Cutler - DawgTalkers.net

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I'd have no problem with Cutler, but lets be serious, they are going to Franchise tag him.

They have a lot of free agents coming up this season and mentioned they can't really franchise Jay and still get all the other guys they want to keep. So they'll either sign him longterm or let him walk (very unlikely on the walking option).

Of course, if they start him 2-3 of the last few games and he plays like crap, they may not want him around. Josh is showing what a traditional QB that plays within the system can do with these receivers. Jay takes too many risks and doesn't follow the system, so I could see a situation where they just don't think he can fit here, but again, it's unlikely.

Is there a QB in this draft of Jay Cutlers quality? No.

I think the best way to approach it is the way Seattle did it with Flynn, Jackson and Wilson. Pay a free agent to come in and still draft a QB. You really cannot count on Hoyer at this point.

Sign Cutler
Draft a QB
Keep Cambell or Hoyer
Cut either Cambell or Hoyer.

Let them hash it out.

It's absolutely a pipe dream due to the amount of money Cutler will demand, but I think it's a smart guideline to follow. We did it with Mingo, Sheard and Kruger and I think by and large we consider that a success.

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Is there a QB in this draft of Jay Cutlers quality? No.

I think the best way to approach it is the way Seattle did it with Flynn, Jackson and Wilson. Pay a free agent to come in and still draft a QB. You really cannot count on Hoyer at this point.

Sign Cutler
Draft a QB
Keep Cambell or Hoyer
Cut either Cambell or Hoyer.

Let them hash it out.

It's absolutely a pipe dream due to the amount of money Cutler will demand, but I think it's a smart guideline to follow. We did it with Mingo, Sheard and Kruger and I think by and large we consider that a success.

Paying a QB and drafting one in same year didn't seem to bother Seattle at all, haha.

And I mean we do have the money.

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Is there a QB in this draft of Jay Cutlers quality? No.

Then you say:

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Draft a QB

If we already have two backups, at worst, and nobody in this draft is even equal to Cutler - who isn't all that special, by the way - then WHY would we draft ANY QB from this class????

One, or both, of your statements make little sense.

JC

Cutler is inconsistent and injury prone. He's a good QB, but he isn't great for reasons mentioned and others. Which is not good cause he'll demand "great QB" money.

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JC

Cutler is inconsistent and injury prone. He's a good QB, but he isn't great for reasons mentioned and others. Which is not good cause he'll demand "great QB" money.

What does "JC" mean on these boards? I see it all the time.

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Is there a QB in this draft of Jay Cutlers quality? No.

I think the best way to approach it is the way Seattle did it with Flynn, Jackson and Wilson. Pay a free agent to come in and still draft a QB. You really cannot count on Hoyer at this point.

Sign Cutler
Draft a QB
Keep Cambell or Hoyer
Cut either Cambell or Hoyer.

Let them hash it out.

Totally agree on the QB part

Only that I think we could get some late round pick for either Campbell or Hoyer considering their play this season and minimal cost/risk. They'd upgrade a lot of backup spots around the league and that's worth a late rounder.

People forget the big difference in career stats between Cutler and Campbell. If you can pass protect, Cutler will thrive in our system and with Gordon/Cameron

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Is there a QB in this draft of Jay Cutlers quality? No.

Then you say:

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Draft a QB

If we already have two backups, at worst, and nobody in this draft is even equal to Cutler - who isn't all that special, by the way - then WHY would we draft ANY QB from this class????

One, or both, of your statements make little sense.

Nah you misunderstood. I meant is there anyone as good right now, coming out of the draft, fresh out of the box as good as the veteran Jay Cutler is right now. I don't believe so. That doesn't mean there isn't a guy with the potential to be better.

It's about hedging our bets. The QB is everything, we need to figure it out, the volume approach worked for Seattle and we have the money.

Gotcha.

I'm against signing him because I believe that between Campbell & Hoyer we have "good enough" to get by with when it comes to older guys with a limited future.
However, with the Draft, I'm am fully on-board with the idea of taking two QB's in the first three rounds. In fact, if our first four picks were 2 QB's, OG, and ILB, I'd be perfectly content with that.

Just Clicking. As in, "I'm not replying to you specifically."

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JC

Cutler is inconsistent and injury prone. He's a good QB, but he isn't great for reasons mentioned and others. Which is not good cause he'll demand "great QB" money.

