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Then I clarified my point ...... which you obviously missed.
Is he worth $14 million, and giving up almost all ability to sign a free agent or make a trade of any impact in 2014? Is he that valuable? Is he a difference maker?
I saw the clarification. I still stand by what I said. I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but it does sound like you just look up stat averages and come to a conclusion. Did you watch Asik play in Chicago?
Also, how would taking on Asik prevent us from signing an impact free agent in 2014?
And if you're worried about paying a one dimensional player $14-15 million a year, why advocate signing Al Jefferson?
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I've already said this several times. The context was that all the available cap space had to be spent then, because Lebron was being non-committal about renewing with the Cavs the next season. Pretty much EVERYONE was saying that Ferry needed to go out and get whatever he could get in Free Agency if he wanted Lebron to stay in Cleveland. Hughes was option #3, and yes it was a panic move, to get him before he went back to Washington ... but the other option was to sign nobody, sit on cap space, and then listen to the media tell you all year that Lebron is as good as gone, because you didn't even bother to spend what you had available to you ... then pray Lebron ignores all that and re-ups anyway, because if he doesn't, you're probably getting fired after one year.
This is just a long-winded rationalization of another Danny Ferry mistake.
Let me give you the correct answer -
There is no context where it's a good idea to sign an injury-plagued 41% career slasher with one good season under his belt to a 5 year, $70 million contract.
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I don't understand how you can't see why his hands were tied.
When did I say otherwise?
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He had no trade assets and no draft picks.
First it was 'he was saddled with bad contracts, he had no trade assets and no draft picks'.
Once it was shown to you that he wasn't saddled with a bunch of bad contracts, you just focused on these two, which, once again, are not true.
He came into his job with one of the better trade assets in the entire league. He didn't use it. And we've already gone over that he would later do it again.
Ferry had trade assets. I don't know why you keep insisting that he didn't.
And you know you can buy draft picks, right? I'm too lazy to do it right now, so I could be wrong, but I'd imagine if we went through all of the drafts after Ferry's tenure, you'll see teams selling their mid-late first rounders.If he wanted a draft pick, he could've had one.
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But the argument was, "He didn't do enough"
I'm still waiting to hear how that argument is incorrect.
You ignored my question before, I'll ask it again -
Can you please point out the moves Ferry made that you thought were really good or great moves? The kind that made you think we were building something great?
If we stack those up against his bad moves, how does Danny Ferry's tenure as GM look?
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Dawg Talker
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Reports say Cavs sign PG Jarrett Jack for 4 years, $25 million.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Reports say Cavs sign PG Jarrett Jack for 4 years, $25 million.
Considering Kyrie's first two years with his injury problems? Great sign. This is a guy who is a great backup and can be a very very solid starter for a stretch if you need him.
I like it.
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Hall of Famer
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Definitely a nice surprise. 
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Then I clarified my point ...... which you obviously missed.
Is he worth $14 million, and giving up almost all ability to sign a free agent or make a trade of any impact in 2014? Is he that valuable? Is he a difference maker?
I saw the clarification. I still stand by what I said. I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but it does sound like you just look up stat averages and come to a conclusion. Did you watch Asik play in Chicago?
Also, how would taking on Asik prevent us from signing an impact free agent in 2014?
And if you're worried about paying a one dimensional player $14-15 million a year, why advocate signing Al Jefferson?
The reason that I advocated Jefferson, is exactly why I said when I discussed him. He could have been a 20 PPG player here. He's a big body in the middle, and would have helped us scoring the basketball ...... which is an area we need a lot of help in.
I guess that I tend to value defensive specialists less than offensive scorers, or obviously,more well rounded players. Alonzo Gee is one of the better defenders in the NBA. I feel that he should be replaced, because he adds little on offense. Would I rather have Gee starting, or a lesser defensive player who I could count on for buckets every night? Give me the 15-20 PPG guy over the defensive specialist in Gee every day and twice on Sunday.
I realize that a strong defensive Center can help the entire defense, but when I see these ridiculous multi million dollar deals given to guy like Diop, who couldn't score a bucket in his time in Cleveland if he was left undefended, (and he often was) and who couldn't pass to save his life ..... well I don't see that either. I would rather have an average player on both offense and defense, at an average price, then to have a decent to solid defender who cannot make a basket, even if he's the only guy on the court. Diop was the kind of guy who would get a rebound and get fouled, and toss the ball up at the basket 3 or 4 times afterwards, missing every one of them, and then go on to miss his free throws too. Bleh. I want guys who can play defense, but they also have to be able to make rudimentary basketball plays on offense as well.
Back to Jefferson .... is he a premiere defender? No, obviously not. However he is a scoring threat any time he is on the court, and he can grab boards as well. He is able to put back misses. He converts 3/4 of his free throws. He's not a liability on offense. He's not the strongest defender, to be kind, but the coaches can work with him on that aspect of his game, and can play schemes that help him to some extent.
