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I'm guessing you can reconcile those cumulative stats with our record by saying that it's not an even contribution from each QB.
Ex. Weeden was chucking the ball around, scoring TDs and racking up yardage, but was giving the ball away like crazy, while Campbell wasn't turning the ball over because he really wasn't moving it at all. If something like that was going on, you'd have one QB that was getting yards and points, but turning the ball over, and another QB that was taking care of the ball, but not moving all that much. Never the two together.
or
We have no run game.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Here too? Really?  When you pass more, you have quantitavely better numbers, but it does not have to equate to better quality/efficiency. It's really not rocket science and yes, Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency. I just unfolded an argument I made in my first post. What was your argument again that goes beyond my sig?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency.
Care to prove that? I'll be curious to see how ineffective guys like Emmit Smith, LT, and Turner were.
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Do you consider Rivers to be a top 5 QB in the NFL over the past, say, 5 seasons? Me neither, but he is top 5, if not top 3 by accumulative stats, TDs and total passing yds. Why do I even respond?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Quote:
Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency.
Care to prove that? I'll be curious to see how ineffective guys like Emmit Smith, LT, and Turner were.
sorry but in regards to LT, you're completely wrong.
since Feb 2007, when Norv took over, LT stats in rushing and passing went down.
http://www.nfl.com/player/ladainiantomlinson/2504778/careerstats
LT best stats were with our beloved Marty.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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What? You said this: Quote:
Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency.
I looked at that comment and began to wonder, so I asked you this:
Quote:
Care to prove that? I'll be curious to see how ineffective guys like Emmit Smith, LT, and Turner were.
Your answer is this????
Quote:
Do you consider Rivers to be a top 5 QB in the NFL over the past, say, 5 seasons? Me neither, but he is top 5, if not top 3 by accumulative stats, TDs and total passing yds.
What does that have to do w/inflated passing stats vs. bottom line efficiency and how Emmit Smith and LT fared?
Quote:
Why do I even respond?
Because it is very, very important for you to appear to be correct.
Stop making crap up and I will stop bothering you.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency.
Care to prove that? I'll be curious to see how ineffective guys like Emmit Smith, LT, and Turner were.
sorry but in regards to LT, you're completely wrong.
since Feb 2007, when Norv took over, LT stats in rushing and passing went down.
http://www.nfl.com/player/ladainiantomlinson/2504778/careerstats
LT best stats were with our beloved Marty.
Uhmmm sorry, but I am not completely wrong. DJ said:
Quote:
"When you pass more, you have quantitavely better numbers, but it does not have to equate to better quality/efficiency. It's really not rocket science and yes, Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency."
Your stats have nothing to do w/what he said. I want to know if his offenses have always had high passing stats while ending up poor in overall efficiency. Simple question. I asked him to prove it. Maybe he can..........but again, I think it is another case of him making crap up.
Look fellas, DJ can spin all he wants, but Norv was always respected as an offensive coordinator. He wasn't a very good HC, but he was always highly regarded as a OC, and it wasn't because his bottom line efficiency was poor.
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~ Legend
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Quote:
Here too? Really?
When you pass more, you have quantitavely better numbers, but it does not have to equate to better quality/efficiency. It's really not rocket science and yes, Norv has a history full with that discrepancy, even insuccessful seasons. His accumulative pass stats are always inflated compared to the bottom line efficiency.
If you're using efficiency as yards per attempt then you are right. But the Air Coryell was never suppose be a high efficiency offense, it was meant to get your playmakers the ball down the field. I believe Bill Walsh said it best, "The Air Coryell were made for talented players and the WCO is made for average players." Now you can debate which offense is better and never find an answer. I'm saying that while his efficiency stats aren't high, they're not meant to be.
