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What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
5-3, maybe 6-2
QB play flat out lost the Miami and Baltimore games. Even serviceable QB play wins those games. Then the 3 we won.
Detroit is debatable.
We still lose to KC and Green Bay.
I will probably get another earful for that, but Weeden WAS actually serviceable in the BAL game. He was NOT the reason we lost that game. He didn't do much to win it either, sure, but he was servicable and it wasn't enough for a win, just as Campbell was servicable in KC and it wasn't enough.
I stopped reading right there. Cambell threw for two scores against the best defense in the league. We had 6 points in that loss to Baltimore, just STOP.
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6 points against Baltimore.
Sorry, man, but you're really on an island.
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STOP,, PLEASE STOP.. Weeden is a waste product.. You can't look at one game and make any determination about a player, but you can look at their body of work and see if he's any good or not, and Weeden just isn't.
Now, can we please return to the subject... TRich...
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I do not blame the FO at all...TRich would not have made much of a difference here. Our RBs dropped like flies in the preseason. Maybe they could have scrambled for a better backup since going into week one with Rainey and D.Johnson was a joke and asking for trouble. There also were and still are some decent rookie runners on some PS (many have been activated since) that I think would be upgrades as pure runners (pass protection would be a problem though), but that's just personal opinion (Kerwynn Williams is still out there, I liked G.Winn too, he's on the Steelers PS).
We haven't tanked the season as a team with the TRich trade, but we sure tanked the season at RB. I'm a little disappointed in their stubbornness giving McGahee touches. Every street FA can get you 3.5ypc, which is still bad, but would be a huge upgrade to McGahee's 2.9. Speaking of: why don't we re-sign Hardesty? He worked out for some team a couple of weeks ago. What about Redman? At least give Obi and Fozzy more touches and make it a committee and add some trickery with Gray, Little and Gordon (who are good, tough runners for receivers) to make up a little for the talent there.
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Now, can we please return to the subject... TRich...
I'm not rooting against the guy or anything (I am rooting against Indy for obvious reasons) because I don't think we need that to validate the trade.
T-Rich is never going to be on AP's level, he's probably not gonna be on Shady McCoy or Jamal Charles level either. That's kinda what we were expecting when we traded up to take him at 3. When you draft a back that high, you better be getting a stud. (I still don't have a problem with the trade-up because of what we thought we were getting, I have no problem with management doing what they have to do, to get their guy, whether it was needed or how good he is, is another conversation)
Trent can be a lot better, but he's never going to be a top 5 back. If he strings together a few nice games, that's great for him, but it doesn't change my opinion that the move was great for us and our future.
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I prefer Obi to McGahee. And I like the speed Fozzy provides.
The article cfrs posted was pretty much spot on. Richardson lacks explosive burst. Which is basically the only thing a running back needs. (vision being second which he also seems to lack).
I'm excited for Dion Lewis. I hope as time goes on the Browns become exclusively a scat back offense.
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6 points against Baltimore.
Sorry, man, but you're really on an island.
This wasn't about Weeden. It was about the hypothetical scenario of "what if we had AVG QB play every game" and you can score around that with an AVG QB performance if everything else falters (which it did: no running, drops, bad OL play, remember Cousins and Schwartz the first two weeks? aka the turnstiles?). When every player plays "AVG", an Offense scores around 20p, when 8 of 11 starters play bad, they score less. Sure, you can still score and make up for that with a GOOD or better QB performance, but we're talking AVG here and that he did deliver imho.
Also, maybe argue with PFF about it while your at it, so I'm NOT on an island when it comes to this game. They graded the game, play by play and DESPITE the 6p gave him a positive grade, I didn't make it up. Cousins got something like a -5 or -7 for that one. Schwartz wasn't much better and neither was Little or our RB. Another Browns fan site who did a play by play came to the same conclusion.