My main concern with Asik was that his contract inflated to $14 million next year. I was informed that this was because of a poison pill which would not apply if we were to trade for him, and in that case I could see the value. I don't see the value of bringing him in if it costs us all ability to sign a premium free agent, or to trade for a superstar player. If his salary fits the overall structure of the team, and can all the team to accommodate a max contract, then fine. If not, then I want no part of it. He's not a max deal type player. He's good. He's solid. But he's not in that top tier of players in the NBA. If I sign a Center to a max deal, I want more than a defensive guy. I want some scoring ability to go along with it. Now, Asik did show some offensive ability last year, and has shown the ability to make shots down low at a solid clip, so he does appear to have a solid game on both ends. However, again, I don't think that I would go max deal for "decent" or "good".
I see a lot of NBA teams go and sign solid, decent players to big time and even max deals, and then they are hamstrung by them. I expect Chris Grant to be smarter than that, and I think that he is. As important as it is to sign the right guys, it's just as important to know when to say no .... and I see this as especially true when you have a one dimensional defensive player who is simply unable to make buckets.
I remember when "Hack - A - Shaq" was all the rage ...... when teams would get to the end of the game and immediately foul Shaq when he'd corral a rebound because they know that he was just as likely to miss those shots as he was to make them. That's what happens when you get a guy who cannot convert even half of his free throws. That was also Diop. The difference was that Shaq could at least make buckets from the floor. To Diop, the basket was a foreign land that he didn't have a passport to.
This all started when I said something about Diop and his ridiculous deal. I still would not have ever given a guy who had nothing even remotely resembling a rudimentary offensive game a big deal like that. Sure maybe you use him on defense, but you can't use him late in a close game on defense, because free throws for him might as well be a turnover, and the other team is sure to try and foul him as soon as he gets the ball. He was an 18 minute per game guy .... in his best year. To me he's not worth anything resembling the deals he played for. You disagree, and that's your right ..... but that deal, to me, is no better than the Cavaliers going out and throwing money at Larry Hughes ......and in many ways it might even be worse ... because you know that you get absolutely and completely nothing from Diop on the offensive end, and he cannot be used in critical situations in close games because he has no offensive game, and cannot score even against air.
Back to Asik again ...... if his deal is a more midrange deal next year, then I would be OK with pursuing him. He could be a nice piece on this team. He's not a superstar, and he shouldn't be paid like a superstar ...... but he is a solid player, and warrants a solid contract. Again, I would not have wanted him is, as I though, his contract was going to jump to $14 million ....especially with only 1 real year of offensive production under his belt. That would be a huge risk, especially if it would have eliminated the ability of this team to add a max contract for a true superstar player.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I guess that I tend to value defensive specialists less than offensive scorers
Yeah, I've noticed. 
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My main concern with Asik was that his contract inflated to $14 million next year. I was informed that this was because of a poison pill which would not apply if we were to trade for him, and in that case I could see the value. I don't see the value of bringing him in if it costs us all ability to sign a premium free agent, or to trade for a superstar player. If his salary fits the overall structure of the team, and can all the team to accommodate a max contract, then fine
As of now, we have like $4 million in guaranteed salaries for 2014. Obviously, that number's going way up when we sign the rooks and exercise team options on our youngsters, but long story short, yes, if we took on Asik, we could still sign a max deal. Varejao and Gee don't have guaranteed contracts, and it's unlikely that either will be back after next year.
Asik won't be coming here, anyway. I'd guess he goes to the Lakers in a sign-and-trade, but who knows.
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This all started when I said something about Diop and his ridiculous deal
No, this all started when you advocated signing Al Jefferson and then turned around and said that you were worried about paying a one-dimensional player $14-15 million a year.
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You disagree, and that's your right ...
I never said Diop's contract was a good idea.
I pointed out why it happened, and we argued from there because you were talking about the guy like all you'd done was look at his stat averages.
You were comparing his rebounding numbers to Tyler Zeller's.
I don't know how to say this politely, but it doesn't sound like you know much about basketball. You're listing lottery rosters and saying they could compete with anyone. And it seems like you just look at scoring or rebounding averages (i.e. comparing Diop's best rebounding year to Zeller's rookie season). I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me, but you just looked at their RPG, and compared them, didn't you?
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, and that's not an insult. There's no rule on DT that says you have to know what you're talking about to do so. 
But, anyway, that was my point of contention when discussing Diop, Jefferson and Asik. When you talked about them, it didn't come across like you had seen any of them play all that much. It just seemed like you were looking at their stat averages and making conclusions based on them.
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Didn't see that coming. I like it.
A solid bench player who can also be a competent starter at the 1 or the 2.
