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30 Vince Young TEN 2199 357 184 12 13 53 66.7 And this one made the probowl!  That has got to be a first in NFL history. They pretty much (i said pretty much) base it on a couple nice RUNS.....(I did say runs too) and seem to look at he is 30th in rating and i think dead last in accuracy. GO FLIPPIN FIGURE!!!!!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Not a problem. One thing is for sure. We've got to fix the line. The past several years, we've addressed the line via free agency. Our first two picks of each offseason were o-linemen. The line still sucks. Last season was a back breaker for the line. Our newly acquired center goes down first week in practice and we can't find a replacement until the season is practically starting.
This year, we got one starter in Steinbach, but we need more quality starters. It looks to be another year to be frustrated with the o-line.
Upgrade does mean that things get better.........RIGHT?
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One thing I do with young players is to look at a skill set. Each position has a certain skill set that you can evaluate. I will use Willie Green.
Let me stop you right there.. I grant you that there are certain things that scouts and GM's and Coaches all look for in players.. on a RB, one of the things they look for is vision for instance..
But each kid is different. Not many running backs will have the vision of a Jim Brown.. as a result, they may never have the wonderful career that Brown had. But does that make them horrible? Of course not..
I think it's safe to say that Franco Harris wasn't the RB that Jim Brown was,, not close in my eyes (I'll grant you, I'm a browns fan so I may be bias towards Brown).Yet, he helped his team get too and eventually win 4 superbowls.. Not bad for a guy that didn't have the vision and skill set of a Jim Brown don't you think..
I'm only trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to point out that not all successful players fit into the cookie cutter mold that makes it convienient for us to embrace.. And that it doesn't necessarly mean the player can't be successful in the NFL when they don't fit that mold..
Joe Montana (no, I'm not saying Frye is like Montana) didn't have the strongest arm,.,, yet he had something that any QB would be very proud to have,, Smarts and a good sense of where people were going to be. (granted, he had players around him that would do what they were supposed to do also, which didn't hurt). That guy had an uncanny ability to find his receivers in a fog,, more so than any QB I've ever had the pleasure to see in a game..
I don't know right now if Charlie has those skills,,, but here is my point, I don't know that he doesn't either. It's hard to judge after just 20 starts with lousy support and an OC that didn't exactly play to his strengths and an Oline that couldn't protect him worth a darn.. and receivers that dropped too many balls..
Montana had all of that going for him, I'd like to see if we can surround Charlie with some talent and see if that does the trick,,
If it doesn't, then I'll be right there with you, lobbying to get him outta here or at the very least, get someone in that can get the job done.
Just a couple of points that I thought you may want to ponder.... and as always, it's JMO!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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This year, we got one starter in Steinbach, but we need more quality starters. It looks to be another year to be frustrated with the o-line.
Oh man I hope your wrong about that 
I don't know that I could stand another year of this horrid Oline play.. Funny thing is, it's the sum of the parts that hasn't worked.
On his own, Tucker is a good RT, Fraley is a Good Center and Shaffer is average at LT, but lots has been said that his problem may have something to do with Druzzi being beside him... Myself I don't know.
But now throw in Stienbach and maybe Shaffer is ok.. Fraley is solid.. so to me, that leaves the right side weak..
I'm hoping for Thomas in the first so we can move Shaffer to RT, keep STienbach at LG, Fraley at Center and either Tucker at RG or perhaps another pick from this draft or even sowells or this other guy we picked up,, Seth McKinney..
Thomas LT
Stienbach LG
Fraley C
Your pick at RG
Shaffer or Tucker RT
All of a sudden it doesn't look so bleak, but Thomas, like most guys that play that position, is gonna get schooled some his first year or two, so look for more debates about how we drafted wrong after the first time he steps on the field  Hey, it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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This year, we got one starter in Steinbach, but we need more quality starters. It looks to be another year to be frustrated with the o-line.
Oh man I hope your wrong about that
I don't know that I could stand another year of this horrid Oline play.. Funny thing is, it's the sum of the parts that hasn't worked.
On his own, Tucker is a good RT, Fraley is a Good Center and Shaffer is average at LT, but lots has been said that his problem may have something to do with Druzzi being beside him... Myself I don't know.
But now throw in Stienbach and maybe Shaffer is ok.. Fraley is solid.. so to me, that leaves the right side weak..
I'm hoping for Thomas in the first so we can move Shaffer to RT, keep STienbach at LG, Fraley at Center and either Tucker at RG or perhaps another pick from this draft or even sowells or this other guy we picked up,, Seth McKinney..