Have fun blasting me, but AVG QB play does not make up for that kind of stuff, that's why it's AVG and not good. Weeden was not good, but he wasn't bad either, he didn't turn it over, delivered catchable balls 2/3 of the times, had a decent 6.9ypa and a QBr of 83.8, that's as AVG as it gets and none of it was garbage time.
I really don't want to make this about Weeden again, he's gone and a lame duck backup QB now. He is what he is, a busted 1st round QB and a huge, red-headed disappointment. I just don't see how AVG QB play would have changed much in our record, as we got AVG pretty much in all games outside the GB, MIA and Lions games and we would have lost at least 2 of those no matter what.
If anything this "hypothetical scenario" proves that "AVG" is not enough at QB to field a winner....that should be the point here: Whoever thinks we'd be 5-3 or better with Campbell-like play (or Hoyer for that matter), is delusional. We need better, that's it. Even IF we'd sneak a win more here or there and make the WC somehow, we'd still be a one and out with AVG QB play. The solution at the position is NOT on the roster, and neither on IR.
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What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
5-3, maybe 6-2
QB play flat out lost the Miami and Baltimore games. Even serviceable QB play wins those games. Then the 3 we won.
Detroit is debatable.
We still lose to KC and Green Bay.
Not picking on you specifically, but the term "average QB" is not a very sunny scenario. The Bengals are 6-3 with an "average QB" and they have a pretty good D.
Does anyone believe they are or will be SB material with their "average QB"? I certainly don't. Sure you have exceptions to the rule. Flacco is an average QB who played lights out during their playoff run and SB game last year. Trent Dilfer was nothing more than average at best in regards to winning a SB.
But by an overwhelming margin, an average QB will never get you where you want to be. I think you pointed that out very well by your example of losing to Green Bay. Alex Smith and KC are winning every game so far, but how many really think they're SB winning material?
That's why I believe those who feel you need your last piece of the puzzle is a franchise QB are correct. To find a long term solution at the QB position to string together a dynasty, you need to draft one. And winning 8-10 games a year stuck in mediocrity lessens your chances of having the ammunition needed to get that QB.
But when you get that chance, you better get it right. That hasn't been done here yet and we will have another opportunity. If this regime doesn't get it right, they will be placed on the same level as previous regimes and we will never be above mediocre at best until we answer that QB question.
JMHO
And yes, that's where the Dolphins are with Tannehill.
BTW- For whoever it was that said we should get back on topic. Do you even read this board?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think my favorite part of this trade is watching the emotional roller coaster over on the Colts board.
When the trade happened - ZOMG we ROBBED THE BROWNS, a franchise back, he's going to break out, it was all the Browns fault he didn't produce!
Now - It's the O-lines fault, it's the Offensive coordinators fault, he is going to break out very soon because he is learning the playbook.
Literally every excuse Browns fans had for him not being very good (sans injury) they are using. I'ts like Deja Vu in Blue and white.
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I don't 'want' average QB play.
I was simply answering the question that was asked of "where would we be with average QB play"
Average QB play could make this team a playoff team .. Average QB play doesn't make you a Super Bowl contender.
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I think my favorite part of this trade is watching the emotional roller coaster over on the Colts board.
When the trade happened - ZOMG we ROBBED THE BROWNS, a franchise back, he's going to break out, it was all the Browns fault he didn't produce!
Now - It's the O-lines fault, it's the Offensive coordinators fault, he is going to break out very soon because he is learning the playbook.
Literally every excuse Browns fans had for him not being very good (sans injury) they are using. I'ts like Deja Vu in Blue and white.
That's funny...LOL
#GMSTRONG
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I think my favorite part of this trade is watching the emotional roller coaster over on the Colts board.
When the trade happened - ZOMG we ROBBED THE BROWNS, a franchise back, he's going to break out, it was all the Browns fault he didn't produce!
Now - It's the O-lines fault, it's the Offensive coordinators fault, he is going to break out very soon because he is learning the playbook.
Literally every excuse Browns fans had for him not being very good (sans injury) they are using. I'ts like Deja Vu in Blue and white.
