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Indy called Cleveland, at least that's how it was reported.
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Indy called Cleveland, at least that's how it was reported.
Wow, I wonder what that conversation was like...
Them - "Hey, this is the Colts. We were wondering if you'd be interested in trading us T-Rich for a firs..."
Us - "Deal. Send the papers over."
Them - "Do you want to know what year the first is for?"
Us - "Nah, we're good, whateva. Trent is already on the plane."
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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anarchy...before checking the back n forth discussion. I could have sworn that was from a Browns board. Going one better - I was like OH SHOOT those were almost word for word excuses I was giving for Trent last season...lol Well some of them at least. 
I am so so happy cause I cannot remember trading a player from the clean up of another Regime getting a FIRST ROUNDER...and more n more looking so so lopsided 
Now, if they can only work some sort of magic and get something out of a team for Weeden's services.
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I think that Trent has a ton of physical talent, but is lacking when it comes to understanding what is happening around him.
Now wait, are you talking about TRich or Weeden?
Man, what a powerful one-two punch of failed 1st round picks!
Holmgren, Heckert, & Co. stole what they got, what they still get, and what they will get for years from Randy Lerner.
There, fixed it for you.
Sadly, that may not be true. They may be getting it from Jimmy Haslam (or his family).
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Indy called Cleveland, at least that's how it was reported.
Wow, I wonder what that conversation was like...
Them - "Hey, this is the Colts. We were wondering if you'd be interested in trading us T-Rich for a firs..."
Us - "Deal. Send the papers over."
Them - "Do you want to know what year the first is for?"
Us - "Nah, we're good, whateva. Trent is already on the plane."
You left off the other part of the Browns response:
Browns: "Do you want us to throw in Brandon Weeden for free?"
Indy: "Nah, we're good there. Thanks.
Borwns: "No problem, and no - thank you!
After the call, Joe Banner to Michael Lombardi & Rob Chudzinski says laughing, "Do you believe we got a first rounder for that garbage?! And THEY called US!" More laughing.
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I don't think Richardson is garbage. He was actually an excellent receiver out of the backfield. He was a guy who, while not particularly fast, was a much better open-field runner than he was between the tackles guy.
His abilities, in retrospect, clearly didn't warrant the top-3 selection that was spent on him, but he does have some "plus" abilities.
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Interesting observation, 'Toad. A POV that speaks 'big picture' and with some allowance for the nuances of the game.
No doubt it will be assailed by some of the "black & whiters" here, but I can't really argue with the direction of your post.
Clem, I think you are great. I think you are very level-headed. However, your use of "black & whiters" sounds awfully black and white to me.
I believe there are reasonable arguments that refute Toad's position. They aren't just made because a person views everything as black and white. There is logic, reason, and sound evaluation involved.
For example:
I think TRich's broken ribs did not effect his cutting ability and explosiveness. I also think that his yards per carry were an indicator of his ability, because other backs at both places have put up better numbers. Furthermore, I believe that when you look at the games and especially the tape, you will see that Richardson's instincts and vision are poor. He consistently misses the hole. He doesn't see it. Doesn't hit it. Those things are the real reasons for his poor yards per carry.
Yes, both OLs can be better, but TRich has his own issues. He is a tough guy. He is strong. He is fast enough. He can catch. However, he does not see and/or hit the holes like he should. He leaves a ton of yards on the field.
No way should we have drafted him fourth, nevermind moving up a spot and trading away multiple picks for him. No way should Indy have given a first for him. The guy has been very overrated and people have made a plethora of excuses for his inabilities on the field.
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I don't think Richardson is garbage. He was actually an excellent receiver out of the backfield. He was a guy who, while not particularly fast, was a much better open-field runner than he was between the tackles guy.
His abilities, in retrospect, clearly didn't warrant the top-3 selection that was spent on him, but he does have some "plus" abilities.
The new Browns front office wasn't going to wait for him to show it after 2 games and the Colts are still waiting to see it.
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How did you have T Rich rated going into the draft? Your assessment is the same as mine. I always think back to the Bengals game with him. He's a very good receiving back, very elusive, can run over corners and make them miss. But as a running back he misses holes and tries to run over D-Linemen and linebackers and simply can't do it. He lacks the speed to effectively use his elusiveness as a running back. If he was faster you could use him effectively as a scatback. But he simply lacks the speed for running outside the tackles, and lacks the vision and decision making for running inside the tackles. He'd make a fantastic receiving fullback the way we use Oggy. Unfortunately for T-Rich you don't draft fullbacks in the top 3. Heck you barely ever draft a RB in the 1st round now adays. Outside of maybe AP and Charles I'm not sure I'd take any RBs in the league in the 1st round. The risk is too high and the reward is too low over what a dude even in the 7th round could give you. I'll take the value of a 5th round scatback like Dion Lewis every year over ever taking another guy in the top 3 rounds. Edit: If given the choice I probably would have traded TRich for Bryce Brown straight up. But I'd prefer to get a 1st 
Last edited by Kingcob; 11/12/13 08:48 PM.
