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Of course he will throw more INTs in an Offense like that, but who cares as long as the TDs go up even more....and an INT in this Offense is like a punt if it's caught downfield.
Rivers started 8 years in this Offense and still threw 35 INTs the past 2 seasons, but he also threw 53 TDs
I expect 19-25 TDs and 16-22 INTs and yes, I consider a 22-18 TD-INT season a big improvement
#gmstrong
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Do you feel that would be enough of an improvement to prevent this FO from going after a franchise QB in next years draft?
I really don't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Campbell outperforms Weeden in OTA's: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-brandon-weedenIt will not matter. And Hoyer will be the third stringer. Lewis will be cut. Weeden will be the quarterback. Just the fact that they did not draft a QB for the most part gives Weeden the job. All the other talk about Campbell getting a fair shot is just that - talk. Weeden is a first round pick and they want to find out if he can improve under Chud and Turner( even though he was not drafted by this regime). He will have to totally bomb or get hurt for Campbell or Hoyer to play.
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I wouldn't put any extra stock in Hoyer over Lewis folks. His contract doesn't mean anything unless he makes is out of Training Camp to Week 1.
As for Campbell out-performing Weeden.... this early in the game, I'd hope he should. He, by far, has more experience.
None of it matters until the pads go on.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Weeden is a first round pick
So is Campbell... 
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Quote:
Quote:
Weeden is a first round pick
So is Campbell...
And they're the same age!
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And they're the same age!
Ouch! 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I know nothing about Hoyer, but I liked what I saw of Lewis in that last game. He looked a heckuva lot better than Weeden.
I agree 100%
Thad makes such quick decisions compared to Weeden or Colt. I really was impressed by him.
That being said he might not have a big enough arm to play in Norv's system which is a shame because I think on the right team he could have been a stud.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Do you feel that would be enough of an improvement to prevent this FO from going after a franchise QB in next years draft?
I really don't.
Depends, they're only stats....if he throws half his TDs in garbage time, then not. If, like last year, he gets his team inside the 5 often and TRich bangs them in (TRich got a lot of his TDs giftwrapped by the passing game), and he throws desperation INTs when we're 2 scores back? then I could be happy enough with a 21-19 TD/INT.
Folks, Eli Manning had 24/17 and a 76 QBr in his 2nd season...if Weeden gets in that range and we win 7+, then I think he could get a 2nd season in this system, but we're far away from that discussion. Let's see how he starts this season and go from there 
#gmstrong
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The completion % needs to come up (same number of completions for the season, but on fewer attempts would be nice). The number of TD needs to increase dramatically, and the INT numbers need to come down a bit. I don't think that will be too hard for him, however, because games like that Week 1 debacle just shouldn't happen this year. If you wanted to sugar coat it a little... the completions # and the total yards numbers were pretty good. It's just the lack of efficiency with which he got to those numbers that is at issue, hehe (please don't take me too serious on that one folks, I know how absurd it is, thanks ). In any case, it'll be a curious thing to watch.... not a rookie and in a system that is a better fit for his abilities. Ya know, thinking about this roster and the team in general real quick... I don't think that we've entered a summer with as many question marks on this team since Crennel's first season and our original experiment with the 3-4. 14 Seasons and counting with a QB Deadbate.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Since weeks 2 Weeden had a 14/13 TD/INT, a 6.8ypa and a QBr around 78
As for his TD number, he should have had at least 16 or 17 TDs....remember that game where twice his WR was stopped exactly at the one yd line? That stuff happened a lot to him and from there TRich got most of the TD tries...2 or 3 of TRich's TDs really belong to Weeden as he did nothing to get them...
it's simple math deviation at work here: a 3.5ypc RB with 12 TDs? Sounds like a GL-FB and a 3,300+ yds QB with only 14 TDs? Looks like some bad luck. Sure, Weeden had trouble inside the 5 or 10yd line and that didn't help his stats, but even 16 or 17 TDs is not much for a QB with so many yds....add to that Gordon's drop vs Indy and the stupid Obi-line up penalty on a short TD pass (forgot against who, close game we lost because of it, lol). Also, Shurmur was extremely conservative with Weeden once in the RedZone
Since week one is long gone, those are the stats Weeden will be measured against....can he elevate his yds/PA from 6.8 to 7.2+ and better his TD/INT ratio from a flat 1 to 1.2? We will see
#gmstrong
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He should have had more TDs, huh? What about picks? He had all kinds of stupid throws that the defenders dropped. Your argument is lame.
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Thanks for responding. Excellent post. I don't agree w/everything you said, but you argued w/logic and reason. I like that. It's real football talk. It sucks your post is the very last on the page because some people will miss it. I almost missed it, myself. Look, I agree w/a lot of what you say. I will skip those items and address the areas where we disagree. I am pointing that out because I don't want to think that I am just categorically disagreeing w/you. And please note that I don't think my word is gospel and I am right and you are wrong. There are a lot of questions to be answered. We can make educated guesses on how he progresses this year, but we really can't say anything for certain at this point. Quote:
Accuracy: Decent to good. I think that issues with "arm strength" were due more to inconsistent reading of defenses than insufficient strength.
