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I have read a lot about how he was still recovering from a major knee injury, and wasn't anywhere near 100% in training camp.
That said, he is more of a power blocker than a finesse blocker.
He never practiced at camp. I'm talking about his play at LSU.
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Anybody pay attention to Gilkey at guard? I had no idea he played last week.
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I noticed that he was playing a few plays... didn't do anything to embarrass himself but I didn't really get to focus on him. I was a little disappointed when they put Pinkston back in just because I wanted to watch him more.
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Faulk This is Faulk against Bama. He is at LT. Poor fireoff is easy to notice right away. His profile says he is a physical specimen as evident by his 5.08 40 and good agility for his size at 6'6 335 but he balloons easy and needs to watch his weight. Seems more like 360lbs in the video. Not the greatest balance but he can move people that's for sure. If he could develop and keep his weight below 330 I see no reason why he couldn't grow into a RT for us. With his weight in check he might be more agile than Schwartz. I personally think RG and let him be at 335 or a little more.
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Also need to be careful on the whole past-production/future performance thing. A lot of OL's strength comes from their legs and this guy hasn't played since his knee injury. Played in one game (vs. North Texas) since the Nat'l Championship games vs. Alabama in Jan. 2012. He shouldn't be "plan A" for any position in my opinion. *edit* pred, I usually like what you post but this part: Quote:
With his weight in check he might be more agile than Schwartz.
hard for me to understand what you are basing that off of.
Last edited by clevesteve; 12/27/13 04:21 PM.
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Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency. KFFL
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I'd be shocked if Alex signs a long term deal here. That may be just me however.
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Not surprised. I'm sure he won't be either.
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we can only hope. Pettine and the FO have to get mack and ward to resign here long term. we don't need even more holes on this team. i'm sick of always having to build our team the hard way every. single. season.
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Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
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Even if they have the cap room no way does Banner tag Mack at 9 mil. Ward would be much cheaper to tag.
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Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped. Hank Fraley was better than Mack in that first season he came over from the Eagles. I guess depends on what centers will be available in FA. I just don't think Mack's particularly special at all. He's not a great run blocker and he isn't that great of a pass blocker either. The interior of our O-Line is pretty weak. More or less an average starter, but he does manage to consistently stay on the field, and that is something. I read somewhere that he's good getting up field and making blocks, unfortunately he must have had very rare chances doing that this year, may be on reverses or something. I guess he moves well.....
TJ Ward, on the other hand, I like a lot. He does have some injury issues, but otherwise, he's a better overall player than Mack IMO.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why?
A Franchise tag applies to one year only, and we have $40 million in cap room available for next year. If we spend $10 million to secure Mack's services for the year, then we still have more money available than most teams do. We could then work on a long term deal, with almost absolute exclusivity. It would also allow time for Mack to get to know the new coaches, and make a determination as to whether or not he thinks that they can lead this team to a Super Bowl.
There is very little risk if we tag Mack.
Besides, with as many draft picks as we have, I would be stunned if we sign more than 2-3 name free agents, and a handful of backups/filler types. That's not going to count for $30 million in cap space.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why not? Unless our front office wants to be big spenders in free agency I don't see the problem with tagging Mack. We're probably going to be releasing guys like Bess, Weeden and Little too.
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Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
So basically, the guy reports that Mack "could" be franchised, something we already knew "could" happen, right? He doesn't even present this info with the common, "undisclosed sources say" part. Meaning this is simply speculation on his part... which makes it no more important to me than if you or I were speculating on these possibilities. I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware. This info likely comes from a tweet, there is no official news story to look into. So this news says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know. It proves nothing. It's ESPN at it's finest.
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Quote:
Quote:
Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware.
I can say I didn't know. When did they just lump them together? Makes some sense though.
If the info I checked is correct, the OL tag is 11.2 this year.
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I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped.
If you would have said that last season or any other season prior to now, I'd not have thought about arguing with you. But damn, he was just selected and played well in, the Pro Bowl.
