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j/c
keep hearing how Holmgren draft this qb and that qb. my question is who did heckert want from year to year?
We may never know, but I would say that there is a nearly zero percent chance that we took any QB without Holmgren's input (and probably forceful input).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Heckert loved Weeden, and talked him up from the word go.
I would bet money that he had a major part in drafting Weeden ..... maybe not at 22, but I bet that he would have taken him with out 2nd round pick. (If Holmgren told him to take the QB at 22 .... which is still all conjecture)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Heckert loved Weeden, and talked him up from the word go.
He did? Pre-Draft??
I wouldn't go by what they say post-Draft... every player we take is who we meant to get, and we were watching them the whole way, yada, yada, yada....
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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j/c
keep hearing how Holmgren draft this qb and that qb. my question is who did heckert want from year to year?
We may never know, but I would say that there is a nearly zero percent chance that we took any QB without Holmgren's input (and probably forceful input).
think? idk. I think Holmgren was just getting on the bandwagon if the picks worked out. he has a record of that. look at the farve deal way back when. and then heckert hired shumer with Holmgren ok but Holmgren never even met him?
naw Holmgren hired his guy at the business side and his guy at football side and quit. he came in for his hour brief before lunch and his hour of sign paper work after lunch. jmo
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Pre draft. He talked up Weeden a great deal before the draft. From March 2012: Draft Impact: Cleveland GM Tom Heckert Praises Oklahoma State QB Brandon Weeden | Bleacher Report http://bleacherreport.com/articles/10966...-brandon-weedenFellow Bleacher Report draftnik Jeff Roemer and I had a good debate on Twitter today about what to make of Cleveland GM Tom Heckert's effusive praise of QB prospect Brandon Weeden on Thursday. Quarterbacks are on everyone's minds right now, and Heckert really perked up when Weeden was mentioned (via Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland Plain Dealer): He said the Browns like four quarterbacks in this draft, including the obvious top three of Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III and Ryan Tannehill. The fourth appears to be Oklahoma State's Brandon Weeden, who's 28, because Heckert gushed about him. "I really like him a lot,'' said Heckert. "We're going to see him (throw) tomorrow. He's mature and he's telling you it's a positive. He's a really interesting guy. He's super smart.'' Roemer very correctly pointed out that most of what we hear at this time of year is misinformation and smoke screens, so he advised to "keep calm" about his statements. Still, this one stuck with me for a few reasons. 1. Cleveland loves to have a lot of picks. This is a team that has exercised 10 first and second-round picks in the last three years, including two trade downs in the first to amass more picks. As the possibility of trading up for Robert Griffin III diminishes, we have to give more weight to alternate scenarios where the Browns address their QB situation. Weeden certainly fits. 2. No one can really stop Cleveland from taking Weeden. The Browns have the 22nd and 37th picks in the draft, so a team would have to be very smitten with Weeden to leapfrog them in the first round, and they're also picking ahead of all of the QB-needy teams again in the second round. Weeden being 28 years old defies conventional wisdom about first-round value, so Heckert might feel free to discuss their feelings about Weeden with impunity. 3. There is a recent precedent for a team tipping their hand about QB draft plans. Last year, Cincinnati offensive coordinator Jay Gruden did not hold back his praise of Andy Dalton after TCU's pro day: "You want winners, and that's what he's done his whole career," Gruden said. "There's a lot more to that than people understand. Teammates have to follow you, and believe in you, when times are tough. In key situations, you have to deliver. He's done it time and time again. How can you not be interested in a guy who performs like that?" 4. Heckert was part of the team that selected Kevin Kolb in the early second for Philadelphia back in 2007. Weeden is a system QB who is smart, but how his skills outside of his college offense will translate is unknown. Brandon Weeden or Kevin Kolb? Mike Holmgren and Pat Shurmur are West Coast-offense minds, and Weeden's skills do fit well in that offense. Perhaps we shouldn't dispose of these comments so readily.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Heckert loved Weeden, and talked him up from the word go.
I would bet money that he had a major part in drafting Weeden ..... maybe not at 22, but I bet that he would have taken him with out 2nd round pick. (If Holmgren told him to take the QB at 22 .... which is still all conjecture)
Not so sure about that......
"Heckert and Shurmur were not that hot on Weeden. That one is totally on Holmgren all the way. In fact, I’ve been told by more than one source that when the Browns’ turn came up at No. 22, Holmgren popped into the draft room and ordered the selection of Weeden. The draft room was stunned. Heckert felt Weeden would be available in the second round."
The above is from a Tony Grossi report. However, Heckert reportedly really wanted Richardson.
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=18&post_id=22591
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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"I really like him a lot,'' said Heckert. "We're going to see him (throw) tomorrow. He's mature and he's telling you it's a positive. He's a really interesting guy. He's super smart.''
