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I've read a few places where they like Kenneh's tackling ability and physical play.
I also think Wade was one of our best character guys like you alluded to. He tweeted something about being injured, so I wonder if we could have put him on the IR instead of just cutting him? For his sake I hope he gets a shot somewhere.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I would have thought Kent Richardson, and Abdul Kenneh would have at least been cut first.
I wonder if they consider letting a guy go earlier rather than later so he has a jump on picking up with another team. Kind of a back-hand favor.
Maybe that doesn't make any sense.
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Kind of a back-hand favor.... Maybe that doesn't make any sense.
I would hope that is the case. Gives the guy a break...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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is he an OLB? Why are we signing so many LBs?
Eric Martin - OLB
Now THIS will make Django happy. He was banging the table hard for Martin pre-draft. The Saints board I post on sometimes was really pumped about this kid's performance in camp and preseason. I'm surprised he was cut with the lack of depth and injuries they have at the position. There were some articles about how he was doing very well there.
Pretty much what clevesteve said. Was and am a big believer in "caveman"'s (his nickname) abilities, but it's strange and not a good sign that an OLB-desperate team like the Saints, who just switched D-systems, is already letting him go.
That said, who cares what they think and what they didn't see in him, Martin gets a quick look in Cleveland and if Mingo misses any time (or goes on PUP), he is in a good position to survive the last cuts, as he only has to battle Hazel for the last OLB spot. Of course, they could look to add another OLB after final cuts in that scenario too, but he'd be a nice stash for the PS.
As for RBs: There should be about 10-20 pretty decent RBs cut (as always on final cut day, position is crowded), that are much better than Maysonet or Cook as the no3 RB. I'd even say there will be as many RBs, who are better pure runners than BJax on cut day.
RBs on the bubble and names to look out for:
T.Cadet (NO)
whoever Cincy cuts: C.Peerman, R.Burkhead, D.Herron (probably 2 of them)
L.Ball (DEN)
A.Green or J.Starks (GB)
Kerwynn Williams (IND, 7th round rook)
C.Gray (KC)
Gillislee (MIA, 5th round rook)
R.Torain (NYG)
WAS cuts: will have to cut at least 2 of Royster, Keiland Williams, C.Thompson (5th rd rook) and J.Jamison (7th rd rook)
With most of those runners available I see little chance for the "lucky loser" winner of Maysonet or Cook to keep their roster spot for very long.
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I've read a few places where they like Kenneh's tackling ability and physical play.
I also think Wade was one of our best character guys like you alluded to. He tweeted something about being injured , so I wonder if we could have put him on the IR instead of just cutting him? For his sake I hope he gets a shot somewhere.
CLEVELAND (92.3 The Fan) – The Cleveland Browns reached an injury settlement with cornerback Trevin Wade Wednesday and were awarded rookie linebacker Eric Martin off waivers from New Orleans.
Wade, who sustained a sprained shoulder during training camp, was waived by the Browns to make room for Martin.
http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/08/28...in-from-saints/
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Cutting Owen = solid move lmao!
Good bye and GOOD RIDDANCE!
I don't understand all this hate for Marecic. No doubt he wasn't good, but he is a player at useless position .
I saw a great article on the Browns site about a new breed of FB. That is exactly what I want, a player who can make plays and not just some guy with a picnic ham sized head simply blocking.
why spend a 4th round pick on him then?
I think Peen's point, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is why hate on Marecic? He didn't get to pick when or where he was drafted... so he plays a position of diminished importance and he's not all that good at it. He comes to play, he plays hard, he's just not that good (not unlike a lot of Browns draft picks since 1999)... I've never been able to hate on a guy who shows up and does his best. Doesn't mean I want to keep them on my team but some of these posters get downright personal, like Marecic stole their girlfriend or something... if you want to hate on anybody, do as you suggest, and hate on the people that used a 4th round pick on him.
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Marecic was a bad pick, no way of defending it, but it's actually a backhanded compliment to Heckert's drafting when the biggest "bust" that comes to mind and is the preferred bashing boy on fan boards is a late 4th round pick FB that didn't make it in the NFL.
Please take a look at who was drafted around Marecic in that draft. Ozzie "the draft god" Newsome himself drafted WR T.Doss right before Marecic and just cut him some days ago. Ask some Ravens fans if they're crying over it. Most picks there are "Marecic's", as in bubble guys or already out of the league with the occasional "finds" like C.Allen, Skrine and Sherman, which shows more than anything that it was an extremely good CB class. In fact, Heckert made up for the Marecic selection with Skrine and Pinkston, who now are looking like two of the better picks of that round.
