORA! TORA! TORA!!! We will dictate we will attack at both ends of the candle.
Well that is the impression I'm getting...I thought we were getting good young talent n that made me very enthusiastic with the old regime. System??? pretty archaic.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I agree with everything you said. I would also like to add that, in order to beat QBs like Brady/Manning/Brees, etc. you have to be able to shake things up on defense. Give those guys things they've never seen before so they can't peg you down before the ball is even snapped. I'm no Mangini apologist, but the scheme he and Ryan concocted against the Saints in 2010 is the perfect example of what a D needs to be capable of doing at times.
I think that was one of the biggest problems we've had the last two years on both sides of the ball. Everything seemed to be a one-size-fits-all. We very rarely adjusted scheme to expose another team's weakness or make the other team adjust. We also very rarely focused on applying the strengths of our players to the actual scheme itself (this was more related to offense than defense).
That was the most frustrating thing for me about the 2011 and 2012 seasons.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I don't have a issue with the34 .I said years ago when Rac was here it was my favorite scheme as long as it was a attack style and not a read-n-react. When they brought Horton in it was going to change. The HC likes the 34, and thats what they went to. However they're filling the biggest holes now which is the smart thing to do. It won't take this D long to get going.
Based on what? Kruger?
Because other than him we haven't signed any other legit. starter. Just some underachieving depth guys. We're really only one player better off than we were before Horton got here.
I don't see why so many get so excited about a couple of second tier guys being signed. Sounds just like the last bunch who just left with the only real acception being the signing of Kruger.
And as was mentioned, they created their own need in terms of needing depth of 3-4 players. It's nice to see we are signing some players that at least know Hortons 3-4 but other than Kruger, none of them seem to be high quality players.
And that's so exciting to people how again?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And as was mentioned, they created their own need in terms of needing depth of 3-4 players.
Say we didn't switch to the 3-4, what would we have needed on defense? A pass rushing defensive end, an outside linebacker, a free safety, and a corner (or two).
We didn't stay with the 4-3, so now we need: a pass rushing outside linebacker, a defensive end, a free safety, and a corner (or two).
Am I missing something?
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Bryant was arguably the best DT on the market and Kruger the best 3-4 OLB...that's never easy to do, getting the best DT and pass rusher
I'm as big as skeptic as you regarding this regime, but they're doing a good job so far
#gmstrong
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Based on what? Kruger?
Because other than him we haven't signed any other legit. starter.
Wrong. Desmond Bryant will start a DE/DT in the Browns new hybrid defense and was a legit pass rushing DT.
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In the span of less than day, the Cleveland Browns transformed their defensive front seven from a respectable unit into one to be reckoned with.
Cleveland helped kick off the NFL’s free-agent period by signing Paul Kruger away from Baltimore, then helped punctuate Tuesday evening’s activity with the addition of defensive tackle Desmond Bryant.
Both deals are pricey — Kruger at about $8 million per season, Bryant at five years and $34 million. But with those two in place, plus OLB Jabaal Sheard, DE Ahtyba Rubin, NT Phil Taylor, ILB D’Qwell Jackson and either James-Michael Johnson or Chris Gocong at the other ILB spot, Cleveland is set up for a quick transition to the 3-4.
They’re also in prime position to improve on a defense that ranked 23rd in yards allowed and 19th in points last season (not to mention 25th against the pass). All this while Pittsburgh struggles with the salary cap, Baltimore endures a roster migration and Cincinnati plays it relatively low key.
The Browns still have a ways to go before they’re considered an AFC contender, but they made meaningful progress Tuesday.
Bryant had 10.5 sacks over the past three seasons in Oakland. He’s a high-motor guy more than capable of dropping into the Browns’ 3-4 after playing in the Raiders’ 4-3.
Bryant does have a couple of red flags — most notably, his recent arrest on the charge of criminal mischief; he also was hospitalized during a game last year due to an accelerated heartbeat. Still, he rated as the league’s sixth best DT or NT last season, according to Pro Football Focus, above Pro Bowler Henry Melton.
As for Bryant’s contract, the Browns are a bit in the not-all-that-uncommon situation of occasionally having to overpay free agents to come to Cleveland. That’s part of the cost of struggling year after year.
Grade: A-minus. Knock on the money spent here, if you want — and, in the long run, you might be proven right. But Bryant is a terrific get for the Browns as they revamp their D.
Share this:
http://nfl.si.com/2013/03/12/desmond-bryant-signs-with-cleveland-browns/
Go Browns!!
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The articles at the end of the season are all that matter. A writer singing praises for what they project on paper is as meaningless as a Draft grade given before the first Mini-Camp has even taken place. I'll save my excitement for when this group actually does something on a field.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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If I were to try to put statistics on it....
The board is comprised of 50% homers who rationalize any decision made as the best one possible.
A very vocal 15% who thinks all any Browns front office decision is the wrong one.
And then there are the 35% who try to see things for what they are.
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For me I knew the conversion to the 34 was going to be an overhaul. I knew that going in.
We now have 2 starters in Kruger and Bryant and a rotational guy in Groves added to our front 7. We're not close to done. And we have pieces that are more valuable in a 43 than what they project to be in this 34. It makes sense that they'd be considered in trade. We'll probably see at least one guy moved by the end of training camp, maybe two out of Sheard, Taylor and Rubin.
If I'm a betting man DQ stays but I think it's more of a function of his salary preventing an amicable trade than anything else. I expect to see a dropoff in his play this year but heck he may surprise. People keep bringing up Washington and he was apparently really effective so that's a good reason to be hopeful.