What does "JC" mean on these boards? I see it all the time.

"Just clicking"

And anything in purple color is considered "sarcasm".

I honestly don't see the greatness in Cutler's game. I look at him and see a guy who is closer to Jason Campbell than Peyton Manning. (by far) I see a guy who has generally been pretty close in TD passes and INT in almost every year of his career. Both guys have been decent in creating big plays throughout their career. I just don't see "elite" when I look at either guy ...... but Campbell has shown some definite ability in this offense.

Would Cutler? Who knows?

Both guys have played in the WCO and Air Coryell. Neither guy distinguished himself in the Air Coryell system until Campbell this season with modest success thus far.

Cutler played under Martz for parts of 2 season in Chicago. (25 games) He went 443-746 (59.4%) 5593 yards, 36 TD, 23 INT, and he was sacked 75 times in these 25 games.

Campbell has played parts of 3 different seasons in the Air Coryell system. (25 games) He has gone 476-821 (58%) 5421 yards, 31 TD, 20 INT, and has been sacked 30 times in these games.

Does this say anything? Who knows? However, neither guy has really separated himself from the other playing in the offense we play.

I'm somewhat surprised that more people wouldn't want Cutler. He'd instantly be the best QB we've had since the return ... and it wouldn't be close. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

There's something else I like about Cutler, and I think this is something that Cleveland needs. We need attitude at the QB position. We need a guy with an 'I don't give a rat's behind what people think" attitude ... we need a thick skinned, SOB at that position in the worst way. And we need the competitive fire that comes with that attitude. I think Cutler has it in droves. There is such a black cloud hanging over this franchise that requires some attitude to slice through it. This franchise is too snake bitten for nice guys.

Manziel intrigues me as well because I think he would bring this quality to the team.

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I think the best way to approach it is:

Sign Cutler
Draft a QB
Keep ...Hoyer

I am completely on board with this approach...

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I think the best way to approach it is:

Sign Cutler
Draft a QB
Keep ...Hoyer

I am completely on board with this approach...

and keep campbell and I'm on board

we go through QB's like a priest goes through wine.

I'm with you, except who are we going to stash on the PS?

Why stash anyone? Find another way to free up one spot on the active roster. The bottom of the roster if full of guys that barely contribute.

You only have 46 of 53 players active on game day, so your game day roster composition isn't really an issue.

This is what people remember about Cutler.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jay-Cutler-55-yard-TD-Alshon-Jefferies.gif

not one guy on our roster can make a throw like that.

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not one guy on our roster can make a throw like that.

that's so not true. Weeden can hit that throw. Of course, he'd have to be aiming at the RB for the dumpoff when he did it.

but we have a lot that can make this throw..

web page

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but we have a lot that can make this throw..

web page

If that throw were a good thing, Weeden would be a hall of famer no doubt.

Not sure if we have WR's that can cover that well though.

Yeah, Weeden def has the cannon...

Man that bomb by Cutler was a beauty though.

Report: Bears 'likely' to let Jay Cutler walk in offseason
By Will Brinson | NFL Writer
December 11, 2013 1:42 pm CT

Just before Marc Trestman told reporters that Jay Cutler will be named the Bears starter if he's medically cleared on Wednesday, a report circulated that the Bears will "likely" let Cutler walk in the offseason.

Unless, according to Jason Cole of the National Football Post, Cutler is willing to take a "team-friendly deal." Timing is everything.

“[The Bears] believe in Trestman after what they've seen from [backup quarterback Josh] McCown," a source told Cole. "Between his system and the two big receivers [Brandon Marshall and Alshon Jeffery], you have a system where a quarterback can flourish. I don't know if McCown is going to be the starter [next season], but I think the team would be fine letting Cutler test the market and then go draft someone if he left."

This isn't an unreasonable stance, really. I argued for just that after Josh McCown's performance Monday night. The simple economics say that if Trestman can coach up McCown and the Bears can find a future franchise quarterback for cheap in the draft, they're better off than they would be paying Cutler $20 million.

Chicago, um, probably knows this. Phil Emery is a smart dude and he managed to rebuild the Bears offense in impressively fast fashion.

They'd love nothing more than for Cutler to take a team-friendly deal and hang around. But they also might not be confident enough in the McCown/draft pick combo to roll the dice on Cutler -- who is good friends with Marshall, the team's top wideout -- walking away for nothing.