I've also heard a few times that Holmgren made the call at 22, and Heckert thought Weeden would be there at 37...
... but the above quote is all you need to know about Heckert's talent evaluation.
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Holmgren ... Heckert ... Weeden
Ancient history. Do we really need to revisit the past?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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"I really like him a lot,'' said Heckert. "We're going to see him (throw) tomorrow. He's mature and he's telling you it's a positive. He's a really interesting guy. He's super smart.''
I've also heard a few times that Holmgren made the call at 22, and Heckert thought Weeden would be there at 37...
... but the above quote is all you need to know about Heckert's talent evaluation.
Seriously?
It's what ANY GM would say publicly about a player they are bringing in to work out pre-draft. What would you think a FO exec would say--- "I think he sucks and have no idea why he is coming in to Berea. Poor waste of money and we could use this time wisely on someone else.
Everyone says positive things about players being drafted...it's all part of the dance and smoke screens.
One comment from the article that was left out...."Roemer very correctly pointed out that most of what we hear at this time of year is misinformation and smoke screens"
So let me get this straight....someone says to the Mary Kay Cabot "I really like this guy a lot" and "he's mature" prior to the kid arriving to Berea and we make the assumption that he was in love with Weeden's talent? Sorry, I'll take Grossi's multiple sources on what happened in the draft room over MKC. But in the end, I guess we'll never really know.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Half-serious, yeah.
I understand that you have to talk a guy up, even if you're not a huge fan, but nothing says you have to call them 'really smart'.
I don't know how anyone talks to Brandon Weeden and comes away thinking he's bright on any level.
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"I really like him a lot,'' said Heckert. "We're going to see him (throw) tomorrow. He's mature and he's telling you it's a positive. He's a really interesting guy. He's super smart.''
Super smart? 
LOL man..........sorry, but what an idiotic statement. Super smart. 
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Brandon Weeden or Kevin Kolb? Mike Holmgren and Pat Shurmur are West Coast-offense minds, and Weeden's skills do fit well in that offense.
Yet another brilliant statement by a reporter who really knows football. 
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The point is that Heckert absolutely gushed over Weeden many times. If Holmgren "pushed" him into taking Weeden, it was a pretty easy shove.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The point is that Heckert absolutely gushed over Weeden many times. If Holmgren "pushed" him into taking Weeden, it was a pretty easy shove.
Then they both earned their terminations.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And that about ends the discussion on Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur. And Weeden too.
#gmstrong
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And that about ends the discussion on Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur. And Weeden too.
I wish it were that simple. All I really have to say is, good luck with that!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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... good luck with that!
Oh, wouldn't that be nice! 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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... good luck with that!
Oh, wouldn't that be nice!
I think you'll always have those, that any time you ever question this FO, will try to point to some irrelevant love of the previous FO. Some kind of sick and twisted defense mechanism.
Sad but true.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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First, you say this: Quote:
Quote:
And that about ends the discussion on Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur. And Weeden too.
I wish it were that simple. All I really have to say is, good luck with that!
And you quickly follow it up w/this:
Quote:
I think you'll always have those, that any time you ever question this FO, will try to point to some irrelevant love of the previous FO. Some kind of sick and twisted defense mechanism.
No hypocrisy there.
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Half-serious, yeah.
I understand that you have to talk a guy up, even if you're not a huge fan, but nothing says you have to call them 'really smart'.
I don't know how anyone talks to Brandon Weeden and comes away thinking he's bright on any level.
Really? Have you ever spoken to Weeden? Had an extensive conversation? Know anything about him?
It's obvious he is football dumb. Plenty of evidence there.
Doesn't mean he's dumb in general.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Ever since he did that segment with Gruden before the draft, I worried that he didn't have much going on upstairs.
I've never read or seen an interview since that didn't contradict that worry.
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Ever since he did that segment with Gruden before the draft, I worried that he didn't have much going on upstairs.
I've never read or seen an interview since that didn't contradict that worry.
I'll agree with that.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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First, you say this:
Quote:
Quote:
And that about ends the discussion on Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur. And Weeden too.
I wish it were that simple. All I really have to say is, good luck with that!
And you quickly follow it up w/this:
Quote:
I think you'll always have those, that any time you ever question this FO, will try to point to some irrelevant love of the previous FO. Some kind of sick and twisted defense mechanism.
No hypocrisy there.
Oh the irony of it all.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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odd, I heard that Indy has a very good Oline... now with TR there it is suspect.
His cherry picking a few plays smacks of apologist to me.
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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I agree, he sounds like a Colts fan.
