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That has never applied to the court of public opinion.
The FBI has recordings stating the Jimmy knew things, so it's going to get ugly.
What does the court of public opinion mean? Nothing.
The public can think a guy is guilty all they want, but that won't put him in jail.
There was public opinion that Richard Jewell was guilty,, FBI said they had evidence.. How did that work out?
Just sayin
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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j/c
Regardless how this shakes out, Haslam is a liar, a con man, a thief and a cheat. Nothing he said in his press conference is true. His greed, his need to make more money than he could legally, (which of course was hundreds of millions,) has put him, his company, his family and the Browns at risk. He will likely attempt to scapegoat this, and he may even slime his way out of jail time, but he is, at his core, just another lowlife criminal who steals from the public, conning them to participate by making promises he never intended to deliver on. This speaks to character, and it speaks to who he is as a person and as the Browns owner. JMHO
Wow, I am surprised you didn't put up a picture of Jimmy with horns. 
I didn't say he was evil, I said he was criminal. You can add POS to that as well, if you like. 
Not for nothin, but what the hell ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"
True. However, by the information being presented in the affadavit and the nature of FBI work, they wouldn't of raided the office with four search warrants if something wasn't up....to what level, we don't know yet.
As much as I believe in the phrase- 'innocent until proven guilty', I also believe in 'perception equals reality'. What other businesses want to get involved with a Browns' partnership with the trust factor now thrown out the window? How many possible businesses in Cleveland won't get involved in the fear of getting screwed by Haslem? How will the NFL look at the Cleveland Browns with Haslem owning the team? This will reverberate to so many other factors beyond Cleveland Browns football it's sickening.
How can anyone trust Haslem after this? Company wrongdoing is apparent. How far it goes up the chain of command with come to light sooner or later. Either way, it will be perceived Haslem is a swindler within the business community. And it will have an effect. I wonder how FirstEnergy is feeling right about now?
PNC Bank?
The Cleveland Clinic?
Etc.
And I actually feel confident with Joe Banner maintaining the daily operations during all this nonsense. His past experience as President in Philly does provide some sort of consolation prize during all of this.
Yeah,, The FBI never gets it wrong... Richard Jewell
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c
Regardless how this shakes out, Haslam is a liar, a con man, a thief and a cheat. Nothing he said in his press conference is true. His greed, his need to make more money than he could legally, (which of course was hundreds of millions,) has put him, his company, his family and the Browns at risk. He will likely attempt to scapegoat this, and he may even slime his way out of jail time, but he is, at his core, just another lowlife criminal who steals from the public, conning them to participate by making promises he never intended to deliver on. This speaks to character, and it speaks to who he is as a person and as the Browns owner. JMHO
Wow, I am surprised you didn't put up a picture of Jimmy with horns.
I didn't say he was evil, I said he was criminal. You can add POS to that as well, if you like.
Not for nothin, but what the hell ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"
If I were sitting on a jury, that would apply in my deliberations. However, as a citizen, watching his pressers, and absorbing the information in the affidavit, I stand by my opinion, having the proof I need. Courtroom acquittal, doesn't always equate to innocence, so if you're waiting for someone else to make your decision regarding his guilt or innocence for you, that's certainly your choice.
I'm merely waiting for proof.. Saying you have proof and showing it,, Two different things..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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You're equating this to the Richard Jewell case and believe that somehow disparages the hundreds of thousands of successful arrests and convictions? Okay. Chew on this for a moment: "During FY 2011, cases pursued by the FBI resulted in 242 indictments/informations and 241 convictions of corporate criminals." LinkThose were just the Corporate Fraud cases.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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What does the court of public opinion mean? Nothing.
It means a lot... maybe not in whether a guy goes to jail but in terms of how the franchise is viewed it means a lot.
Remember William Kennedy Smith? The Kennedy that raped that chick on the beach in Florida back in the early 90s? In the court of public opinion he was and always will be rapist, in reality he was acquitted, went to medical school and is now a doctor that devotes his time to his non-profit that promotes the abilities of handicapped people around the world and he is also heavily involved in a group against landmines... but if you say the name to most people old enough to remember, he's a rapist or at best he's a rich kid who used his family influence to get away with it.