Cutler would make bank in the open market. He'll be 31 by the time 2014 kicks off, but he's a "franchise quarterback" and would easily be the top guy available in free agency. Finding a taker for his physical talents wouldn't be hard.

I think people are getting too infatuated by an inflated stat-line of McCown Monday night. that was a terrible defense and McCown easily could have had 3 INTs (2 were dropped, the third was taken away on penalty) along with a bunch of other bad plays that were covered up by the defense being all-around terrible.

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I think people are getting too infatuated by an inflated stat-line of McCown Monday night.

I agree some of it might be infatuation but it's not just Monday night.. the guy has started the last 7 games, is completing almost 67% of his passes, has 13 TDs and 1 INT... and a QB rating of 110... every QB gets the benefit of a dropped INT here and there just like every one suffers from a dropped pass...

The Bears need to take a long look at how, with QB play like that, they are 3-4 over that stretch...

JC

Part of Cutler's problem for the past couple of years has been the Bears's pass protection.

I'm not saying that it's entirely the Oline's fault (because that's the nature of the game) however...

Martz's scheme he wanted to run never really worked with the personnel he had in place. He wanted to stretch the field with long routes and the O-line never really had time to set those up and let the routes develop downfield.

Granted, Cutler's pocket presence isn't the greatest. I've seen him have a case of the dumb... He fumbled like 3 times in one game, Chicago never really had true play making receiver until B-Marsh though.

I think this team has the personnel for Cutler to be successful here. And signing him would allow them to look into other areas in this year's draft.

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Report: Bears 'likely' to let Jay Cutler walk in offseason
By Will Brinson | NFL Writer
December 11, 2013 1:42 pm CT

Just before Marc Trestman told reporters that Jay Cutler will be named the Bears starter if he's medically cleared on Wednesday, a report circulated that the Bears will "likely" let Cutler walk in the offseason.

Unless, according to Jason Cole of the National Football Post, Cutler is willing to take a "team-friendly deal." Timing is everything.

“[The Bears] believe in Trestman after what they've seen from [backup quarterback Josh] McCown," a source told Cole. "Between his system and the two big receivers [Brandon Marshall and Alshon Jeffery], you have a system where a quarterback can flourish. I don't know if McCown is going to be the starter [next season], but I think the team would be fine letting Cutler test the market and then go draft someone if he left."

This isn't an unreasonable stance, really. I argued for just that after Josh McCown's performance Monday night. The simple economics say that if Trestman can coach up McCown and the Bears can find a future franchise quarterback for cheap in the draft, they're better off than they would be paying Cutler $20 million.

Chicago, um, probably knows this. Phil Emery is a smart dude and he managed to rebuild the Bears offense in impressively fast fashion.

They'd love nothing more than for Cutler to take a team-friendly deal and hang around. But they also might not be confident enough in the McCown/draft pick combo to roll the dice on Cutler -- who is good friends with Marshall, the team's top wideout -- walking away for nothing.

Cutler would make bank in the open market. He'll be 31 by the time 2014 kicks off, but he's a "franchise quarterback" and would easily be the top guy available in free agency. Finding a taker for his physical talents wouldn't be hard.

I started doing a little reading/research on Trestman and the offensive success the Bears have had, and based upon what I've read about Trestman's history, his offensive coaching ability, and the fact that they have two QB's of vastly different histories and ability levels playing nearly identical ball, I am inclined to side with the Bears on this one.. McCown is playing so far above his head right now, it's nuts. He hasn't played like this since the years he was in Arizona with Fitzgerald and Boldin.

This dynamic is the result of the system and those two monster WR's.

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I think people are getting too infatuated by an inflated stat-line of McCown Monday night.

I agree some of it might be infatuation but it's not just Monday night.. the guy has started the last 7 games, is completing almost 67% of his passes, has 13 TDs and 1 INT... and a QB rating of 110... every QB gets the benefit of a dropped INT here and there just like every one suffers from a dropped pass...

The Bears need to take a long look at how, with QB play like that, they are 3-4 over that stretch...

To be fair, Jay started two of those loses. So technially, Josh is 3-2 as a starter. Josh played well off the bench for Jay, who left the field leaving a hole for Josh to play out of that's for sure.

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What I know is this: we effectively run the very same defense that Pittsburgh has run for decades. They tend to not have their LB's get abused by RB's while we do.

I'll let other folks figure out the How's and Why's, but there is very clearly something wrong with this picture.