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Bradshaw - 41 carries, 4.5 ypc
Brown - 33 carries, 5.9 ypc
Ballard - 13 carries, 4.8 ypc
Richardson - 75 carries, 3.0 ypc
One of these things is not like the others.
yebat' Putin
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As a side note to that article (which I too agree is by a colts fan), it is nice to read in the comments section that for once other teams fans feel as if they got fleeced by our front office 
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As a side note to that article (which I too agree is by a colts fan), it is nice to read in the comments section that for once other teams fans feel as if they got fleeced by our front office
better to be the fleecer than the fleecee ( can I say that?  ) A nice change of events.
#gmstrong
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A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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Just over a month ago, the sky was supposedly falling in Cleveland.
That's because the Browns had traded running back Trent Richardson, the third overall selection in the 2012 NFL draft, to the Indianapolis Colts in a move that many deemed sheer lunacy. The belief at the time was that Cleveland was giving up its best offensive weapon, a player who should be the bedrock of the franchise.
Now the only criticisms that can be heard are coming from Indianapolis, where Richardson remains the disappointing talent the Browns had the good sense to deal.
It's not that Richardson is a bad player. It's just that he's not an exceptional one.
He has yet to gain more than 60 yards in any of his five games with the Colts. He's had 75 carries during that time and produced all of 228 yards, which is a worse yards-per-attempt average than he generated in his first two games with Cleveland this season (3.04 compared to 3.39). Richardson scored the first two touchdowns of his season while in Indianapolis, but more people likely recall his critical fumble late in the Colts' upset win over Denver on Oct. 20.
As much as optimists in Indianapolis preach the importance of patience when faced with these facts, it's becoming hard to see the upside in a player who was supposed to be special and cost the Colts a first-round pick.
"We were getting killed when we made that deal, but now people are seeing the same things we saw in him," one Browns source said. "There is a lot to like about Trent. He's solid, dependable, hard-working. The problem is that he's not explosive."
That final indictment is the biggest reason Colts fans should be concerned about their new franchise running back moving forward. Richardson has logged 373 carries in his two-year career. Only 20 of those rushing attempts have ended in a run longer than 10 yards, which ranks him 32nd among all running backs since the start of the 2012 season. Richardson also has failed to be the perfect counterpart to quarterback Andrew Luck on a team that was hoping to balance its offense with a dominant power-running component.
Trent Richardson has failed to impress in five games with the Colts, averaging a paltry 3.04 yards per carry, with just two touchdowns.
The Colts had the idealistic notion that Luck -- who threw 627 passes last season as a rookie -- would make life easier for Richardson. All of those Browns fans who balked at the trade believed that Richardson wasn't becoming a star in Cleveland because the team had nothing else around him. They didn't see a running back who rushed for 950 yards last season because that was the best he could do. They viewed Richardson as a promising talent who had the misfortune of facing eight- and nine-man fronts every time he lined up for the Browns.
Well, Richardson isn't seeing too many stacked boxes in Indianapolis these days. He's also not the only player in this league who has to deal with defenses designed to stop him. Minnesota's Adrian Peterson has seen that throughout his seven-year career, and he ran for 2,097 yards in 2012, less than a year after he underwent reconstructive surgery for a torn ACL. Jacksonville's Maurice Jones-Drew hasn't had much of a supporting cast around him, either. He wound up leading the league in rushing in 2011 with a career-high 1,606 yards.
The issue with Richardson is that he's mostly effective in situations where his team needs tough yards. As the Browns source said: "I saw him score on a 1-yard touchdown in his first game there (a 27-7 win over San Francisco) and the announcer said that was why the Colts traded for him. And all I could think was that play was right in Trent's wheelhouse. He'll make those plays for you all day. But when you need seven yards, he'll still get you three."
There already have been several theories offered as to why Richardson has continued to struggle on a better team. Some have suggested that he's trying too hard to make something happen. Others suspect he's overthinking things or simply struggling to fit in with a new offensive line. Those people still think of Richardson as the same talent he was touted to be after leaving Alabama. They don't want to believe they possibly could be wrong.
In reality, it's hard to think Alabama didn't make Richardson look better than he really was. He played with three offensive linemen in college who were selected in this year's draft – including first-round picks D.J. Fluker and Chance Warmack – and it's not like he's the first Crimson Tide runner to disappoint in the NFL. Richardson split time with Heisman Trophy winner Mark Ingram at Alabama. That would be the same Mark Ingram who has 1,107 career rushing yards since the New Orleans Saints selected him with the 28th overall pick in the 2011 draft.
The only defense Ingram has at this stage of his career is opportunity. The Saints have enough talent in their backfield -- with Pierre Thomas and Darren Sproles in the mix -- one could argue that a crowded depth chart has factored into Ingram's lack of production. On the other hand, another former Alabama runner, Green Bay rookie Eddie Lacy, has gained 446 yards this season and launched himself into the early conversation for offensive rookie of the year honors. He's already proven what some scouts thought about him when he entered the draft -- that he could be better than both Ingram and Richardson in the long run.