Thomas LT
Stienbach LG
Fraley C
Your pick at RG
Shaffer or Tucker RT
All of a sudden it doesn't look so bleak, but Thomas, like most guys that play that position, is gonna get schooled some his first year or two, so look for more debates about how we drafted wrong after the first time he steps on the field Hey, it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time.
Tucker is possably the worst RT in the NFL. Why does everyone love him? Here's why - no one notices him because in the 5 years with the team he's only played 2 full seasons. Total together in 5 years he's played 3.8 years worth of games. He's not reliable and never was. He's easily the most overrated Brown. Your response is about to be - "but he's been our best o-lineman since he's been here." Yeah, because Joaquinn Gonzalez, Enoch Demar, Paul Zuskaskus - those are some amazing players 
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Seth or Andruzi will prolly have extended time at one gurad spot till LB comes back. (hopefully by week 8).
IMO...if we dont get Thomas we must take a hoggin guard to play next to Tucker. The only think is i really like the Wright kid (cb) with our 2nd pick. I dont feel like the 3rd round will net us a starter at guard.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Oh bull 
I'm not OverBull. I'm OverToad
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You can win a Superbowl using a QB with a rating in the 70's
But how many actually have in the past 20 years? One? Setting that aside, we're not talking about the team. We're talking about a QB, and a QB that's on thin ice. Even if he gets another shot as the starter, which right now is in serious question, he can't afford to play mediocre football. He's got to prove to Savage that he deserves to keep on as the starter.
And D, please, don't give me that stuff that it's just a number, hehe. QB's who post season after season in the 70's don't keep their jobs unless your name is Mike Vick. We're talking about a limited QB who had the odds against him before he stepped foot in a Browns uniform. Now the organization is looking at other QB's. He can't afford a slow increase in production. He's got to get better now or he's out of a job.
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We keep referring to YEARS of experience.. We shouldn't be talking about years, we should be refering to GAMES.. Frye has 20.. that's it! In realtime experience that's just a shade over 1 year of experience....
Then why even bother with the arguement to have a QB sit and learn? If there's no learning going on when a QB isn't starting, then start rookies no matter where they were drafted and be done with it.
But we both know that isn't the way it works.
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He's had 2 OC's, and possibly the second worst Oline performance
in the last decade. ( I kinda think that Houstons may have actually been worse) He's had receivers that can't hang onto the ball and an inconsistent running game in those 20 games...
That didn't save David Carr's job, Tim Couch's job, Kelly Holcomb's job, and it's not going to save Charlie Frye's job.
You continue to point at the deficiencies of others in a way to absolve Frye of his shortcomings. It can't be done. Issues of others couldn't cover up the deficiciences of Couch, and they can't with Frye. The only thing that can be argued is that it's slowing his developement. I agree. But in this league, that doesn't matter. You have to overcome the odds and be solid or you're out of a job.
Rule #1 in all of life is that life isn't fair. It isn't fair that Frye got put on a bad team. Sorry. It isn't fair that he wasn't blessed with a big arm. Sorry. It isn't fair that he wasn't blessed with the natural ability to smoothly transition into the NFL. Sorry. It wasn't fair that other QB's weren't blessed with Frye's ability to escape pressure and buy time. Life isn't fair, and just like most of the above, Frye is going to have to overcome that unfairness.
That's just the way the league works.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Tucker is possably the worst RT in the NFL.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Your response is about to be - "but he's been our best o-lineman since he's been here." Yeah, because Joaquinn Gonzalez, Enoch Demar, Paul Zuskaskus - those are some amazing players
actually, I wasn't gonna say that at all,,, I was kinda gonna change my stance and agree with you,,, but since you were snotty about,,,, Forget that
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I dont buy into all this Tucker is the worst RT in the league stuff. You surround players with talent around them they will look night and day different than before. I heard the same stuff on.... O'Hara - starter in NY , not near as bad looking with talent around him Faine - starter in NO , ditto Oben - Won a Superbowl and played several years adequate and was given the Worsed LT title like Tucker is now. I ain saying alot of our castoffs arent...i just feel with a little guard help (Steinbach with Shaffer) and (Bentley or draft pick with Tucker) these guys games will look tremendously different. To call him the Worse is pretty much hard to do at this point. I seem to remember a few years back people on this site and around the league calling the Sandyeggo OL as prolly 2nd to us at the bottom of the league.  They went on to go 12-4 the following year.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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He couldn't be more wrong about Tucker. Nobody says he's a pro-bowler, but he's the kind of right tackle that starts on virtually every team out there.