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From what I can find, Varejao is guaranteed for 2014 for $4 million. With the players we currently have who are expected to be long term parts of the future, we have the following: Irving: $7 million (Team Option) Jack: (Not sure, spotrac.com has it completely blank) Waiters: $4 million (Team Option) Thompson: $5.1 million (Team Option) Zeller: $1.7 million (Team Option) Varejao: $4 million guarantee, or $9.7 salary Bennett: $5.5 million range? New 2013 Max Deal: $14 million 2014 1st round pick: $4 million We also have 1 or 2 1st round draft picks next year. The cap isn't going to jump by huge numbers, so let's assume one mid 1st rounder with a 1st year deal worth $4 million, and a cap that goes from $58 million to $60 million. Let's also assume that the team picks up their options on everyone listed .... though Zeller might be the most iffy of those propositions, and decides to let Varejao go, paying only the $4 ,million guarantee. I'll also assume that Jack is in the $4 million range. There is what technically "is" ....... and what is reality. $4 million is technically correct. If we want no players on the court in 2014, we can pick up no options and go sign a max guy with all of our cap space. However, if we hang on to our most valuable guys, guys who look like longer term type players, then we would be at right around $49.3 million in 2014 salaries. We would have to cut salaries, and dump players, in order to fit enough players to fill out the roster and to add that 2nd max deal. I also didn't figure in Karasev's deal because I have no idea what he'll make as a mid 1st rounder, and don't feel like looking it up. However, that would come into play as well, because his deal would be guaranteed for next year. Now that's not horrible, but it's not quite the same as "Oh we have only $4 million under contract for 2014" ... which is, quite frankly, pie in the sky. We still have to fill out a roster. We still have to field a team. We can't release and/or trade everyone. Other teams have to have cap space, assets that we want, and the desire to trade for our players under option in order for us to trade them. It is really hard to make a trade to create cap room in the NBA these days, and if we don't pick up the team options, then the players we had under contract as assets become nothing to us except players we might hope to sign, and at an inflated rate. My numbers are from http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nba/cle/cavaliers, (an easier site to see all of the numbers on a single page) and this site has Jack as a free agent in 2014, but I would guess that this is under his old deal.(?) If you find a mistake in my numbers, feel free to point it out. I have no doubt whatsoever that you will whether or not I ask you to.  As far as Diop and Zeller, the only reason I made the comparison is because there was a comparison to be made. Diop was a horrible NBA player, and he still made over $8 million in a single season. He was a decent defender, but not some shutdown guy, and he was absolutely, completely, and totally lost on the offensive end. I stated that it was a ridiculous amount to pay for such a one dimensional player, and then you went off on a rant about how I must not watch much basketball and such. That's why you are tied to Diop. I would rather have Zeller at $1.7 million than to have Diop at $8 million any and every day of the week. Back to current Cavaliers discussion .... I really like the signing of Jack. As an aside, he said that a big reason he signed with Cleveland was Mike Brown ...... so I guess bringing him back has paid off in that regard. I liked Shaun Livingston as our backup last year, but I do think that Jack brings more to the table, especially on offense. He is strong enough offensively that Dion can have the ball in his hands when he and Jack are on the court. I really like this signing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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and then you went off on a rant about how I must not watch much basketball and such
Can you point out exactly where I was 'ranting'?
I felt bad pointing it out, because I can see that you're a fan. But it's pretty obvious that you don't know much about the game.
If you take offense to that, I apologize, but I don't really see where I was speaking in an angry or violent manner.
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Well, if you think that we "really" only have $4 million in contracts next year, then I don't know what to say there. Do we have flexibility? Certainly. Are we going to forgo our options on everyone, and somehow not have guarantees on our 1st rounders this year? No. It is obvious that you think that you know a tremendous amount about basketball, and maybe you do. However this whole discussion between you and I started when I stated that I thought that $8 million for Diop was a ridiculous number, and then used a bit of satirical license to compare him to Zeller ...... (and only some, because Diop was never some tremendous defender in any of the times I saw him ..... he was a foul machine, but not a great defender) and you went off on how little I obviously know because I didn't see the value in a defense only, and I mean ONLY) guy like Diop, with that kind of contract ..... and how I did see value in an offensive Center who could give us 20/10 every night. We agree to disagree. Now I am tired of going round and round with you ..... as usually happens. You can now go about your day convinced that you are brilliant while the rest of the world is dim.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Reports say Cavs sign PG Jarrett Jack for 4 years, $25 million.
Considering Kyrie's first two years with his injury problems? Great sign. This is a guy who is a great backup and can be a very very solid starter for a stretch if you need him.
I like it.
I like Jarrett Jack. He's solid defensively, can guard both backcourt spots (so take the best with whoever he's paired with) and we needed another guard. If his recent 3pt%'s are real, then he could be a great under-the-radar signing.
I do worry that we needed a frontcourt defensive guy more and that $6mil/year is a high price for what we want from Jack.
But, if we do end up with Asik too, then this is going to be a fun team to root on this season (and you have to think Mike Brown is pushing for that move).
#gmstrong
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Well, if you think that we "really" only have $4 million in contracts next year, then I don't know what to say there.
Here is my quote:
As of now, we have like $4 million in guaranteed salaries for 2014. Obviously, that number's going way up when we sign the rooks and exercise team options on our youngsters
Please feel free to point out the inaccuracy in the statement.