I don't care how this turns out, in the minds of a lot of people, Jimmy Haslam is now and always will be a rich guy who got richer screwing the little guy... and that won't play well around the NFL... doesn't matter whether he really did or not.
yebat' Putin
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Just chiming in with my two cents worth...
I think, at least to me, this is a major black-eye for the franchise. At least it is a black-eye when I think of the organization. Personally I am not all that thrilled about a crook that rips off small unsophisticated businesses. It stinks. Its hard to want to root for it.
I have a feeling the feds are going to nail him for this one especially if they have been investigating for two years now. They typically do a pretty good job in hammering the people they go after...
I guess the worst for this franchise is that it means we could get a new owner and another rebuild which I am used to anyway. What is a few more 4-12 seasons anyway?
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j/c Over under, the Browns are up for federal auction? 12 months? I'm going with the under. 
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that's the thing though. the Richard Jewell case was a rushed operation that the FBI doesn't like to do. basically forced to hurry things from public pressure.
that is not the case here. it was a methodical, strategic takedown. i doubt they executed the warrant unless they already felt like they had enough.
now, it might not prove to be enough, but, at this point, it's very likely that Haslam is dirty. and that stinks for us.
#gmstrong
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j/c
Over under, the Browns are up for federal auction? 12 months?
I'm going with the under.
That's it... I'm cashing in my pop bottle collection!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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j/c
Over under, the Browns are up for federal auction? 12 months?
I'm going with the under.
That's it... I'm cashing in my pop bottle collection!
you know what they say, buy low, sell low? 
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'Cleveland Browns owner Jimmy Haslam's travel center company, Pilot Flying J, has engaged in fraud for 'many years', FBI says' http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/04/cleveland_browns_owner_jimmy_h_1.htmlBy John Caniglia, The Plain Dealer on April 18, 2013 at 5:45 PM, updated April 19, 2013 at 7:34 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland Browns owner Jimmy Haslam’s travel center company for “many years” engaged in a fraud scheme to keep millions of dollars owed to customers as gas rebates, according to documents filed in federal court Thursday. The documents (read the full text of two court documents in the viewer below) further say Haslam knew about the fraud committed by top sales officials at his family business, Pilot Flying J, in which employees fleeced unsophisticated trucking companies through a company-wide rebate program, the documents say. A 120-page affidavit for a search warrant filed in U.S. District Court in Knoxville, Tenn., says Pilot Flying J sales employees withheld fuel price rebates and discounts from certain companies to boost the profitability of the company and increase their sales commissions. The affidavit says FBI and IRS agents are investigating charges of conspiracy, mail fraud and wire fraud. The document says “the rebate fraud has occurred with the knowledge of Pilot’s current President Mark Hazelwood and Pilot’s Chief Executive Officer James A. “Jimmy” Haslam III, due to the fact that the rebate fraud-related activities have been discussed during sales meetings in Knoxville, Tenn., in which Hazelwood and Haslam have been present.” One employee, the company’s regional sales manager, told a confidential informant that his role in the rebate fraud cost customers $70,000 to $90,000 a month, the affidavit says. The document says several employees were linked to the scheme. In a meeting three to four years ago, the affidavit says, Haslam thanked an employee who was part of the scheme for saving the company money. The affidavit does not specifically cite whether Haslam was referring to the so-called rebate scheme. FBI and IRS agents used the affidavit to obtain a judge’s permission to search four buildings at Pilot Flying J and two homes belonging to sales people. The company is the nation’s largest chain of truck stops and travel centers and the sixth-largest privately owned company in America. The document’s unsealing came as Haslam visited the Browns’ training facility in Berea. He did not meet with reporters. In a statement, Haslam said: “I read the affidavits and I understand more clearly the questions the federal investigators are exploring. I