For what it's worth, the Scouts Inc scouting report grades him as a 75. On their scale, that's an above-average starter.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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but he's the kind of right tackle that starts on virtually every team out there.
My point exactly!
Not a stud but adequate would be my take.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Oh bull
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I'm not OverBull. I'm OverToad
LOL,,, Have I told you lately how much I enjoy our debates... It's more fun that a barrel of naked monkeys...(did I say that out loud )
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Setting that aside, we're not talking about the team. We're talking about a QB, and a QB that's on thin ice.
Again, how do you know that.. He might have pictures of Randy with a goat for all we know I promise, if he does, he's starting,, no doubt!
But really, for all we know, charlie could be very very well thought of by RAC and Phil.. Granted there have been plenty of rumors about us going for another QB like Green or in the draft... but as of this moment, they've done nothing to give me the impression that a change is imminent..
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Even if he gets another shot as the starter, which right now is in serious question,
Why, because of rumors and articles that have been written lately about Green and Carr? Toad Toad Toad,, you know as well as I, they may be true and it could very well be smoke.. But you believe what you want.. As if you need my permission
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And D, please, don't give me that stuff that it's just a number, hehe.
But Toad, it is just a number.... Oh man, do I really have to do some research to verify it for you....man, don't make me do that,, I'm tired and ugly and my mother dresses me funny,, don't make me work that hard...Geez
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Then why even bother with the arguement to have a QB sit and learn? If there's no learning going on when a QB isn't starting, then start rookies no matter where they were drafted and be done with it.
But we both know that isn't the way it works.
Well, if we both know that isn't how it works,,, then why did you bring it up,,, you must then agree with me
Yea, we both know that, but you seem to be insisting that time in terms of years is what dictates experience.. That's not so. Time on the bench (in the case of a QB only) is where he learns to think like an NFL QB.. Then he goes out and gets his head handed to him on the field,, That's when he feels like an NFL QB.. But nothing replaces time on field... That's game time,,, 60 minutes at a crack,,, not years. But that's just an opinion...
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That didn't save David Carr's job, Tim Couch's job, Kelly Holcomb's job, and it's not going to save Charlie Frye's job.
If you ask me,, Carr never had a line,,,
Tell me something, if you owned a team,, would you spend all the time and money to get a star QB in the 1st round and then send him to the meat market unprotected,,, to me that's just stupid... Houston did it and so has Cleveland... and the result is the same,,, They have ruined thier young big money investment.. (did you notice that Chris Palmer was the HC here when we did that to Couch, and the OC in Houston when it was done to Carr)
I don't know if Couch or Carr would have ever been All Pros,,, no way to tell now for Couch.. But I know they would have had a better chance with some protection. ( Holcomb didn't have a career to save)
It's just my opinion,, but at some point the carosel has gotta stop.. You can't continue to make the same organizational mistakes over and over again and expect the results to be different.. sorry but that's just crazy!
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You continue to point at the deficiencies of others in a way to absolve Frye of his shortcomings.
Whoa there big fella,,,, while I do point to the deficiencies of others,, the reason isn't to absolve Frye of anything.. That's way wrong... I don't do it for that reason..
I do take the time to point out things that contribute to the lack of success of this offense under Charlie Frye and Charlies lack of success,, no doubt,, but to absolve him,, no way man... no way.
If we had a line, if we had receivers that could catch on a consistent basis, if we had receivers that ran proper routes (as you know it's the contention by many on here that our receivers haven't been good at that) if we had decent playcalling, if we had a consistent running game,, and Frye did the same things he did last season,, have no fear, you would be fighting me for space on the "dump him now" bandwagon.... (here's where I should point out that if my father was Al Lerner, I woudn't even be talking to you on this board,, I'd be on my boat with the March Playmate of the month )
But that's not the case is it.. we didn't have a decent line (I know, it's debatable), we didn't have receivers that could follow the playbook and catch the ball, we didn't have good playcalling and our running game was not consistent...
I know I'm asking for perfection they way I've said it here,, and we both know perfection is difficult to achieve.. But this team, at least offensively, is so far from perfection that it's not funny... maybe we could succeed without the great receivers that never drop balls if the line worked well together.. or perhaps we could have overcome a problem with the running game if our receivers were more productive... I don't know.. But asking a young QB to overcome all of that at once,,, geez
So hey,, it's all Fryes fault... now that's sound thinking... 
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Rule #1 in all of life is that life isn't fair. It isn't fair that Frye got put on a bad team. Sorry. It isn't fair that he wasn't blessed with a big arm. Sorry. It isn't fair that he wasn't blessed with the natural ability to smoothly transition into the NFL. Sorry. It wasn't fair that other QB's weren't blessed with Frye's ability to escape pressure and buy time. Life isn't fair, and just like most of the above, Frye is going to have to overcome that unfairness.
