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Quote:
J/C Ytown
I have never in my life seen such nonsensical crap.
Youpeople who know nothing about oline play,that would be 99% of you,should keep your mouth shut.
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
Nothing else needs to ve said.
I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Legend
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I think we've seen posts as angry completely sober.
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Quote:
I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
Don't sweat it, when I read your post, I figured that was the case. Looked like it was typed via cellphone, and just the way it was written. It was very..... blunt
At least we know how you really feel about the idea of losing Mack
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 01/30/14 06:41 PM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Quote:
Quote:
I have to apologize for being a jerk.
I went searching for the cure for cabin fever,and instead found the instant a-hole in a bottle mixture.
Moonshine is said to cure whatever ails you,but the side effects might just kill you.
Don't sweat it, when I read your post, I figured that was the case. Looked like it was typed via cellphone, and just the way it was written. It was very..... blunt
At least we know how you really feel about the idea of losing Mack
LOL.. ok, but based on what he said...
Quote:
Mack is a very good center.Mack is not worth thr francjhise tag.
I'm not sure I do know how he feels.. he's very good but not worth the franchise tag... so he's somewhere in the gray area.. and if we can't meet in the middle we should let Mack walk? Where is that point?
yebat' Putin
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I'm not sure I do know how he feels.. he's very good but not worth the franchise tag... so he's somewhere in the gray area.. and if we can't meet in the middle we should let Mack walk? Where is that point?
Solid point, I should have said, "At least we know how you feel about the people criticizing Mack's play" lol
What I got from it is that he wants to pay him like a top center, but not like a top tackle.........
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The best thing for the Browns would be to work out a deal w/Mack, thereby avoiding losing him or tagging him.
Not sure how confident I am in that happening, though.
I think Mack wanted out before this year. This past season probably did little to change his mind.
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Legend
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Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I would like to keep Mack,but not for top LT money.
No center who has ever played in the NFL is worth top LT money.It's unfortunate for guards and centers to have their franchise worth lumped in with LTs,but it is what it is.
The Browns are in a precarious position in regards to fan perception,they may very well feel as tho they have to keep Mack to appease the fans.If they do tag him they better be working very,very hard on getting a long term deal done.It's just bad business otherwise.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
The best thing for the Browns would be to work out a deal w/Mack, thereby avoiding losing him or tagging him.
Not sure how confident I am in that happening, though.
I think Mack wanted out before this year. This past season probably did little to change his mind.
I agree with the later two points. I'm not sure that I buy into the first one though. Mack may be a very good center, but there were lesser centers playing in the playoffs. You could replace him without harming your team very much.
If it comes to the point where we're looking at a center being a crucial cog in our team mechanics, we're in more trouble than we'd like to admit.
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Ok, I did a quick search and I don't know how reliable this information is... but in 2013 the cap hit for the top 10 centers was between $4.5 and $6.5 million... Mack is already 7th at just over $5 million.. So it doesn't appear that he is grossly underpaid now... So he is already up there with the other top centers in the NFL.. of course according to this site, Mangold is a curve breaker at $9.1 million but he appears to be an anomaly (is that because he was tagged?)... If Mack gets a deal worth $6.5 million a year he would be the second highest paid center in the NFL.. and from what I've read from most people, something in the $6-$6.5 million range isn't out of the question... web page
yebat' Putin
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Its not my job to worry about cap numbers unless I'm playing 2k14 and want to sign Lebron.
If you feel like you can get the same results from someone else. Fine. If not bring him back.
Same goes with TJ.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
#gmstrong
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I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
yebat' Putin
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I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
I think that is what many of us fear. He knows he can likely get the same money on the open market. So, it will really come down to where he wants to play and many of us fear that isn't here.
I expect him to get Andy Levitre $$ in FA (and I would offer him this contract realizing that some of it is funny money. the expected value will be around $7mil/year):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/titans/2013/03/12/tennessee-titans-andy-levitre/1982981/
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't disagree with that.. and if the Browns offer to make him the second highest paid center in the NFL and he leaves, then we will know it wasn't all about the money. Because while it is possible that somebody would offer him more than that, it's not likely to be much more than that.
