Oh, no need to apologize, man. I was just saying that in jest since we seem to be on opposite ends of the table a lot, but I wasn't being serious. We haven't come up with a font yet for "joking."
I've always viewed forums (fora?) for analysis of the past, present and projections of the short-term future. I find it extremely difficult to put a career projection for someone like Hoyer out there when he has only really won 2 games with us.
I guess we're all different though.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Quote: Even if Hoyer seems to be "the answer", we should still draft a QB if we can get one who looks like a franchise guy.
There in lies the quandary... if, and it's still a big IF, Hoyer seems to be the answer, that means we are probably going to win 8 games +/- a game... and all indications are that the Colts are going to win 10+.. so we are going to end up one late teens pick and one early to mid 20s pick... probably.
So if you have a guy who "seems" to be the answer, are you still willing to part with a whole host of picks to move up and pick one of the big 2 or 3 QBs in the draft? If one is sitting there when you pick then yea, you would be insane to not take him... but what if you aren't really sure you need him? Those picks could go a long way to bolstering a lot of other positions...
Quote: Oh, no need to apologize, man. I was just saying that in jest since we seem to be on opposite ends of the table a lot, but I wasn't being serious. We haven't come up with a font yet for "joking."
I've always viewed forums (fora?) for analysis of the past, present and projections of the short-term future. I find it extremely difficult to put a career projection for someone like Hoyer out there when he has only really won 2 games with us.
I guess we're all different though.
Im certainly not calling him the next Peyton Manning, (maybe I missed the post where someone did). All I asked was what is it that makes people say he isnt going to be a viable starter. I dont really see where folks are calling him the second coming of Tom Brady, just pointing out that he did study under him, and there are similarities in their style.
Quote: Oh, no need to apologize, man. I was just saying that in jest since we seem to be on opposite ends of the table a lot, but I wasn't being serious. We haven't come up with a font yet for "joking."
I've always viewed forums (fora?) for analysis of the past, present and projections of the short-term future. I find it extremely difficult to put a career projection for someone like Hoyer out there when he has only really won 2 games with us.
I guess we're all different though.
Im certainly not calling him the next Peyton Manning, (maybe I missed the post where someone did). All I asked was what is it that makes people say he isnt going to be a viable starter. I dont really see where folks are calling him the second coming of Tom Brady, just pointing out that he did study under him, and there are similarities in their style.
We saw Weeden for 14 or so games last year and didn't know if he was going to be a viable starter coming into this season. Why must we know the answer about Hoyer after 2 games?
I hope Hoyer can be the guy. I would love nothing better than to go into the draft with 2 first round picks and be able to add 2 weapons on this team. However, I've seen the Back-up coming in and have success a few times now. Hopefully Hoyer will buck the trend and be "The Guy". My memory just won't let me forget Kelly Holcomb & Derek Anderson and how far they fell once teams had game film on them.
one reason i was thinking hoyer may have been overlooked is due to the pressure in games vs practices.
i was at camp this year, and i didnt notice the guy.
weeden and campbell have bigger arms, and were able to do much on the field. without a pass rush, without the NEED to put a TD on the board, weeden and campbell could fling it all over the practice field and look pretty good doing it. Hoyer on the other hand could not stretch the field the same way.
The difference is, in games, hoyer has that quick release, quick decision making, quick reads, and above all that, he rises to the occasion.
I like weeden and i still dont think weve seen enough to say he cant be good in this league, but i have seen enough from hoyer for me to want to keep him in there to see what he can do against some actual decent defenses, and having some more practice time under his belt.
Thanks for putting up those numbers. I agree in principle that a higher yards/completions average is good, but I'm going to take issue with one thing:
Quote: The difference between a QB averaging 6.5 yards/attempt and 7.5 is generally between 25-40 additional yards/game on offense.
Only if the number of completions are equal in every game. It's entirely possible that a QB have a lower yards/completion average and yet throw for more yards overall. The difference is in number of completed passes.
Quote: It's making more 1st downs. It can be converting those close plays. It can be getting the ball in as opposed to being at the 1.
