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Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?
To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.
But it is entertaining.
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When you think of the impact on offensive production from those two spots, that's actually a fairly significant difference because the impact runs far beyond just the statistical impact on those two positions alone.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I don't disagree. But that does not equal 'untalented' or 'rebuilding'.
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Quote:
Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?
To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.
But it is entertaining.
And conversely when we win a game you tout us as having talent, then when we lose you blame the coaching staff.
But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:
LACK. OF. TALENT.
You don't have to believe it. You can remain in the minority. Professionals in the league...who get paid to write about the league...who get paid to predict the league...who make their very livings by betting on the league...point to how much talent the Browns lack by putting them at the bottom of the league.
As for me being backed into a corner, until there are facts and data which indicate we have as much talent as the rest of the league, the burden is on you to prove we have it. The data backs up the position that we are inferior in terms of talent. The results on the field prove it. You're fighting an uphill fight here, just as you're fighting an uphill fight to prove the coaches are the reason we are losing.
Our offensive line is inferior with as many as 3 guys needing to be replaced. Our skill-set guys on offense are inferior. We have one talented-but-troubled receiver in Gordon then a bunch of nobodies. We have nobodies at RB. We have one receiving TE who is a wimp in the run-game, and then a bunch of nobodies at the rest of the TE position. We need at least one ILB, and Mingo, while fast, is far from a 3-down player. He could become great but could just as easily bust. Sheard is good coming upfield but is terrible in coverage. We have solid players on the D-line but no pro-bowlers there. Ward is solid but one-dimensional, and Gipson is up-and-down. Then there's our depth, which isn't good, as there aren't any up-and-comers who are pushing for PT.
The old saying of "coaches coach and players play" is always true. It wasn't the coaches who gave up all these 4th quarter defensive melt-downs. 
Now in typical fashion, it becomes fashionable to paint my position in such a light that I am now saying we have the least talent in the NFL.  My position is that with the high draft picks we have and the cap space we'll have, we can get up to speed with the rest of the league. Should we elect to throw a bunch of those picks at Cutler, we're making a huge mistake. We keep gambling and reaching on guys who aren't worth it, from Frye to Quinn, to McCoy and Weeden...if we'll focus on building up the rest of the team by making smart picks, we'll eventually be in a position where we CAN spend picks and money on someone like Cutler.
If we were a team that had above-average NFL talent but lacked a QB, I might just be on board with sending a high pick or two to get Cutler.
Had we drafted correctly over the last decade, we very-well may have been in that position. But we're not.
Getting back to the topic of Cutler, if...IF...he could be had just for money, it would be worth going after. But it's not going to be just about money. It's going to be about draft picks as well, and this team cannot afford to give up high draft picks for a good-but-not-great QB when his contract will also limit how many top-notch free agents we sign.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?
To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.
But it is entertaining.
I think you might be selling short the importance of running back, depth at RB (neither of which we have) and your second and third WR's.
A lot of teams have all that, and 2 tight ends...
We're just not there. I don't think our OL is as horrible as people want to make it out to be, but it's also not the greatest, especially with run blocking. I have seen instances this year where they created good enough lanes for big plays that McGahee was just far too slow to get through in time.
All these good RB's in the league have that initial burst that allows them an extra half second to make their one move. Demarco Murray has that great first step that he starts every first quarter with (then of course, they decide to let Trollmo throw the ball in the 4th, but that's beside the point). McCoy, Charles, Peterson, etc... The first step of those guys is what seperates them from the guys not getting it done.
Baker showed that great first step. I don't know about his vision or breakaway speed or ability to break tackles or any of that, but I know he showed something that McGahee doesn't have anymore and Richardson never had.
I'm not saying Baker is anything, I'm just saying that's what we're missing, and that partly explains the lack of offense.
No QB, no RB, no RB2, no WR, no WR2.... That's why we struggle to light up the scoreboard.
Some of the guys we have selected with high picks aren't cutting it, and we've either depended on them or others to fill the void.
Richardon, 1st round
Weeden 1st round
Gordon, 2nd round
Little, 2nd round
Hardesty, 2nd round
McCoy, 3rd round
Robiskie, 2nd round
Massaquoi, 2nd round
Those are your skill position guys picked in any of the first 3 rounds going all the way back to the 2008 draft.
Aside from Gordon, that's awful. I understand guys picked after the third round develop and become good productive players, but I think you judge front offices on what's done in the earlier rounds. Everyone talks about how the Patriots found Brady, but even they passed on him 5 times before selecting him. It's a crapshoot. I don't believe those first few rounds are a crapshoot.