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I've read a few places where they like Kenneh's tackling ability and physical play.
I also think Wade was one of our best character guys like you alluded to. He tweeted something about being injured , so I wonder if we could have put him on the IR instead of just cutting him? For his sake I hope he gets a shot somewhere.
CLEVELAND (92.3 The Fan) – The Cleveland Browns reached an injury settlement with cornerback Trevin Wade Wednesday and were awarded rookie linebacker Eric Martin off waivers from New Orleans.
Wade, who sustained a sprained shoulder during training camp, was waived by the Browns to make room for Martin.
http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/08/28...in-from-saints/
Thanks for the help pblack
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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is he an OLB? Why are we signing so many LBs?
whoever Cincy cuts: C.Peerman, R.Burkhead, D.Herron (probably 2 of them)
Having seen "Boom" Herron a lot at OSU if Cincy cuts him, I want him! He never gives up, and will take it to the House when you least expect it. He did it the other day in Cincy's game.
But i dont expect them to cut him.
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Well, if they keep Herron (who is the most likely to be cut imho), they will have to cut someone else. They have Bernard and BJGE as "locks" to make the roster. So one more or max 2. If they cut Burkhead, who they spent a 6th rounder on last draft after selecting Bernard already, which means they really like him, then I'd be happy to add him. Burkhead has a nice preseason going though, so I don't see them cutting him. Peerman has also always produced when given a chance. He ran 36 times last season for 258yds (7.2ypc !) and in 11 preseason carries has 43yds.
Whoever the Bengals and Redskins have to cut would be the first I'd look at probably
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I have really liked Burkhead this entire preseason ... he runs very hard and is a willing blocker. I doubt they'd release him.
Is Ray Helu on the bubble for the skins? He's someone of interest as well. Denver, Green Bay, San Francisco, and New Orleans are also places to look with some depth at RB.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Helu was just named the RB2 for the Skins. He's a lock to stay.
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Helu earned himself the top backup job for Morris in Washington, so if he remains healthy he's 100% a Redskin.
As for the Bengals, they can't keep 5 RBs, maybe they "stash" Burkhead as their no4 RB on the roster too, but they HAVE TO release one of Herron, Peerman or Burkhead. I believe Herron is a sure cut considering the depth/investment and production to date...now the only question is if they keep 3 or 4 RBs. Don't share the same enthusiasm about Herron and would prefer Peerman or Burkhead over him.
Who knows, maybe they shock the NFL by releasing (or trading) BJGE. He does make over 2mil and they'd take no cap hit. If they believe in Bernard and like their depth, they could go that way. They also have D.Scott on PUP waiting to be added mid season, so something has to give there sooner or later
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Thanks logo I didn't know that.
I had been thinking about the Browns issue at RB so I decided to text one of my good friends who was drafted by the Titans this year ... he said their RBs are very deep. CJ/Greene are locks ... but they also have Reynaud, Parmalee, and Jacke Battle (familiar with Norv's system) ... I'd be interested in this team's cuts as well.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Almost forgot about asking you about him  You know I was a big fan of him pre-draft and thought he was a great fit for our outside CB hole. How's he doing? I read that he's struggling to earn playing time there. It's a tough situation for him as they are settled on the outside with McCourty and Verner and he really isn't and never was a slot/dime guy. He'd have a much better chance to play in Cleveland than in Tennessee. Still bummed that we passed on him in the 3rd round. As for their RB depth: not a fan, but Reynaud would be worth a look as a KR. We still have no real KR on the roster, but he's also no good as a runner. The Dion Lewis injury really opened up two needs, although he also was only a below AVG KR, but still way better than what we have left.
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Marecic was a bad pick, no way of defending it,
I hope you don't think I was defending, all I was saying is don't hate Marecic over it. The guy played hard and tried his best.
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Please take a look at who was drafted around Marecic in that draft. Ozzie "the draft god" Newsome himself drafted WR T.Doss right before Marecic and just cut him some days ago. Ask some Ravens fans if they're crying over it.