The only thing that's unfair Toad,, is when we go out there, Draft someone, feed him to the wolves, give him no weapons, and expect perfection..
Under your thinking, Bradshaw, Elway, Aikman and others would never have ever been alowed to grow, learn and improve in the sport... that my friend would be UNFAIR!
Let's you and I face it,, we aren't gonna agree on Frye until it's done and over with.. either he makes it and does us proud, or he totally flops.. Until that day, we aren't gonna agree...
I'm ok with that by the way... I sure hope you are 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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How do you know Frye has bad timing again? I'm sure with your analysis, you took into account the FACT that has been brought up many times and been ignored that the receivers were running the wrong routes most occasions. Now, if you are a student of QB play, you will know that you have to hold the ball longer if you don't know if a receiver is going to actually run the right route. So, how can you say that Frye doesn't have good timing while knowing that the receivers aren't running the right routes? On to arm strength. You are just flat out wrong that Frye doesn't have an adequate arm. This is simply a case of a few people spewing that on the board and others repeating it and it becomes repeated so often that it is believed. Have you been to training camp or practice to watch Frye throw? I have and he can make ALL the throws. Daman pointed this out a couple weeks ago....there is a difference between ability and performance. Frye has the ability as he has proven on the practice field and during the combine. He hasn't had the performance. There has been a debate all offseason as to why, some of it of his own doing and some of it others doing. SImply stated, no one knows what Frye can or can't do....oir what Savage is doing. He could be bringing Green in to tutor another QB or even to let Frye sit and learn for a year. It could be a smokescreen (after all Green has only said he would go along with a trade to Miami and without him redoing his contract, no one is going to trade for him), or it could be to mentor Frye. No one knows. I do know that Green has had a great line and a HUGE running game. OT, I'll bring this up again since you're so stuck on Frye being in the 80s on his QB rating....what was Elway's career QB rating again? 75 wasn't it?
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Have you been to training camp or practice to watch Frye throw? I have and he can make ALL the throws. Daman pointed this out a couple weeks ago....there is a difference between ability and performance.
Dang, that Daman fellow is Brilliant,, simply Brilliant ,,,,Isn't he
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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How do you know Frye has bad timing again? I'm sure with your analysis, you took into account the FACT that has been brought up many times and been ignored that the receivers were running the wrong routes most occasions. Now, if you are a student of QB play, you will know that you have to hold the ball longer if you don't know if a receiver is going to actually run the right route. So, how can you say that Frye doesn't have good timing while knowing that the receivers aren't running the right routes?
On to arm strength. You are just flat out wrong that Frye doesn't have an adequate arm. This is simply a case of a few people spewing that on the board and others repeating it and it becomes repeated so often that it is believed. Have you been to training camp or practice to watch Frye throw? I have and he can make ALL the throws. Daman pointed this out a couple weeks ago....there is a difference between ability and performance. Frye has the ability as he has proven on the practice field and during the combine. He hasn't had the performance. There has been a debate all offseason as to why, some of it of his own doing and some of it others doing.
SImply stated, no one knows what Frye can or can't do....oir what Savage is doing. He could be bringing Green in to tutor another QB or even to let Frye sit and learn for a year. It could be a smokescreen (after all Green has only said he would go along with a trade to Miami and without him redoing his contract, no one is going to trade for him), or it could be to mentor Frye. No one knows. I do know that Green has had a great line and a HUGE running game.
OT, I'll bring this up again since you're so stuck on Frye being in the 80s on his QB rating....what was Elway's career QB rating again? 75 wasn't it?
There people go, putting words into my mouth. Did I EVER say that Frye did not have adequate arm strength? NO! I said he does not have great arm strength. I said great arm strength can make up for alot. Frye has adequate arm strenght, but he has poor timing!
So bad route running is the scapegoat now. Hogwash. If the players aren't able to run routes, then we have a coaching problem. Even still, all of the problems I see with Frye can't be attributed to bad routes!
As for going to training camp. WHO CARES about practice. Practice! we're talking about practice??!!!?? Puuuuhhhllleeeaaasssseee. GAME TIME!!!! That what I see. GAME PLAY. That's what I care about. PRACTICE? I could care less about how GREAT he practices if it doesn't translate at GAME TIME!!!!!
Last edited by TENNDAWG; 04/06/07 05:28 PM.
Upgrade does mean that things get better.........RIGHT?