Guys who walk around in their Joe Thomas jerseys who think skill position players are a dime a dozen and the "DURR HURR GAME IS WON IN THE TRENCHES HERP DURP" are just as wrong as the people who think only the guys who get picked on fantasy teams only matter. Truth is, they all do.
The guy in the Joe Thomas jersey can say that Brady won Super Bowls without any great receivers and how they relied on good defense and running the ball.
At the same time the other guy can say that the Browns have done absolutely nothing with a franchise/best in the league left tackle over the last 6 years.
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Quote:
Quote:
Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?
To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.
But it is entertaining.
And conversely when we win a game you tout us as having talent, then when we lose you blame the coaching staff.
But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:
LACK. OF. QB.
Fixed it for you.
You can't subscribe to the notion that QB is the most important position, elevates everyone's play, elevates morale and confidence, then claim there is no talent when we don't have a QB. So which is it fence rider? Spin me an answer.
Or tell me this. What is the magic formula? What's the secret to our "talentless" team and why do we continue to be deficient in talent compared to everyone else? From FO to FO, are we just clueless?
Because that's the only explanation. That FO after FO after FO is just clueless. Does that really make any sense? Or does it make more sense that we haven't hit on that one pivotal position, QB? It's amazing how well Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's OL play. I wonder if that's just coincidence too.
I mean come on. How about a little common sense? Seriously.
I know it makes you sound smart and stuff to always claim we are talentless and rebuilding ... blah, blah, blah ... but I'm not buying what you are selling.
Am I saying we are a Super Bowl contender with the right QB? No. If I was I would be just as extreme as you. But every team, even the two that will end up in the SB this year have holes. But I guarantee you the two representations will also have franchise QBs.
I'm just asking for a little common sense and not this need to sound smart. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim this team lacks talent and is rebuilding. If you want to claim we don't have a franchise QB, scream it to your heart's content.
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The common sense is an easy concept in this case.
Look at all of the players Toad listed, then tell me where any of them went on to do great in the NFL?
Our drafts have sucked in the 1st and 2nd rounds. As a result, we have very little in the way of play makers. It's really easy to see.
To have a running game, not only do you need a RB, but you also need run blocking that is at least average.
To have a vertical passing game, you need an OL who can protect your QB. Especially your QB's blind side. That much we do have.
You use Peyton Manning and Tom Brady as an example of making their OL's look good. You could add drew Brees. But where are you going to find that caliber of a QB? In Jay cutler? Are you kidding me? You're speaking about QB's in a much higher level than Jay Cutler here. Apples to oranges.
For an injury plagued guy like Cutler to stay healthy, you WILL need an OL that can protect him. He won't "make them look better". And Cutler has a great running game in Chicago. We don't.
This team needs a big infusion of talent. That's not a secret accept to those in denial. Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.
Mediocrity isn't the goal here. but some seem to advocate it. Probably more out of desperation and a willingness to believe rather than on purpose.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.
I disagree. In the NFL today, all that matters is getting to the playoffs. From there, whatever QB that gets crazy hot seems to win whether it's Flacco, Kaepernick, heck Mark Sanchez won games (and he played really well in some of those).
The talent level is so even now that you just need to get your playoff spot, then take your chances. That is why I wouldn't mind Cutler. He is definitely good enough to get hot for 4 games in the playoffs.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:
LACK. OF. TALENT.
You don't have to believe it. You can remain in the minority. Professionals in the league...who get paid to write about the league...who get paid to predict the league...who make their very livings by betting on the league...point to how much talent the Browns lack by putting them at the bottom of the league.
I call BS on this too.
Those guys NEVER get the "surprise" teams, both winners and loser, right. They go on history and perception, they have little to no clue, they're weather vanes. I could post any random preseason power ranking and it would look stupid on about half the teams on it. That's the AVG prognostication skill of a monkey throwing darts. It's really not a good argument and easy to dismantle.
As for talent level: I'd bet we have an AVG number of positively graded players by a site like PFF outside the QB position. Like the site or not, but they at least provide an objective and equal grading style for all 32 teams without bias, so I'd love to know what our AVG score is for our starters minus the QB position. I'm VERY confident it'd be solidly AVG.
I do agree on Cutler probably not being available, it's a longshot. If it takes picks too, high one's, then I'd probably have to think twice, depends on the compensation. I'd probably still do a 2nd + 4th or something like that. It would take more to get Bridgewater this draft and Alex Smith last offseason, who's a worse QB. I find it very irritating coming from a guy that wanted us to spent as high as a first for Alex Smith (+ the contract: 3 years 25.25mil).