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It is obvious that you think that you know a tremendous amount about basketball, and maybe you do.
I do not think that I know a tremendous amount of basketball.
I'm pretty knowledgeable, but I'm no guru or anything.
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However this whole discussion between you and I started when I stated that I thought that $8 million for Diop was a ridiculous number, and then used a bit of satirical license to compare him to Zeller
What exactly is satirical about the following statement?
His best rebounding season was 5.4 rebounds/game. Tyler Zeller averaged 5.7 REB/G last season as an undersized rookie.
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and you went off on how little I obviously know because I didn't see the value in a defense only
First off, unless you can point to evidence, please stop referring to me 'ranting' or 'going off'. I'm just talking basketball here. I'm that not heated about it. Not sure how you feel, but I don't think those words or phrases apply.
Secondly, that's not what I said at all. You're putting words into my mouth.
I said:
I'm asking this politely, not to be rude, but do you watch much basketball? Or do you just look at stat averages?
Again, I'm not trying to snipe, but I'm trying to understand where you come from sometimes.
For example, the year in question that you're comparing, Diop's per 36 rebound average was 10.9. Zeller's was 7.8. Zeller's Per-36 shot blocking average was 1.2. Diop's was 2.7. Diop's win shares per 48 minutes was .13. Zeller's was .048.
Diop was a huge defensive presence for the Mavs for a few years. There was a short window where he was a fantastic defender, but didn't play huge minutes because he was an offensive liability and couldn't keep up with the Mavs' offense. He didn't warrant the contract he got, but it seems like you're just looking at his stat averages.
Just looking at yearly averages won't tell you much.
Feel free to point out where I am 'ranting' or telling you that you don't understand the value of a defensive specialist with a lack of offensive game.
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. You can now go about your day convinced that you are brilliant while the rest of the world is dim.
Again, I don't feel that way at all.
I'm sorry I brought it up, man. I'm not looking to expose you for your lack of basketball knowledge. I should've been the bigger guy and let it go.
My advice is that when you're discussing or debating a subject you don't know that much about, ask more questions and make less declarative statements.
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How do we fit another max deal under next year's cap? Please explain who you release, or whose options you decline, to get there, if we add a max deal to this year's cap.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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a quick look at the numbers: http://www.82games.com/1213/12GSW2.HTM12/13: Jack PER PG=17.9 / SG=15.2 opponent PER PG=15.6 / SG=11.9 Positive PER at both spots. Really nice defensive numbers there as well. Extremely consistent %'s at FG (45%) and FT (87%) throughout his career. His 3pt% has been up and down, but it's been good the past 2 seasons (35 & 40).
#gmstrong
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How do we fit another max deal under next year's cap? Please explain who you release, or whose options you decline, to get there, if we add a max deal to this year's cap.
Just going to dodge answering questions about that last post, huh? Thought so.
Here's where we're at now:
http://www.hoopsworld.com/cleveland-cavaliers-team-salary
You'll notice Jack's contract has been added since my original statements, but I doubt that's a deal-breaker.
Here's an explanation of how sign and trades work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_and_trade
Here's an explanation of luxury tax:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Luxury_tax
Go through all of that, and if you still don't understand how it's possible, let me know and I'll be happy to provide a detailed answer.
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Woe, you certainly do have condescending down to a science. If you don't want to answer my question, that's fine. I broke down the numbers earlier, and asked what you would give up to fit a 2nd max deal in, and you won't answer. Anyway, I'm done. I'm happy with what the Cavaliers have done so far this off-season. I would love to see us add a Center who can score from somewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Woe, you certainly do have condescending down to a science.
If you don't want to answer my question, that's fine. I broke down the numbers earlier, and asked what you would give up to fit a 2nd max deal in, and you won't answer.
First of all, you 'broke down the numbers'? Seriously? You didn't even take into consideration the fact that we have to trade players to land Asik, did you? You just looked at the roster and added Asik's contract in your math, right? Tell me if I'm wrong.
You have failed to answer question after question after question. You've put words in my mouth, and made a multitude of untrue statements. And now all of a sudden, I'm under the gun for refusing to answer a question?
I wasn't being condescending. I actually typed a few snarky remarks and thought better of it. I completely understand how you can feel that way, but I genuinely wasn't sure if you knew how that stuff worked.
Again, if you want to comb through that and show me definitively that it can't work, let's chat. Tell me the hypothetical player, and we'll debate.
But why should I suddenly have to answer the question of a guy who ignores any posed to him, puts words in my mouth, and attempts to twist every one of my posts in order to save face?