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Hogwash? Please, there is one of two things going on. You aren't aware that it has been WELL DOCUMENTED that the receivers consistently ran the wrong routes, rounded off the routes, and even lined up in the wrong place or you don't understand the game enough to know the effect it would have on a QB. This isn't a "scapegoat", it is a fact.
As for your using your Iverson impression, remember the moron you are using to make a point of is often ridiculed for his ignorance in downplaying the importance of practice. It doesn't translate to "game time" because there is a pass rush that the OL can't take care of and receivers are running the wrong routes. You may not understand that every player's performance directly affects another. Others do understand that concept. YOU may not care about practice, but the POINT is that Frye has the physical abiility to make the throws. You never "said" that Frye didn't have an adequate arm, but you certainly implied it.
This isn't the crap board you're used to posting on. If you're going to dismiss facts because they don't suit your arguement (like the well documented fact of receivers running the wrong route), don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.
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Who the H are you to talk to anyone about not being taken too seriously...?
I would like to know once and for all who died and left you the all knowing football authority anywhere. Especially here...?
So the sole reason CF is not accurate is his WR's run the wrong routes all the time...? Who the H are you trying to kid man... All WR's make mistakes and cut routes short, misread coverage’s, let their timing get disrupted among a myriad of others errors...
CF calls the wrong protection packages, misreads coverage’s, continually makes the same mental errors, isn't consistent with his release points, drops and timing... Period. Weather he has sufficient time or not.
I don't think CF is the answer, has "it". Has he had a "fair" opportunity? IMO, no. Does he need more time to mature, IMO, yes. He will need a couple of more years considering where he is right now, IMO. The game is still too fast for him, he's not seeing the field well at all, and his throws are all over the place... Has there been too much thrown at CF and too much change, hell yes...
The excuse that WR’s poor route running is the primary reason CF has stunk up the place is totally insane, asinine. And I’m not buying that load of crap… So stop peddling that load of poo… CF’s poor performance has been a combination of many things... Mostly CF’s inability to adjust to the NFL in real time...
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As for going to training camp. WHO CARES about practice. Practice! we're talking about practice??!!!??
i think the point is that if he can make a throw in practice, then he can make it in a game....
and arm strength isn't everthing...vicks got it and he's all over the place....so does boller, and man does he suck...
a guy like charlie who has adequate arm strength has to anticipate more....i from what i'm reading about our recievers thats pretty difficult since they were confused more often then not...well edwards and winslow anyway...ya know just the 2 guys that we supposedly modeled our offense around...
so how is frye supposed to accel if his recievers aren't at the spot he throws to...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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You can debate semantics, but not 3 OCs.
Where is all this Charlie played under 3 OC's stuff coming from?  Honest question. Carthon, Davidson and ?? Same system, dumbed down plays....how hard can it be?
#gmstrong
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As for going to training camp. WHO CARES about practice. Practice! we're talking about practice??!!!??
Tenn, only in the sense that he can throw the ball well enough,, in practice you can see that.. for you to belittle Camp time,,, well, I think that's incredibly poor judgement,, but you are entitled to your opinion.. if you feel that what happens at practice doesn't matter, then more power to ya...
You will be alone in that thinking.. I would hope that nobody else would follow that lead!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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I dont buy into all this Tucker is the worst RT in the league stuff. You surround players with talent around them they will look night and day different than before.
I heard the same stuff on....
O'Hara - starter in NY , not near as bad looking with talent around him
Faine - starter in NO , ditto
Oben - Won a Superbowl and played several years adequate and was given the Worsed LT title like Tucker is now.
I ain saying alot of our castoffs arent...i just feel with a little guard help (Steinbach with Shaffer) and (Bentley or draft pick with Tucker) these guys games will look tremendously different.
To call him the Worse is pretty much hard to do at this point.
I seem to remember a few years back people on this site and around the league calling the Sandyeggo OL as prolly 2nd to us at the bottom of the league.
They went on to go 12-4 the following year.
And changed ALL 5 guys on the o-line.
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Hall of Famer
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Oh bull
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barrel of naked monkeys
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Randy with a goat for all we know
I'm sensing a theme here. Anything you'd care to share with the group D? 
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But really, for all we know, charlie could be very very well thought of by RAC and Phil..
This is where the circumstantial evidence comes in.
What we do know for sure is that despite his serious faults, the organization has told everyone through the media that Derek freakin' Anderson has closed the gap on Frye. If they really did love Chuck as much as they did the year before, that wouldn't be a quote they'd be throwing out there.