Again, not necessarily. A QB might have a 8.0 yards/completion average and yet make less 1st downs than a QB with a 6.5 y/c average. How so? Completion percentage. Which is better: 8.0 y/c average with a 55% completion average, or 6.5 y/c average with 68% completion average? This is hypothetical, so I don't have the answer, but my point is that you can't isolate yards/completion average in this way and make an accurate assessment of a QB. Plus, it's biased against Hoyer who has a lower y/c average to begin with. It would be interesting to know if Hoyer is behind all of those other QBs in making first downs and the other things you mentioned. I'm too busy to do that work, but perhaps someone can pick it up from here.
And there are still some good posts scattered in, but the usual suspects have kinda derailed the intent of the thread and used hyperbole as a guide to rational.
Does anyone else find it ironic that the very guys that have defended Weeden over and over and over are the same guys now coming up w/excuses as to why Hoyer is playing well and diminishing all of his accomplishments?
Poor secondaries, guys making great plays, great coaching, blah, blah, blah.
I have been pretty adamant that our qb of the future is not on the roster. Probably more so than any other poster. However, I have to admit that Hoyer at least gives me reason to reconsider that position. And I love you, 05...............but what the heck is wrong about discussing whether or not Hoyer is the guy?
All I know is that after reading all the sour grapes and BS from the Weeden lovers, I am rooting for Hoyer even more than I was before.
I saw your comments about Weeden/Hoyer vs. Couch/Holcomb.
Personally, Weeden isn't as talented as Couch and Holcomb isn't as talented as Hoyer. That's about the only comparisons that I would make between them.
My point is that the QB who gets that extra yard per attempt will add another 25-40 yards to the offense by the end of the game without "doing anything". (the average number of times most QBs throw the ball in a single game) It's yards per attempt ..... not yards per completion.
If the QB throws 25 times, and averages 6.5 yards per throw, then he gains 162.5 yards on the day. He gains 187.5 if he averaged 7.5 yards per throw. If he throws the ball 40 times in a game, and averages 6.5 yards/throw, then he gains 260 yards on the day. If he gains 7.5 yards/throw, then he gains 300 yards.
I feel that it is one of the most overlooked indicators of potential success for a QB. We had guys like Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy struggle to hit even the low 6 range. Quinn never got there, His best year was 5,8 yards/pass attempt. That was anemic. No wonder the offense was too. McCoy averaged 7.1 yards/attempt under Mangini and Daboll, but then dropped off to 5.9 in his full season under Shurmur. That means that every time we thew the ball under Shurmur gained us a full 1.2 yards less than under Mangini. Is it any wonder that Colt appeared to regress under Shurmur? When a QB consistently completes only very short passes, even if he has a solid completion percentage, it's a struggle for the offense to help the team win. That was one thing that encouraged me about Weeden .... that he got that average per attempt up to 6.55 yards/pass attempt last year, even with only a 57% pass completion rate. Those are "hidden yards" that good teams get. He was only to the bottom of what I want to see out of a starting QB .... but I had some hope .......
By the way, Hoyer was over 7 yards/pass attempt in the Bengals game. I thought that he looked better at first watch, and that helps seal that belief in my eyes. (he was only 5.94 in the Vikings game) Not surprising to me that I thought he looked much better in that 2nd start.
The yards per pass attempt takes into account completion percentage .... because most guys aren't going to hit that 7.5 and above mark with a bad completion percentage. Tim Tebow threw a ton of deep passes, but he was still stuck at that 6.38 yards/pass attempt because of his poor completion percentage. Even a "safe throw" guy like Alex Smith can achieve a high number in this regard, and win games. Last year he averaged 8 yards/pass attempt until he was benched. This year in KC he is averaging only 6.6 yards/pass attempt. He's never been a QB to carry his team, but that is still significant. What is the main difference? His completion percentage is down from 70% to 60%. That drives his average yards/attempt down. The Chiefs are built to win with limited QB play though .... much like the Niners were last year. The guy who replaced him in Frisco is struggling this year, as is his team. Last year Kaepernick was at 8.32 yards/pass attempt. His completion percentage has also dropped, which affects his yards/pass attempt. This year he's down to 7.32. That means that, on average, every time they throw the ball, they gain a full yard less compared to last year. Is it any wonder that they are not as effective on offense this year?
