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I pretty much agree w/what Pit had to say. Trading down is not always the best policy. That would be silly.
If there is a great player available when you pick and he is the guy you targeted all along, you pick him. Trading down is good for securing more picks and gives you leverage in future dealings.
I am a fan of trading down, but not always. For example, taking Joe Thomas was brilliant. I wasn't a big fan of Heckert, but I had no problem w/him trading w/Atl and securing more picks.
I do want to add that I really believe that the 2012 draft was particularly strong from the middle of the first all the way into the fourth round and we really could have improved the team by trading down. The 2013 draft? Blah.........one of the worst I have ever seen.
Sorry Clem, but I really don't think there is no set answer. You have to weight the depth of the draft, the players at the top, your own personal needs, and the market for the picks.
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Sorry Clem, but I really don't think there is no set answer.
Ignoring the double negative, I think that is the ONLY answer. It's completely situational, and there's a myriad of factors to be considered - and it all can change every time a pick is made ahead of you.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Dropping back would be nice but you need two to tango - it was a strong draft...how far to drop? Tough to say for sure.
Odd comment considering that you continually defended Heckert for moving up for TRich because it was a known fact that Tampa Bay wanted to move-up and draft Richardson. My comeback on that was always this: why didn't we trade w/TB and let them get TRich? They could have offered just a bit less because it was one spot lower. Dang, what a draft day blunder!
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I thought for sure at 22 we were going to pick Reiff...I know the board sentiment was DeCastro, Good Sell job Vers lol
I liked Reiff, too. He was one of the guys I mentioned as a possibility if we traded down. And I sure as heck don't feel bad for pimping DeCastro. The guy had a rough preseason as a rook and was hurt. Guys like Dj wrote him off as a bust. However, the guy is playing very, very well this year. I am still confident that he will be a Pro Bowler in his career. I am also confident that Weeden will never be a Pro Bowler.
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I also chose instead of lambasting our choice of picks try to understand the thought process/plan instead.
If only we all could be the perfect fan you are. 
The thought process? The plan? LOL........that first round was a colossal blunder. We went sexy. A RB and a QB. We should have freaking traded down. Man, it was there for us and we instead of substance, we go sexy. 
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Ignoring the double negative
That is embarrassing. I bet it's obvious that I have one of my degrees in English. 
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Thanks, guys. Eye-opening posts that are helping me get a handle on the draft. good stuff! 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Praised in most corners for their trade of Trent Richardson from Cleveland two months ago, the Indianapolis Colts have recently taken a lot of criticism for the move.
Richardson has 250 yards in seven games. His 2.8 yards-per-carry average in Indianapolis ranks with the worst running backs in football. But if the wildly uneven Colts could do it all over again, they tell NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport they would still make the same trade.
"There's a couple reasons why," Rapoport said on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access Kickoff" on Thursday. "He's young. They love the violent way that he runs. Plus, he's cheap. The Browns are picking up a ton of his tab. ... He's had several head coaches, he's had several offensive coordinators. The Colts really think that once he immerses himself in their offense, he's going to go off."
This sounds like excuse making, but some of it shows up on film. NFL Media's LaDainian Tomlinson said that Richardson doesn't trust his offensive line and doesn't look like he has a strong grasp of the offense.
NFL Media Columnist Michael Silver said that former Indianapolis Colts running back Edgerrin James has been mentoring Richardson in recent weeks.
"Listen, this kid's going through a lot," James told Silver. "His family is coming to town, he's adjusting to a new city and it's a new offense. Give him an offseason, you'll see him roll, you'll see the guy that everyone fell in love with out of Alabama."
The Colts don't have an offseason to wait. They are in position to make the playoffs this year. They can spin it any way they want, but it has to be deeply disappointing that Richardson is getting outplayed by Donald Brown. Running back is usually the easiest position for young players to pick up. That's part of the reason why the Colts felt confident in acquiring Richardson in the middle of the season.
Link
More excuses for Richardson. They sound like us all off-season.
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I hated the TRich pick too, even more so the uptrade, but this trade down talk is revisionist History, as we had like 14? Picks going into that draft. thanks to the past draft's big downtrade. No one I know even considered a downtrade.
As for pick 22, I also liked Reiff's value there for RT, and while Weeden busted out, he still was the better pick/gamble over a low value RG-only, just by position alone.
The Steelers themselves already admitted he was a semi-bust by moving him over from LG. For a guy touted to be day one ready, he was horrible as a rook there and sent his C on IR early this season. So now he plays like a PB RG? Good for them, but their OL still sucks and he hasn't solved any of their problems: their QB still gets pummeled and their RB AVG under 3.5ypc.