That's funny...LOL
When I tried to (very objectively) explain why he just isn't very good, I was told I had no idea what I was talking about, how I didn't know anything about football.
I literally had one guy tell me Richardson was the next Earl Cambell. LOL
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so much for blackmon....what an idiot!
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It is hard to judge Tannehill as he has had the worst pass protection in the league. He has been sacked 38 times so far this season and is pressured on the majority of his dropbacks.
That's true ... but he also seems to be one of those "mobile" guys who has no idea how to use his mobility. I think he rolls into as much pressure as he rolls away from, from what I have seen of him. His OL does him no favors, but I don't think that he does his OL any favors either.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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When I tried to (very objectively) explain why he just isn't very good, I was told I had no idea what I was talking about, how I didn't know anything about football.
I literally had one guy tell me Richardson was the next Earl Cambell. LOL
We should revive the thread about TRich that was debated heavily before the season. There was a lot of smack being posted by certain posters.
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I think most of us gave Trent the benefit of the doubt because he played hurt.
He comes into this season, and we're all ready to see Trent unleashed, and sure enough, it's the same as last year. I understand our line isn't the best run blocking line in the world, but great backs find a way.
I wanted to believe he was great, but when I heard he was traded, I wasn't even upset about it. If we had traded Gordon or Cameron, I'd have been mad.
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I think my favorite part of this trade is watching the emotional roller coaster over on the Colts board.
When the trade happened - ZOMG we ROBBED THE BROWNS, a franchise back, he's going to break out, it was all the Browns fault he didn't produce!
Now - It's the O-lines fault, it's the Offensive coordinators fault, he is going to break out very soon because he is learning the playbook.
Literally every excuse Browns fans had for him not being very good (sans injury) they are using. I'ts like Deja Vu in Blue and white.
That's funny...LOL
When I tried to (very objectively) explain why he just isn't very good, I was told I had no idea what I was talking about, how I didn't know anything about football.
I literally had one guy tell me Richardson was the next Earl Cambell. LOL
Which Colts MB were you looking at? I've looked at this one and am wondering if it's the same one...
Colts Forum
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*In Baker we trust*
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I like this one from the link that you provided. Quote:
esmort
Posted Yesterday, 08:28 PM
I regretted it about as soon as I heard what we gave up for him. He is not an elite RB and not worth a 1st round draft pick, regardless of where Cleveland drafted him. People come up with new excuses for why he is not performing everyday ... he doesn't know the playbook, they are stacking the box when he is in, we aren't using him properly, wrong formation, etc .. etc ...
The truth is he is an average RB who we can only hope he gets a little better, because right now he is not as good as Ballard and not even in the same league as Bradshaw. Many are in denial ...no one wants to admit we made a dumb trade and Cleveland fleeced us.
Not all of them are ridiculously brain dead over there in regards to Richardson.
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I was reading that thread and some of those guy are unbelievable. One poster even said the reason Brown(backup RB) was having success was because Trent was delivering the "body blows" and softening up the defense.
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I think the problem with Trent is that he runs too hard. Every time I've seen him in he's running right into the back of a pulling guard or something.
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It's almost as if he looks for contact, rather than trying to make a big play.
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I think there are two major flaws in Trent's game:
1. Lack of Vision
2. Lack of Explosiveness/Burst
The first one MAY improve slightly over time ... the second one will do nothing but get worse over time.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I was reading that thread and some of those guy are unbelievable. One poster even said the reason Brown(backup RB) was having success was because Trent was delivering the "body blows" and softening up the defense.
Wow. No one here thought of that one.
Campbell and Hoyer looked better because Weeden made the defense rush for a full 8 seconds because he held the ball and they got too tired.
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T-Rich had 8 carries for 20 yards against the Texans. That's 2.5 yards/carry for those playing along at home.
Donald Brown had 6 carries for 49 yards.