So wedge me into that 35%.
I think we took a few steps backward with the 34 change. But it's the scheme that is preferred top to bottom in this new organization. Chud thinks it's much harder from a QB perspective to play against so I'm ok with it.
And we took a couple steps forward with the signings thus far...but we're nothing but a mid to lower tier defense as it stands today. Hopefully with the draft and another signing or two we can be an average defense this year.
And that'd be one heck of an improvement overall.
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Vers, you were happy the previous SIX running the 3-4? The GLORIOUS 3-4 we ran under Ryan got us two 5-11 seasons. Under RAC before him got us ONE winning season and our D SUCKED that year.
The premise they are going by is that our current roster was BETTER suited for a 3-4. That's what you've been harping about since Chud was hired. He will change his system to fit our current players..... so that means our current players are BETTER suited for our new D right? GREAT. LOVE that. I can expect a GREAT defense starting in September because our former regime were idiots playing all of our players out of position..All these defensive tackles we are collecting will pay off..... ..
The real truth is we were far better suited to run a 4-3. They could have changed philosophy of how to RUN our 4-3 to attack..... But talent wise we were a LOT farther along building a 4-3. They decided to make HUGE holes on this roster. So I don't want to hear excuses that we don't have the players to run it. Come September I expect to see a top notch defense.
They can sign ten more defensive tackles. Fine with me. They seem to be collecting them for some strange reason. But I better see wins come September.....
Last edited by Spiritbro77; 03/13/13 05:42 PM.
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Say we didn't switch to the 3-4, what would we have needed on defense? A pass rushing defensive end, an outside linebacker, a free safety, and a corner (or two).
We didn't stay with the 4-3, so now we need: a pass rushing outside linebacker, a defensive end, a free safety, and a corner (or two).
Am I missing something?
You're missing quite a bit.
We have some very talented people on our D that produced quite well in the 4-3.
That in no way indicates they will do well in the 3-4.
More often than not, players don't transfer well from one scheme to the other. Just watch how many people we had playing well in the 4-3 that won't produce nearly as well as in the 3-4.
Then you'll get it. Until then, people are so convinced that everyone will just transfer SO WELL!
We'll know very soon......
Reality will bite!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
The board is comprised of 50% homers who rationalize any decision made as the best one possible.
A very vocal 15% who thinks all any Browns front office decision is the wrong one.
And then there are the 35% who try to see things for what they are.
...and 99% of the posters think they're part of that 35%.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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lol i was thinking the same thing
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#gmstrong
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We have some very talented people on our D that produced quite well in the 4-3.
individually sure. but we haven't had a productive defense in years.
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Quote:
Quote:
The board is comprised of 50% homers who rationalize any decision made as the best one possible.
A very vocal 15% who thinks all any Browns front office decision is the wrong one.
And then there are the 35% who try to see things for what they are.
...and 99% of the posters think they're part of that 35%.
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While those player may have never played in the 3-4, they do not create a hole (for now). Sheard, Taylor, et cetera will play for us in 2013 in the 3-4. Those are not holes. Holes are when you do not have a player to play that position. We have players, they are just question marks.
You would agree that there is a non-zero chance that Sheard can play outside linebacker in the 3-4, right?
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The real truth is we were far better suited to run a 4-3. They could have changed philosophy of how to RUN our 4-3 to attack..... But talent wise we were a LOT farther along building a 4-3. They decided to make HUGE holes on this roster. So I don't want to hear excuses that we don't have the players to run it. Come September I expect to see a top notch defense.
They can sign ten more defensive tackles. Fine with me. They seem to be collecting them for some strange reason. But I better see wins come September.....
And obviously they are collecting them because we didn't have what they needed for the 3-4.
But people seem to eat up everything this FO feeds them and are being spoon fed garbage. Hope it tastes good to them.
Like you, if we were just as close or closer to the 3-4 as we were the 4-3, then with these FA signings, I won't accept ANY excuses on D this year.
But we will see all of the excuse makers coming forward if that doesn't happen.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You would agree that there is a non-zero chance that Sheard can play outside linebacker in the 3-4, right?
No, I believe if anyone of our current roster has a good chance to transfer to the 3-4, it would be sheard.
And while we do have "bodies" to play all the positions, to feel, expect and think they will play as well in the 3-4 as they did in the 4-3 is nothing more than a pipe dream.
The ones who transfer sub par in the 3-4 are indeed holes needed to be filled. No matter how you spin that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
Like you, if we were just as close or closer to the 3-4 as we were the 4-3, then with these FA signings, I won't accept ANY excuses on D this year.
Excuses for what? For going 6-10? For not being able to get off the field in crucial situations? For not being able to put teams away?
As I see it, if this team is as good or better next year on defense, you will do whatever you need to do in order to not give any credit to the new regime that you loath so much..
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
Like you, if we were just as close or closer to the 3-4 as we were the 4-3, then with these FA signings, I won't accept ANY excuses on D this year.
I asked you earlier and you didn't respond. What did we need when free agency started that we wouldn't have needed had we stuck with the 4-3.
With the 4-3: DE - Sheard,??? DT - Taylor, Rubin OLB - ???, ??? MLB - Jackson CB - Haden, ???, ??? S - Ward, ???
With the 3-4: DE - Taylor, ??? NT - Rubin OLB - Sheard, ??? MLB - Jackson, ??? CB - Haden, ???, ??? S- Ward, ???
I understand the concerns with Sheard converting to OLB. No one knows what will happen. I do know that coming out of college (only two years ago) he was projected to be a 3-4 outside linebacker.
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