Goes to show how little impact and ultimately value the Position has. Take a look around league depth charts and average out where RGs were drafted, half of them are probably former UDFAs and late rounders and there are reasons for it.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Revisionist history? We have been down this road before and guys have already backed me up by saying that I was clamoring for a trade down BEFORE the draft.
And we can argue all day long on DeCastro, but the fact remains that it was a strong draft from the mid first round to well into the 4th. Those guys got paid to evaluate talent. It was their job to recognize that and then pick the right players. They did neither. They took two duds. It's not even debatable.
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They did neither. They took two duds. It's not even debatable.
And where did I or anyone debate it? I said so myself and crucified Heckert for it, but "strangely" you seem to overlook those posts.
Nice try to stir up another agenda debate though, but I'll give you a nugget, since we're talking bad drafting: how come you never were able to put a stamp like this on Mangini?
My apologies if you really wanted to trade down, but I didnt read the trash board at the time. I still think it's crazy to trade down in a draft where you already own 13/14 picks going in. You pick a player you really like at 4 and then go from there, obv Heckert picked the wrong guy and compounded the mistake by trading up, said so the moment after the selection.
FWIW, I would have picked Claiborne and then Reiff and targeted Weeden at 37, maybe on an uptrade too to make sure. McCoy/Wallace simply was not an alternative again after 2011, something you guys keep forgetting. As bad as Weeden was, we scored almost a TD more per game in 2012, that's how bad we were before.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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how come you never were able to put a stamp like this on Mangini?
Hey man, Veikune was a good pick. He just did not play well.
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Donald Brown is playing over Trent Richardson during "run the ball down their throat time." I think that is everything we need to know about Richardson.
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Yes and watching the two play is night and day. Trent lacks vision, and burst. He is slow to recognizes the hole(if even sees it) and when he does he can't get through it before it closes up.
Indy was losing this game until they stopped trying to force feed it to TRich and let Brown take over.
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Yeah, their OL is an OK run blocking unit. Donald Brown: 14 carries for 80 yards and 2 TD. (5.7 yards/carry) Trent Richardson: 8 carries for 22 yards. (2.75 yards/carry) Richardson did have a few catches, but he had one for 14 yards, and the other 5 were for a combined 17 yards. His explosiveness just seems to have completely disappeared. I bet that we get hung up on if we call the Colts about another trade.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I just realized. Would his lack of burst and inability to hit the hole preclude him from being a fullback? My great final redeeming scheme for him seems to have been foiled. I think a season at full back might do him some good. Full backs don't dance around and try to find a hole. They go where they are supposed to and run directly into a would be tackler. Trent has already mastered half that equation. 
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My barber on Trent Richardson:
"He thinks he's going to hit a home run on every play. The boys in front of him open up holes for, 3, 5, 7, yards... but he wants to find a hole to take him to the endzone. By the time he realizes that this ain't Tuscaloosa, and that path don't exist, he either gets buried behind the line, or looks good scrapping for second and eight."
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More pages in this thread than Richardson has rushing yards
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2nd String
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Revisionist history? We have been down this road before and guys have already backed me up by saying that I was clamoring for a trade down BEFORE the draft.
And we can argue all day long on DeCastro, but the fact remains that it was a strong draft from the mid first round to well into the 4th. Those guys got paid to evaluate talent. It was their job to recognize that and then pick the right players. They did neither. They took two duds. It's not even debatable.
I remember the trade down talk... Vers definitely was pushing for it. I liked the idea too but didn't really think it was something the FO was considering. Personally I didn't want Trent but got on board once we picked him. I pushed for us to draft Weeden though which is not something I'm proud of. What a botched draft that was. 
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Quote:
Revisionist history? We have been down this road before and guys have already backed me up by saying that I was clamoring for a trade down BEFORE the draft.
And we can argue all day long on DeCastro, but the fact remains that it was a strong draft from the mid first round to well into the 4th. Those guys got paid to evaluate talent. It was their job to recognize that and then pick the right players. They did neither. They took two duds. It's not even debatable.
I remember the trade down talk... Vers definitely was pushing for it. I liked the idea too but didn't really think it was something the FO was considering. Personally I didn't want Trent but got on board once we picked him. I pushed for us to draft Weeden though which is not something I'm proud of. What a botched draft that was.
How do you think I feel? I liked both picks. 
Oh well, no one is perfect. I was on board with trading Trent when the deal was made though, because it was obvious that he wasn't doing what we needed him to do, and we received a 1st round pick for him, which was more than a good value.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I liked the Weeden pick a lot more once we signed Turner.