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Would the Rockets want players back, or would they want draft picks? They would have an opening at backup Center, but would they settle for a more expensive guy like Andy, or would they want a couple of less expensive players? Would they want to primarily dump salary to make room for a 3rd "big" player? I know that they are under the cap, even with Harden's $13.7 million deal and Howard's $19 million deal. (ouch) However, if I count right, they only have 10 players under contact, and 3 are minimum type players, and 2 others have late first round type contracts. (around $1.5 million) They didn't have a 1st round pick in the 2013 draft though, so no guaranteed contract to hit their cap. It seems like it would make sense for them to make (and keep) room for next year when more premium free agents hit the market. Harden, Howard, and Lebron would be rather frightening. I think that Carmelo can opt out of his deal next year as well ..... and there are a few other premium types that could interest the Rockets. Maybe the cost to take Asik is also to take a contract like Lin (there was talk that the Rockets were looking to get rid of his contract) along with him. (which would give the Rockets additional room for next year) I don't know if he would be worth that cost. Maybe we trade Andy plus $4 million next year (to buy out the guarantee) and have to take a bad contract along with Asik. That would be OK this year, but next year it would create problems if we wanted to go after a big player of our own. One other thing I didn't realize is that the max deal is $19 million next year. Ouch! We would need almost 1/3 of our cap freed up to sign a big name guy. If we take on a big deal like $14 million, then we start adding guaranteed deals for next year ... then we add probably $5 million for Bennett, $1.2 or so for Karasev, either $4 million buyout or $9 million salary for Andy, (unless he is traded, but we'll use the $4 million guarantee here since it will probably be hard to move him without taking a big deal back, because of his injury past and salary) and Jack's $6 million. That's $30 million right there, just for the big deal we would take back, and the contracts we definitely have to pay as of right now. Then we would add in Irving. He's not going anywhere. We probably keep Thompson and Waiters. (unless we trade them, but again, we would have to do so without taking anything back, which is hard to do in today's NBA) That adds another $9 million in 2014 dollars. That puts us at $39 million. We would have 7 players under contract, (Bennett, Karasev, Jack, The player we add this year with a big 2014 salary, Irving, Thompson, and Waiters) and paying off Andy's $4 guaranteed money. We also have 1 or 2 2014 first round draft picks. (depending on how the Kings do this coming year) That could be another $4-$6 million in guaranteed money. That would put us at $43 million in 2014 cap dollars, plus the draft. (so $45 - $49 million in 2014 contracts/options) The cap will probably be $60 (OK, scratch that, probably $62 or so) million from what I have read. That would leave us $13 - 15 million to fill out the roster, and to add a premium free agent. I just found this breakdown while looking for the 2014 cap .... and it breaks things down nicely. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NBA Free Agency: How do Jarrett Jack and Earl Clark signings affect Cleveland's salary cap situation? http://www.fearthesword.com/2013/7/6/449...signings-affect -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They have the 2014 cap set somewhere around $62 million. We have room and flexibility right now, but we have to be careful that any max, or close to it deal, is well worth the price. That deal could impact our ability to go get a player worth a max deal in 2014. Once to the cap we could start using the exceptions and such. This is why I was leery about Asik before another poster told me that he had a poison pill that only applies to Chicago. It appears that he would be on a contract of about $8 million in 2014, as opposed $14 million. Big difference. Even so, if we traded for him without giving much back in contracts, that would make our 2014 "likely" commitments $37 million, with us giving up the rights to Andy, and with only the most likely of players returning to the Cavaliers, including our guaranteed contracts. That would be for 9 players under contract. We would have $15 million to fill out the roster, and try to find a premium free agent. As far as other free agents of a lesser quality but huge contracts, I would just be careful there. I would hate to get stuck with a deal like $8 million for a guy like Diop, who is a one dimensional player, who can only handle very limited minutes. I like the deal given to Clark. It's essentially a 1 year "show me" deal. The deal for Jack is a 3 year deal with a 4th year option. I like that deal too. He gives us a really nice 3 Guard rotation. I would be hesitant to give a huge deal to a guy who is just "OK". I worry about getting a Diop, or a Hughes, with a contract that leaves the team hamstrung in one of the more important free agent periods. Jefferson got a 3 year, $40 million deal. He makes right around $14 million per season. He would have put us in the situation I described above, but he would have given us a strong scorer in the middle. Maybe we could have worked out a sign and trade deal with the Jazz to get him, and dumped off Andy's salary, along with a couple of draft picks. Who knows? I would have been all for that. I do think that we'll add someone else, but through a trade. I just hope that we "win" the trade. (and Grant has been a pretty solid traded, but usually on the end of taking salary, not trying to move some) I would love to find a taker for Andy's salary ... but with his injury history, I just don't know who would take him. Now, on to a slightly different, but similar conversation ..... what teams might be in luxury tax range, and might fall out of playoff contention before the trade deadline rolls around, and might want to make a deal to save the 3-1 tax? What teams with a premium free agent might trade a big player who they are likely to lose in free agency? (Like maybe Kevin Love in Minnesota, though he seems happier with the new management)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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With signing of Jarrett Jack, Cavaliers roster beginning to take shape - Cleveland Cavaliers - Ohio http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-cava...