Anyway ..... that's why I feel that this is such a strong indicator ..... maybe not purely of success ..... but a low number can indicate a guy who is not going to succeed in the NFL IMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Even if Hoyer seems to be "the answer", we should still draft a QB if we can get one who looks like a franchise guy. QBs get hurt all the time in this league, and even if we don't need an injury replacement, plus level, or potential plus level QBs are an incredible asset.
I agree. However, I don't see any franchise guys coming out right now...or eligible to come out early.
BUT, if it's me, I'm drafting a QB early no matter what Hoyer does and no matter if a 'franchise' guy is there. Hoyer isn't young...but not yet old either.
If Hoyer continues to play well, I'm drafting a QB by the end of Rd 3. Hopefully "our guy" will fall to one of our picks which keeps us from pulling our pants down to trade up for a non-existent-as-yet franchise QB.
If Hoyer fails, we will be back to trading up - which I absolutely hate.
Bridgewater is the real deal. I'm also starting to like Mettenberger from LSU.
Bridgewater was the guy that came to mind immediately after reading the first post. I also think some bench time to learn would help Boyd if we throw him into the QB mix.
Mettenberger reminds me too much of Roethlisberger. Big guy with a strong arm, history of sexual battery and noone can spell his name.
Hundley from UCLA might be the 1st Qb taken if he comes out. A lot of people really like this guy. Personally I haven't seen him play.
The guy I really like is Hogan from Stanford. He probably won't come out this year (not sure if he could if he wanted to) but I think he will be something special. Maybe not Luck but close. Big guy, nice release, strong arm and smart. Seems to be a good leader. Doesn't have the stats yet. I think because he needs some seasoning. The Browns could be the perfect situation for him. Sit behind Hoyer for a year or two before taking over.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: And I love you, 05...............but what the heck is wrong about discussing whether or not Hoyer is the guy?
Back at ya, Vers.
After deep thought about the subject, I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing whether or not he's the guy. Hell, I was in high school with him (be it for only a year, as I'm actually older than Weeden ), so few things would make me happier than to see him work out.
I think more than many things it may just be my battered Browns fan mechanism. I want to guard against unbridled optimism and the Brady comparisons because we've all seen that song and dance before, where that optimism turns into high expectations, turns into crashing disappointment, turns into pitchforks and torches. I really don't want that to happen with Brian. That's why I am taking and emphasizing a very cautionary wait and see approach.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I watched the Stanford-Washington State game, and I thought he looked pretty good overall. I kinda wondered why people weren't talking about him. He is a sophomore, so I don't know how that effects his draft status. I think that a player has to be a junior to be drafted .... but I'm not sure.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I watched the Stanford-Washington State game, and I thought he looked pretty good overall. I kinda wondered why people weren't talking about him. He is a sophomore, so I don't know how that effects his draft status. I think that a player has to be a junior to be drafted .... but I'm not sure.
NFL rules state all prospective draftees must be at least three years removed from high school.
Quote: My point is that the QB who gets that extra yard per attempt will add another 25-40 yards to the offense by the end of the game without "doing anything". (the average number of times most QBs throw the ball in a single game) It's yards per attempt ..... not yards per completion.
If the QB throws 25 times, and averages 6.5 yards per throw, then he gains 162.5 yards on the day. He gains 187.5 if he averaged 7.5 yards per throw. If he throws the ball 40 times in a game, and averages 6.5 yards/throw, then he gains 260 yards on the day. If he gains 7.5 yards/throw, then he gains 300 yards.
I feel that it is one of the most overlooked indicators of potential success for a QB. We had guys like Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy struggle to hit even the low 6 range. Quinn never got there, His best year was 5,8 yards/pass attempt. That was anemic. No wonder the offense was too. McCoy averaged 7.1 yards/attempt under Mangini and Daboll, but then dropped off to 5.9 in his full season under Shurmur. That means that every time we thew the ball under Shurmur gained us a full 1.2 yards less than under Mangini. Is it any wonder that Colt appeared to regress under Shurmur? When a QB consistently completes only very short passes, even if he has a solid completion percentage, it's a struggle for the offense to help the team win. That was one thing that encouraged me about Weeden .... that he got that average per attempt up to 6.55 yards/pass attempt last year, even with only a 57% pass completion rate. Those are "hidden yards" that good teams get. He was only to the bottom of what I want to see out of a starting QB .... but I had some hope .......
