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He had a nice game. He gave up about 4 completions, including the 2 pt. conversion. He is not quite elite, but I am happy w/his play this year. I am really pleased that he is finally shadowing the other team's #1 WR most of the game. That's huge! I think Horton is bringing out the best in him.
The one thing I like about Joe more than anything is what a physical tackler he is. He pounds guys after they make the catch.
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He had a nice game. He gave up about 4 completions, including the 2 pt. conversion. He is not quite elite, but I am happy w/his play this year. I am really pleased that he is finally shadowing the other team's #1 WR most of the game. That's huge! I think Horton is bringing out the best in him.
The one thing I like about Joe more than anything is what a physical tackler he is. He pounds guys after they make the catch.
pretty much. i just wish we had another thumper at CB.
skrine will lay the wood, like he does all the time, but i wish owens or mcfadden were thumper's.
then WR's would really be scared to go across the middle.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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I hear you, but man, I think our defense is playing very well. Much better than any of us expected. I was one of the positive guys about our defense and I didn't expect us to be this good.
Do you remember all the crying about us switching to a 3/4 and how Taylor was going to be traded, Reubin was going to be traded, Sheard was going to be traded and NONE of them fit the 3/4?
Funny how none of those guys are talking now.
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I couldn't be happier that the 3-4 is working, as I've been on this bandwagon for years. Too many people would look at the 3-4 under Crennel and say it didn't work, therefore the scheme doesn't work. Truth is it still comes down to implementation, coaching, talent, and execution. Horton is doing wonders with what he's been given to work with. I do remember being shouted down by saying the guys we had couldn't possibly work in a 3-4-hybrid. People forgot the words "rotation" and "hybrid" in the equation.
Vers, here's a thought. You can probably find something else to put in your sig. I think the war is over, soldier. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't really think it's about the 3/4 or the 4/3. Both can be effective. I'm glad the 3/4 is working for us. LOL on the sig. I have been meaning to change it. It's not even up to date. Just too lazy. Want me to find one that offends you? Perhaps something about TRich? 
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Nah, but you could join me in placing the flag off whichever team the Colts are playing on any given week. We need that draft pick man!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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LOL...........the power of the flag is working tonight, man! 
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Given the way things are trending, I think you need to put a horseshoe in your sig.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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The D really loose the battle of 3rd down way to much .. We are very week over the middle .. Responsibility ( DQ , Robertson , Ward , Gipson ) for the most part .. This part of the game drives me nuts ..
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The D really loose the battle of 3rd down way to much .. We are very week over the middle .. Responsibility ( DQ , Robertson , Ward , Gipson ) for the most part .. This part of the game drives me nuts ..
I agree. In my view, the Browns have to look hard at drafting TWO inside linebackers in the draft next year.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him. 
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
I hear Orlando Pace just bought a bar in Sandusky
Unless this front office is completely retarded, Mack isn't going anywhere.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Blah... lots of talk about trading Gordon and that didn't happen. Signing Alex Mack is in the realm of "no-brainer" for this front office. Just get it done the first day after the last game since Mack doesn't want to talk contract during the season. Besides, Jim Irasy is too stupid and too annoying to be granted a player of Mack's caliber.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
Any team that needs a Center will be after Mack.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Blah... lots of talk about trading Gordon and that didn't happen. Signing Alex Mack is in the realm of "no-brainer" for this front office.
Just get it done the first day after the last game since Mack doesn't want to talk contract during the season. Besides, Jim Irasy is too stupid and too annoying to be granted a player of Mack's caliber.
We should see if the Colts will give us their 2015 first rounder for us to re-sign Mack ourselves. You never know, they just might fall for it!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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J/c...
I'm sure we will try hard to sign Mack and Ward.
I doubt we will rely on Greco although I don't think we will retard the Center position too much if we do.
I don't think we will re-sign Lava unless its for close to league minimum - I have been a big supporter of his in the past but I think considering we started Pinkston at RG this past game (he moved over early to LG as Greco got hurt) - although the Unit played one of their best games with Pink n Lava at the OGs. I'm taking an educated guess Lava is on the way out???
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I don't think Mack wants to be here.
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By "they" you mean, Jim Irsay?  Will T.J. Ward play his final game with Browns at FirstEnergy? http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-report Quote:
CLEVELAND, Ohio - Are T.J. Ward's days numbered as a member of the Cleveland Browns?
Ohio.com reporter Nate Ulrich writes how Sunday could be Ward's last game playing for the Browns at FirstEnergy Stadium, but not if cornerback Joe Haden has any say in the matter.