I want them to resign him and Ward both..
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Whoever is least likely to re-sign between Mack and Ward needs to be franchised. It is not that hard.
I don't really care much for Mack. Always thought he was a little over hyped. Hank Fraley was better than Mack in that first season he came over from the Eagles. I guess depends on what centers will be available in FA. I just don't think Mack's particularly special at all. He's not a great run blocker and he isn't that great of a pass blocker either. The interior of our O-Line is pretty weak. More or less an average starter, but he does manage to consistently stay on the field, and that is something. I read somewhere that he's good getting up field and making blocks, unfortunately he must have had very rare chances doing that this year, may be on reverses or something. I guess he moves well.....
TJ Ward, on the other hand, I like a lot. He does have some injury issues, but otherwise, he's a better overall player than Mack IMO.
Agreed. The Brown's would be better off with a free agent or Rookie at center then a PO'd Mack at center that can't run block. Also, IMO Mack causes many pre snap OL penalties, killing drives.
Besides our defense is great. Ward is a big part of that. Our offense basiclly needs overhauled, so including a new center fits in that schema.
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i dunno if i agree with the run blocking part.
thomas and mack proved they have some really good push at the LOS. unfortunately, they are only 2 in the 5 needed for good run blocking. our G's and the RT suck at that. period. maybe if we upgrade the pieces around Thomas and Mack, we can start seeing some improvement.
case in point. the 4 game win streak in 2009. that o line run blocking was straight up nasty, and mack was apart of that. our Guards were straight up raping and pillaging the LOS and at the second level.
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Resign Ward.. I liked his interview from the pro bowl talking about the new coach it was all "we" and "us"... sounded like he plans on being here as long as the FO treats him fairly...
I'd resign Mack too and if he won't resign, then franchise him and hope we show enough improvement next year that it encourages him to stick around and sign a long term deal.. and if he won't sign a long term deal, at least you have put off filling that hole for another year..... If we can fill 3 or 4 big holes this year, it won't hurt so much to have to fill the center spot next year... right now we have a bunch of needs to fill in round 2-4... would hate to create another one..
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Quote:
Quote:
Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.
KFFL
So basically, the guy reports that Mack "could" be franchised, something we already knew "could" happen, right? He doesn't even present this info with the common, "undisclosed sources say" part. Meaning this is simply speculation on his part... which makes it no more important to me than if you or I were speculating on these possibilities. I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware. This info likely comes from a tweet, there is no official news story to look into. So this news says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know. It proves nothing. It's ESPN at it's finest.
Actually, that KFFL report is taken out of context.
Pat uses 'could' in the sense that the option is available to us, not in the sense that we are likely to do so.
The full sentence in his ESPN report is here and all he was saying is that they option is available, but it would mean a $9 million cap cost (yes, he IS aware of cap rules).
Whomever posted it to KFFL, however, took it upon themselves to jazz up the headline... one of the reasons that I have always disliked KFFL. They don't actually report anything, they are simply a source aggregation point, but they do tend to play the tabloid game with article titles.
Pat Mc's full report:
2014 Free agents: C Alex Mack, Gs Shawn Lauvao and Oniel Cousins
The good: Alex Mack had a strong season and went to the Pro Bowl.
Mack
The bad: Nobody knows where Mack will play in 2014. He was drafted by the Browns and has known nothing but losing and change since he joined the team. It only seems logical that he will test the free agent market. There are glaring needs at guard, where the Browns have John Greco and Jason Pinkston but hardly seem committed to either (even though they signed Greco to a contract extension a year ago). Lauvao did not have a good season, but it seems like he could be a better player than he’s shown. Regardless, he’ll do it with another team as the Browns probably will not bring him back.
The money: No decisions will be based on money. Greco has the highest salary cap figure at $2.43 million.