By the way, Hoyer was over 7 yards/pass attempt in the Bengals game. I thought that he looked better at first watch, and that helps seal that belief in my eyes. (he was only 5.94 in the Vikings game) Not surprising to me that I thought he looked much better in that 2nd start.
The yards per pass attempt takes into account completion percentage .... because most guys aren't going to hit that 7.5 and above mark with a bad completion percentage. Tim Tebow threw a ton of deep passes, but he was still stuck at that 6.38 yards/pass attempt because of his poor completion percentage. Even a "safe throw" guy like Alex Smith can achieve a high number in this regard, and win games. Last year he averaged 8 yards/pass attempt until he was benched. This year in KC he is averaging only 6.6 yards/pass attempt. He's never been a QB to carry his team, but that is still significant. What is the main difference? His completion percentage is down from 70% to 60%. That drives his average yards/attempt down. The Chiefs are built to win with limited QB play though .... much like the Niners were last year. The guy who replaced him in Frisco is struggling this year, as is his team. Last year Kaepernick was at 8.32 yards/pass attempt. His completion percentage has also dropped, which affects his yards/pass attempt. This year he's down to 7.32. That means that, on average, every time they throw the ball, they gain a full yard less compared to last year. Is it any wonder that they are not as effective on offense this year?
Anyway ..... that's why I feel that this is such a strong indicator ..... maybe not purely of success ..... but a low number can indicate a guy who is not going to succeed in the NFL IMHO.
I understand what you are saying here YT, but I have to point out that Hoyer has done a good job of throwing the ball away when the play is not there. I haven't seen that done competently for a while at the Browns QB position.
Now if your factor those saved yards by avoiding sacks, forced fumbles and INTs, I'd say his YPA goes up considerably.
Quote: My point is that the QB who gets that extra yard per attempt will add another 25-40 yards to the offense by the end of the game without "doing anything". (the average number of times most QBs throw the ball in a single game) It's yards per attempt ..... not yards per completion.
If the QB throws 25 times, and averages 6.5 yards per throw, then he gains 162.5 yards on the day. He gains 187.5 if he averaged 7.5 yards per throw. If he throws the ball 40 times in a game, and averages 6.5 yards/throw, then he gains 260 yards on the day. If he gains 7.5 yards/throw, then he gains 300 yards.
I feel that it is one of the most overlooked indicators of potential success for a QB. We had guys like Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy struggle to hit even the low 6 range. Quinn never got there, His best year was 5,8 yards/pass attempt. That was anemic. No wonder the offense was too. McCoy averaged 7.1 yards/attempt under Mangini and Daboll, but then dropped off to 5.9 in his full season under Shurmur. That means that every time we thew the ball under Shurmur gained us a full 1.2 yards less than under Mangini. Is it any wonder that Colt appeared to regress under Shurmur? When a QB consistently completes only very short passes, even if he has a solid completion percentage, it's a struggle for the offense to help the team win. That was one thing that encouraged me about Weeden .... that he got that average per attempt up to 6.55 yards/pass attempt last year, even with only a 57% pass completion rate. Those are "hidden yards" that good teams get. He was only to the bottom of what I want to see out of a starting QB .... but I had some hope .......
By the way, Hoyer was over 7 yards/pass attempt in the Bengals game. I thought that he looked better at first watch, and that helps seal that belief in my eyes. (he was only 5.94 in the Vikings game) Not surprising to me that I thought he looked much better in that 2nd start.