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2nd String
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I would resign TJ Ward and Alex Mack. Even if they command a lot of money they are much better than who we can get. I would also resign Billy Cundiff, Shawn Lauvao and Craig Robertson. Let everyone else walk. Cut Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell, Chris Ogbonnaya, Fozzy Whittaker, Devone Bess Greg Little With free agency several big moves would be made. According to web page we have 24 mil in cap next season which the most in the league. For reference the 6th highest team has 11 mil. We are going to be able to outbid other teams often if we want. Here is who I want to sign: QB Jay Cutler WR Eric Decker (willing to overspend if needed) Mid level signings: TE Fred Davis, WR Danario Alexander, FS Nate Allen, CB Antoine Cason, FB Greg Jones, T Bruce Campbell and RB LeGarrette Blount. Alexander and Davis would have 1 year incentive filled contacts. Both can play well but are often hurt. If any of these guys were too pricey a similar type of vet would be signed instead. I simulated the draft on http://www.first-pick.com/Default.aspx With these signings my draft would look something like this: *Traded CLE Round 1 Pick 5 to TB for Round 1 Pick 7, Round 2 Pick 7 Round 1 Pick 7 (T.B.): Hasean Clinton-Dix, FS, Alabama (A) Round 1 Pick 24: Sammy Watkins, WR, Clemson (A) Round 2 Pick 5: Cyril Richardson, OG, Baylor (B+) Round 2 Pick 7 (T.B.): Tre Mason, RB, Auburn (B) Round 3 Pick 5: Carlos Hyde, RB, Ohio State (B+) Round 3 Pick 12: A.J. McCarron, QB, Alabama (A) Round 4 Pick 5: A.J. Johnson, ILB, Tennessee (A-) Round 4 Pick 24: Ross Cockrell, CB, Duke (B) Round 5 Pick 5: DeVante Parker, WR, Louisville (B-) Round 6 Pick 5: J.C. Copeland, FB, LSU (A-) Round 7 Pick 5: Denicos Allen, OLB, Michigan State (B+) Depth Chart: QB: Jay Cutler, Brian Hoyer, AJ McCarron, (3) RB: LeGarrett Blount, Tre Mason, Carlos Hyde, Dion Lewis (4) FB: Greg Jones (1) WR: Josh Gordon, Eric Decker, Sammy Watkins, Danario Alexander, DeVante Parker, Travis Benjamin (6) TE: Jordan Cameron, Fred Davis, Gary Barnidge, (3) OL: Joe Thomas, John Greco, Alex Mack, Cyril Richardson, Mitchell Schwartz, Shawn Lauvo, Jason Pinkston, Chris Faulk, Bruce Campbell (9) DL: Desmond Bryant, Phil Taylor, Ahtyba Rubin, Billy Winn, John Hughes, Ishmaa'ily Kitchen (6) LB: Paul Kruger, D’Qwell Jackson, AJ Johnson, Jabaal Sheard, Barkevious Mingo, Craig Robertson, Quintin Groves, Tank Carder (8) CB: Joe Haden, Buster Skrine, Antoine Cason,Ross Cockrell, Leon McFadden (5) S: Hasean Clinton-Dix, TJ Ward, Tashaun Gipson, Nate Allen, Johnson Bademosi (5) K: Billy Cundiff (1) P: Spencer Lanning (1) LS: Christian Yount (1) Practice squad (7): QB Alex Tanney, HB MarQueis Gray, OL Garrett Gilkey, OLB Denicos Allen, FB JC Copeland, OLB Armonty Bryant, S Jordan Poyer
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just FYI: Gray, Poyer and Bryant are already PS-ineligible.
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Quote:
If YOU were in charge, what would you do to fix this team?
I don't think that there is a single-offseason solution.
I think that any time you look at having to "fix" a team, you have to start by looking past the current season, and perhaps the next as well.
First, you have to identify the issues. With that, you can create a shopping/Wish list - but, you're all but guaranteed to not get everything on that list, so there will always be carry over to the following year, which will again add a whole new set of items to the Wish List in addition to the things you didn't get previously. The next time around, you'll take care of more of it, but still miss out on some things.
If you ever think that you've patch all of the holes on your team, that means that you've simply stopped looking for holes.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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just FYI: Gray, Poyer and Bryant are already PS-ineligible.
Really? Dang.
I just read the practice squad rules here . I made the mistake of thinking as long as they were an unclaimed first or second year player. Good call.
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Practice Squad
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Well it always seems easy to fix, but obviously we have yet to do it. So I will give it a shot:
1. Move Schwartz to guard and Faulk to RT
2. Cut Weeds
3. Sign TJ
4. Sign a vet Wr. possession receiver
5. Draft Carr 1a
6. Draft Wr Le from USC if available
7. RB draft Kadeem Caray University of Arizona solid for five years
8. Draft ILB send Robertson to the bench
0. Sign a FA CB, not to expensive
10. Draft an LG move Greco to C
11. With the rest of the draft, BPA
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Legend
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Has Greco ever played C? I don't believe that he has.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not sure, but I know the coaching staff was giving him reps at center during camp.