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This pretty much sums up my entire feelings on T-Rich 
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Lol, Matt Roth 
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Okay... now that makes the picture even more funny.
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I don't even understand the intended joke. If the Roth picture fit the point, I could understand. But... 
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However, your use of "black & whiters" sounds awfully black and white to me.
Hehehe.... yeah, I've been known to take 'verbal shortcuts' from time to time... 
I hope you didn't think I was specifically talking about you with my statement. Truth be told, I wasn't singling out anyone. I've just read enough posts to know that sometimes, a nuanced post like the one I responded to isn't always received in the way I perceive it. Then folks get called 'fence-sitters' and the like. It was more a general comment about a TYPE of poster... but certainly not anyone in particular.
And speaking of posts, let me say this, as well: I can't really argue with any of the observations you made about TRich, either. Fact is, I see many of the same traits that you described.
From what I read by the both of you, your posts don't seem to be in contradiction at all- at least to me.
Bottom line: what you observe about Trent rings true to me, too. What 'Toad projects for Trent's future seems plausible, as well. There is room for both takes in my book, as they both seem legitimate and well-considered.
Hope I've cleared up my position on this li'l dealie... sometimes, I just don't want to bang out one of my long-winded novels- and THOSE are the times when I get mis-read by other posters. Bummer, too- because then I have to do extra typing in a follow-up post!
Same amount of work, either way.
Maybe someday, I'll strike that balance of content AND brevity.... 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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How did you have T Rich rated going into the draft?
I bought into it... with everyone saying he was the next AD. If I remember correctly, my list was:
1) Luck
2) RGIII
3) Blackmon
4) Richardson
5) Floyd
6) Claiborne (I might have these two swapped 5/6)
7) Kendall Wright
8) Cordy Glenn
9) Kirkpatrick?
10) Can't remember... maybe Kalil?
11) Doug Martin I think
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Hehehe.... yeah, I've been known to take 'verbal shortcuts' from time to time...
pssttt 500 words is not a shortcut buddy
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I don't even understand the intended joke.
If the Roth picture fit the point, I could understand.
But...
Picture was created when Browns was 3-0 after trading Richardson...
Also references the Gotye song "Somebody I used to know"
http://www.youtube.com/v/8UVNT4wvIGY
Roth's picture makes it look like he's yelling and pointing at Richardson.
Currently that picture still sums up my opinion on T-Rich. This team didn't need him. And he's just someone who we used to know.
Last edited by The Collector; 11/13/13 12:55 AM.
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Hehehe.... yeah, I've been known to take 'verbal shortcuts' from time to time...
pssttt 500 words is not a shortcut buddy
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Outside of Luck and RG3 it is shaping up to have been a pretty bad 1st round.
I honestly have some trouble blaming the guys for drafting T Rich. No one is really studding out behind the two QBs. (Blackmon kind of Úous the drug thing). And Poe was such a major gamble. Claiborne can't read a defense or a book, and Kalil would have been a huge investment for a right tackle.
Who would you take if you could go back and do it again?
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Russell Wilson, of course. But if we're revisiting, you have to think those three guys are gone and Minnesota doesn't trade down.
This is complicated... Are we still drafting in a 4-3 with a WCO? Or our current team configuration? Do we know about Gordon? Time travel is hard.
Gotta think its one of Glenn, David, Wagner, or Keuchly. Maybe Harrison Smith. Linebackers, a safety, and a right tackle at 4 overall. I'm sure there's an obvious answer or two I'm just not thinking of.
Last edited by clevesteve; 11/13/13 01:52 AM.
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I think Clairborne's problem is with playing zone when he's a man corner. I wouldn't mind getting him here for a 4th tbh.
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Now, if they can only work some sort of magic and get something out of a team for Weeden's services.
Why I wished for Weeden to succeed after Hoyer went down. We all know that QB is intensely coveted by NFL teams who HAVE NOT - THE GUY. If Weeden Improved won a game here n there. Cut down on the Sacks n INTs. I think pre-draft next year with the premise at the time that Hoyer would be the starter and us wanting to draft a prospect to develop. Who knows what we could have gotten for him. Look what Seattle invested in Flynn, Texans Schaub 2 2nd rounders. Seattle with Whitehurst...2nd rounder. KC for Pats back up Cassel.