Watching the 2 players, there is no comparison. Brown has nice explosiveness and burst. he is sudden when he takes the handoff. Richardson looks slow and indecisive. He should have the offense down by now, but he just lacks any explosiveness at all. He had one run that looked as good as Donald Brown, and that was a run for 7 yards.
The weird thing is that Richardson had a couple of catches where he exploded nicely out of the catch.
I don't know what happened to him, but he's not the guy we drafted, and I bet that if you got an honest answer from the Colts, he's not the player they thought they traded for.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Multiple articles in Indy are discussing him and "not being what they expected or thought" and as you stated:
TRich: 2.5 ypc avg
DBrown:8.1 ypc avg
All you said about the burst and etc is exactly how I see it watching these Indy games. Not just the one against Texans.
Call me silly, but I think Indy would have avoided that trade like syphilis if given the opportunity to do a little "go back in time" action... Trent is strong and still carries people, but like we saw when Hardesty - sometimes, well most of the time - speed yields the largest gains. Unfortunately freaks like Adrian Peterson who have speed, muscle and ability to dance aren't on our team!
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Well, even with us enjoying a Bye Week, TRich was only able to out rush Fozzie by two yards 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And he only had five more carries. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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The trade feels like the old "stop loss order" when buying a stock. We got a hot tip. We got a stock (and overpaid), but our stop loss kicked in and we were able to salvage some decent value. Not worrying about the loss we took on the original purchase. I'm just glad we didn't ride it to the bottom.
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I've never been one to look at other team's message boards, but I've peeked at the Colts a few times since the trade, and I almost feel bad for those guys.
They went from predicting that yesterday would be Trent's 'breakout' game to consoling themselves with the idea that he's a power/goal line back who shouldn't be expected to earn more than 3.5 a carry.
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I just got done perusing that same thread and it was sadly reminiscent of conversations we've all had on here at one time or another.
While I empathize, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We've paid our dues for more than a decade while they got to enjoy having teams led by Peyton Manning.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I've never been one to look at other team's message boards, but I've peeked at the Colts a few times since the trade, and I almost feel bad for those guys.
They went from predicting that yesterday would be Trent's 'breakout' game to consoling themselves with the idea that he's a power/goal line back who shouldn't be expected to earn more than 3.5 a carry.
He is a guy who will get you a yard when you need 1, and 2 when you need 7. He is nothing more than a workhorse back, and they are not 1st round picks. Especially twice.
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I just got done perusing that same thread and it was sadly reminiscent of conversations we've all had on here at one time or another.
While I empathize, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We've paid our dues for more than a decade while they got to enjoy having teams led by Peyton Manning.
I gotta say this, and I know I'm not the first, but damn, it actually appears that this FO and Coaching staff know what the hell they are doing.
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I just got done perusing that same thread and it was sadly reminiscent of conversations we've all had on here at one time or another.
While I empathize, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We've paid our dues for more than a decade while they got to enjoy having teams led by Peyton Manning.
I gotta say this, and I know I'm not the first, but damn, it actually appears that this FO and Coaching staff know what the hell they are doing.
I would say that I'm slowly starting to come around on them, but so far I've hated EVERY new FO and coach that we've ever gotten and then slowly come around on most all of them... and then they end up sucking and we start over. So, I think I might just continue to hate on these guys a while longer and maybe good things will continue to happen 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's has been an freakin' up and down roller coaster hasn't it.
#gmstrong
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lol, I still remember being told I was a 'hater' and was even told I wasn't a 'real Browns fan' because I blasted Richardson all year long last year.
I was told to "Watch the All 22 and learn football" and that "He's hurt, he's still one of the best in the league!"
I'm not much of a "I told you so guy" but I gotta admit, this one makes me a little happy.
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Quote:
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I just got done perusing that same thread and it was sadly reminiscent of conversations we've all had on here at one time or another.
While I empathize, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We've paid our dues for more than a decade while they got to enjoy having teams led by Peyton Manning.
I gotta say this, and I know I'm not the first, but damn, it actually appears that this FO and Coaching staff know what the hell they are doing.