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Legend
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Shurmur's staff gave Lauvao Center rep last year as well.
I don't know that I would want to see either guy at Center though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I don't think that there is a single-offseason solution.
I think that any time you look at having to "fix" a team, you have to start by looking past the current season, and perhaps the next as well.
I don't believe that. 1 offseason turnaround happen far too often in the NFL.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't think that there is a single-offseason solution.
I think that any time you look at having to "fix" a team, you have to start by looking past the current season, and perhaps the next as well.
I don't believe that. 1 offseason turnaround happen far too often in the NFL.
I don't believe that they do. Not truly.
You'll have teams have good years here and there out of nowhere (like us in 2002 or 2007), but you pretty much never see a team ascend to having sustained success in a one year turnaround , When you look closely, you'll find that it is a team that has been making that turn for several years first.
Seattle and San Fran are great examples of that. We are not on that cusp.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Draft every other position but qb in the draft, start Brandon weeden next year and you will lose all 16 games and take your pick of qb next year.
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Dawg Talker
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I would get rid of DQ. He is at best a mediocre LB.
Cut Little and Bess.
Sign a FB.
Tell Horton to shove all his worthless stats, and teach the defense that 3rd down is time to suck it up.
Get a freaking QB
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I would get rid of DQ. He is at best a mediocre LB.
Cut Little and Bess.
Sign a FB.
Tell Horton to shove all his worthless stats, and teach the defense that 3rd down is time to suck it up.
Get a freaking QB
DQ was pathetic today... Again
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
DQ was pathetic today... Again
This is the case EVERY week. I don't see why you're surprised.
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Legend
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Going to disagree w/you guys. He was one of the few guys that was actually trying. He was one of the few guys who actually did anything.
DQ had 11 tackles. 7 were solo. He also defensed one pass. The team only had 7.
The Almighty Phil Taylor had 1 tackle.
Winn had 1 tackle.
The Great TJ Ward had 3 tackles. He had 0 pass defended.
Ward also wussed out on several attempts. There was a play where Ivory came through the hole. Ward was in perfect position. He doesn't go after him hard, instead he trails the play. By now, Ivory has a full head of steam and breaks Gipson's tackle and gets by DQ. Everyone will blame the latter two guys, but it was Ward who was in that hole and he didn't even try. He jogged after Ivory all the way down the sideline. He was being dominated by blockers all game long.
I hear the FO likes him. I have backed the FO this year, but if they draft Carr and resign Ward to top 3 safety money, I be losing confidence in them---and it will be in a hurry.
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Didn't Taylor sustain an injury? I saw him walking out.. But by then, I'd pretty much lost interest in the game so I'm not sure if he came back in.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DQ is the least of our worries.
In addition to being a really good player, he's just about the only one on the team that gives a damn.
I wouldn't mind if the FO showed him and Thomas some mercy and traded them to contenders. It would suck for us, but those guys deserve it. It sucks for them they were drafted by the Browns.
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Legend
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I read Taylor has a head/neck injury.
He did leave the game before it ended, but I don't remember at what point.
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Quote:
I read Taylor has a head/neck injury.
He did leave the game before it ended, but I don't remember at what point.
Had to be at least early in the second half,, I got to a point where I was disinterested about that time.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I would get rid of DQ. He is at best a mediocre LB.
I'll start by saying I disagree, I think he is well above average... then I'll say that I think this is one of the things that frustrates me most about Browns fans.. even if he is mediocre, teams need a lot of mediocre players.. good teams are full of mediocre players.. That's why guys get a reputation playing for the old Ravens defense or somebody like that then they leave for the big money on a much worse team and all the sudden they aren't so special.. why? Because they were really mediocre they just happened to be on a great all around defense... Sorry, we aren't good enough across the board to be getting rid of average to above average players yet... at any position.