I think that is what many of us fear. He knows he can likely get the same money on the open market. So, it will really come down to where he wants to play and many of us fear that isn't here.
I expect him to get Andy Levitre $$ in FA (and I would offer him this contract realizing that some of it is funny money. the expected value will be around $7mil/year):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/titans/2013/03/12/tennessee-titans-andy-levitre/1982981/
He can't possibly get that kind of money,, he's not that good according to some
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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jc
I don't think you can compare old contracts to one being done now in todays NFL to much. The one done now if the players are simply same level will always be more, and likely a lot more. So old contracts busted the ceiling and newer ones have to top that older one.
So while Mack may or may not be worth it (I think he is) given that he's negotiating a contract now it will end up being more than any other past contract for centers. I see 8 million a year for 4. I see them aiming for Mangold money, but having to setle for a little less.
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I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
For me, if the team is paying him $7/mil per year, they're over paying him. He may want more, but he's a center. He has gotten about $3/mil per year over the length of his expiring contract. You're willing to give him more than double his pay?  He's a freaking center.
Sure, it's great to have a top notch one, but I write it again, if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
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He can't possibly get that kind of money,, he's not that good according to some
He isn't playing LG either.
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Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't mind signing Mack for $7mil/year to a longer range deal. The issue is that if he doesn't want to sign it, then our only other recourse is the franchise tag, which is over $10mil/year.
For me, if the team is paying him $7/mil per year, they're over paying him. He may want more, but he's a center. He has gotten about $3/mil per year over the length of his expiring contract. You're willing to give him more than double his pay? He's a freaking center.
Sure, it's great to have a top notch one, but I write it again, if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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if you're team's ability to succeed is resting on the center, you've got some serious problems.
having decent center play is a lot like having a decent kicker.. nobody thinks about it until you don't have one. Good OL play requires 5 individuals to play in unison and be familiar with each other to the point that the level of play is greater than the sum of the parts.. it only takes one really poor link to make an entire OL look bad and we've seen that before. So you aren't going to win games because of your center, but you can lose games because of your center.
yebat' Putin
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jc
here is what I know.... The wheels on the bus go round and round.
before we drafted Thomas we had a terrible OL. Everyone was livid on this board that we were not investing in OL. the mantra for years and years around here was:
"games are won in the trenches"
now that we have great/above average OL play... everyone wants talent at the skill positions and trade out high quality OL for average at best so we can invest more in the skill players.
from what I have seen... the OL is the more important part of the offense next to the QB.
we can find skill players up and down the street. people constantly find gems in that are UDFA/late round picks.
teams that struggle the most on O are the teams without a good OL.
There may be a few teams that don't struggle but they would be 10x better if their QB wasn't getting killed by a high number of sacks/hits/fast pressure all season.
jmho
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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funny way of putting it (the wheels thing) but I agree with you..
We have a pretty far about average center and I think we need to keep him and pay him accordingly.
As always, If we can find an upgrade, I'm good with that. it's just that that won't be a very easy task.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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thank you  I agree that mack is really good and we would be hard pressed to find any FA OL avail better than him or players in the draft. I was referring to the overall line play that is above average. if we pull him out of the mix we are average to mediocre at best.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000316567/article/2014-nfl-free-agents-position
Code:
Centers
Joe Berger, Minnesota Vikings
Ryan Cook, Dallas Cowboys
Brian De La Puente, New Orleans Saints
Evan Dietrich-Smith, Green Bay Packers
Dylan Gandy, Detroit Lions
Roberto Garza, Chicago Bears
Jonathan Goodwin, San Francisco 49ers
Andre Gurode, Oakland Raiders
Joe Hawley, Atlanta Falcons
Dan Koppen, Denver Broncos
Ted Larsen, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Alex Mack, Cleveland Browns
Kevin Matthews, Tennessee Titans
Mike McGlynn, Indianapolis Colts
Brad Meester, Jacksonville Jaguars
Dominic Raiola, Detroit Lions
Chris Spencer, Tennessee Titans
Rob Turner, Tennessee Titans
Steve Vallos, Denver Broncos
Fernando Velasco, Pittsburgh Steelers
Cody Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers
J.D. Walton, Washington Redskins
Ryan Wendell, New England Patriots
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...we would be hard pressed to find any FA OL avail better than him ...