-shape-1.411355The signing of free agent guard Jarrett Jack went a long way in clearing up some questions about the Cavaliers' roster (so long, Shaun Livingston and Wayne Ellington). With the start of training camp still three months away, the framework of the 15-man roster is taking shape. Barring a trade, the Cavaliers likely have 12 or 13 players under contract who will be on the team when the season begins. Of course, the Cavs are still in the market for a big man through either trade or free agency, and a few players (C.J. Miles and Kevin Jones specifically) have non-guaranteed contracts, so all of this is subject to change. The core four Player 2013-14 salary Under team control through... Kyrie Irving $5.6 million 2015-16 Tristan Thompson $4 million 2015-16 Dion Waiters $3.9 million 2016-17 Anthony Bennett $5.3 million* 2017-18 Key supplemental pieces Player 2013-14 salary Under team control through... Anderson Varejao $9 million 2014-15 Tyler Zeller $1.6 million 2016-17 Jarrett Jack $6.3 million 2016-17 Earl Clark $4.5 million 2014-15 Sergey Karasev $1.5 million* 2017-18 Useful, not necessary Player 2013-14 salary Under team control through... Alonzo Gee $3.3 million 2014-15 C.J. Miles $2.2 million*** 2013-14 Roster filler Player 2013-14 salary Under team control through... Kevin Jones $789,000*** 2014-15 Carrick Felix $473,000** 2014-15 Not expected back Player 2013-14 salary Under team control through... Chris Quinn $1.1 million*** 2013-14 * - Rookie contract not yet signed. Figure reached using 120 percent of rookie scale ** - Second-round pick. Figure reached using salary from last year’s draft slot *** - Non-guaranteed contract **** - Guys like Jones, Felix and perhaps Karasev are likely to spend time in the Development League this year. ***** - I need to come up with a new system besides all these asterisks. The yet-to-be-acquired big would push the roster to 14, leaving one open spot for a developmental guy, a third point guard … or both. Someone like Matthew Dellavedova, the undrafted rookie point guard out of St. Mary’s^ who will go to summer league with the Cavs, or perhaps a veteran shooter like Daniel Gibson, who loves this city, would like to return and can provide a much-needed skill (3-point shooting) in a (extremely) limited capacity. Of course, a trade involving one of the above players could shake up everything. What’s clear at this point is the Cavs significantly upgraded their backup point guard position. Shaun Livingston did an admirable job filling in for Irving last season, but Jack is arguably the best backup point guard in the league – although Darren Collison will make a strong case now that he is again a backup with the Los Angeles Clippers. The fact Jack can play big minutes at shooting guard alongside Irving (when Waiters is resting) means the Cavs filled two backup slots with one durable veteran.^^ The Cavs have roughly $12-15 million in cap space left for next season, but that’s an arbitrary figure because of the non-guaranteed contracts. Miles and/or Jones can be cut instantly to clear salary cap space for a bigger deal. Regardless, the Cavs are starting to fill a legitimate NBA roster, at least in spots 1-12. After three years of dancing to the D-League shuffle, that’s a welcomed change. ^ - The odds of Dellavedova breaking camp on the 15-man roster are slim, it’s just an example. But I could see him beginning the season on the Canton Charge roster as an NBA free agent. Maybe someone like Kenny Kadji, another summer league invite, would have a better chance at cracking the 15-man roster. Anyway, you get the idea. I'd still lean toward another veteran shooter filling out the roster, not another undrafted rookie. ^^ - Jack has played at least 79 games in all but one of his eight NBA seasons. One year, when he was traded, he even played in 83 games in the regular season. Now that’s a man. He should’ve asked for a one-game pay raise.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I just caught the signing of Jack. That's a good get. He is a legit starting quality player. With who we have, we are going to have fresh legs and a solid rotation.
I like it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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He can run a little hot and cold, but you get that with any backup player ..... and his "hot" periods are better than most.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I like the idea of Bynum ....... and I hate the idea of Bynum. If he's healthy and motivated, then a 1 year deal would be fantastic. If he's not, then it's a waste of money. Even if he doesn't work, we could still possibly trade him for another big money player, and use his expiring contract as an offset. If he takes a 1 year deal, then I guess I would be OK with it. He did want to come to Cleveland last year because he liked what we're building. Supposedly he likes Mike Brown too. Maybe he'd be motivated here. Cleveland Cavaliers join Dallas Mavericks in race for Andrew Bynum, sources say - ESPN http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/945787...num-sources-sayThe Cleveland Cavaliers have joined the Dallas Mavericks as a prime team to watch in the race to sign free-agent center Andrew Bynum. Sources close to the process told ESPN.com that the Cavaliers are legitimate contenders to sign Bynum after his lost season in Philadelphia, especially if the former Los Angeles Lakers All-Star is willing to sign a one-year deal. Initial indications are that the Cavaliers won't offer more than a one-year deal to Bynum to preserve all of their projected salary-cap space in the summer of 2014 and the expected free-agent pursuit of LeBron James. But Cleveland does still have roughly $15 million in available salary-cap space to use this summer and, sources say, they have legitimate interest in Bynum. The Mavericks are also actively pursuing Bynum in the wake of Dwight Howard's decision to sign with the Houston Rockets, sources previously told ESPN.com. The Mavs, though, have launched what sources describe as an "exhaustive" evaluation process regarding Bynum's problematic knees, wanting to be sure that the 25-year-old's health can justify a long-term contract after he failed to log a single second of court time for the 76ers in 2012-13. The Atlanta Hawks, as ESPN.com reported Saturday night, are the only other known suitors for Bynum, but sources say that free-agent guard Monta Ellis is their priority ahead of Bynum.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I like the Jack signing. He can be explosive and put up points in a hurry. He has some versatility and has the temperament to come off the bench.