I was disappointed in his accuracy. I kind of expected it because almost all Spread QBs put up great completion percentage numbers in college. I will say that he made some very accurate throws. He threw a lot of great crossing routes and slants. He also was accurate on some intermediate out patterns. On the other hand, his deep passes were not nearly as accurate as I thought they would be. He wasn't good on post patterns. He sailed too many throws and threw a bunch in the dirt. I would say he was below average.
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Pocket Awareness: Fair, He can be better here. He was better than the previous year's QB in this regard.
This is the second time you mentioned he was better than the previous qb. So what? Colt is gone and should be a non-issue. It's all about how Weeden played. I think his pocket presence was God-awful. He held the ball forever and then seemed shocked when a rusher came at him. I really didn't see him stepping up in the pocket on a consistent basis, but to be fair, he did do it on occasion. I think he has a long way to go in this category.
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Leadership: Solid. I think that he can lead the team effectively.
Solid? Why? I did not see him as a good leader. Never saw him step up. I understand he was a rookie, but I don't get the solid comment. I think he was lacking in this area, but it is hard to say w/any certainty---either way.
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Ability to learn:
and
Willingness to improve: /quote]
Neither of us know for sure, but comments have come out from several people that make me question his intelligence and work ethic. Hopefully, those comments lit a fire under his butt and he works hard this year.
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Decision making: I think that he has room for improvement here. I think that a more familiar offense will help here. The WCO was a very precise offense, and a receiver out of position could screw up the whole play ... especially for a rookie QB. We'll see how he does in this offense, which should have simpler play calls, and simpler reads.
I know you didn't praise him, but I think his decision making was terrible. I think he couldn't read coverages. He was confused way too often and held the ball, held it some more, and held it even more. Than he would check down when we clearly had open receivers down the field. I haven't seen a qb in Cleveland not see the field as poorly as Weeden did in a long time and that is saying something w/all the bums we have had here since '99. I went to 3 games and it was irritating to see how awful he was. I think this is a weakness of his.
You left out a couple of things that I feel are important:
Anticipation: He showed zero anticipation. Not zero, but hopefully you get the point. He doesn't throw guys open. He doesn't understand when the FS is baiting him. He doesn't get what the coverage LBer might do. It's a HUGE weakness and it is not teachable.
Reading Defenses: This comes pre-snap. I really didn't see him audible. Perhaps he was not allowed to, but right now, that has to be regarded as a weakness. You can get better at this if you do a lot of studying of the opponent's defenses, but it takes a lot of work and you need a football brain.
Reading Coverages: This is post-snap. Most people, including reporters and analysts call this reading defenses, but they are wrong. Weeden was totally inept at reading and understanding coverages last year. It is the primary reason why he held the ball so long. He wasn't sure what the heck he was seeing. You can improve in this area, but it's pretty much an innate gift. Guys like you and I would stand back there and see only a blur. The best QBs somehow see it picture-by-picture. Other guys---like Weeden--struggle because the game moves too fast for them. This weakness is going to be very hard to overcome.
Again, thanks for responding and I really enjoyed reading your post. I agreed w/a lot of it. And I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. I think it's fun and educational to have a debate like this. We can learn and I know there are others [from PM's I get] that enjoy learning too.
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.... it's fun and educational to have a debate like this. We can learn and I know there are others [from PM's I get] that enjoy learning too.
Yes, it is....particularly when done analytically and not emotionally. 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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You should go and view the argument I am having w/The Almighty Talent Evaluator Helddawg. No emotion there. That is precisely why I enjoy a good debate w/a guy like YTown. Sound arguments. Not some fabricated BS!
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2013 will be about Brandon Weeden at the QB spot. If he is beaten out by Jason Cambell the QB will be our #1 priority next offseason. Jason Cambell is a game manager. Which is exactly what a team needs as a back up QB. Someone that can come in and manage the team until the starter comes back. Win a few games and then take the clip board again. Chud has mentioned the word attack over and over again about both his offense and defense,
With an attacking style offense he needs a strong armed QB that will attack a defense down the field opening running lanes for Trent Richardson. Weeden will throw some picks sure but he will need to be close to 2 to 1 TD's to INT's to be considered successful.
I do not think the new coaching staff and FO will have kid gloves on concerning Weeden. Their expectations for him will be high and their evaluations of him will be to meet those lofty expectations. This staff wants to win and they want Weeden to be a gunslinger. He has the physical tools, he has the offensive weapons, and he has a strong offensive line. Time to take the kid gloves off step up.
Nothing more than a dangerous QB that attacks the whole field will do. I like Weeden but there are no excuses he needs to have a big season plan and simple. His age just does not allow for a long development period. Jason Cambell in my opinoin was not brought in to take the starting QB job but rather as a perfect #2 QB to manage a team. This move to sign Brian Hoyer is to bring in another veteran presence around Weeden to help his mental game.