Have you ever considered that they have had Troy P. at SS for years and we have a SS who can't cover?

you never miss a chance to bash Ward even when talking other positions.

no, I think we are referring to how Robertson was clearly flailing in attempts to cover RBs this year. honestly, it's surprising as coverage was his strength last year. i'm not sure if OC's figured out some of his tendencies (he tried to jump routes last year) ? or just figured out his weaknesses, but he's been a major liability this year. our biggest in coverage.

Ward has generally been either guarding deep (his weakness as he doesn't have a great path to the ball in flight) or TEs in man (which he is pretty good at, but not great). He is definitely at his best while attacking forward.

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you never miss a chance to bash Ward even when talking other positions.

no, I think we are referring to how Robertson was clearly flailing in attempts to cover RBs this year. honestly, it's surprising as coverage was his strength last year. i'm not sure if OC's figured out some of his tendencies (he tried to jump routes last year) ? or just figured out his weaknesses, but he's been a major liability this year. our biggest in coverage.

Ward has generally been either guarding deep (his weakness as he doesn't have a great path to the ball in flight) or TEs in man (which he is pretty good at, but not great). He is definitely at his best while attacking forward.

personally, I think it's mingo and sheard (experience) that are not in a good enough position when playing zone(our LB's play a ton of zone) If they are leaving open windows that cause throwing lanes that get passed onto Robertson. Also, as I stated before... Reggie bush was covered m2m by Robertson all game and we made no adjustments. the first half he was held in check... DET made adjustments and got chunks of yards.Not many CB's can cover Bush m2m let alone LB's

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I'm somewhat surprised that more people wouldn't want Cutler. He'd instantly be the best QB we've had since the return ... and it wouldn't be close. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

There's something else I like about Cutler, and I think this is something that Cleveland needs. We need attitude at the QB position. We need a guy with an 'I don't give a rat's behind what people think" attitude ... we need a thick skinned, SOB at that position in the worst way. And we need the competitive fire that comes with that attitude. I think Cutler has it in droves. There is such a black cloud hanging over this franchise that requires some attitude to slice through it. This franchise is too snake bitten for nice guys.

Manziel intrigues me as well because I think he would bring this quality to the team.

People have always been bedazzled with Cutler's arm-talent, but in terms of being an NFL QB, he's been good but not at all great. To put it into perspective, you said he'd be the best QB we've had since '99 and it's not close.

Jay Cutler's career passer rating: 84.4
Jason Campbell's carrer rating: 83.0

Now before someone decides to get all stOOpid with this and suggest that I'm making a claim that Campbell is as good or better than Cutler, just know that's not what's happening here. What I am doing is pointing out why Cutler isn't the kind of guy that people are going goo-goo or gah-gah over...nor should they.

Is Cutler a guy that you want to throw huge money at? Is he worth what would be a huge contract or even a couple of very high picks should the Bears elect to tag him?

I don't know that he is. He certainly hasn't been for Chicago after they gave up two 1st rounders and a 3rd rounder for him. Those lack of picks are part of the reason why the Bears haven't been able to get over the hump.

Here's a quick comparison of a "Journeyman" in Campbell and "Franchise" guy in Cutler...

Both guys came out in '06. Both guys are not on their original teams, and in Cutler's case there's a real chance he'll be on his third. Cutler's career rating of 84.4 is hardly far greater than Campbell's 83. Cutler's TD/INT ratio is 1.38 TD's to every INT. Campbell's is 1.55. Campbell has 36 fumbles to Cutler's 35. Cutler complete's 61% of his passes to Campbell's 60.7%.

Now to be very fair here Cutler has played in more games, has a higher YPA at 7.21 against Campbell's 6.73, and has a QBR of 55 against Campbell's 47. But he's missed plenty of time over the last 3 seasons (14 starts) and everyone knows that he's been a headcase at times.

Yes, Cutler would be an upgrade over Campbell, but a significant upgrade? I don't believe so.

People love the tools that Cutler brings to the table, but he's not unlike Jeff George in that regard. His physical abilities have often been overshadowed by what's gone on between the ears. At various times he's been reviled by the fanbase and replied in-kind.