maintain that the foundation of this company is built on its integrity and that any willful wrongdoing by any employee of this company at any time is intolerable. “We will continue to cooperate with the federal investigation and continue our own investigation in these allegations. I value the relationships we have with our customers, our vendors and our team members across this country and regret that they have to go through this with us, but I trust and believe their faith in this company and its principles has never been misplaced.” A spokesman for the NFL declined to comment on Haslam. On Tuesday, Haslam, meeting with reporters, said the company disagreed with the government’s allegations. On Thursday, the unsealing of the document stunned the trucking world, Cleveland and its football fans. The document, written by an FBI agent who specializes in public corruption and white-collar crime, said the investigation began May 4, 2011, when a source told the FBI that Pilot employees had been fleecing some companies who were “too unsophisticated to catch that their agreed-upon deal with Pilot was being changed to benefit Pilot without the knowledge of those customers.” The affidavit says Brian Mosher, the director of sales for national accounts, spoke with employees during a sales meeting in November. The meeting was recorded by a cooperating witness for the FBI. Mosher stressed dealing with unsophisticated companies in the scheme. “Some of ‘em, some of ‘em don’t know what a spreadsheet is,” Mosher said. “I’m not kiddin’. So, again, my point is this: Know your customer.¤.¤. If the guy’s sophisticated and he truly has gone out and gotten deals from other competitors and he’s getting daily prices from us, don’t jack his discounts, ‘cause he’s gonna know, okay?” The document said that if a customer was due a $10,000 rebate, Mosher would cut it to $7,500. An informant said Mosher cut the rebates to customers “because it made more money for Pilot, and it increased the commission that Mosher and any other Pilot sales person responsible for the customer would receive.” The affidavit alleges the scheme took place for at least seven years. One company, W.N. Morehouse Truckline of Omaha, Neb., lost nearly $150,000 in the scheme in a span of seven years, the affidavit says. Another company discovered the scheme on its own. Western Express of Nashville audited its bill and calculated that it had been shorted $1 million, although a Haslam employee was recorded estimating the total Western fraud at $5 million. When Western told Pilot Flying J about the shortfall, the two companies negotiated an unusual settlement. John Freeman, Pilot Flying J’s vice president for sales, offered to cut the business a check. Instead, Western asked Pilot Flying J to buy a plane, for which Western owed $1 million. “So, I bought the (expletive) airplane,” Freeman told colleagues in a conversation secretly recorded by the FBI informant. “It was so broke that the (expletive) wasn’t airworthy. So we had to sell it in Nashville.” The Western payback became legendary among the company sales force, which joked about it during many of the meetings that the FBI informant secretly recorded. In a conversation on Feb. 6, Freeman talked about how the deal fell apart. The conversation, according to the document, went like this: “What does Mark (Hazelwood) and Jimmy (Haslam) say about (expletive) like that,” the informant said. “(Expletive),” Freeman said. “I mean, I called Jimmy and told him I got busted at Western Express.” “What did he say?” the informant asked. “Oh, he knew it,” Freeman responded. “Oh, he did?” “Absolutely. I mean, he knew all along that I was cost-plussin’ this guy. He knew it all along. Loved it. We were making $450,000 a month on him.” The joke went even further. In one conversation in October, sales workers discussed an employee who had been making the system over-complicated and had been “busted” a few times. “Yeah, he hadn’t had to buy an airplane yet, but he had a couple of hang-gliders,” one said, as they laughed. (end) With Plain Dealer reporter Alison Grant.
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P.S. Jimmy's in trouble. Not a huge amount of trouble, but trouble nonetheless. But i'm thinking he has enough money to buy himself out of this. Basically it looks like he was shortchanging some of the companies he does business with, through rebates. -Welcome to America! 
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You're equating this to the Richard Jewell case and believe that somehow disparages the hundreds of thousands of successful arrests and convictions? Okay.
Chew on this for a moment:
"During FY 2011, cases pursued by the FBI resulted in 242 indictments/informations and 241 convictions of corporate criminals."
Link
Those were just the Corporate Fraud cases.