Let's not get too cute with the most important position that needs fixed. I'd do 5year, 75mil, 30mil guaranteed in a heartbeat. If it takes more, then we would have to structure the contract smarter.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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This team needs a big infusion of talent. That's not a secret accept to those in denial. Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.
In 2011, the Seattle Seahawks were 7-9, the previous 3 seasons they had 4, 5, and 7 wins respectively.. there were stuck just below mediocrity and they were in a horrible division.. they didn't have to play anybody as good as the Bengals or the Ravens.. heck maybe not even the Steelers this year...
Their QBs that year were Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst
Their running backs that year were Marshawn Lynch and Leon Washington
Leading WRs were Doug Baldwin, Sydney Rice, and Golden Tate
TE was Zach Miller
Top 10 tacklers were
Hawthorne, Chancellor, Thomas, Hill, Curry, Browner, Wright, Sherman, Clemons, Mebane
In 2012, they were 11-5 and a solid playoff team in a division that had gotten a lot better..
The QB was Russel Wilson, Rookie
Their rushing leaders that year were Marshawn Lynch and Russel Wilson
Leading WRs were Doug Baldwin, Sydney Rice, and Golden Tate
TE was Zach Miller
Top 10 tacklers were
Wagner, Chancellor, Thomas, Hill, Browner, Wright, Sherman, Clemons, Mebane, Trufant
So let's see, we changed the QB.. we added Wagner (a 2nd round pick rookie MLB) and we added Trufant a vet corner who had been on the team for many years..
I could give you this year but it looks EXACTLY like last year only all of those same players that struggled to get to 7 wins in '11 were now better..... so they went from a struggling 7-9 team to the very best team in the NFL almost overnight by drafting a MLB in the second round and drafting a QB... and they drafted an OG from NC State... and a DE who is not bad....
Where is their big infusion of talent to get from below average to the very best team in the NFL? We need 2 or 3 positions filled with good players and we need a QB to be an 11 win team.. we can accomplish that in one year if we do it right.
yebat' Putin
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Well I will be damned I saw a Diam post  I have to agree with you on Cutler. Just so NO. He may be the answer for a few more wins but he is not the answer for a trip to the Super Bowl
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Yet again they had a running game with Lynch.
they also had a seven win season. That's almost double the games we've won.
Cutler has been plagued with injuries.
When we are very close to a .500 team (as you plainly saw with Seattle at 7-9), I believe you would be correct. But I don't see Russel Wilson and Cutler in the same light.
I also don't see enough talent here for us to win seven games without our QB.
I don't see a healthy guy in Cutler. I don't see the "it factor" with Cutler. And with winning four games, I don't see us as being like Seattle just before they drafted Wilson.
I could be wrong, but I don't see Russel Wilson "special" in Jay Cutler or us being a Seattle with nothing more than a QB and a couple of more impact players.
With what we've seen of our 4th quarter D and zero running games, I think it will take far more pieces than you mentioned.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Mediocrity isn't the goal here. but some seem to advocate it. Probably more out of desperation and a willingness to believe rather than on purpose.
Come on my friend. That's where either you aren't reading or are reading what you want. I am not advocating mediocroty. I am advocationg not pinning our hopes on a rookie until said rookie shows he is the guy to take us past mediocre.
I am not pinning all on Cutler. I am saying roll with him until we do get the guy who can make us better.
Why is this so hard to understand? Quit putting words in peoples mouths. I don't think anybody has said Cutler is the bomb and the sure answer. Most everything I have read is saying he is the best, proven option that might be available.
Now, that said, I liked what i saw in Hoyer. Maybe he is the guy.
I guess what I am saying is people keep talking about money, like it's their money. We have been under the cap forever and haven't done SQUAT. It's dumb to entery a poker game where you can buy in up to 500 and only buy in at 200. You aren't going to win unless you simply plan on luck and are never be able to play out a decent hand because you can't match and raise. It's hard to win if you have to fold all the time.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Well I will be damned I saw a Diam post I have to agree with you on Cutler. Just so NO. He may be the answer for a few more wins but he is not the answer for a trip to the Super Bowl
well said sir ... he will win us a few more games than Campbell and Weeds .... Hoyer ... not so sure he would ... but I don't think he will ever lead anyone to the Super Bowl .... 2 cent head .... I will say this though .. if anyone can do it with him its Trestman ..... hes pretty good with QB's ...