Would I like to see the Browns sign Cutler for the right price? Yes, I would. He's a guy that we could plug in for the next 3 or 4 seasons and say we have a legit QB. He's good, but he's not great. The truth is he and Campbell are having very comparable seasons, and when you get right down to brass tacks and compare bottom-line results Cutler isn't a huge upgrade over Campbell. If the price to get Cutler are a couple of #1 picks and a big contract I say no way. Even if it's a 1st and a 2nd I don't bother with it. Cutler is good but he's not great, and he certainly isn't a huge upgrade over Campbell.

The Bears aren't just going to let him walk away. Anyone who truly believes that either doesn't understand the situation or hasn't looked at it yet. So the price to get a good but not great QB will be severe.

Jay Cutler would be the best QB we've had, but I'm doubting he'll be available, and even if he is, the cost will be prohibitive.

Regarding the "I don't give a ." attitude you believe this team needs, I disagree. Strongly. That attitude got Cutler kicked out of Denver, and nearly got Cutler ran out of Chicago. I don't want that kind of QB here. Truth be told more often than not those kinds of QB's end up failing.

There's nothing wrong with this teams attitude that can't be fixed by a running game and a few upgrades at other positions. What you're talking about is an arrogance. Teams that have championship QB's are filled with confidence. Big difference.

I don't think anyone is thinking we should give up 1st round picks for Cutler. I'd walk away at that point at least.

it is a good point on 2nd half adjustments. i'll have to rewatch the Lions game at some point because my main memory is I was upset at him getting scorched at the time (but, you bring up a great point of why didn't we adjust for it?).

I believe you nailed it Toad!

I believe there will be somewhat of a bidding war for Cutler and the price will outweigh the benefits. You gave very legitimate reasons why and I touched upon some of those reasons in another thread.

jc

Personally I'm not interested in Cutler. I think his best days are behind him or he has topped out...

I'd rather go into next season with a competition between Hoyer, Cambell and a rookie draft pick. I also do not want to break the bank to draft a QB this year. I think Hoyer is going to pan out for us short term until we can find the RIGHT QB to go all in on.

The Bears would have to franchise Cutler in order to control him contractually. The 2014 QB franchise tag will be something like $16 million. That would hit their cap immediately. Now they will have cap space available to handle such a tender, but do they want to take the chance that no one wants to trade for Cutler at that dollar amount? Cutler has already said that he would return for the 1 year franchise tender, so what happens for the Bears if he accepts and signs the tender as soon as they tag him? They are then on the hook for $16 million. Maybe they can trade him at that point, and maybe not. That's a big 1 year contract. Not every team can afford that, and not every team will want to commit that much of their cap to him on just a 1 year deal. Obviously a team trading for him could negotiate a new deal beforehand, but that number if sure to be high given that the starting point would be that $16 million tender.

Now maybe Cutler is bluffing about being more than willing to play for the tender, and his willingness to sign it immediately, but do the Bears take that risk?

It will be a hard decision for them.

...and like I stated above, it's not that the Bears can't handle the franchise tag number, it's that they have A LOT of free agents this offseason. Sure they can tag him and keep him, but that number will prohibit them from signing a lot of their other pieces they want to retain.

That's why I said they'll either have him with a long term deal or let him walk. I don't see a situation where Cutler plays under that franchise tag. It hurts everyone. And the Bears and Cutler know what's it's like playing short with Cutler (trading away all those picks to Denver really hurt their ability to field the right kind of team in the first few years - and it's still hurting them in a way).

Looks like Cutler is going to start this weekend. I'll be there to watch him and evaluate myself.

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...and like I stated above, it's not that the Bears can't handle the franchise tag number, it's that they have A LOT of free agents this offseason. Sure they can tag him and keep him, but that number will prohibit them from signing a lot of their other pieces they want to retain.

That's why I said they'll either have him with a long term deal or let him walk. I don't see a situation where Cutler plays under that franchise tag. It hurts everyone. And the Bears and Cutler know what's it's like playing short with Cutler (trading away all those picks to Denver really hurt their ability to field the right kind of team in the first few years - and it's still hurting them in a way).

A lot depends on the market too... I can't see the Bears overpaying for him, especially when Trestman is making a McCown brother look like Tom Brady.

Who's really going to go after him? Houston? Tennessee?

There aren't really that many suitors. I don't think every team that needs a QB would actually go after Cutler.

Houston or Arizona would be probably the two that come to mind right away for me. Both of those teams are ready to win right now. The Browns are in the conversation, although I don't think we're quite to their level of talent.