How many of those were Cuyahoga County Execs...LOL
Seriously, I'm just saying, let them do their jobs,, if he's found guilty,, Fine.. if not, then I won't be one of the ones that didn't give it time to develop,, you will.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Who needs time, just waterboard Banner. He'll sing before the first drop lands. 
#GMSTRONG
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Who needs time, just waterboard Banner. He'll sing before the first drop lands.
While you're at it, see if you can get him to cop to drafting the kicker...
yebat' Putin
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Who needs time, just waterboard Banner. He'll sing before the first drop lands.
While you're at it, see if you can get him to cop to drafting the kicker...
1st round or 2nd?
#GMSTRONG
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I never trusted Haslam in the first place!!! If he committed tax fraud while he was defrauding his customers in an attempt to cover his tracks...this is a crime which makes him a criminal! For those not worrying about the possible damage to the Cleveland Browns...the damage has already been done! The list of potential/likely damages is too long to list. 
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You're equating this to the Richard Jewell case and believe that somehow disparages the hundreds of thousands of successful arrests and convictions? Okay.
Chew on this for a moment:
"During FY 2011, cases pursued by the FBI resulted in 242 indictments/informations and 241 convictions of corporate criminals."
Link
Those were just the Corporate Fraud cases.
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jc Judging from the tone of the posts, I guess we are skipping the trail and proceeding to sentencing, that being guilty as not charged, correct? 
GO BROWNS!
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I guess we are skipping the trail and proceeding to sentencing
Skipping the trail, walking the yellow brick road.... whatever you want to call it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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jc
Judging from the tone of the posts, I guess we are skipping the trail and proceeding to sentencing, that being guilty as not charged, correct?
As a more serious response.... I don't think anyone is charging and convicting anyone right now, but simply based upon the bits that have come out, including the bits of transcripts of some of the recorded conversations that specifically, clearly, and unequivocally state that Halsam knew and approved of these tactics.... it's certainly not looking good at all. They may already have enough of a case in testimony and recording to hang him, and the search seizure warrants may simply be about getting at the records to fully uncover the depth of who is owed how much.
Side note bring the NFL back into it: It's clear now that there were recording devices used.... I wonder if any NFL-level conversations were recorded, and could that perhaps be why some other owners are scared?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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j/c
Over under, the Browns are up for federal auction? 12 months?
I'm going with the under.
I wonder.... will the NFL make him sell the team before that? I don't recall the exact circumstances that lead to DeBartolo being forced to sell the Niners ....
Only in Cleveland..... can it GET any worse? 
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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jc
Judging from the tone of the posts, I guess we are skipping the trail and proceeding to sentencing, that being guilty as not charged, correct?
As a more serious response.... I don't think anyone is charging and convicting anyone right now, but simply based upon the bits that have come out, including the bits of transcripts of some of the recorded conversations that specifically, clearly, and unequivocally state that Halsam knew and approved of these tactics.... it's certainly not looking good at all. They may already have enough of a case in testimony and recording to hang him, and the search seizure warrants may simply be about getting at the records to fully uncover the depth of who is owed how much.
Side note bring the NFL back into it: It's clear now that there were recording devices used.... I wonder if any NFL-level conversations were recorded, and could that perhaps be why some other owners are scared?
Just like politics, it's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, if the 'HELD REBATES?"
were not filed with the corporate taxes, Jimmie and his family could be going away to IRS camp for a long time. Al, may be selling the team again? 
GO BROWNS!
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Anyone wanting to watch Haslam's 4PM presser can do so at the Plain Dealer's site, here: Jimmy Haslam press conference: Watch live streaming video at 4 p.m. | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/04/jimmy_haslam_press_conference.html
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Fair observation. Remember one time when you were cynical. This doesn't have happy ending written on it.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Can anyone post the details so far?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Candidly, there were few updates.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Well, candidly, that was a candidly quick, and quite candidly, candid press conference in which, candidly, I felt that Haslam wanted, candidly, to get across, candidly, that he was speaking candidly .... speaking candidly, of course. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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FWIW
I thought Jimmy was sounded very confident with what is going on. He's obviously gonna fight this until it comes to a point where he can't anymore. But that's IF it comes to a point.