I thought he could go 2007 DA for us. Sadly he went 2008 DA.
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Yeah, their OL is an OK run blocking unit.
Donald Brown: 14 carries for 80 yards and 2 TD. (5.7 yards/carry)
Trent Richardson: 8 carries for 22 yards. (2.75 yards/carry)
Richardson did have a few catches, but he had one for 14 yards, and the other 5 were for a combined 17 yards.
His explosiveness just seems to have completely disappeared. I bet that we get hung up on if we call the Colts about another trade.
Everytime I see him,he has horrid numbers,while Bradshaw or Brown get it done.Heck,Luck is a better option than him for a run.The Browns FO rocked on this deal,and gave us an extra 1st.
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... he wasn't doing what we needed him to do...
He isn't able to break the first tackle, certainly not running over/through people. He is playing like he weighs 185 lbs...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I liked the Weeden pick a lot more once we signed Turner.
I thought he could go 2007 DA for us. Sadly he went 2008 DA.
can't say I ever liked the Weeden pick.. But like you, I thought, hey, with Turner, this could maybe work. Well, I was wrong again LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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More pages in this thread than Richardson has rushing yards
Now THAT is funny stuff!
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How do you think I feel? I liked both picks.
I didn't like either pick, especially the Weeden pick and hated getting fleeced by Minny to move up to get Richardson.
But, I look at the bright side. At least we got a first rounder back for Richardson. So, we gave up draft position in the first round and an early 4th, an early 5th and an early 7th to get him. We still overpaid, but it's not nearly as bad as it could have been.
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Oh well, no one is perfect. I was on board with trading Trent when the deal was made though, because it was obvious that he wasn't doing what we needed him to do, and we received a 1st round pick for him, which was more than a good value.
But I am perfect. Alright, you got me. I am no one.
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Alright, you got me. I am no one.
Abracadabra...Poof!!! 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Praised in most corners for their trade of Trent Richardson from Cleveland two months ago, the Indianapolis Colts have recently taken a lot of criticism for the move.
Richardson has 250 yards in seven games. His 2.8 yards-per-carry average in Indianapolis ranks with the worst running backs in football. But if the wildly uneven Colts could do it all over again, they tell NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport they would still make the same trade.
"There's a couple reasons why," Rapoport said on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access Kickoff" on Thursday. "He's young. They love the violent way that he runs. Plus, he's cheap. The Browns are picking up a ton of his tab. ... He's had several head coaches, he's had several offensive coordinators. The Colts really think that once he immerses himself in their offense, he's going to go off."
This sounds like excuse making, but some of it shows up on film. NFL Media's LaDainian Tomlinson said that Richardson doesn't trust his offensive line and doesn't look like he has a strong grasp of the offense.
NFL Media Columnist Michael Silver said that former Indianapolis Colts running back Edgerrin James has been mentoring Richardson in recent weeks.
"Listen, this kid's going through a lot," James told Silver. "His family is coming to town, he's adjusting to a new city and it's a new offense. Give him an offseason, you'll see him roll, you'll see the guy that everyone fell in love with out of Alabama."
The Colts don't have an offseason to wait. They are in position to make the playoffs this year. They can spin it any way they want, but it has to be deeply disappointing that Richardson is getting outplayed by Donald Brown. Running back is usually the easiest position for young players to pick up. That's part of the reason why the Colts felt confident in acquiring Richardson in the middle of the season.
Link
More excuses for Richardson. They sound like us all off-season.
Man, that's funny. You could have said nearly the exact same thing about him last year.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Came in here to post this article. What a joke, the guy has more excuses than yards this season.
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Quote:
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Praised in most corners for their trade of Trent Richardson from Cleveland two months ago, the Indianapolis Colts have recently taken a lot of criticism for the move.
Richardson has 250 yards in seven games. His 2.8 yards-per-carry average in Indianapolis ranks with the worst running backs in football. But if the wildly uneven Colts could do it all over again, they tell NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport they would still make the same trade.
"There's a couple reasons why," Rapoport said on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access Kickoff" on Thursday. "He's young. They love the violent way that he runs. Plus, he's cheap. The Browns are picking up a ton of his tab. ... He's had several head coaches, he's had several offensive coordinators. The Colts really think that once he immerses himself in their offense, he's going to go off."
This sounds like excuse making, but some of it shows up on film. NFL Media's LaDainian Tomlinson said that Richardson doesn't trust his offensive line and doesn't look like he has a strong grasp of the offense.
NFL Media Columnist Michael Silver said that former Indianapolis Colts running back Edgerrin James has been mentoring Richardson in recent weeks.