The yards per pass attempt takes into account completion percentage .... because most guys aren't going to hit that 7.5 and above mark with a bad completion percentage. Tim Tebow threw a ton of deep passes, but he was still stuck at that 6.38 yards/pass attempt because of his poor completion percentage. Even a "safe throw" guy like Alex Smith can achieve a high number in this regard, and win games. Last year he averaged 8 yards/pass attempt until he was benched. This year in KC he is averaging only 6.6 yards/pass attempt. He's never been a QB to carry his team, but that is still significant. What is the main difference? His completion percentage is down from 70% to 60%. That drives his average yards/attempt down. The Chiefs are built to win with limited QB play though .... much like the Niners were last year. The guy who replaced him in Frisco is struggling this year, as is his team. Last year Kaepernick was at 8.32 yards/pass attempt. His completion percentage has also dropped, which affects his yards/pass attempt. This year he's down to 7.32. That means that, on average, every time they throw the ball, they gain a full yard less compared to last year. Is it any wonder that they are not as effective on offense this year?
Anyway ..... that's why I feel that this is such a strong indicator ..... maybe not purely of success ..... but a low number can indicate a guy who is not going to succeed in the NFL IMHO.
I understand what you are saying here YT, but I have to point out that Hoyer has done a good job of throwing the ball away when the play is not there. I haven't seen that done competently for a while at the Browns QB position.
Now if your factor those saved yards by avoiding sacks, forced fumbles and INTs, I'd say his YPA goes up considerably.
It all works into the equation. Incompletions, throw aways, sacks ..... but in the end of the day, the QB still has to produce at an acceptable rate.
Hoyer did a much better job in his 2nd start, averaging over 7 yards/pass attempt. I still want to see him get over 7.5 yards/pass attempt and I'll feel better about his future.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Agreed. Yards per attempt and completion percentage are the two most important individual metrics for QB performance in my book. A good QB will be better than 7.5 YPA and 60%. A great one will be better than 8 YPA and 65%.
That's what gave me concern about Hoyer vs Minnesota…despite the win, his numbers were well below what I, and most, would consider desirable. This was compounded by the fact that he was playing a bad Vikings defense.
He showed significant improvement in those numbers against a good Cincy defense that did quite a bit to assuage my concerns. That said, I don't rely on single-game samples to develop an opinion on a QB. So, my hope is that he will continue to perform like he did last week. If he consistently shows us "vs Cincy" Hoyer as opposed to "vs Minny" Hoyer, then I'll feel pretty good when the end of the season rolls around. My expectation, on the other hand, is that he'll fall somewhere between the two, because it's a lot easier to be a bad NFL QB than a good one. I'd love for him to prove me wrong.
I will always take the guy who has proved it on the field over a prospect. Especially at the QB position. If Hoyer improves each week and continues to play at the level he is currently playing at. I can't see any reason why he isn't our starting QB next season.
Now, we've played two games, one of which was against the Vikings whose defense is horrendous. We'll see how he plays tomorrow.
You have to be very careful when discussing stats, especially given a limited sample.. Statistically Weeden and Hoyer have been fairly similar... completion % is with 5%, edge to Hoyer, YPG a bit wider with Hoyer have a 37 yard advantage, 20+ throws Weeden actually has 1 more (which is funny since I've heard announcers saying the Browns finally have a QB that will throw the ball down the field).... 1st downs a slight edge to Hoyer..... there are 2 numbers that really stand out as to why folks are high on Hoyer...
Sacks - Weeden 11 and Hoyer 6 Touchdowns - Weeden 1 and Hoyer 5
in 2 games.... Get the ball in the endzone and a lot of other issues seem to go away.
Quote: You have to be very careful when discussing stats, especially given a limited sample.. Statistically Weeden and Hoyer have been fairly&similar... completion % is with 5%, edge to Hoyer, YPG a bit wider with Hoyer have a 37 yard advantage, 20+ throws Weeden actually has 1 more (which is funny since I've heard announcers saying the Browns finally have a QB that will throw the ball down the field).... 1st downs a slight edge to Hoyer..... there are 2 numbers that really stand out as to why folks are high on Hoyer...
Sacks - Weeden 11 and Hoyer 6 Touchdowns - Weeden 1 and Hoyer 5
in 2 games.... Get the ball in the endzone and a lot of other issues seem to go away.