“Of course, I want him to be in the best position for him and his family and everything like that, but being a football player, you’re trying to win games,” Haden said Wednesday. “I think the best possible way is to have him as our strong safety. If I had any say, which I don’t really think I do, I would definitely want T.J. to be here with me.”
This is the final year of Ward's rookie contract. He becomes an unrestricted free agent in March.
Ulrich writes how Haden said he’s willing to tell the organization’s new decision-makers how valuable Ward is to the defense if they ask.
“If there’s anything I can do to keep T.J. here, I’d do anything in my power for sure to keep him here because that’s not only a really good player, one of the best players on the team, it’s my best friend on the team,” Haden said.
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
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By "they" you mean, Jim Irsay?
Will T.J. Ward play his final game with Browns at FirstEnergy?
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-report
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CLEVELAND, Ohio - Are T.J. Ward's days numbered as a member of the Cleveland Browns?
Ohio.com reporter Nate Ulrich writes how Sunday could be Ward's last game playing for the Browns at FirstEnergy Stadium, but not if cornerback Joe Haden has any say in the matter.
“Of course, I want him to be in the best position for him and his family and everything like that, but being a football player, you’re trying to win games,” Haden said Wednesday. “I think the best possible way is to have him as our strong safety. If I had any say, which I don’t really think I do, I would definitely want T.J. to be here with me.”
This is the final year of Ward's rookie contract. He becomes an unrestricted free agent in March.
Ulrich writes how Haden said he’s willing to tell the organization’s new decision-makers how valuable Ward is to the defense if they ask.
“If there’s anything I can do to keep T.J. here, I’d do anything in my power for sure to keep him here because that’s not only a really good player, one of the best players on the team, it’s my best friend on the team,” Haden said.
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
and... I still don't understand why people want to get rid of Ward.. He's a beast, a leader in the locker room, and he's glue for the other good players(like Haden) on the team to keep them here.
We need to Resign Ward to a year longer than Haden so they both keep staying because they are BFF's. SS and FS are not a dime a dozen. There are only a few good ones out there. maybe 5 at each position. Ward is at the top of that list. It would be like getting rid of a top 5 QB .
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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I honestly believe if we let Mack go, Greco will get moved to center and Schwartz will replace Grecos spot.
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Lots of talk on the Colts board about Alex Mack, they are almost certain they are going to sign him.
Down 2 draft picks, I don't think the colts can afford tampering. They're talking out of theirbutts.
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j/c:
I really hope we retain Mack. He is very smart. He makes good line calls. Rarely do you see busted blocking protections from our OL. That is partly in part because of Mack's good reads at the LOS.
Mack is also very tough. He has the physicality to handle the big boys in our division. In addition, he is a durable player. He played after an appendectomy and I don't think he has every missed a snap, never mind a game.
I do worry about us retaining him, though. He didn't want to talk contract during the year. Hopefully, he doesn't want out. I'm apprehensive about this.
Ward? As most of you know, I think he is extremely overrated and his lack of coverage skills compromises our defense. Not sure how some see him as a leader??? I would keep him if he wants average safety money. However, if he wants to be paid like a top 3 or 4 safety........forget it. And I believe the Browns will evaluate him the same way.
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j/c:
I really hope we retain Mack. He is very smart. He makes good line calls. Rarely do you see busted blocking protections from our OL. That is partly in part because of Mack's good reads at the LOS.
Mack is also very tough. He has the physicality to handle the big boys in our division. In addition, he is a durable player. He played after an appendectomy and I don't think he has every missed a snap, never mind a game.
I do worry about us retaining him, though. He didn't want to talk contract during the year. Hopefully, he doesn't want out. I'm apprehensive about this.
Ward? As most of you know, I think he is extremely overrated and his lack of coverage skills compromises our defense. Not sure how some see him as a leader??? I would keep him if he wants average safety money. However, if he wants to be paid like a top 3 or 4 safety........forget it. And I believe the Browns will evaluate him the same way.
why wouldn't you pay him top 3 or 4 safety money when thats what the rest of league clearly see's him as?
you say mack is good, which i agree...in passing situations. he's part of the problem in run blocking. how come you don't bring up that?
i don't see how we as fans can not admit we have good talent on this team, and always see the negatives. please vers, enlighten us on who we should draft/trade for that will be as good or better than ward?
we have imo 2 good safeties. thats not an issue that needs upgrading right now. we need to keep ward, and i would love to keep mack, but you seem to harp on negatives about ward all the time, and never the negatives on mack.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him? Really?
I think Mack is better than Ward. Pure and simple.
It does amaze me how many of you mock me time after time after time for my opinions on guys and then when things come to fruition, get bent out of shape if I bring up the past arguments.
You wanna mock me and then not hear about how you mocked me after you have been proven wrong. So you can take you sarcastic tone and stuff it.