Weeden burnt that dream as we benched him. Now it might turn out great as we still will draft a Prospect somewhere and look to develop him. But we have Hoyer n Campbell (who knows how Campbell will end up) who the media is ready to make him a Legend - would we trade Campbell for a first rounder??? Start Hoyer n develop the kid? Keeping Weeden as the #2/3...All I know is that if the Colts tried to trade Trent now...possibly they would get a 6th 7th rounder...but all would probably wait for him to be cut. The best part of the deal for us. THE NEW CBA...an overall #3 pick in the previous CBA would have had an astronomical contract...not that he got pennies in 2012 either...but top 10 contracts aren't killers anymore. Without this we would not have been able to of traded Trent.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Now, if they can only work some sort of magic and get something out of a team for Weeden's services.
If we get anything, virtually anything, out of a trade for/with Weeden - I will call Lombardi and Banner Gods. I mean it 100% too.
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I think you would have to send out a pick with Weeden to dump the ~$2million guaranteed still remaining on his contract. I don't think I've ever seen that in the NFL but it's common in the NBA.
Thanks Holmgren.
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Who would you take if you could go back and do it again?
Guys will back me up on this, but I know I was screaming before the draft the smart move was to trade down and acquire more picks. That was not a bad draft class. In fact, it was incredibly strong from the middle of the first all the way into round four.
We could have filled multiple needs. Instead, we gave up picks to move up one spot w/a team who has Peterson as their RB. We then compounded the problem by drafting Weeden at 22.
Terrible, terrible drafting.
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Agreed, although I'm always one for trading down. I will admit I was also okay with drafting Claiborne and Blackmon. Man was I wrong. One sucks on the field and the other sucks off of it.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Hey, 05:
I've been a fan of the 'trade-down' like you... but I also have to question whether it's always the best policy.
Here's what I mean: for years, we've been woefully understocked with talent, so trading back/down has almost always been a 'no-brainer' for the Browns on draft day.
However- we seem to have the makings of a legit NFL team here, and I'm wondering how much we need to keep adhering to that policy, as we continue to build the roster.
Do we ALWAYS look to trade down (keeping in mind that an extra 3rd & 4th might not generate the same on-field impact as a low 1 or high 2)?
Do we look for a combination of 'trade-down' and 'stand pat' that gives us numbers AND "individual pick impact?"
Is there ever a point at which our team can stand pat with the picks they have, and simply stock the shelves with BPA's?
_______________________
I'm asking for two reasons:
1. To find out your own personal draft strategy
2. Open up the thread to ALL Dawgs to give me insight into the draft process.
I know that NE has a history of stockpiling picks/maneuvering on draft day, and it seems to have worked very well for them over the years. I also know that other teams seem to quietly make their draft choices with a minimum of drama/headlines, and have also done better than we have.
What would you (or any of You Dawgs) do with these evolving Browns, moving forward?
This is my chance to get a deeper education in this game... my only reason for posting this entry.
(Perhaps it should have its own thread?)
Thanks to You (and all) in advance,
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Very insightful, Clem. That really makes me think beyond the basic instinct and appeals I harbor for trading down.
In '12, I thought we needed a ton of help, so trading down to me seemed worth it. Plus, I felt there were a lot of overhyped players (Richardson) who teams would pay an arm and a leg for. I thought teams would be falling over each other to get to our spot. I also thought the draft had enough quality players available later in the first round who would have had immediate impact. My two exceptions were Claiborne and Blackmon. I thought they had real boom potential and I would have been satisfied with either.
At this point, I don't think trading down is as much a priority, although we still do have quite a few holes to fill. I don't always look to trade down...only if the price is right. I do agree with the current front office's approach, though. Have a list of can't miss players at your draft spot. If they're gone, then maybe you slightly drop the price you have for your pick in the draft.
So short answer for me is to err on the side of trading down unless it's a can't miss player. I don't always look to do it though.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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...your own personal draft strategy...
A couple of observations (and I'm generalizing here; nothing is cast in stone):
- The recent moving of the FA period from after the draft, to prior to the draft, has allowed teams to better fill holes with FA's then lean more towards drafting BPA.
- Trade-downs are dependant (amongst other reasons) on the overall strength of the draft (less likely to trade down in a weak draft), and how well stocked you are at the key skill positions.
Just a couple of random thoughts...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Quote:
Quote:
Who would you take if you could go back and do it again?
Guys will back me up on this, but I know I was screaming before the draft the smart move was to trade down and acquire more picks. That was not a bad draft class. In fact, it was incredibly strong from the middle of the first all the way into round four.