...and at a cheaper price. May as well pay Mack and go with the CONTINUITY. 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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having decent center play is a lot like having a decent kicker.. nobody thinks about it until you don't have one. Good OL play requires 5 individuals to play in unison and be familiar with each other to the point that the level of play is greater than the sum of the parts.. it only takes one really poor link to make an entire OL look bad and we've seen that before. So you aren't going to win games because of your center, but you can lose games because of your center.
Then, you would be in favor of just drafting a whole OL from college then?
Come on now. That's crap. If they can play the position, then they can play the position. Maybe they can be coached to improve their techniques, but if they've played the position, then they can play it.
Why would any team then take on an OL from another team, via trade or free agency? They would be adding a piece that hadn't worked with their OLs.
All this OL familiarity is just wrong thinking. It applies more with receivers and their QBs, but not really even that much. If that's the case, then backup QBs shouldn't be able to come in and have huge games (re: Kelly Holcomb, Matt Flynn, et al). If you know how to play, you know how to play.
Refinements and adjustments can be made, but that's about all that any NFL player should need. If it takes major effort to correct the player's mind for the game or adjustments for physical limitations, then it's already a player that shouldn't be in the game.
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It's not nearly as black and white as you are making it appear. Come on......you are smarter than that.
Of course, guys can fit in. Of course, it's about talent. However, to ignore the benefits of continuity on the OL is laughable. More than any other unit, the OL depends on cohesion. They must work together in unison. Their footwork has to be the same. Their timing the same. If one guy opens up to early while area blocking, the entire line is exposed. That hold true for when guys either gap block or pull. They must be cohesive. Again, no other unit needs cohesion more than the OL. That isn't some made up argument. It is a fact.
I am also not sure why so many people are ignoring the line calls that Mack has made???? The guy is very, very intelligent. Rarely do you see gaping holes in our line. We have guys get beat, but we aren't getting beat due to bad line calls.
Personally, I have a feeling that Mack won't be here next year. And I think our team will be worse because of it. In my mind, we will suffer way, way more if we lose Mack than if we lose Ward. The sad thing is that it's probably going to shake out that way. Mack will walk and we will overpay for Ward.
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Legend
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Double digit losses in every one of Mack's seasons.
Hell, double digit losses in all but one of JT's.
Manning going to the Super Bowl with a back up at LT.
For the love of God, please just find a QB.
I can't wait until we have a QB so guys like Mack can go back to being the interchangeable parts they are on every other team except the Browns.
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I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
What is the alternative? Say we decide to not pay him what he wants? Is there a guy we can get in FA or in the draft that would be an upgrade?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000316567/article/2014-nfl-free-agents-position
Code:
Centers
Joe Berger, Minnesota Vikings
Ryan Cook, Dallas Cowboys
Brian De La Puente, New Orleans Saints
Evan Dietrich-Smith, Green Bay Packers
Dylan Gandy, Detroit Lions
Roberto Garza, Chicago Bears
Jonathan Goodwin, San Francisco 49ers
Andre Gurode, Oakland Raiders
Joe Hawley, Atlanta Falcons
Dan Koppen, Denver Broncos
Ted Larsen, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Alex Mack, Cleveland Browns
Kevin Matthews, Tennessee Titans
Mike McGlynn, Indianapolis Colts
Brad Meester, Jacksonville Jaguars
Dominic Raiola, Detroit Lions
Chris Spencer, Tennessee Titans
Rob Turner, Tennessee Titans
Steve Vallos, Denver Broncos
Fernando Velasco, Pittsburgh Steelers
Cody Wallace, Pittsburgh Steelers
J.D. Walton, Washington Redskins
Ryan Wendell, New England Patriots
Thanks for the list.. Are you saying that any of those guys would be better than Mack, or are you saying they'd be cheaper or both?