When you are a bad team, every missed draft pick is magnified. On bad teams you see fans go ga-ga over a 7th round WR because he shows a flash in the preseason, you see them complain that a 5th round pick isn't an immediate contributor, you see them gripe that a 4th round pick is out of the NFL in 3 years... Good teams don't do that, they look at a 7th round WR and hope he turns into something but they aren't surprised when he doesn't and honestly, they don't care.
yebat' Putin
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Almost forgot about asking you about him
You know I was a big fan of him pre-draft and thought he was a great fit for our outside CB hole. How's he doing? I read that he's struggling to earn playing time there. It's a tough situation for him as they are settled on the outside with McCourty and Verner and he really isn't and never was a slot/dime guy. He'd have a much better chance to play in Cleveland than in Tennessee. Still bummed that we passed on him in the 3rd round.
As for their RB depth: not a fan, but Reynaud would be worth a look as a KR. We still have no real KR on the roster, but he's also no good as a runner. The Dion Lewis injury really opened up two needs, although he also was only a below AVG KR, but still way better than what we have left.
Yeah I have only spoken to him a few times because he's busy, but he's primarily going to have to play slot if he gets on the field this year ... and that is not a strength. He has made a few plays, but also has been beaten badly a few times (which is probably the norm). Based on what he's told me, their defensive system and approach does not suit him ideally (I would have loved him here as well). But I think he's confident that he'll at least be active for each week because he's done well in special teams.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Marecic was a bad pick, no way of defending it,
I hope you don't think I was defending, all I was saying is don't hate Marecic over it. The guy played hard and tried his best.
Not at all, I was more adding to your response at others who kept bashing at him relentlessly.
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Please take a look at who was drafted around Marecic in that draft. Ozzie "the draft god" Newsome himself drafted WR T.Doss right before Marecic and just cut him some days ago. Ask some Ravens fans if they're crying over it.
When you are a bad team, every missed draft pick is magnified. On bad teams you see fans go ga-ga over a 7th round WR because he shows a flash in the preseason, you see them complain that a 5th round pick isn't an immediate contributor, you see them gripe that a 4th round pick is out of the NFL in 3 years... Good teams don't do that, they look at a 7th round WR and hope he turns into something but they aren't surprised when he doesn't and honestly, they don't care.
I understand that and it's just "natural" that frustrated fans of losing teams keep bringing up the duds when things go wrong, but it's really unbalanced around here. Heckert has added some nice depth and even starting pieces in the late rounds, mini-trades and even UDFA: Skrine, Pinkston, Winn, Cameron, Greco, Robertson, Benjamin, Gipson, Bademosi, Obi...we're looking at 3-4 decent starters/contributors and as many very useful young depth/ST-aces here. If you add all all the "props" those moves have received on here, you'd still come up short to the hate-posts on Marecic and that can't all be excused with losing, that's a problem the "fans" have, cal it battered-Brownsfan syndrom or whatever. The inability to evaluate player per player, move per move.
As I said, at least now the poor poster boy punching bag for a losing team now is a late 4th round FB. It's an upgrade and far cry from the days when those guys were Top 50 selections. My point I guess is that Marecic was not the difference between 5 wins or 8 and he won't make or break Heckert's resumee. TRich and Weeden will. Their development or lack thereof will close the book on Heckert one way or the other, not Marecic, who was a whiff he made up for 10 times with numerous other very good moves/picks/additions.
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Martin gets a quick look in Cleveland and if Mingo misses any time (or goes on PUP)
Just a quick note, Mingo can't go on PUP. You cannot participate in practice or games during the preseason to qualify for PUP.
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Marecic was a bad pick, no way of defending it, but it's actually a backhanded compliment to Heckert's drafting when the biggest "bust" that comes to mind and is the preferred bashing boy on fan boards is a late 4th round pick FB that didn't make it in the NFL.
There is someone else who comes to mind if he doesn't perform well this season. . .
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Almost forgot about asking you about him
You know I was a big fan of him pre-draft and thought he was a great fit for our outside CB hole. How's he doing? I read that he's struggling to earn playing time there. It's a tough situation for him as they are settled on the outside with McCourty and Verner and he really isn't and never was a slot/dime guy. He'd have a much better chance to play in Cleveland than in Tennessee. Still bummed that we passed on him in the 3rd round.
As for their RB depth: not a fan, but Reynaud would be worth a look as a KR. We still have no real KR on the roster, but he's also no good as a runner. The Dion Lewis injury really opened up two needs, although he also was only a below AVG KR, but still way better than what we have left.