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Why, because of rumors and articles that have been written lately about Green and Carr? Toad Toad Toad,, you know as well as I, they may be true and it could very well be smoke.. But you believe what you want.. As if you need my permission
Well Hell D.....if you're giving it 
Here's the problem with blowing "smoke" about various QB's: There's no benefit to doing it. Even if they were, they are wasting TONS of time and effort and visits from college QB's. To what end? To make sure we get Peterson? Thomas? It just doesn't make sense.
We're now trying to get Green in here to talk contract parameters. There isn't a team in the entire league that's going to extents like that just to blow smoke. In fact, teams like the Raiders who are actually in worse condition than we are at QB aren't screwing around with guys like Carr and Green. They surely aren't interested in McCown just to screw with the Lions.
Blowing smoke is talking up draft picks and your own players. It's never involved trade discussions with other teams about players. If you're interested you're interested. If you're not you're not. We've been reported to have interest, we've admitted interest, and now we're trying to get the guy to come talk money. There isn't much left to the imagination
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Tell me something, if you owned a team,, would you spend all the time and money to get a star QB in the 1st round and then send him to the meat market unprotected,,, to me that's just stupid... Houston did it and so has Cleveland... and the result is the same,,, They have ruined thier young big money investment.. (did you notice that Chris Palmer was the HC here when we did that to Couch, and the OC in Houston when it was done to Carr)
I don't know if Couch or Carr would have ever been All Pros,,, no way to tell now for Couch.. But I know they would have had a better chance with some protection. ( Holcomb didn't have a career to save)
It's just my opinion,, but at some point the carosel has gotta stop..
I agree (except for Couch, but that isn't news ) but the reality is that we're not talking about how life is SUPPOSED to work. We're talking about reality
Remember rule #1: Life isn't fair. It's not fair that those QB's weren't given good lines. Too bad. Doesn't change a damned thing. *L*
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Whoa there big fella,,,, while I do point to the deficiencies of others,, the reason isn't to absolve Frye of anything.. That's way wrong... I don't do it for that reason..
I do take the time to point out things that contribute to the lack of success of this offense under Charlie Frye and Charlies lack of success,, no doubt,, but to absolve him,, no way man... no way.
Ok, but then I see this:
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So hey,, it's all Fryes fault... now that's sound thinking...
It's hard to not say you're at least marginally trying to absolve Frye when you throw out a statement like that
Keep in mind MY point: I don't judge Frye based on the deficiencies of others. I judge Frye based on his own merit. So in my mind, when you say something like that, it's defending Frye by essentially saying he isn't to blame, it's the rest of the offense that's not helping him.
So how do you expect me to react? It looks like your absolving him.
Now I'd like to see him behind a good line (by the way, I think we have a pretty decent line now), but the fears that I've always had regarding Chuck have not been overcome. I didn't like his arm and I still don't. I don't see the accuracy, tight spirals, and anticipation that I should be seeing by now. Really good QB's show signs of greatness even when struggling. I haven't seen that from Chuck. I see a guy who's committing WAY too many turnovers. So in short, even though it's not all his fault, there are way too many questions regarding his viability, so IMHO it's time to go find an insurance policy, if not flat-out change direction. I think that Savage recognizes the same things I do, which is why Green is suddenly in the picture.
Sad but true. Life isn't fair. I wish it were.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Tucker is possably the worst RT in the NFL. Why does everyone love him?
Please tell me you had a brain fart, and that you really don't buy into that crap
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Tucker is possably the worst RT in the NFL. Why does everyone love him?
Please tell me you had a brain fart, and that you really don't buy into that crap
I have never been afan of Tucker. He = a saloon door. 5 years 3.8 years worth of games. Now a mental problem.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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He = a saloon door
Maybe you should stick to playing the piano and singing Stevie 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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I'm sensing a theme here. Anything you'd care to share with the group D?
Other than I was raised by wolves,,No,, everything else is normal 
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This is where the circumstantial evidence comes in.
LOL,,, Circumstantial Evidence...who do you think you are,,, Ben Stone from Law and Order
Toad Toad Toad... it's perception,,, your perception vs mine... I don't perceive Chucks problems to be as severe as you... thus we have "The Great Divide"!
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Here's the problem with blowing "smoke" about various QB's: There's no benefit to doing it.
Ah Ha,,, Perception tilted to prove one's point,,, I like it,,, may I borrow that concept please.....
Yes ther is a benefit to blowing smoke about various QB's. This will lead teams (and some fans ) to feel as if the Browns are Unhappy with the QB's they have on the roster (which is what your saying all this means by the way) SO this could also mean that if Russell or Quinn are still on the board when we pick at #3, we are gonna take whichever one is still there.