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I am not pinning all on Cutler. I am saying roll with him until we do get the guy who can make us better.
But we can't do that.
He will get a massive, starter level contract, with big time guarantees. There is no "roll with him till we get someone better". There is "commit to him as the starter, and pay him accordingly".
We can't just use him until we don't need him and then dump him without consequence. Our cap will be effected, and when we need to re-sign some key players.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Bears won't just let Cutler test the waters when they can restrict his movement and get at least a 1st rounder and probably more draft picks for him. They will tag him if they can't get a contract worked out, and if that happens, the cost of Cutler becomes elite QB money AND a 1st round pick AND another high pick or player.
For Jay Cutler.
We're not talking about Brees here. We're not talking about a guy who is a top-10 QB. We're talking about a 31-year old gifted arm who turns the ball over, has an injury history, and has been unliked bye the two cities he's been employed in.
Just a question, not an argument... if Cutler is bad enough to be clearly not worth his unavoidable compensation cost, then how is that his cost is both so high and unavoidable?
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Yet again they had a running game with Lynch.
So the fact that we need a running back precludes us from taking a QB?
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Cutler has been plagued with injuries.
He missed one game in the middle of 2010
He missed the last 6 games of 2011
He missed one game in the middle of 2012
He missed 5 games in 2013
He's played in 49 of the Bears last 62 games... Over the last 7 years he's played in 97 of a possible 110 games... We should be so lucky.
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When we are very close to a .500 team (as you plainly saw with Seattle at 7-9), I believe you would be correct.
Seattle had the 17th ranked offense and 8th ranked defense.. Right now we are at 14 and 7... they won a few more games, we've blown a bunch of 4th quarter leads.. we really aren't that far away from being a .500 team, just need to learn how to finish.
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But I don't see Russel Wilson and Cutler in the same light.
Wasn't comparing Wilson to Cutler, was addressing your assertion that we need a massive influx of talent across the roster before we need to worry about a QB.
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I also don't see enough talent here for us to win seven games without our QB.
How can you not see that? We've won 4 games, we had one stolen by the Patriots, we allowed 21 4th quarter points to the Bears to lose by a TD, we allowed the Jags to go 80 yards in the 4th to beat us.. this team is a gnatsass away from being a 7 win team right now and we could still win another game...
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I could be wrong, but I don't see Russel Wilson "special" in Jay Cutler
Me either.. again, not arguing for Cutler as much as I'm saying we are a very good QB away from being an 11 win team even without some massive influx of talent in other spots..
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or us being a Seattle with nothing more than a QB and a couple of more impact players.
We need a little more than that to get where Seattle is today but not to be a legit playoff contender like Seattle was last year, one of the things we need is experience for our young players... what a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that a lot of the players we are counting on to step up, Haden, Ward, Cameron, Skrine, Mingo, Taylor, Sheard, Winn, Schwartz, Gordon, Hughes, Little, Benjamin, McFadden, Gipson, Robertson, Pinkston, Lauvao... these are all guys who have just barely, or have not yet, reached their prime.. most of them are 2nd or 3rd year players.... and if you're counting, that's well over half of our starting roster.. Not saying all of them are destined for greatness, but there is a lot of football talent on that list that still needs to mature in the NFL...
Let's see, another thing Seattle had in their favor, their coach was going into his 3rd season.. their young players who started coming into their own and making a big impact had been in the system for 2 or 3 years now..
So my point is, we are in a very similar position to Seattle from 2 years ago... very similar. Doing most of what they did is not all that difficult, let the young guys mature, find a few more solid pieces, give the coach and the system some time... the challenging part is finding Russel Wilson... which is why we need to start right now.. we cannot count on filling all of these other pieces, getting to .500 and then finding our own Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, it just doesn't happen very often.
yebat' Putin
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Seattle had the 17th ranked offense and 8th ranked defense.. Right now we are at 14 and 7... they won a few more games, we've blown a bunch of 4th quarter leads.. we really aren't that far away from being a .500 team, just need to learn how to finish.
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How can you not see that? We've won 4 games, we had one stolen by the Patriots, we allowed 21 4th quarter points to the Bears to lose by a TD, we allowed the Jags to go 80 yards in the 4th to beat us.. this team is a gnatsass away from being a 7 win team right now and we could still win another game...
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Me either.. again, not arguing for Cutler as much as I'm saying we are a very good QB away from being an 11 win team even without some massive influx of talent in other spots..