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Quote:
The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him? Really?
I think Mack is better than Ward. Pure and simple.
It does amaze me how many of you mock me time after time after time for my opinions on guys and then when things come to fruition, get bent out of shape if I bring up the past arguments.
You wanna mock me and then not hear about how you mocked me after you have been proven wrong. So you can take you sarcastic tone and stuff it.
i don't know what this is about mocking you in the past, but i'm definitely mocking you NOW seeing as how you completely ignored the question i asked you and went defending your online personality on these boards.
so i'll ask you again, and maybe this time you can keep it football talk:
why did you evaluate macks good without the bad.
and why do you evaluate wards bad without the good. and who would YOU draft/trade/sign that would be an upgrade over ward.
Last edited by Swish; 12/12/13 07:56 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Ward isn't even top 3-4 in the AFC, i would have no problem letting Ward walk. To be honest i think Mack is serviceable but not a world beater, his best attribute is his ability to stay healthy. I don't think I've ever seen ward actually just textbook tackle someone...he just hits them, I'd def. try to keep both guys if the money is right but neither at at the top of their positions so if they are looking to get paid as such, thats not going to happen with banner running things. Esp since both are 2 or 3 years from that magic 30 cutoff.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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when people say stupid things... other people that don't know that much believe it. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/24373/tj-wardhttps://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/27/secret-superstar-t-j-ward-s-cleveland-browns/http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/5/6/43...players-of-2012Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7 | Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties. http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...injury-1.451199Browns strong safety T.J. Ward rebounded from a knee injury he suffered last season, prompting his teammates to choose him as a recipient of the 2013 Ed Block Courage Award. over Phil Taylor and Jason Pinkston http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_226.htmlProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_tj_ward_irked.htmlFrom the day I stepped on an NFL field if you look at my numbers, the times I have been targeted and passes defended I’ve been in the top five of safeties,” Ward said. “That kind of itches me the wrong way when I get that stigma of ‘I can’t cover, I’m only a box safety.’ Numbers speak for themselves, film speaks for itself. In terms of quarterback passer rating when a ball is thrown into a coverage area, Ward ranks 10th among safeties this season, according to ProFootballFocus. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...s-best-safetiesTop shelf: Earl Thomas, Jairus Byrd, T.J. Ward, Devin McCourty, Eric Berry Ward has emerged as the top run-stuffing safety in the NFL http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2013/...h.9L8RoXWa.dpufHorton's thoughts on Ward: “I scouted him when he came out of Oregon and watched him as he played but had no idea what kind of character he had. He’s a very smart, instinctive young man. You don’t know that unless you coach the player. “He’s allowed me to do some things on the field with bringing him, disguising. He’s done everything I had hoped for and beyond. I’ve been very pleased with his production and really his leadership in the classroom and on the field.” I can keep going too
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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please keep going because you haven't really proven anything...other than what's been said...he's not a top 3-4 safety in the league. Thats the discussion.. Not if he's top 10..I don't think any thinks ward is total trash, but he's not worth ed reed/TP in his prime money. Granted noone is saying that's what's he's asking, but he's stated several times he puts himself in the same class as those two and thats just laughable. It all comes down to what he thinks he can get and what the Browns feel he's worth. And if Banner's past is any indication of the future, we aren't going to overpay players, ours or someone elses, unless you count Kruger, but that's a different discussion.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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please keep going because you haven't really proven anything...other than what's been said...he's not a top 3-4 safety in the league. Thats the discussion.. Not if he's top 10..I don't think any thinks ward is total trash, but he's not worth ed reed/TP in his prime money. Granted noone is saying that's what's he's asking, but he's stated several times he puts himself in the same class as those two and thats just laughable. It all comes down to what he thinks he can get and what the Browns feel he's worth. And if Banner's past is any indication of the future, we aren't going to overpay players, ours or someone elses, unless you count Kruger, but that's a different discussion.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/12/cleveland_browns_and_nfl_am_li_226.html
ProFootballFocus.com ranks Ward as the second-best overall safety in the NFL behind Devin McCourty of the New England Patriots.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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The Ward "discussion" is really getting laughable.
The dude is a SS, NOT a FS. People's standard seems to be that of a PB SS AND FS, it's double standard at its finest. Does anyone criticize Gipson for not making Ward-like stops vs the run? No, because it's stupid.
The SS' job is to stop the run and cover short and mid zones. If a SS had great instincts to cover deep, he'd be a FS. It's as ignorant as expecting our DTs to make as much pressure as our DE/OLBs. It's a different JOB and POSITION. Somehow, that pretty significant FACT gets forgotten in this "discussions". Ward isn't superman that can play both S-positions. If you put him at FS, he's probably a bottom 3rd FS, but as a SS, he's easily top 1-5.