Now the Browns have established in the minds of the other teams that a QB is a need and thus, if they want to be sure to snag the one remaining QB at the top of the draft, they may have to give up the farm to trade with us..
WHEW,.,,that was a long way to go to say all of that,,pardon, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee......
Ok, I'm back!
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It's not fair that those QB's weren't given good lines. Too bad. Doesn't change a damned thing.
Geez Toad,,, don't you think that it would have changed things if the FO, GM and Coaching staffs of those two teams (Houston and Cleveland) had paid a little more attention to details and a little less to glitz?
Instead of going for the sexy pick,,, a QB in the first,, it would have been much smarter to go out and get a veteran QB to run the Offense for a year or two or even more. Then, take the first couple of picks and start to build your trenches on both sides of the ball.
Then, a year or so down the line, pick the QB you think can take you the rest of the way... let him learn behind the vet for another year.. and Boom,, you got a shot now..
But no,,,, that's not what these two teams did,, they go for Glitz and style points by taking the sexy road,,, Two QB's... It was wrong when the Browns did it and it was wrong when the Texans did it... as proof I offer the conclusion of both of thier careers... Carr may still have something left.. Couch is ruined for good I think (yeah, I know you didn't like him either)
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Ok, but then I see this:
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So hey,, it's all Fryes fault... now that's sound thinking...
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Toad, when you put it out there like that, yeah, I see what your saying, but that's not the way I said it.. I listed all the things that are wrong with this offense and then I made this comment "So hey,, it's all Fryes fault... now that's sound thinking... " about as sarcasticly as I could... it was SARCASM Toad,,, did ya miss that part
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I don't judge Frye based on the deficiencies of others.
Perhaps, perhaps not,, but in either case, you aren't allowing for those deficiencies in your thinking of Frye either..
Honesty Toad,,, you are right about the whole "FAIR" thing,,, life is indeed unfair at times..
But does that mean, that we should NOT take other things into consideration when doleing out opinions on people, places and things? Of course not...
This would be a good conversation to have with some friends over a couple of brews,,,, Tell you the truth,,I'm having a ton of fun with this one....
Your sense of humor makes it possible my friend,,, your turn!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Where does all this buzz come from just because we "checked into" what "ball park figure" a QB is wanting? What the hell kind of "evidence" is that of anything? But,it's that time of year!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Pit, you lost me,,, can you tell me what you mean, cause I'm either an idiot or you aren't making yourself clear... Please try again
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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we have brought the 2 big guns at quarterback in for a private workout. We are exploring trade talks with the Chiefs for Green. D anderson has been gaining ground on Frye thats from the FO lips. We were looking into what it would take to bring Schaub here.There was also some reports that the Browns were gauging interest in trading Charlie.
Its not only looking like a duck and quacking like a duck but it has grown a large bill, sprouted feathers and grown webbed feet.
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All Pro
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All Pro
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So the sole reason CF is not accurate is his WR's run the wrong routes all the time...?
Frye's not accurate? Wow, I thought he had the 2nd highest completion % in Browns history
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CF calls the wrong protection packages, misreads coverage’s, continually makes the same mental errors, isn't consistent with his release points, drops and timing... Period.
And you know all this is a fact from what source?
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I don't think CF is the answer, has "it".
I could tell from your previous posts
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CF has stunk up the place
He's stunk up the place? I thought he finished 4th in the NFL in rushing yards by a QB. I thought he finished 5th in the NFL in completion %. I thought he finished 3rd in the NFL in rushing TD's by a QB.
Now if BE and Dropcutt would catch balls instead of playing patty cake with them until opposing players end up with them, then maybe we would have won more games.
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Its not only looking like a duck and quacking like a duck but it has grown a large bill, sprouted feathers and grown webbed feet.
Really, because we've heard rumors about Green, Schaub, Carr, Bledsoe, Testevarde, etc. But which of these guys is currently on the Browns and which of these guys did the Browns make a LEGIT offer for? I believe the answer is, zero.
Pre-draft talk is just that, pre-draft talk. Talk to me when the Browns start making legit offers.
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Legend
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we have brought the 2 big guns at quarterback in for a private workout. We are exploring trade talks with the Chiefs for Green. D anderson has been gaining ground on Frye thats from the FO lips. We were looking into what it would take to bring Schaub here.There was also some reports that the Browns were gauging interest in trading Charlie.