"Listen, this kid's going through a lot," James told Silver. "His family is coming to town, he's adjusting to a new city and it's a new offense. Give him an offseason, you'll see him roll, you'll see the guy that everyone fell in love with out of Alabama."
The Colts don't have an offseason to wait. They are in position to make the playoffs this year. They can spin it any way they want, but it has to be deeply disappointing that Richardson is getting outplayed by Donald Brown. Running back is usually the easiest position for young players to pick up. That's part of the reason why the Colts felt confident in acquiring Richardson in the middle of the season.
Link
More excuses for Richardson. They sound like us all off-season.
Man, that's funny. You could have said nearly the exact same thing about him last year.
The move looks dumber as the weeks pass, especially with a team like Indy that seems to be a player or two away from being a serious contender. I know they won't admit it, but they're lying about doing this trade over if they could.
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Odd comment considering that you continually defended Heckert I explained my entire thought process on the draft and how I react...I do not see how you can take that as odd. You glom me too much with all the arguments you had...I think I had agreed about the Value of RB and its not a position that you take that high. But I promoted Trent as soon as he was a Brown.
And I sure as heck don't feel bad for pimping DeCastro.
Believe it or not, not everything I mention about you is a NEGATIVE...lol It was a compliment cause NOBODY was talking about DeCastro until you brought him up...all of a sudden there was an entire crew thinking he was going to be greater than Hutchinson...I credit you with selling him not that it was your intention or anything...but you most defintely convinced a heck of a lot of people on his greatness. My point was not to make you feel "BAD" about it. Just stating an observation. I thought RT was so so needed by our team. That's all.
If only we all could be the perfect fan you are.
You know you can be a JERK sometimes...this is one of them. No need to insult me like that. You got a problem communicating. 
The thought process? The plan? LOL.
Unfortunately your agenda against the other regime, yes I said the word that everyone thinks but are afraid to say it cause of your bullying tactics...lol 
But you refuse to see any plan...any foundation of youth, you will grab at any negative straws to spout your Agenda of all that came from the past regime. I for one am very very pleased with the present regime in many ways. But I can at least see the plan of talent being brought in. The plan to have a mega Cap Space to add FA to fill pieces of the pie and to sign 2nd contracts to the Worthy. As for the two Negatives in 2012. I have educated myself and found out that Heckert did not wish to move up but was over ridden by the Boss. Heckert did not wish to take Weeden at #22 that he thought he would be there for the 2nd round pick. Again was over ridden by the Boss.
Granted he had both on our Big Board.
Ahhh... unfortunately I cannot have football discussions with you. Your pride just kicks in n you have to insult me... Oh well. I will keep trying.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Came in here to post this article. What a joke, the guy has more excuses than yards this season.
+ 1
I saw Brown rip it up in yday's game. They should just make Trent a TE, he catches the ball and is way, way more effective doing so than running it. I don't know, but all the anger n' etc I had about this trade is 100% depleted. As each Indy game passes, it just makes Lombardi/Banner look more like gurus.
JMO
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As stated he's actually a 3rd down back in a 230 body. In space (usually with passes) he is more comfortable and his terribly POOR VISION is not in the mix in space where there is not too much to figure out. He does break tackles. He had 1 run for 1 yard for the longest time yesterday. He did have that one 8 yard run in the 2nd half. And like I said he should come in with the passing formations. I think he blocked much better than Brown (who got beat badly a few times) and he has good hands. Brown's vision is so so much better when running Tackle to Tackle.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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the only reason Donald Brown hasn't been a good RB in the NFL thus far is that he has absolutely no instinct or technique on pass blocking.
he has vision, he has decent burst, he can catch well enough. but, he also will get his QB killed. they should put a 2 back formation with Trent as the FB, so he can stay in for pass protection.
#gmstrong
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j/c
Still get a laugh out of the Colts board with many defending T-Rich to the bitter end with the same excuses we all used before. A few of them know they wasted a No.1 when it wasn't necessary.
Brown averaged 5.7 and T-Rich averaged 2.8 last night behind the same o-line that they have been making excuses for Trent's woes. Also the excuse of new system, new coaches, blah blah blah. I know its a different "system", but surely it is easier for a running back to move to a team mid-season than any other skill position. Take ball, see hole, hit hole, improvise towards goal-line. We pulled an out of shape guy off the street and got the same production. If he can run his passing routes, he surly can run to open space. He also missed some easy blocks last night. He is just not good and I see no indications of any improvement.
"My signature line goes here."
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Quote:
Yeah, their OL is an OK run blocking unit.