Maybe part of the problem with sacks for Weeden is that he takes too long to get rid of the ball. Hoyer makes faster decisions.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
I like stats, I really do. I think there are a lot of stats that can tell you a lot of things.
For a QB, the one you show is important. But, to me, there are more important aspects to a QB's play. Does he come thru on third downs? Does he come thru, late with the game on the line? I think Hoyer is looking good on these two, so far.
Does he come thru in the big game? Tomorrow, we got Prime-time, at home, to go over .500 and maintain a tie for the division lead. Third game, and a big test. Maybe with some bigger tests to come later this year. You're darn right I'm thinking the "P" word.
The most important QB trait is being a winner, as in actually winning games and not just boyish enthusiasm. IMO Hoyer has both.
But it's only been two games. Tomorrow night is HUGE.
Quote: I watched the Stanford-Washington State game, and I thought he looked pretty good overall. I kinda wondered why people weren't talking about him. He is a sophomore, so I don't know how that effects his draft status. I think that a player has to be a junior to be drafted .... but I'm not sure.
NFL rules state all prospective draftees must be at least three years removed from high school.
Hoyer is not the guy.....Hoyer is the guy if your looking for a good 2nd string QB, he's all that...Lets not forget Derek Anderson all of a sudden became the guy and the next year he wasnt.
We still need to draft a QB with one of our 1st round picks or trade both 1st rounders to move up to get a real QB we want and one with talent, lets not waste another 1st rounder on a QB just to say we drafted one ( Weeden)
Hoyer is not the starter we need to take us to the promise land, lets not get all gitty with back to back wins, it's nice he's a good solid back up right now but lets not expect more...Lets let him play out the season , lets let him play himself out or into the starting postion once Weeden is completely healthy.
Over the next few weeks the real Hoyer will surface, I hope it's great Tom Brady fashion, but I'm expecting solid back-up material.
Quote: He is a redshirt sophomore and he is really good. The Pac-12 is loaded with good QBs. Mariota, Hundley, and Hogan are all potential first round picks.
Cool, then he'll be eligible to enter the draft if he so chooses.
Hoyer is not the guy.....Hoyer is the guy if your looking for a good 2nd string QB, he's all that...Lets not forget Derek Anderson all of a sudden became the guy and the next year he wasnt.
We still need to draft a QB with one of our 1st round picks or trade both 1st rounders to move up to get a real QB we want and one with talent, lets not waste another 1st rounder on a QB just to say we drafted one ( Weeden)
Hoyer is not the starter we need to take us to the promise land, lets not get all gitty with back to back wins, it's nice he's a good solid back up right now but lets not expect more...Lets let him play out the season , lets let him play himself out or into the starting postion once Weeden is completely healthy.
Over the next few weeks the real Hoyer will surface, I hope it's great Tom Brady fashion, but I'm expecting solid back-up material.
We still need a franchise QB folks
I hope you are dead wrong.. But then you probably hope you are as well...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Agreed. Yards per attempt and completion percentage are the two most important individual metrics for QB performance in my book.
I could talk for a long time on this subject, but I will limit it to a few points.
--I agree that yards per pass attempt is important.
--I disagree on completion percentage. I would rather have a guy like Luck who throws for first downs on 3rd and long and misses more passes, than a guy like Weeden who dumps it off to raise his completion percentage but doesn't pick up first downs. Way overrated stat.
--Way more important than either is this one. Wins. Weeden is 0 and 2 this year and 5 and 12 for his career. Hoyer is 2 and 0. I'll take wins over anything.
--TD to Interception ratio is important. Weeden has something like 14 TDs and 20 picks. Hoyer has something like 5 TDs and 3 picks.
--I only bring these up because YTown is trotting these stats out there as a reason why Hoyer won't make it. Yet, I never once saw him use any of those sorts of stats to evaluate Weeden. I typically heard "excuses." BTW--------Weeden's yards per pass attempt is under 6.5 for his career.
--I think 3rd down conversions is another pretty big stat. I didn't look up the numbers for either.
--I think making plays at the end of halves and games is huge. I think we know how both fare in that regard.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
), so few things would make me happier than to see him work out. 