Draft priority: The real priority should be to re-sign Mack. The Browns could franchise him, but that might mean a $9 million cap cost. That’s something the team can afford, but not something Joe Banner has indicated he believes in doing for a center. Re-signing Mack means keeping some stability on the line, keeping a smart player with savvy in calling protections, and avoiding creating a hole that need not exist. Not keeping Mack adds another position to the list of needs, and if Mack is not back it’s conceivable the Browns could have three new starters on the interior of the line in 2014.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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i dunno if i agree with the run blocking part.
thomas and mack proved they have some really good push at the LOS. unfortunately, they are only 2 in the 5 needed for good run blocking. our G's and the RT suck at that. period. maybe if we upgrade the pieces around Thomas and Mack, we can start seeing some improvement.
case in point. the 4 game win streak in 2009. that o line run blocking was straight up nasty, and mack was apart of that. our Guards were straight up raping and pillaging the LOS and at the second level.
Well ok 6 years ago maybe. The truth is the oline needs overhauled less Thomas and maybe Mack. Replacing Mack isn't going to upset the apple cart, because the cart is already upside down, missing wheels, and apples are rotting in the road. 
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The price tag to franchise Mack is just too high, LT money,
Didn't they add some sort of "secondary" franchise-type clause in the new CBA?
We need some way to nail him down for at least another year, IMO no way Banner pays that kind of money for a center. I don't think I would, either.
Replacing Mack, likely with Greco, will likely be a bit of a downgrade in an already problem area. OL has to be solid to work in the new QB, we keep giving up 50 sacks a year it won't matter which QB we draft.
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Yeah doesnt the nfl consider an o-line player a o-line player. So if u tag a center he gets paid like a left tackle? Can't see banner doing that.
Why not? Unless our front office wants to be big spenders in free agency I don't see the problem with tagging Mack. We're probably going to be releasing guys like Bess, Weeden and Little too.
According to this http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/cap-hit/2014/ that would result in a net cap hit of $1.2 million.
Releasing Campbell would add $3.25 million in space.
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If you would have said that last season or any other season prior to now, I'd not have thought about arguing with you. But damn, he was just selected and played well in, the Pro Bowl.
He's been selected to probowl before. That's not his first, I know that. But just cause the guy's selected doesn't mean he's that good. Plenty of overrated players in the probowl. Heck, I voted for him to be in the probowl (as I did for most of our players, lol)
May be it's just me, I just never found him very good, he's not that good at picking up interior blitzing LBs who come delayed, and while he's athletic, I just don't think he's a road grader at all when we're trying to run the ball up the middle.
Doesn't impress me that much. Just a big name. Is he better than Jeff Faine was for us? I guess. But as I said, nothing special IMO. Def not worthy of the franchise tag.
And man it pissed me off when he snapped that ball over Weeden's head near the endzone and caused that safety. (which was actually a heads up play by Weeden, props to him for kicking that ball out of the endzone, anything but letting the defense jump on the ball)
IMO his biggest strength is probably his toughness and durability. He doesn't miss games.
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And man it pissed me off when he snapped that ball over Weeden's head near the endzone and caused that safety
One messed up snap out of how many? LOL Come on man, I don't know of anyone that's perfect 100% of the time.
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IMO his biggest strength is probably his toughness and durability. He doesn't miss games.
That's pretty big no? He's durable, dependable, tough as nails, doesn't miss games and doesn't make a ton of mistakes. That's pretty important.
Tell ya what, using your grading curve, I'd have never made it out of high school let alone college 
Oh and yeah, you were right, he was selected to the PB in 2010,, I forgot about that.
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I'm not even sure Thomas should have been in some of his pro bowls. Highly doubt anyone will factor Mack's 2 when making decisions...
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I'll openly admit to not being very knowledgeable in grading OL... but I would have to say it's pretty hard to grade Mack since he has been sandwiched between fairly poor OG play most of his time here and the OL is the one unit that probably requires more consistent playing time together than any other.