2013 Brandon Weeden's put up or shut up season.
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
One reason I am willing to cut Weeden a small amount of slack is because there were reports that Benjamin and Gordon both struggled with running their routes properly last year. Whether this is true or not can be debated, but given that Weeden went from some degree of competence of reading the defense earlier on, to struggling mightily later in the year, would lend some credence to the theory. I do not think that Weeden knew the offense well enough to know how to correct every route. He was a rookie. It would also make sense as to why Banner would call out both the QB and the WR in some of his comments.
I did forget about anticipation, and he was quite spotty with regards to anticipation. Sometimes he was decent, and other times he was far less. Once more, in many ways it seemed like he got worse in this regard as the year progressed.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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And y'all all come to this conclusion on Lewis by watching him in 1 game???
Let's give a team a game or 2 of film on him and I would be pretty darn sure he would start holding the ball and be indecisive with throws and then his average accuracy would look horrid.
Come on guys....really???? One game and you can come up with that. Funny!!!!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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You should go and view the argument I am having...
Oh, I've been watching. My level of knowledge allows me to spot the difference in footwork between Fred Astaire and the Incredible Hulk, but for finer differences, I readily admit to being technically challenged... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
I seem to recall none were allowed. You ran Rat's play no matter what.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
I seem to recall none were allowed. You ran Rat's play no matter what.
'P' and 'R' aren't that close on a typical keyboard, 'peen... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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And y'all all come to this conclusion on Lewis by watching him in 1 game???
I probably wasn't very clear.
All I meant to say that Lewis did not hold the ball forever like Weeden did. A lot of people blame all of Weeden's problems on the coaching, but a nobody qb came out and did not hold the ball. He got rid of it ion time.
I can't stress enough how much of a problem holding the ball too long is for your offense.
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Hey V
There was a few games that Weeden got rid of the ball on time and looked like he was making progress then he would have several games where he looked lost. Thats all im saying. One game on Lewis is no where near a factor on him being more decisive etc. than Weeden.
Most rooks do what Weeden did there first year. We have just been spoiled in the last few years with some rookies doing things that have in the past been only been seen after playing a few years in the league. Had Weeden had the year he had this year back 5 years ago most on here would be estatic!!!!
Im not sold on Weeden but im smart enough to know you cant judge him in one year and one DEFINATELY cant judge Lewis in 1 game.
On Hoyer...Lindys pimped him pretty good in last years mag. It wasnt only Lombo that liked him.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
I seem to recall none were allowed. You ran Rat's play no matter what.
It's a moot point. There was never any time to audible anyway.
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I always wondered the "flow" or "process" that Brad and the Rat did to get a play-call in. I mean whatever the process was seemed to take quite a bit of time. The Rat would always give the run-around when Grossi use to try to drill him to get that answer.
Thankfully it is now a moot point, and we don't ever have to witness a Cleveland team being operated by Pat and hopefully, noone ever again like Pat.
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
I seem to recall none were allowed. You ran Rat's play no matter what.
It's a moot point. There was never any time to audible anyway.
I think that is another really good point. We had way too many times where we had plays called really late, or even had to take a time out because the play couldn't even get in from the sideline before the clock ran out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't know how much the QB can audible in Shurmur's offense. McCoy did almost none the year before, and Weeden did almost none last year.
I seem to recall none were allowed. You ran Rat's play no matter what.
It's a moot point. There was never any time to audible anyway.
I agree as it took 15 seconds just to get plays in, but back to the audible topic, I seem to recall we didn't even have a system in place to do that even if we wanted.
But it is moot. We have a new HC and coordinator and I am confident we will see big changes on offense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Nice football post, Da Man's hot. 
YTown, I was just giving you a taste of your own medicine. Don't be offended, man.
I am curious about what you think about my theory that opening up the offense could lead to a slew of interceptions? Seriously, I like reading your posts. You are an intelligent poster who brings a lot of insight to the board. Talk to me.
LOL,, Just givin what I get little buddy
In all seriousness, I'm not sure why this signing is significant? I mean other than he's a local product.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Haha well if the Jets wanted him then we must have gotten a STEAL!
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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While they "really wanted" Hoyer, they also "really want" every QB.
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While they "really wanted" Hoyer, they also "really want" every QB.
We should see if we can trade them Brandon Weeden for their first rounder next year.
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Lmfao, I would marry Lombardi if he could pull off that deal hahahaha
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LOL,, Just givin what I get little buddy
I didn't say a word to you. You jumped in and insulted me. I typically don't respond to you unless you ask me one of your jaded questions or insult me.
Btw---I am not all that little and I don't think we are buddies.
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Lmfao, I would marry Lombardi if he could pull off that deal hahahaha
Do you think we could get Pastor to officiate?
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Lmfao, I would marry Lombardi if he could pull off that deal hahahaha
Do you think we could get Pastor to officiate?
I just did a marriage this morning, they were male and female, if thats the case then yes ...
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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I see this thread going in a very different direction... 
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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