If you want to draft a good/great ILB and put him next to DQ, great, have at it... I could get behind that 100%.... You want to find our Luke Kuechly and put him next to DQ.. WONDERFUL!!!!! But if you want to replace DQ with that same ILB, then who is next to him? Robertson? Eubanks? Carder? It makes no sense.
yebat' Putin
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Other than some twisted view on stockings...  ...I find myself agreeing with you a lot. You hit the nail on the head here. Browns fans in general just don't get it. Find me one team in the league that has a first rounder starting at every position. That's what Browns fans act like when they complain about a lack of talent. And besides DQ being a very good player, he's the only leader we have on D and one of the only guys that gives a damn. I honestly feel bad for him that he has to play for this awful team.
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Quote:
Quote:
I would get rid of DQ. He is at best a mediocre LB.
Cut Little and Bess.
Sign a FB.
Tell Horton to shove all his worthless stats, and teach the defense that 3rd down is time to suck it up.
Get a freaking QB
DQ was pathetic today... Again
I'm all for upgrading any position anytime, but DQ is about the least of our problems.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DQ and whomever is the other ILB are the single biggest problem with this defense. They are non-existent on way too many plays...and horribly ineffective on others.
DQ gets no push...constantly shoots the wrong gap...is stoned/blocked by RBs...and couldn't cover me. He runs sideline to sideline? Yeah...chasing players he can't cover or catch...but he chases them alright...all day long.
He makes a lot of tackles? Yes...just as ineffectively as did Davis and Rainier. He's in the middle of the field for goodness sake...he BETTER lead the team in tackles. What a meaningless stat for the ILB in this defense!
A lot of guys played like crap yesterday...including my guy Skrine. But our ILB play has been horrible all year long and the leader in that horrible play has been the "leader" of the D himself.
He's done...it's no shame. He's been a good teammate and has been through more regime/scheme changes than is fair...but at this time, he IS in the unit that is the biggest problem in this D.
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Where the Browns are as of today is: they would pick fourth in this years draft. The top pick is still undecided. At this point I am pointed at Bridgewater or bust. Meaning make a play for Bridgewater if possible.
If he taken then go BPA.
Landing franchise quarterbacks is very hard to do. Otto Graham is the only Hall of Famer to wear a Browns jersey. If the Browns do not see one then they should build the best team they can build.
Bill Parcells won with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.
Build strong lines. Be able to run the ball and pass efficiently. Kind of like the Chiefs. Play really good defense.
The Holy Grail are Hall of Fame quarterbacks like Brady and Peyton but they do not grow on trees.
Do not reach for fools gold which is what the Browns have done.
Either look to guys like Cousins or Mallett or later round picks with guys that can be developed. Like Cousins and Mallett were picked coming out.
This draft looks to have really good OL prospects and a bunch of top receivers. There are talented runners available through free agency and the draft.
Look to sign free agents that can fill a need immediately. Use the draft to select the best players on your board at the time you select. Do not reach for need unless it is a quarterback you are completely sold on.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
DQ and whomever is the other ILB are the single biggest problem with this defense. They are non-existent on way too many plays...and horribly ineffective on others.
Our ILB play has been horrible all year long and the leader in that horrible play has been the "leader" of the D himself.
it's the scheme we run... you should read up on it before making all of these complaints.
the biggest problem is that we have 0 pass rush. if we don't get one, the rest of the D can't sustain especially playing in zone.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
DQ and whomever is the other ILB are the single biggest problem with this defense. They are non-existent on way too many plays...and horribly ineffective on others.
DQ gets no push...constantly shoots the wrong gap...is stoned/blocked by RBs...and couldn't cover me. He runs sideline to sideline? Yeah...chasing players he can't cover or catch...but he chases them alright...all day long.
He makes a lot of tackles? Yes...just as ineffectively as did Davis and Rainier. He's in the middle of the field for goodness sake...he BETTER lead the team in tackles. What a meaningless stat for the ILB in this defense!
A lot of guys played like crap yesterday...including my guy Skrine. But our ILB play has been horrible all year long and the leader in that horrible play has been the "leader" of the D himself.
He's done...it's no shame. He's been a good teammate and has been through more regime/scheme changes than is fair...but at this time, he IS in the unit that is the biggest problem in this D.