Bynum? I was watching a Philly game last year and they were talking about him. I kept wondering why anyone would want to sign this guy. I understand his potential and it is exciting, but man, he misses a lot of time and I wonder if his heart is in the right place.
The one year would keep him motivated to stay on the court, stay in good shape, and play at his max potential.
I would love to see another year added as a team option but I doubt it.
Just look at it this way, a one year deal would be money we probably won't spend this year anyway. I can't see them handing out a contract with that type of money for anyone else at this point. It's a win/win if you think about it.
Bynum healthy and playing well + having a good backup PG behind Kyrie + Bennett being a good rookie + other guys getting better + new defensive minded coach who is familiar with organization
The Cavs have potential to be really good next year. They also have potential to be right back in the lottery considering their 2 best players (Irving and Bynum) are severe injury risks right now.
Kind of crazy if you think about it.
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Quote:
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Irving/??? Collison maybe
Waiters/Miles
Clark/Gee
Thompson/Bennett
Varejao/Zeller
My co-worker (who is a Heat fan from Nigeria via Florida) thinks the Cavs should sign Jarrett Jack.
Looks like he was right!
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I really like the idea of our #1 pick coming off the bench. It takes all that added pressure of being the #1 pick away, and instead places more incentive for him to work harder into the starting lineup.
Considering the type of draft it was, that was probably the best-case scenario for us. Take a guy 1 but still make him work for it, instead of throwing him to the wolves and having everyone scream bust when he starts off slow.
Plus with Bennett's game, I think there will be a learning curve. He loves getting to the basket, but it will be a lot harder at this level (duh).
I'm not going to lie, I haven't seen very much of him outside of several highlight reels. Seems like he can shoot a little but I didn't see enough of it. I may try and download a full game from last year.
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it really seems like Grant is focusing on multi-position versatility. that is a good thing as NBA teams are finding more and better ways at forcing teams to switch.
for defense:
Clark (SF,PF --- C against some of the physically weaker ones)
Jack (PG,SG --- feisty enough to at least compete with SF if stuck)
Bennett (SF/PF --- though he has miles to go on defense)
Felix (PG,SG,SF --- legimitate upside to guard all 3 wing spots. obviously, will likely struggle some in rookie year as he learns NBA game)
#gmstrong
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jc...
Not sure I see the upshot of signing Bynum on a one-year deal. He's not the missing piece to championship team here, and if the ultimate goal is signing a max deal player in 2014, you're either going to have to let Bynum walk or try to sign him for less than his value (assuming he does well and seeks a long-term deal from someone). I know some people have been talking about the possibility of two max or near-max deals, but I don't think that seems likely without dumping parts like Miami did.
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jc...
Not sure I see the upshot of signing Bynum on a one-year deal. He's not the missing piece to championship team here, and if the ultimate goal is signing a max deal player in 2014, you're either going to have to let Bynum walk or try to sign him for less than his value (assuming he does well and seeks a long-term deal from someone). I know some people have been talking about the possibility of two max or near-max deals, but I don't think that seems likely without dumping parts like Miami did.
Maybe as a trade piece later in the season to a contender if he does well?
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I get what you are saying. If we sign Bynum to a 1yr deal, then he bolts, it doesn't help our team long-term. I think it's easy to get blinded by the desire to make the playoffs and be competitive after the last 3 years.
However, I also think that we have a much, much higher chance of signing Bynum to a long-term deal next offseason (if he proves to be healthy enough for it) if we have him on the team this year. He can play a season w/o Kobe Bryant and see that basketball can be fun again.
I think that is why it would be worth the risk (and the risk of him not resigning is less than the risk of giving him that multi-year deal IMO).
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I think the hope is that he develops great chemistry with Kyrie Irving (as well as everyone else) and that could help him stick around (if that's what the Cavs want) A big man's favorite thing is a good point guard.
More importantly we have a piece that can help us get out of the dumps right now, assuming he stays healthy.
I think Dan Gilbert was genuine (Pat Shurmur voice) when saying they're done with the lottery, I think he's tired of tanking. If they were to land Bynum on a one year spot, I'd say that's about as productive of an offseason as it gets for not going all out and splurging. They drafted a guy whom they thought was the top prospect in the game, used another pick as an investment for the future (Karasev), signed a backup PG for probably a tad bit more than they wanted to, and then a big man in Bynum. They can still chase a max deal in 2014. I'm happy with the offseason even if they don't get Bynum.