Honestly, any one of them that might be considered on Macks level or close are going to cost as much or close to Mack,,
If, from that bunch, you can improve the position and lower costs, I got no issue with it. But the laws of economics don't work that way.
So, narrow it down for me, tell me who is better than Mack and can be gotten for less than Mack!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I wasn't saying we don't need a qb. However, if you think a good qb can play behind a poor offensive line, you are mistaken.
I know you know we need a QB.
And you know I know even a good QB needs a good line.
My point is we don't need Alex Mack to be a good team.
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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we don't know for sure what's going to happen yet. some just seem to get their panties in a wad no matter what the issue.
we may have all of the money in the world right now but it doesn't take long at all to be down to the wire if you're not careful signing all of those contracts.
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Legend
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Quote:
i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
Well said, I don't care how they do it. Just win.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think Mack and Ward are very valuable free agents that are both must sign players. Great teams must be strong up the middle. It would be a shame if these 2 yound still developing players leave after their first contract. Most players play their best football between their 4th and 8th year in the NFL. I would hate to lose these 2 and start over again at these positions up the middle on offense and defense.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
If anything Swish, I thought it was the opposite. Browns, since their return, were always battling cap with little to show on the field. Both Mangini and Holmgren made a huge effort to get cap under control. Holmgren took it a step further incorporating youth.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,489 Likes: 723 |
i'm not saying we need to be battling the cap, but isn't it odd that the times we were in cap trouble, or signing FA's, we had 2 of our best seasons since 99? even a playoff appearance.
bugs, i'm happy we are great in the cap area. we need to continue that, but that being said, it's pointless to be at the top of the NFL in cap space, but in the basement in everything else, ya know, like wins and titles.
signing players long term will benefit us. mack we aren't sure about, but we have a top 5 safety that wants to stay here. give him the contract, PAY DA MAN. we gave kruger and bryant long term contracts, with zero results in the w-l column, but the talent we have will show once we have good QB play.
but we have to KEEP the talent here to see that day.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222 |
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i'll say this again,
let's not be cheap, please. i'm tired of wiining the "great cap" award, the "moral victory" award, and the "# of draft picks" award. how about the Division Title award? the wild card weekend victory?
lets pay our talent long term, fill in the other holes. i'm tired of creating more holes, then go around and blame the FO for not filling all the holes in one off-season.
I agree with all of that. People are acting like the money's coming out of their own pockets. We have a billionaire owner and the most cap space in the league. How on earth can anyone be against paying a pro bowler who hasn't missed a snap since joining the team?
My only concern with overpaying a guy is the precedent it sets...regardless of how much cap space we have left.
That said...I'd like us to re-sign Mack and Ward...even tho I think Ward is overrated.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,029 Likes: 14
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,029 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
i'm not saying we need to be battling the cap, but isn't it odd that the times we were in cap trouble, or signing FA's, we had 2 of our best seasons since 99? even a playoff appearance.
Don't forget the seasons following those two good. Browns dumped to get back in good grace with cap.
I am a big fan of control cap it allows for long term success. I am also in favor of getting a top player or two. Totally against FA RB and WR. My biggest concern is why did the prior team give way. Odds of success is not good too.
Mack has a good opportunity to get serious coin. In the new age because of 3-4 defense on the rise, center is becoming a position of need. As we have seen, center position in the draft has been lacking.
Ward, I have a hard time calling. I am not sure he can't be easily replaced based on the way Cleveland is building their defense. They are striving to assemble a top flight front 7. With that said, do they need to invest in a top strong safety? I am a bit old school too where safeties were not a main stay in most defenses.
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