I would say that I'm slowly starting to come around on them, but so far I've hated EVERY new FO and coach that we've ever gotten and then slowly come around on most all of them... and then they end up sucking and we start over. So, I think I might just continue to hate on these guys a while longer and maybe good things will continue to happen
LOL,, the funny thing is, I started out like that also.. Then I went completely sour on the FO (liked the coaching hires), But Banner and Lombardi,, no way, I thought that was a bust waiting to happen.
then we have Weeden go down, they say, let's start Hoyer and I say WHAT? What happened to Campbell? But it works out well. Then it's the TRich trade and I think, tank city and it worked out well and then Hoyer gets hurt and up comes Weeden and we win the game and I think that Weeden sitting may have helped him, until the next week and boom,, he's a bust.
What I'm most happy about is the staff looked at Weeden, saw what we all saw and made a change because it was the right thing to do and so far, it's working out.
So to me, I've questioned almost everything they've done but in the end, most everything they did and one thing they didn't do (trade Gordon) has paid off.
It's hard to fault them for much...
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It is hard to fault them for most of what they've done. The 2014 draft is still going to be their defining moment in whether this team takes a giant leap forward or is still a team with some talent that can't get over the hump.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 880 |
Although I cringed at the thought of Lombardi being in the FO. I have been happy with what they have accomplished thus far. And give major kudos to Chud for what he has accomplished thus far. In fact, I am so pleased with the FO thus far, I will change my signature. 
And the next head coach is ......
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,719
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,719 |
Not sure if this SN article has been posted. Didn't see it, hence........... http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/20...recommended_3_5Andrew Luck and the Indianapolis Colts got shellshocked in Sunday’s stunning 38-8 home loss to St. Louis. While Luck had his worst game of the season (353 yards, TD, 3 INTs, 3 sacks, lost fumble) against the Rams’ defense, it was another reminder that they are getting no happy returns from the trade for Trent Richardson. The running back whom the team acquired in September to strengthen its identity as a physical, power rushing offense to take pressure off Luck hasn’t really done that. Richardson got only 5 carries for 2 yards as the Colts played catchup for most of the game, piling on to the fact he’s been a huge bust in Indianapolis. Since he’s been a Colt, Richardson now has 88 carries for 250 yards over seven games—a paltry 35 yards per game at 2.8 yards per carry. Week 10 against a sputtering Rams run defense entering the week ranked 28th in run defense seemed like the best opportunity to get him going. His struggles against the Rams started right away. He was stuffed on the first drive, putting Luck in an unfavorable third down situation. It led to a sack and fumble return for a touchdown by the Rams. Two more stuffs on the second possession, and that was pretty much Richardson’s day. The Colts sent a first-round pick to the Browns to get Richardson. He looked like the perfect complement to big-armed Luck. Instead, with his limited production, Luck is back in the situation of having to chuck it (47 pass attempts) while teams such as the Rams tee off on him, knowing Indianapolis remains a one-dimensional team. He is on pace to be sacked 39 times and going into Sunday's game, he'd taken a whopping 63 hits—ahead of only Cleveland and Buffalo, who've played multiple quarterbacks all year. If the Colts have buyer's remorse, it wouldn't be surprising. Losing Vick Ballard and Ahmad Bradshaw for the season, they needed Richardson to deliver. Yet, their most productive back remains Donald Brown. The biggest concern with Richardson was not anything regarding talent, but more his durability. He was able to play Sunday, but did so after battling an ankle injury all week. Going into Sunday, a case could have been made the Colts were a strong AFC title contender, and given their wins over Denver, Seattle and San Francisco, they have built enough equity to keep thinking that way, despite the debacle vs. St. Louis. But the Colts won’t be winning anything beyond a weak AFC South if they can’t get better contributions from Richardson running and receiving.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
Well, even with us enjoying a Bye Week, TRich was only able to out rush Fozzie by two yards
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The belated TRich trade thread
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