And yet, with all of that, not a thing has happened.. Carr is now off the market, Schaub is off the market and Green is being discussed by the Browns, Detroit and Miami,,
Carr would have cost us nothing other than his contract.,.. Schaub would have cost way to much IMO and nobody knows yet what Green will cost.
Everything you wrote probably happened... the question is why?
A.. Was it because the FO and Coach have lost faith in Charlie
B.. For the single minded purpose of giving out Misinformaiton
C.. To gauge interest from other teams in Trade talks for either our #3 or Charlie or someone else.
D.. Was it just Phil doing his Due Dilegence.. Checking into any and every scenerio that might improve the team.
I don't know the answer... all I can say is that NOTHING has taken place yet. What's that mean...
By the way, the duck metaphor was off the hook funny,,, I loved it
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Pit, you lost me,,, can you tell me what you mean, cause I'm either an idiot or you aren't making yourself clear... Please try again
Sorry,I can see why you were confused.
We draft #3. Common logic dictates you don't know who will be there. So you have interviews with people who may very well be there. Which would include Quinn and Russel. That's just common sense,not news or some huge hint as to who we will draft.
Then,we put out NOTHING MORE than a "feeler". To see what "ballpark figure" Green would be looking at. Nothing more.
Now,we have conspiracy theorists playing connect the dots when there aren't even any dots to connect.
Hopefully that explains it a little better.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Sound logic can be applied to almost any scenario.
Maybe we want Thomas, maybe we want a qb....maybe we want a back.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Exactly Peen.
We all have players we would like to see drafted,but there is no "real" indication of which way they will go.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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LOL Yeah, I got it this time,,, Geez man, I don't know what's really in the heart of Phil Savage. But because I believe we need to give Charlie another year, I tend to look at all this talk of Schaub, Carr, Green as nothing more than Phil pushing out some misinformation.. muddying the waters so to speak .. I suppose that if I were in the camp that says we should not waste another minute on Frye and we need to upgrade now,,, Then I'm guessing I'd read it as, we are shopping around for a new QB because we don't like what we have. But as far as what's in Phils mind,,, man, your guess is as good as mine. Any conclusion that people on here or in the media come up with is pure speculation at this point. Unless you are part if the group that is making those decisions, there is no way for any of us to know.. I do know this, last season we had all the same kinda rumors floating around but the names were different.. one was Joey Harrington (available again) another was that kid that was with the Raiders,, who's name I can't seem to recall, Aaron Brooks, (also available again), Culpepper ( who may be available again) and Brees.. No trigger was pulled then either... So what's it all mean,,, hell if I know I'm guessing it means something different to everyone... Look at what Mour wrote just a few posts up from yours.. That's one point of view, and in the end,, he could be right on.. I guess we will see...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 125
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
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As for going to training camp. WHO CARES about practice. Practice! we're talking about practice??!!!??
Tenn, only in the sense that he can throw the ball well enough,, in practice you can see that.. for you to belittle Camp time,,, well, I think that's incredibly poor judgement,, but you are entitled to your opinion.. if you feel that what happens at practice doesn't matter, then more power to ya...
You will be alone in that thinking.. I would hope that nobody else would follow that lead!
When ya quote someone, you should use the whole quote. To just use that little blurb is to make it sound as if I don't think practice is important. That's not true. I went on to say that practice is only important if it translates into game play. I'm 5'6" and weigh 150 lbs. I could practice all day everyday and NEVER be an NFL quality player.
If you can't get it done on the field, then you should not be a starter. The comment was made that I should watch him in training camp. The comment was that he makes all types of passes in camp. My point is that it means didbley if it does not translate in game play. I don't need to see him in camp. I can watch him in the game.
Upgrade does mean that things get better.........RIGHT?
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If you can't get it done on the field, then you should not be a starter.
I guess Archis Manning never deserved to play then huh?
That's why they call it a "team sport".
And are you SURE 5'6" isn't stretching things just a tad?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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If you can't get it done on the field, then you should not be a starter. The comment was made that I should watch him in training camp. The comment was that he makes all types of passes in camp. My point is that it means didbley if it does not translate in game play. I don't need to see him in camp. I can watch him in the game.
I know what ya saying Tenn... I'm 6' 2" and weight 215 and when i was in the 10th grade i could throw a ball 55 yds. I topped out at arounf 60yds and added strenght and i had tons of accuracy. I'm near 40 years old now and if you saw me out in the yard or playing flag football you would think i at least played some college ball but i didn't. Because when the bullets started to fly you could see why i played TE through my football years. Its not the same when the bullets start flying and making reads on the fly all the time 300lbs guys are hanging off you.....BIG DIFFERENCE. TENN's point is well made.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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