The big question the Colts now face is whether Richardson can elevate his game in the second half of this season. Indianapolis already lost one huge offensive weapon when Pro Bowl wide receiver Reggie Wayne tore his ACL against Denver, so it's fair to assume the Colts will need more from their running game. If Richardson really does have star potential, this is the time to start showing it. But if what we've seen so far is any indication, nobody in Indianapolis should be raising their hopes too high.
Link
It is still early but I thoroughly enjoy reading articles like this. If we had kept Richardson and he was a bust it would have been a disaster. At least now we have the chance to improve with the 1st round pick we received.
If Richardson is as bad as he has been so far for the rest of his career our, front office made a brilliant move regardless of who they draft with the pick.
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I just love that we have options.
If you feel that a guy like Bridgewater or Mariota is worth it. We can package and move up.
If not. We can use Indys late first our our early second to grab a guy so can presumably sit and learn behind Hoyer.
Would it be nice to swap Rich/Weeden for acceptable young guys like Tannehill/Martin? Sure. But those mistakes will soon both be gone (If basically not gone already, IMO I'd ct. Weeden now and sign someone else incase Cambell goes down)
Options. We have them. And we don't have to worry about changing at schemes any time soon.
It's a good day.
Now let's beat Baltimore and make it even better.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Hey, I admit, I was one of those that at first glance, thought the TRich trade was a HUGE mistake..
Then reality set in.. We got the better end of that deal..
Or so it appears thus far
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I still don't see Tannehill as some great young QB. He's nowhere near the level of the "Big 3" from last year. He's decent, he's mostly solid, but all too often, he lacks the big play when his team needs one. He did a nice job driving his team late against the Bengals, but his team isn't in that position if not for their defense scoring. He's been ..... OK ....... but not yet a guy who makes you say "Man, he was definitely worth a high 1st round pick". (No matter what we got with our picks) He's kind of like an Alex Smith type. He wins when his team helps him to wins, as opposed to being a guy who leads his team to victory.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
Assuming we had Hoyer since day one as the starter and he didn't get hurt...at least 4-4, probably 5-3.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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All Pro
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I like the read. Thanks for resurrecting this thread, cfrs15.
And the next head coach is ......
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What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
5-3, maybe 6-2
QB play flat out lost the Miami and Baltimore games. Even serviceable QB play wins those games. Then the 3 we won.
Detroit is debatable.
We still lose to KC and Green Bay.
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It is hard to judge Tannehill as he has had the worst pass protection in the league. He has been sacked 38 times so far this season and is pressured on the majority of his dropbacks.
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Quote:
What would our record be right now if we had "decent" QB play all season?
5-3, maybe 6-2
QB play flat out lost the Miami and Baltimore games. Even serviceable QB play wins those games. Then the 3 we won.
Detroit is debatable.
We still lose to KC and Green Bay.
I will probably get another earful for that, but Weeden WAS actually serviceable in the BAL game. He was NOT the reason we lost that game. He didn't do much to win it either, sure, but he was servicable and it wasn't enough for a win, just as Campbell was servicable in KC and it wasn't enough. He got a positive grade from PFF (better than Campbel at KC btw). The DET game gets lost no matter who at QB, no "AVG" performance could have saved that, only Peyton M maybe. Count the QB wins when your D allows 31p and 24 of them in the 2nd half, you won't need two hands for an entire season to do it, so that would have been lost too.
MIA game maybe, would have made it closer, but I still think we'd lose that as we lost it in the trenches in the 4th Qtr unable to pressure Tannehill, while the MIA rush got through. Maybe AVG play would have given us a lead? Ok, let's say we win this one. GB we lose too with AVG QB play, they played an all around good game and beat us soundly everywhere.
By my count that's 4-4 and I'm not 100% convinced we would have won the opener with a carbon copy of Campbell's game vs KC (especially without Gordon). Now, GOOD QB play, that's another story, but AVG would not have changed much (and hasn't as we've seen last sunday). Our biggest problem this season are inconsistency on D (allowing chunks of points in a short amount of time, horrible on 3rd downs) and our inexistent running game, which has been even worse than our passing game, and that's saying something. At least we had a couple of above AVG games at QB, but RB? Which one? We suck there since the season started, I think some just take it as a given and don't understand what it does to the rest of your Offense (and team). Here's a hint: it makes them more predictable and puts them in bad spots. We've lead so many games at half, but could not eat ANY clock to help out the QB and D, because we have running backs that would not be even active for pretty much all other NFL teams right now.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
About that Richardson trade. . .
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The belated TRich trade thread
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