Not sure if anyone caught the last 5-10 seconds of the video feed where the two guys were joking about the "taking the Browns to the Superbowl" reference. alluding to the "going to the bathroom line"....you stay classy Knoxville.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Yeah, he sounded confident, but I have heard absolute crooks stand up and lie convincingly .... and I have heard far too many politicians accused of illegal acts speak ..... so I know that many people have the ability to flat out lie to your face while insisting that they are absolutely innocent of any and all wrongdoing .....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Now to search for a video of it, looks like I missed it. Only thing that I could find on it was on the Knoxville newspaper website that said he is staying as CEO and that was it.
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Yeah, he sounded confident, but I have heard absolute crooks stand up and lie convincingly .... and I have heard far too many politicians accused of illegal acts speak ..... so I know that many people have the ability to flat out lie to your face while insisting that they are absolutely innocent of any and all wrongdoing .....
Hell, isn't that what he did to get all this to where it is in the first place?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Well by the looks of this, we will have a new owner. I doubt Jimmy can buy his way out of this one "if" what is being reported is true...the FBI and the Dept Justice have him by the proverbial Jewels.....if he stays out of prison, he won't have 2 pennies top rub together..the IRS will take him for everything he has in back audits....and thats just getting started. makes you wonder, typical Cleveland...this kinda stuff only happens to us. As much as i hated Junior...at least he isn't a criminal and could keep himself out of trouble.... unreal... 
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truly the laughingstock of the league..
this is ridiculous.
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Yeah, he sounded confident, but I have heard absolute crooks stand up and lie convincingly .... and I have heard far too many politicians accused of illegal acts speak ..... so I know that many people have the ability to flat out lie to your face while insisting that they are absolutely innocent of any and all wrongdoing .....
No doubt. I just added this because some speculated him stepping down or moving aside while the investigation was going on. It's obvious he is not doing that. That's all. Nothing more.
I'm praying that there is something that surfaces that saves him, but it doesn't look good.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Yeah, he sounded confident, but I have heard absolute crooks stand up and lie convincingly .... and I have heard far too many politicians accused of illegal acts speak ..... so I know that many people have the ability to flat out lie to your face while insisting that they are absolutely innocent of any and all wrongdoing .....
No doubt. I just added this because some speculated him stepping down or moving aside while the investigation was going on. It's obvious he is not doing that. That's all. Nothing more.
I'm praying that there is something that surfaces that saves him, but it doesn't look good.
If he did step down, especially after all of the recent attention, it would make him look even more guilty.
Things will only get darker for him tho..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
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Yeah, he sounded confident, but I have heard absolute crooks stand up and lie convincingly .... and I have heard far too many politicians accused of illegal acts speak ..... so I know that many people have the ability to flat out lie to your face while insisting that they are absolutely innocent of any and all wrongdoing .....
Agreed. Add in that he is a person that demands, as a wealthy person, and he "gets"..........it's not just stupid rich athletes that ruin things for themselves........He seems to be coming from the "hey,I'll skate past this if I just show enough confidence" angle.
I wonder what ol' brother Bill is thinking right now.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
I wonder what ol' brother Bill is thinking right now.
probably that running a football team is more fun than running a state. the NFL is more likely to force Jimmy to handoff team control to a family member if this stuff goes to trial (rather than force him to sell - at least until a conviction happens or doesn't happen).
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
Quote:
J/C
The thing that kills me more than anything else is that the league, not once, but twice, did their due diligence on this man ...... and passed him for ownership twice.
Now, in fairness, he bought the team almost a year ago, and there was probably very little hint of this going on ....... but there had to be some clue.
Not really. The Feds are pretty tight lipped during that phase.
I don't know what to make of it.....dissapointing for sure.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802 |
Quote:
I wonder what ol' brother Bill is thinking right now.
That's why you put money in a "blind trust". Zero liability for total BS.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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