There's no doubt that Ward is an animal vs the run. He has by far the most "stops" on our entire D. Going forward, he's probably the best SS around the league along right now. Against TEs, he's WELL above AVG, actually pretty GOOD in coverage in man to man situations. He covered Gronk 1on1 early on (remember the first drive?) and it was a 3 and out with a nice pass breakup on 3rd down. Gronk had 2 catches for 32 yds before his injury and one of those catches came when he was 1on1 vs McFadden lined up in the slot man to man. Gronk was a non factor until his injury. He was targeted 5 times and had 2 catches and who knows how often Brady looked his way without throwing it considering their receiving situation, which means he was covered good enough for not making Tom Brady pull the trigger.
People criticize him for not being Ed Reed in zone coverage and that's stupid. That's Gipson's job. He's the one sitting in zone's 95% of plays. So if we miss that player with instincts and play making ability in zone, we should look to replace Gipson, not Ward, who's pretty darn good at his job.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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The rest of the league sees him as a top 3-4 safety? Care to prove that? Are you equating media reports w/how other teams rate him?
Not for nothing, but how do you know they don't think of him as a top 3-4 safety? Just wondering?
Just a general thought,, I like Mack and Ward. But as always, if they find guys that are better, so be it. I'm all for improvement.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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The Ward "discussion" is really getting laughable.
Yes it is...for people on BOTH sides of the argument.
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The SS' job is to stop the run and cover short and mid zones.
And he is awful at 50% of his job. (See bolded word above.0
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There's no doubt that Ward is (sometimes/most times) an animal vs the run.
I fixed it for you. He whiffs waaaaaaaaaaay to much to be considered special.
The rest of your post is good stuff...but it doesn't change the reality posted above.
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So if we miss that player with instincts and play making ability in zone, we should look to replace Gipson, not Ward, who's pretty darn good at his job.
HOrton seems to disagree with your assessment of Gipson.
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j/c sort of...
So, I'm looking at all of these reports on Ward that superbowldogg is posting and wondering, if Vers and others are right, how could all of these people be so wrong? Something isn't adding up here.
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where's that GIF of last game where on a short td run ward was sitting 5 yards in the end zone and didn't make contact with the RB until the RB was already 5 yards in the endzone...plays like that happen all the time with him..I just don't see him as a top flight safety. I see him as serviceable. But I think he will be gone, he's going to want top money and banner isn't going to give it to him. I predict a rookie there next year.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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where's that GIF of last game where on a short td run ward was sitting 5 yards in the end zone and didn't make contact with the RB until the RB was already 5 yards in the endzone...plays like that happen all the time with him..I just don't see him as a top flight safety. I see him as serviceable. But I think he will be gone, he's going to want top money and banner isn't going to give it to him. I predict a rookie there next year.
you think we are top 5 ranked in the nfl against the run without Ward? we are ranked 4th in the nfl. you and other keep saying ward whiffed on tackles, well then by your logic, we have ZERO top talent on defense, because they have ALL whiffed on tackles this year. EVERY LAST ONE OF OUR DEFENSIVE PLAYERS.
without ward, we aren't even in the top 10 in rush defense. not only is he constantly in the backfield, he stops plays at the LOS all the time. hell, a lot of his stops save possible big runs. to say otherwise, then you might wanna go get the nfl package and re watch all the games.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
I resign Ward and Mack today.. today not tomorrow.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199 |
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Yes it is...for people on BOTH sides of the argument.
no... just one side.
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There's no doubt that Ward is (sometimes/most times) an animal vs the run.
I fixed it for you. He whiffs waaaaaaaaaaay to much to be considered special.
The rest of your post is good stuff...but it doesn't change the reality posted above.
http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/5/6/43...players-of-2012
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7 | Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199 |
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j/c sort of...
So, I'm looking at all of these reports on Ward that superbowldogg is posting and wondering, if Vers and others are right, how could all of these people be so wrong? Something isn't adding up here.
because I'm using actual data... everyone else is opinion based and parroting what other people have said on the board.
everyone says he wiffs and I just posted an article about how he was the 2nd most sure tackle safety in the NFL last year and is probably up in the top 5 again this year.
I've posted all sorts of articles supporting how good we have it and they just don't realize it. Ward is a BEAST at SS.
Personally, I think the fans are trying to get rid of a Drew Brees/Rodgers/Peyton Manning type player at his position and I just shake my head in disbelief.
sad.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199 |
Quote:
I'd like to keep Ward, but this reminds me an awful lot of the Sean Jones argument. When he left, he was never really good.
he was not that good... average in his best year
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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