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We need a little more than that to get where Seattle is today but not to be a legit playoff contender like Seattle was last year, one of the things we need is experience for our young players... what a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that a lot of the players we are counting on to step up, Haden, Ward, Cameron, Skrine, Mingo, Taylor, Sheard, Winn, Schwartz, Gordon, Hughes, Little, Benjamin, McFadden, Gipson, Robertson, Pinkston, Lauvao... these are all guys who have just barely, or have not yet, reached their prime.. most of them are 2nd or 3rd year players.... and if you're counting, that's well over half of our starting roster.. Not saying all of them are destined for greatness, but there is a lot of football talent on that list that still needs to mature in the NFL...
You see DC, when adding everything I quoted you saying above, I just don't buy into it. You've clearly shown how we blow leads, can't close out games and give them away.
Every year we hear that "We are young and will need time to become winners."... Yet every year it ends up the same old, same old. Considering we have so many draft picks and this will only be the second year of re-building for this new FO, how much more youth do you feel is still yet to be infused?
How many of those players you listed do you even think will still be here in say two or three years? I'm not saying you're wrong, but we certainly don't see this picture in the same light.
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So my point is, we are in a very similar position to Seattle from 2 years ago... very similar. Doing most of what they did is not all that difficult, let the young guys mature, find a few more solid pieces, give the coach and the system some time... the challenging part is finding Russel Wilson... which is why we need to start right now.. we cannot count on filling all of these other pieces, getting to .500 and then finding our own Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, it just doesn't happen very often.
While you may not find a Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, you still have to find a QB in the draft. I mean if you wish to make the comparison, you can't dismiss that they found a long term answer to their QB position without going the band aid FA route.
To me the math is simple here. Once you are only a few FA's away from greatness, you don't want that cap space being spent on your second string QB you overpaid for a couple of years ago.
With the rookie cap in place, I don't believe Banner will overpay for a guy that leaves some to be desired rather than go the draft route. He has shown in the past he is shrude with the cap.
If Cutler were a QB I thought we could hitch our wagons to for four years and not make a major draft investment for the next three years, then fine. But I just don't believe he's that guy. Yet he will command that type of investment.
I also don't believe this FO and coaching staff sees all of the talent here that you do. How much of the roster gets turned over the next couple of off seasons will answer that question to a large degree.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Are we even disagreeing? I'm NOT talking about Cutler.. Not, not even a little bit. I'm talking about your post which previously stated that we needed a large infusion of talent before upgrading the QB spot would matter. That is the part that I find incorrect. Quote:
Every year we hear that "We are young and will need time to become winners."... Yet every year it ends up the same old, same old.
Because we are yet to find a QB to bring it all together, thus every couple years we change the staff, move a bunch of players out and a new cast in and we start over... that's why we are always young, since Butch left we've been young every year...
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Considering we have so many draft picks and this will only be the second year of re-building for this new FO, how much more youth do you feel is still yet to be infused?
One person for each draft pick, that's the youth that will be infused.. unfortunately we are still in a position where we need at least 2 or 3 of them to step in and play well right away... but at least they will be stepping into a system with guys around them who are one year older and have a full year in the system, which will help them.
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How many of those players you listed do you even think will still be here in say two or three years?
Most of them.
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you still have to find a QB in the draft.
Which is really all I've been saying.. even my thoughts on bringing Cutler in also involve drafting a QB pretty high, it's just that with Cutler, that QB won't be forced to "save us" immediately.. I'm still on the fence about Cutler, I can live with him or I can do without him.. he makes us immediately better, is he going to lead us deep into the playoffs? I don't know.
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To me the math is simple here. Once you are only a few FA's away from greatness, you don't want that cap space being spent on your second string QB you overpaid for a couple of years ago.
Given the number of years we've relied on that second string QB.. which has been pretty much every one, I wouldn't mind having a capable back-up.. maybe that's Hoyer, maybe Hoyer is the starter and it's somebody else.. I don't know.
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I also don't believe this FO and coaching staff sees all of the talent here that you do.
Maybe not, every team has turnover through growth, through attrition, through FA loss... I'm just saying there is a fair amount of talent there that I think we will hold onto and it will continue to get better.