I'm fairly confidant that he is an above average player so if we have to overpay him for a year to avoid creating another hole to fill... as long as that doesn't prevent us from signing somebody else that might have more of an impact, I'm not sure why anybody would be against it.
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Yeah, we have $40 in cap room this off-season, and only 2 free agents of note in Mack and Ward.
Other than them we have Billy Cundiff, O'Neil Cousins, Shaun Lauvao, and Willis McGahee as free agents. No absolutely necessary pieces there.
We have 10 draft picks. Last year the highest draft pool was just under $8 million for year one. Let's assume that $8 million is the number there. That lowers our available cap space to $32 million.
If we sign Mack to a 1 year deal worth $11 million (est) that leaves us $21 million to work with as far as free agents go. With as many draft picks as we have, we aren't going to go sign a billion free agents. Let's say we do as last year, and sign 2 players to contracts worth approx $8 million in year one. (or throughout their contracts as we did with Kruger and Bryant) That would leave us $5 million for minor deals. (which we are likely to see few of)
If we need room, we can cut Jason Campbell and pick up $3 million in salary, plus $250K in a March roster bonus.
Quentin Groves is worth another $1 million next year. If he doesn't fit, he could be used to gain cap space.
D'Qwell Jackson could also be cut/moved if the team does not feel that he is worth his deal. (or they could redo his deal) He has a $4 million roster bonus due in March.
Rubin is also a $6.6 million player, plus a $300K workout bonus. This is the last year of his deal, and if we wanted to clear max room, we could cut him.
Those are the bigger numbers, as far as I can tell. We have a ton of young players we could cut to gain small amounts of cap space.
Weeden signed a 4 year deal as a rookie, with the 1st 3 years guaranteed, as is $920K of his 4th season. He received a $4.3 signing bonus. His salary for this year is fully guaranteed, so it might make sense to keep him as the 3rd string QB. Cutting him would cost us $4,12 million, and keeping him on the roster would cost us $2.2 million.
I would expect that the Browns might try to dispute Bess' deal and void his bonuses and guarantees, given his behavior. I know that his deal included $5.75 million in guarantees, but I am not sure how it is structured. If it was divided equally, as might be expected, then he would have $4.3 million to count against the cap, with his salary of $3.1 million deducted from that amount. (as cap cost) So cutting him would cost us $4.3 million, and keeping him would cost us $3.1 million. I don't see $1 million as a breaking point in either direction, but I do expect the Browns to dispute his contract.
Overall though, I don't expect us to make any huge moves with out more expensive players. Maybe DQ or Rubin might be asked to take a pay cut if we need space to sign someone. (like Ward, or a 3rd name free agent .... or a big name)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Releasing Campbell would add $3.25 million in space.
Bye Jason!! Hope your ribs feel better...
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I'll openly admit to not being very knowledgeable in grading OL... but I would have to say it's pretty hard to grade Mack since he has been sandwiched between fairly poor OG play most of his time here and the OL is the one unit that probably requires more consistent playing time together than any other.
But that's just it. Four of the five played together last year (who started the season this year) and the fifth joined midway. Injuries happen in the NFL, sure it would be nice to have an O-Line that's played together season after season, but realistically that just doesn't normally happen.
Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
I get that meshing is key, but it's hard to beat out the amount of time last year's O-Line put in together IMO. Joe Thomas, Greco (who's consistently been our LG because Pinkston got a heart condition), Mack, Lavao, Schwartz. First game we sucked with Cousins really playing bad, but how many games did he play?
And Mack should be boosting the play of Greco and Lavao. I just don't see it. He's a FA, and seeing that he's been to two probowls, this year being one, he'll probably command big money. I say, no! LOL
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Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
Are you sure this wasn't a Madden franchise, or a dream that you had? 