Yeah I have only spoken to him a few times because he's busy, but he's primarily going to have to play slot if he gets on the field this year ... and that is not a strength. He has made a few plays, but also has been beaten badly a few times (which is probably the norm). Based on what he's told me, their defensive system and approach does not suit him ideally (I would have loved him here as well). But I thine he's confident that he'll at least be active for each week because he's done well in special teams.
Thanks for sharing this information. He's a physical CB who has played a lot of zone at UConn and in Tennessee they're switching to a press-man scheme similar to what Horton will utilize mostly. So the struggle and discomfort would be the same here, but based on his willingness to tackle and overall physicality he should be able to adapt to it just fine in time and that's why the Titans selected him. I guess what he hates is to play catch up after pressing, as he's not the fastest CB around and you'll get burned from time to time, but just tell him to own the WR at the LOS, so he doesnt have to turn his hips too often  He needs to model his game to the likes of Sherman and Browner, similar prospects: big, physical CBs, who can tackle and play the ball in the air.
Will be interesting to follow both his and McFadden's career from here on out. I hope both end up being good starting CBs
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I concur. 
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Almost forgot about asking you about him
You know I was a big fan of him pre-draft and thought he was a great fit for our outside CB hole. How's he doing? I read that he's struggling to earn playing time there. It's a tough situation for him as they are settled on the outside with McCourty and Verner and he really isn't and never was a slot/dime guy. He'd have a much better chance to play in Cleveland than in Tennessee. Still bummed that we passed on him in the 3rd round.
As for their RB depth: not a fan, but Reynaud would be worth a look as a KR. We still have no real KR on the roster, but he's also no good as a runner. The Dion Lewis injury really opened up two needs, although he also was only a below AVG KR, but still way better than what we have left.
Yeah I have only spoken to him a few times because he's busy, but he's primarily going to have to play slot if he gets on the field this year ... and that is not a strength. He has made a few plays, but also has been beaten badly a few times (which is probably the norm). Based on what he's told me, their defensive system and approach does not suit him ideally (I would have loved him here as well). But I think he's confident that he'll at least be active for each week because he's done well in special teams.
Thanks for sharing this information. He's a physical CB who has played a lot of zone at UConn and in Tennessee they're switching to a press-man scheme similar to what Horton will utilize mostly. So the struggle and discomfort would be the same here, but based on his willingness to tackle and overall physicality he should be able to adapt to it just fine in time and that's why the Titans selected him. I guess what he hates is to play catch up after pressing, as he's not the fastest CB around and you'll get burned from time to time, but just tell him to own the WR at the LOS, so he doesnt have to turn his hips too often He needs to model his game to the likes of Sherman and Browner, similar prospects: big, physical CBs, who can tackle and play the ball in the air.
Will be interesting to follow both his and McFadden's career from here on out. I hope both end up being good starting CBs
That's an nice comparison to Sherman ... hopefully his career turns out that way. And btw, just as an interesting tidbit ... Blidi told me a while ago that McFadden was one of his favorite guys at the combine ... he said he's just a great dude.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Martin gets a quick look in Cleveland and if Mingo misses any time (or goes on PUP)
Just a quick note, Mingo can't go on PUP. You cannot participate in practice or games during the preseason to qualify for PUP.
Thanks for the heads up, totally forgot that. At this point all signs seem to indicate that he just goes on the injury report for the first games and will be active once he's cleared. That or he goes to this comeback-IR list if his "condition" doesn't get better by week 1
@D4Life
That's good to hear about McFadden. From all I've read and heard he has a good work ethic and is a team player and is very competitive, always a plus. We will see if his talents are up to the task as he is not exactly a size/speed CB
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Marecic was a bad pick, no way of defending it, but it's actually a backhanded compliment to Heckert's drafting when the biggest "bust" that comes to mind and is the preferred bashing boy on fan boards is a late 4th round pick FB that didn't make it in the NFL.
There is someone else who comes to mind if he doesn't perform well this season. . .
Add Josh Gordon to that list.
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funny thing, I"m not worried about Josh Gordon performing.. He's got the skills. I'm more worried about him staying out of trouble.
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funny thing, I"m not worried about Josh Gordon performing.. He's got the skills. I'm more worried about him staying out of trouble.
Which is what I believe has been the biggest question on him from day 1. I really haven't seen many, if any question his talent and the potential which goes along with that talent.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I've read a few places where they like Kenneh's tackling ability and physical play.