We could have filled multiple needs. Instead, we gave up picks to move up one spot w/a team who has Peterson as their RB. We then compounded the problem by drafting Weeden at 22.
Terrible, terrible drafting.
We'll look back at that year and really shake our heads, although we did find Benji, Hughes, and Winn there. I think people are 50/50 on Schwartz, but I'd like to see some more games out of him.
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Agreed, although I'm always one for trading down. I will admit I was also okay with drafting Claiborne and Blackmon. Man was I wrong. One sucks on the field and the other sucks off of it.
I wanted Richardson and when I saw DeCastro on the board, I thought without a doubt we WERE taking him. I was in Hawaii at like 11am drinking at a bar, I was so upset about the Weeden pick I couldn't even eat.
Richardson was a bad pick, but passing on Decastro for Weeden....Oh lawd
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I don't believe there's a pat answer to that.
As has been mentioned, you need a list of players you feel are worthy of said pick. If they're not there, I believe you look for a trade down scenario.
And also, with the rookie salary cap, top picks aren't nearly as much of an impact on your overall salary cap as they were before.
Also I feel looking at the drop off in talent in any draft would impact your decision. That would vary in each draft to an extent.
I believe if you see a player that has elite written all over him, you take him. If not, I feel you try to get a reasonable trade down.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I haven't watched a bunch of Steelers football this year, but all of the Steelers fans I know hate the Steelers OL, including DeCastro. Of course, the fact that DeCastro basically jumped/fell into Pouncey's leg (for no reason) in the preseason, putting him out for the season, may have something to do with it.
I have read that he is playing better ..... but is he really playing well? Every time I see the Steelers, it seems like their OL is getting destroyed.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If I was picking Guard in that round, I'd have much rather taken Zeitler.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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j/c...on the 2012 draft.
Dropping back would be nice but you need two to tango - it was a strong draft...how far to drop? Tough to say for sure.
I personally was a little depressed after we lost the chance at RG3 for 6 months I was dreaming about him becoming a Brown
I know I had some discussions saying that it was better to go for Blackmon than Trent...only cause I thought Blackmon was going to become one of the great ones (still might if he gets his head together) and Trent was a RB which I thought was a bad move as an investment unless the draft class was super weak which it was not.
At the very end I did think about Tannehill, was surprise we didn't go for him. Or on a short drop back I was thinking of possibly RT, Rushing DE, CB???
I thought for sure at 22 we were going to pick Reiff...I know the board sentiment was DeCastro, Good Sell job Vers lol  - but I was thinking of RT all the way. Was pretty shocked when I heard Weeden 
Those were my intial thoughts and time of draft thoughts...I decided a long time ago not to go the route of I'M THE BETTER GM after all I've read all these reports made by guys who can't get NFL jobs...lol!
So I have over the years simply would embrace every player we did pick...after all they were now players for my beloved Browns! I also chose instead of lambasting our choice of picks try to understand the thought process/plan instead. Mostly to make sense of it and say...ok, not what I would have done but I get it...LETS GO, become studs - 
Hey its what I evolved into.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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don't forget Cordy Glenn. quite a few of us preferred Glenn (who is doing pretty well in Buffalo).
regardless, DeCastro, Reiff, Schwartz, and Glenn have all had ups and downs in their first 2 years in the NFL. all have had some promising play and some disastrous play. it'll be interesting to see how they pan out because they could all end up rather good (I'm not giving up on Mitchell yet - his pass protection seems good when not going against a true speed-burner DE).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
If I was picking Guard in that round, I'd have much rather taken Zeitler.
Either one would have been better than selecting Weeden. For that matter, we could have take Riley Reiff.
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Quote:
I haven't watched a bunch of Steelers football this year, but all of the Steelers fans I know hate the Steelers OL, including DeCastro. Of course, the fact that DeCastro basically jumped/fell into Pouncey's leg (for no reason) in the preseason, putting him out for the season, may have something to do with it.
I have read that he is playing better ..... but is he really playing well? Every time I see the Steelers, it seems like their OL is getting destroyed.
Yeah he is playing well. He is having a pro bowl caliber year, in spite of the garbage around him.
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Then it must just be that he took out Pouncey that is why all of the Steelers fans I know hate him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
Quote:
Then it must just be that he took out Pouncey that is why all of the Steelers fans I know hate him.
Doesn't surprise me, very few Steeler fans I know have any idea what they're talking about. Pouncey has regressed and isn't nearly as good at Decastro but Steeler fans will tell you how great Pouncey is.
PFF has him graded at +11.3, They have Joe Thomas graded at +15.5 for reference.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The belated TRich trade thread
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