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However, I also think that we have a much, much higher chance of signing Bynum to a long-term deal next offseason (if he proves to be healthy enough for it) if we have him on the team this year.
That's my question though. If you have the cap space to sign a guy to a near-max deal, do you really want that guy to be Andrew Bynum?
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However, I also think that we have a much, much higher chance of signing Bynum to a long-term deal next offseason (if he proves to be healthy enough for it) if we have him on the team this year.
That's my question though. If you have the cap space to sign a guy to a near-max deal, do you really want that guy to be Andrew Bynum?
that depends on what he does for us this year(assuming the 1yr deal). he's likely a backup option for that money if he's available&healthy either way. so, I would rather get a year tryout with him first.
if healthy, then, yes, I would want to pay him and enjoy Irving+Bynum. if not, then it'd be frustrating to clog up the cap space that way.
Mike Brown coached him before, so he obviously isn't killing the idea.
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Hard to believe, but he's still only 25 years old. I know that big men have a very small window of being great and healthy, and maybe even smaller than that in his case, but for us, it could be worth it, depending on what kind of offseason we have next year. If nothing else, signing him for a year this offseason buys us more time on that decision.
I think the other thing to think about is that our situation with max contracts.
I do think there is a chance Lebron returns. It's just a chance right now, that could grow into more as next season develops, but outside of LBJ, is there another contract that we would want to offer to a guy willing to come to Cleveland? I think that is something to think about.
It might be OK to hand a guy like Bynum a long term deal if things don't work out with other contracts. I would rather take my chances with him than giving another guy who may not even be worth that deal (like the Rudy Gay contract).
Basically if we don't grab Lebron, it might be OK to give Bynum a deal next year because it's money we can't really spend otherwise, since most top-line free agents don't even consider us.
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I think that the Cavaliers like him playing alongside Kyrie, (as someone else mentioned) and even Dion. Both guys can penetrate and dish nicely, and they would make a guy like Bynum incredibly productive.
He would have to be on a 1 year "show me" deal. The Cavaliers could worry about whether and/or how to resign him next year, if he appears to be working out.
The biggest questions for me are (obviously) his health, and whether or not someone else will plop a long term deal on the table. (which would seem unlikely to me if he won't even work out for teams)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Fair enough. Personally I think tying up most of your money in Irving and Bynum (assuming healthy) would be foolish. That puts a ton of pressure on Dion, Tristan and Anthony.
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Fair enough. Personally I think tying up most of your money in Irving and Bynum (assuming healthy) would be foolish. That puts a ton of pressure on Dion, Tristan and Anthony.
It definitely could be foolish.
It would depend on what other realistic options we have in the future. Who is a possibility for this team? Basically you have to cross off every upper echelon future FA with the exception of probably Lebron.
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I just looked .... and in 2011 Bynum hit career highs in scoring, PPG, and rebounds under Brown. He had his 2nd best season in steals, blocks, and assists as well.I didn't know that he was that productive under Brown. No wonder he wants to play for him, especially if he's on a 1 year "show me" deal. He could top 20 PPG if he stays healthy. On the down side, he only played 60 games in 2011. Maybe between Bynum and Andy we get a starting quality Center at both starter and backup ..... and maybe one is healthy while the other has his inevitable injuries. We could still work with Zeller to be the primary backup when we dump Varejao's contract ..... which is about 99% certain in 2014. I don't see many options rushing to the shores of Lake Erie. I was pleasantly surprised that we were quickly able to sign Clark and Jack ..... though obviously neither guy is an All Star. If we do sign Bynum, I bet that Byron Scott would have to think "Why couldn't I have those type of guys? How Come I had to develop all of the young guys, and play scrub veterans like Luke Walton and Omri Casspi????"   (even though I thought that Walton played a whole lot better than I thought possible at times last year)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not to hog the discussion, but we're looking at Elton Brand too? How many PF do we need? (or is there a trade in the works for one of ours?) http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/..._special-reportCavaliers have inquired about Elton Brand Marc Berman of The New York Post writes that the Cavaliers have been one of the teams to contact free-agent forward Elton Brand. The New York Knicks are trying to snag the power forward to add another big man off the bench. Brand played with the Dallas Mavericks last season, averaging 7.2 points and 6 rebounds in 72 games. The 14-year veteran has also played with the Chicago Bulls, Los Angeles Clippers and Philadelphia 76ers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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On the down side, he only played 60 games in 2011.
66 game season
I'm not opposed to Bynum because I think he's a bad player, assuming he's healthy. I just don't think signing him to a one-year deal makes sense for any reason other than to try to avoid being in the lottery next year. I don't really want to sign him long-term because I don't like the idea of hamstringing our ability to sign a top-flight SG or SF next year by tying up a ton of space with Bynum, nor do I like the idea of relying on our PG and C to do the bulk of our scoring.
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