I don't disagree with a word of this. D'Qwell Jackson couldn't cover anyone coming out of the old folks home. He's not even good in zone defense. He's simply not good in coverage at all. We'd be better of throwing another safety on the field and putting Ward (who doesn't cover as well as a safety should be able to do) in his spot.
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#gmstrong
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How do you fix the team.
Fix.
What an interesting word, Fix, as if it's broken. The team still plays, it still technically works right? It can't be "broken"
But we all know it is. The team, The fanbase, the aura of the Browns is broken.
So how do you "fix" that?
I look around the league. At all the other teams that, like us, were recently in the "laughing stock" grouping.
New Orleans - Won a Super Bowl and is considered a contender every year since 07-08
Detroit - Has one of the best offenses in the lead, may be going through a coaching change soon. But still is talented
Arizona - First year of a new head coach, and they could win 10+ games. Went to a Super Bowl in 09
The common theme that all these teams have? Quarterback.
Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Kurt Warner, and yes even Carson Palmer..
Great QB play changed these teams. No one talks about the 'Aints anymore. Stafford is throwing to Megatron. And Palmer is in resurgence..
So yes. Cleveland CAN be fixed. Is a Great QB here a garenteed Super Bowl? Of course not...
Some moves I'd like to see made...
Sign a veteran Wide WR. I'm think a guy like Maclin would look nice across from Gordon...
Sign AND Draft a RB. Everybody is talking Ben Tate. I'm all for it. I ALSO use whatever the highest pick I have to to get Carlos Hyde here (and I'm not an OSU fan)
Sign/Draft the best RG/RT combo you can. That side needs to be fixed, ASAP.
Resign Mack and Ward. They've been here, they know the systems, and theres no Pro Bowl players out there that can replace them..
Cut Weeden. It's nothing personal. But the guy being on the sidelines in pads just means theres a chance he can play. And that's nothing I ever want to see again...
Find two ILBs, One to replace Roberson, and the other to EVENTUALLY replace DQ. I love the guy, but he's slow.
And then it comes down to the main change. QB.
Unless we trade up, we're not likely getting Bridgewater. He's the only guy that I KNOW I would want. Is he perfect? No of course not, but of all the QBs, he's got the least amount of "But he"s
Whatever Rookie you bring in. Please, PLEASE let him sit for at least a year. I don't care who starts. Hoyer, Cutler, Koser, anyone.. Let the rookie LEARN..
There are guys like Cousins (bad fit for the offense) and Mallett (perfect fit for the offense but scares the crap out of me) that we could go after..
But that's what it comes down to in the NFL today. If you have a QB. You can compete, if you don't, you're looking for one...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,990 Likes: 362
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,990 Likes: 362 |
Yep, the QB is absolutely the key in today's NFL. It is the one indispensable position.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
I've come to accept that Ryan Mallett could work. It's like you said, amazing how scrub franchises become contenders by adding a QB.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222 |
Quote:
Quote:
DQ and whomever is the other ILB are the single biggest problem with this defense. They are non-existent on way too many plays...and horribly ineffective on others.
Our ILB play has been horrible all year long and the leader in that horrible play has been the "leader" of the D himself.
it's the scheme we run... you should read up on it before making all of these complaints.
the biggest problem is that we have 0 pass rush. if we don't get one, the rest of the D can't sustain especially playing in zone.
I could read more about the scheme and I would STILL see the same things from BOTH ILBs that I have seen all year long.
Watch when DQ goes after the QB...it's pathetic. Teams started quick-hitting our non-existent middle when we started putting heat on their OL. It's hard to generate a pass rush when the other team quickly gets rid of the ball over the middle...or when they have absolutely nothing to worry about coming up the middle...ever.
He have young talent and young "depth" in every defensive unit except for one...and as the season has wore on, that unit has been exposed.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
JC
Season is over now, so I think we should cut Greg Little. Having one good game out of five games is not a ratio that I favor. He reminds me of State Route 225, the "hilly" section. Up and down, down and up. There hasn't been any consistency with him. That's on-field, throw in his "off-field" issues including the driving violations and etc and yeah.
What purpose does keeping him here do for us? He always finds a way to let us down or be a drive killer. I've already hung the hat up on him. Cutting him and letting Cooper or Tyms take his game time, IMO, would be a small step in helping this team and the weeding out of the garbage.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How would YOU fix the team?
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