Donald Brown: 14 carries for 80 yards and 2 TD. (5.7 yards/carry)
Trent Richardson: 8 carries for 22 yards. (2.75 yards/carry)
Richardson did have a few catches, but he had one for 14 yards, and the other 5 were for a combined 17 yards.
His explosiveness just seems to have completely disappeared. I bet that we get hung up on if we call the Colts about another trade.
Brown had a great game. Definitely looked like the better back last night.
My take on "his explosiveness has disappeared" isn't that he's lost it, but rather he appears to be waiting for something instead of just going. He takes on tacklers instead of trying to squeeze past them then fights breaking tackles. Brown looked lost during his first 4 years in the league but looks like a different guy now as he uses his speed to get through creases. Richardson is being a power-back and that's not getting big plays.
I still like what Richardson brings to the table, but last night Brown was the better back. He instinctively made all the right cuts at the right times.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
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I still like what Richardson brings to the table, but last night Brown was the better back. He instinctively made all the right cuts at the right times.
Last night and all season. Brown is averaging 5.9 yards per carry behind the same line that Richardson is averaging 2.8 yards per carry. Brown has 50 more yards than Richardson while carrying the ball 41 less times.
Brown was a guy that could not even get on the field his first four seasons playing behind greats such as Joseph Addai (3.9 yards per carry in 2009) and Vic Ballard.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,879
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,879 |
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Praised in most corners for their trade of Trent Richardson from Cleveland two months ago, the Indianapolis Colts have recently taken a lot of criticism for the move.
Richardson has 250 yards in seven games. His 2.8 yards-per-carry average in Indianapolis ranks with the worst running backs in football. But if the wildly uneven Colts could do it all over again, they tell NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport they would still make the same trade.
"There's a couple reasons why," Rapoport said on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access Kickoff" on Thursday. "He's young. They love the violent way that he runs. Plus, he's cheap. The Browns are picking up a ton of his tab. ... He's had several head coaches, he's had several offensive coordinators. The Colts really think that once he immerses himself in their offense, he's going to go off."
This sounds like excuse making, but some of it shows up on film. NFL Media's LaDainian Tomlinson said that Richardson doesn't trust his offensive line and doesn't look like he has a strong grasp of the offense.
NFL Media Columnist Michael Silver said that former Indianapolis Colts running back Edgerrin James has been mentoring Richardson in recent weeks.
"Listen, this kid's going through a lot," James told Silver. "His family is coming to town, he's adjusting to a new city and it's a new offense. Give him an offseason, you'll see him roll, you'll see the guy that everyone fell in love with out of Alabama."
The Colts don't have an offseason to wait. They are in position to make the playoffs this year. They can spin it any way they want, but it has to be deeply disappointing that Richardson is getting outplayed by Donald Brown. Running back is usually the easiest position for young players to pick up. That's part of the reason why the Colts felt confident in acquiring Richardson in the middle of the season.
Link
More excuses for Richardson. They sound like us all off-season.
Man, that's funny. You could have said nearly the exact same thing about him last year.
The move looks dumber as the weeks pass, especially with a team like Indy that seems to be a player or two away from being a serious contender. I know they won't admit it, but they're lying about doing this trade over if they could.
Yeah, but that's the thing, they believe they are a player or two away and I think they thought that player was TRich.. it hasn't worked out that way so far.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
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Nice try to stir up another agenda debate though, but I'll give you a nugget, since we're talking bad drafting: how come you never were able to put a stamp like this on Mangini?
Anytime I disagree w/you, you throw out the "agenda" word. Let me guess, you don't have an agenda?
I'll put a stamp on Mangini's draft. It was putrid. Is that good enough for you? Not sure what Mangini has to do w/TRich, though????
No agenda, huh?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
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Unfortunately your agenda against the other regime, yes I said the word that everyone thinks but are afraid to say it cause of your bullying tactics...
Followed by this:
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Ahhh... unfortunately I cannot have football discussions with you. Your pride just kicks in n you have to insult me... Oh well. I will keep trying.
Classic.
Btw------I am curious about this:
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I have educated myself and found out that Heckert did not wish to move up but was over ridden by the Boss. Heckert did not wish to take Weeden at #22 that he thought he would be there for the 2nd round pick. Again was over ridden by the Boss.
Will you educate the dummies like me on the board and share your proof of the what your education taught you?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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j/c... This seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I love that the new thing on this board is accusing other of "not being able to talk football"
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,879
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,879 |
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j/c...
This seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I love that the new thing on this board is accusing other of "not being able to talk football"
Say it ain't so
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The belated TRich trade thread
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