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Heck, our best O-Line after coming back had two brand new guys on it and Ryan Tucker moving from RT to RG (after being suspended for the beginning of the season). Joe Thomas (rookie LT), Steve Hutchinson (LG, and new to the team), Hank Fraley (new to the team, came right at the end of training camp), Ryan Tucker (missed the first couple games because he took steroids and moved from RT to RG, so Kevin Schaffer and Hank Fraley never played beside him), and Kevin Schaffer (who changed positions on the line).
Are you sure this wasn't a Madden franchise, or a dream that you had?
Haha, Steve McKinney or something like that. The one with the neck injury
EDIT: Seth McKinney. I got the "S" at the beginning of the name right at least. Sure woulda been nice to have Hutchinson on that team though, lol. I remember wanting him in FA when he left the Seahawks or Vikings and got that giant contract......
Hold on though. Eric Steinbach, was he the LG on that team? And RG was Seth McKinney until Tucker took over?
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 01/28/14 02:15 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293 |
Browns should have Mack/Ward sit down with Pettine and let him try to sell his viewpoints and philosophy and how he's going to turn things around.
Apparently it was good enough to wow our FO.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Well, it is interesting to see that we all have different opinions on these guys.
Personally, I think Mack is very good. Here is why:
--He is strong enough to handle the big NTs in the this league, including Ngata in Baltimore.
--He is extremely smart. He makes great line calls. Rarely do you see guys run in free against our OL, This is a huge asset.
--He can block on the second level. Think about that screen pass where Little gained all those yards. Mack and Joe T. were well down field paving the way.
--His durability is outstanding. As mentioned, he's never missed a game.
I think we need to keep this guy. Not sure it will happen, but he does impress me and our OL will suffer if he leaves.
On the other hand, I could care less if we let Ward walk. Very overrated. Inconsistent tackler and poor in coverage. He's okay, but I would not pay him top safety money.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
just some notes on what I have read.
1. our OL is a lot better than most of you apparently think. Not a stat guy especially for OL but that site most are gaga about pff?? Final 2013 rating had us at #5 (Bengals were #2) Steelers and Ravens dragged behind.
2. I doubt Banner would consider the tag...yes we have the one year room but it would damage all future negotiations...agents would be drooling for us to do that.
3. If Mack leaves - and if he doesn't want to be here then I really don't care, let him go. Greco would be our starting Center.
4. We could draft a center or guard high to start.
5. Hard to convince him now considering we don't have an OC or a system.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
3. If Mack leaves - and if he doesn't want to be here then I really don't care, let him go. Greco would be our starting Center.
I am shocked at this sentiment with both Mack and Ward. We have top quality players, we need to keep them. Any player we bring in to replace them will be worse. We do not need more holes to fill.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
Browns should have Mack/Ward sit down with Pettine and let him try to sell his viewpoints and philosophy and how he's going to turn things around.
Apparently it was good enough to wow our FO.
It would be the same old news/rhetoric that they've heard from the previous regimes. Besides, I am sure Pettine has addressed the entire team with a similar "I think of things like this..." and "I will do that, this way, this way that way" talk. At this point, it boils down to likely two things. Will/passion to continue to be a Brown on a failing team and learn another system, and the $.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267 |
Just let Mack go already. Hes too expensive. Let Greco play center he wasn't much at guard so maybe he's better at center .Plan B, check the waiver wire. The next Oniel Cousins is there at bargain prices. What could go wrong?
Everyone agrees the best way to develop a franchise QB is to challenge him. Anybody can play QB on on the team with good blockers and WRs that catch the ball. We need a QB forged in adversity.What better way to mental toughness/ illness than to operate behind a waiver wire line and then bounce the ball off Little or Bess. This goes for our next RB too.Good RBs dodge defenders and carry tacklers down the field they don't need no stinkin help from expensive centers.
All the mocks have us taking a QB at 4 so lets save the cap space until the next Payton Manning shows up.
When I'm watching football with my ever increasing Steeler fan friends I love to rub their noses in all the cap space we have.
Trust me, follow this plan and the Pettine Zoo will go wild.
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