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If you're really not speaking of Cutler, then we really aren't disagreeing. Or any high $$$ FA QB. My hope is this team gets much better. Do I think we have players like you mentioned that can help us get there? Yes I do. But the NFL is a business. Vers has stated that he doesn't believe this FO will pay Haden top 5 CB money if that's his demands. I'm not so sure they will either. I believe you will lose some players from the business side of the game. What I have seen are teams who "get close". Can they make the playoffs? Sometimes, but you know they're pretenders, not contenders. Can we say Bengals?  If let's say, you put a long term, 60-80 mil. contract in a guy that ends up as your back up, that's money that could well be spent on the few FA's it may take to be the difference from pretenders to a real SB team. I guess it boils down to how people perceive investing the cap. If I though Cutler was the type of consistant QB that really did make us a contender, then I would be up for that. As of now, I'd rather see this FO draft two QB's than to spend big on what I see a FA band aid. So, no, we really aren't in disagreement about it being too early for a QB. And I would have to add, if you're not sure about Cutler making us a playoff contender, what exactly does that say? To me it says you don't get into a bidding war for someone you aren't sold on. Especially at QB. JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So we aren't really in disagreement over much then... Quote:
And I would have to add, if you're not sure about Cutler making us a playoff contender, what exactly does that say?
Oh I'm pretty sure that Cutler with a couple other adds makes us a playoff contender.. but I don't want to be a playoff contender.. re-read your part about contenders and pretenders, that's how I feel... I think that with good talent Cutler could very easily pull a Flacco and string together enough games to get us to or even win a championship.. he has shown that level of ability.. I'm just saying I think the odds of him doing that 4 games in a row is slim.
You suggest we could draft 2 QBs... so who, among the QBs available, do you see that has tools superior to Cutler? Cutler was the #11 pick in the draft.... Taken behind Vince Young and Matt Leinart in what looks now to be have been a historically bad QB draft...
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To me it says you don't get into a bidding war for someone you aren't sold on. Especially at QB.
Oh I have no intention of getting into a bidding war.. if I make Cutler an offer at all, it's a reasonable offer and if he doesn't accept it, I walk away..
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I don't watch enough college ball nor get paid to evaluate QB's. Who to pick will be left up to those who make the big $$$. I just don't think an NFL FO can put off drafting a QB two years in a row and that be an avenue that people will accept. Between last year and this year, there will be QB's that are very good. And if this FO doesn't draft one of those, people will be second guessing them. If they draft the wrong one people will be second guessing them. Bridgewater looks to be a special kid. Maybe not Luck special, but who knows? I just know they can't let a second season pass by and not make a substantial investment at drafting a QB. I don't think people will accept them to continue to kick the can down the road. I'm not advocating they reach. I advocate they get it right. Lots of other people in their position have done it. If they miss or let one pass by them, this fan base will be fit to be tied. Sorry about the redneck sayings. Been reading the Duck Dynasty thread.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The Bears won't just let Cutler test the waters when they can restrict his movement and get at least a 1st rounder and probably more draft picks for him. They will tag him if they can't get a contract worked out, and if that happens, the cost of Cutler becomes elite QB money AND a 1st round pick AND another high pick or player.
For Jay Cutler.
We're not talking about Brees here. We're not talking about a guy who is a top-10 QB. We're talking about a 31-year old gifted arm who turns the ball over, has an injury history, and has been unliked bye the two cities he's been employed in.
Just a question, not an argument... if Cutler is bad enough to be clearly not worth his unavoidable compensation cost, then how is that his cost is both so high and unavoidable?
That one made my head hurt.
If I have the jist of your thought process interpreted correctly, it comes back to supply, demand, circumstance, and perception.
The risk of the Bears is losing a good QB without being able to replace him with an equally known QB. If they were a rebuilding team or one that is about to be torn down, the decision would be much easier to make, but they are a playoff-caliber team (or at least in the playoff picture) so in order to justify allowing him to walk away they need to get something back of considerable value.
That leads us back to the Browns.
We're buyers, and assuming we would want Cutler, we would have to buy at a premium because the team getting him won't be just giving up salary for his services. They'll also be giving up some package for the right to sign him.
Taking it on faith that the Bears will tag him in the absense of signing him to a contract, they own his rights. For the Bears it's a question of money, but for anyone else interested in Cutler it's a question of money and compensation.
The Bears just have to decide if he's worth the money. Everyone else would have to decide if he's worth the money and draft picks and/or players.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Vers has stated that he doesn't believe this FO will pay Haden top 5 CB money if that's his demands.
Actually, my comments are that I don't think this FO will give Ward top 3 or 4 Safety money. I could be dead wrong about that.
Haden. I think my comments were more along the lines of him not wanting to resign w/us.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 31 Bears 38 Cutler
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