I also think Wade was one of our best character guys like you alluded to. He tweeted something about being injured , so I wonder if we could have put him on the IR instead of just cutting him? For his sake I hope he gets a shot somewhere.
CLEVELAND (92.3 The Fan) – The Cleveland Browns reached an injury settlement with cornerback Trevin Wade Wednesday and were awarded rookie linebacker Eric Martin off waivers from New Orleans.
Wade, who sustained a sprained shoulder during training camp, was waived by the Browns to make room for Martin.
http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/08/28...in-from-saints/
I hope Wade got a nice settlement (HE deserves it) and I hope he gets another shot in the NFL as he really deserves that as well.
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I was considerably less impressed with Wade than you evidently were.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Rookie
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Rookie
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a lot of guys can put in the effort in practice and the preseason. wade didnt catch my eye much. i doubt he could have been a difference maker in the regular season.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
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The chances of a 7th rounder sticking aren't that much better than any UDFA. Especially when we are bringing in 5 each season at the same position to compete. I suppose it is important to not get very attached to them. I don't think many of us are bemoaning the loss of Justin Hamilton these days.
Probably more people are upset about our UDFA David Simms than Eric Hagg, Don Carey, Clifton Geathers etc. etc.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,623 Likes: 823 |
I have often wondered what sort of money is involved with a injury settlement? I wonder if they are all different or if there is some formula used league wide?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,654 Likes: 510 |
We had a friend of the family who was drafted by the Falcons in the 7th round about a decade ago ... he tore his ACL in camp and they decided to just go with an injury settlement ... there was a back and forth between the agent/team until they settled on a number (IIRC it was near $150,000) and he got to keep his signing bonus obviously. He was basically paid a third of his base salary for the year and then was able to sign with any other team if possible
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
With Shayne Graham and his back tightening up on him...
I really hope that we look into late cuts to find a worthwhile kicker. What's Jeff Wolfert doing these days? He was always great in the preseason. Or Kickalicious.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
David Nelson needs cut immediately.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,003 Likes: 370 |
What are the odds that Graham's back tightened up on him ........ in 90 degree weather? lol Even Bernie was making jokes about that. It just doesn't happen very often.
Chud wanted to see what would happen if Lanning was forced into double duty, and if he could kick in game conditions. That's all that was.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I read that the Bengals are shopping Dontay Moch and if they can't trade him he will be cut. I remember quite a few people liking him in the draft a couple of years ago. Quote:
There will be players placed on injured reserve, left on PUP lists and perhaps even a trade or two as teams set their initial rosters for the 2013 season. According to Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network, the Bengals would like to make linebacker Dontay Moch one of those players.
Moch, a third-round pick in 2011, has not made much of an impact for the Bengals in his two years with the team. He fractured his foot during his rookie season and missed the entire year and then kicked off his second season with a four-game suspension for violating the performance enhancing drug policy. He played a handful of snaps in one game and then spent the rest of the year on the non-football injury list because of migraine headaches.
Link
Last edited by cfrs15; 08/30/13 11:03 AM.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,135 Likes: 223 |
Quote:
David Nelson needs cut immediately.
While watching the game last night I said that...then he'd make a nice play and I'd reverse that...then it happened a couple more times.
It got to be funny after awhile.
In the end tho, I had to remind myself that the guy hadn't played in a year and just started practicing last week after being out that year. I'd like him to make the team - along with Gurley - at least for the first two games.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,194 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,194 Likes: 136 |
Quote:
Quote:
David Nelson needs cut immediately.
While watching the game last night I said that...then he'd make a nice play and I'd reverse that...then it happened a couple more times.
It got to be funny after awhile.
In the end tho, I had to remind myself that the guy hadn't played in a year and just started practicing last week after being out that year. I'd like him to make the team - along with Gurley - at least for the first two games.
Exactly right. He's a big target that is RUSTY.. he may still end up getting cut, but I doubt it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
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J'Marcus Webb cut. Quote:
Quarterback Jordan Palmer isn’t the only player getting a jump on letting the world know that he won’t be on the Bears’ 53-man roster.
When tackle J’Marcus Webb took a pay cut earlier this month, the assumption was that trimming his salary would allow him to keep his job with the Bears for the 2013 season even though rookie Jordan Mills was going to be the starting right tackle.
It appears that assumption was incorrect. Webb took to Twitter on Friday morning to announce that his time with the Bears has come to an end.
Link
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Camp cuts (and other camp moves)
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