I guess I should start a "how many interceptions will Haden have?" thread.

Being in Chicago I can tell you, most fans don't like him. And the ones that do like him, they aren't super high on him. I suppose it's not much different than how most Browns fans feel about our QBs, they're either awful, terrible or just ok (never very good or great).

As a STH for the Bears, I was hoping Josh would start the rest of the way because I want them to win the division and get me playoff tickets. I think Jay will crash and burn (which is maybe what the Bears front office wants to see, it could make the offseason decision easier).

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I guess I should start a "how many interceptions will Haden have" thread.

Being in Chicago I can tell you, most fans don't like him. And the one that do like him, they aren't super high on him. I suppose it's not much different than how most Browns fans feel about our QBs, they are either awful, terrible or ok (never very good or great).

All the people I know don't like the guy but put up with him because of the vacancy at the position for 4 decades....

He comes off as smug and a total jerk, but I really don't think he's that bad of a guy. He conducts himself well in interviews. But just like all the memes point out, his body language is horrible (don't carrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre).

Right, most of it comes from his general jerkish face on the sideline or walking off the field after an interception. He just looks like that guy from high school you wanted to fight, just because, even though you knew he was an overall nice guy.

I also think his "Bad Jay" games really hurt his PR too. He seems to toss a real junker every 3rd game (150 yards, 3 INTs, 5 sacks). It would be one thing if he were consistantly slightly above average, but he's well above average one game, average the next, and then worse than Weeden in the 3rd. At the end of the year, assuming he makes it through the year, his stats are good but you can't seem to shake the 4 bad performances that ruined the season when you needed him to just play average. It really annoys this fanbase.

Yes, they put up with him because he's better than Rex Grossman, Kyle Orton or any other trash QB the Bears have had in the last few decades.

Erik Kramer!!!!

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Erik Kramer!!!!

or that one year with Jim Miller?

Yeah, Forte scares me as' well. Our run defense seems to have... declined some these past few games.

We still haven't let up a 100 yard rusher??? I think all the fear most dawgs were talking about had to do with Forte catching passes out of the backfield - which we have not had a solution all year...mostly its been Robertson's coverage and he always seems to be just a step off.

JMHO

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Regarding the "I don't give a ." attitude you believe this team needs, I disagree. Strongly. That attitude got Cutler kicked out of Denver, and nearly got Cutler ran out of Chicago. I don't want that kind of QB here. Truth be told more often than not those kinds of QB's end up failing.

There's nothing wrong with this teams attitude that can't be fixed by a running game and a few upgrades at other positions. What you're talking about is an arrogance. Teams that have championship QB's are filled with confidence. Big difference.

There was a lot you covered, but I just highlighted the above. Here are a few things I think I think about your overall post.

1. I'm not really a Campbell fan. He did play brilliantly last week. He's had a few really good games. He also had a couple of bad ones. I just don't care for him at QB. I don't think he's consistent enough. I don't see 'playmaker' when I think of Campbell. I see a guy who on occasion is slightly better than a game manager.

2. I like Hoyer much better than Campbell. I'm sure some of that has to do with still being an unknown, but I like the way the team rallies around him. I like the feeling that he can lead us on a game winning drive when needed. I like that his former Pats teammates talk him up unprovoked. I like that he is kind of fiery. We need a fiery leader at QB. Campbell is too passive for my tastes.

3. I see Cutler ... even at the age of 31 ... having a much greater chance of finishing his career strong than Campbell. He's certainly 'flashed' more...stats be damned. And I by no means am advocating doing anything stupid to get him. But I'd take him over Campbell any day of the week and twice on Sunday. With our OL, Gordon, Cameron, and a player that we add in the offseason, he could instantly make us an 9 win or more team, IMO.

The reason I highlighted the quotes of yours above is because I believe we strongly need someone with an attitude at the QB position. Cleveland is a tough place to play due to all the losing. We need someone tough with attitude to help turn this thing around ... while being able to handle the ire of fans along the way for the inevitable speed bumps that will come. I don't think Cutler is arrogant at all. I just think he doesn't give a crap. As long as that guy is a good teammate, we need some of that "don't give a crap" attitude on this team, IMO.

I agree on Cutler....I think he is a darn good QB. I said it then, I say it now.

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it is a good point on 2nd half adjustments. i'll have to rewatch the Lions game at some point because my main memory is I was upset at him getting scorched at the time (but, you bring up a great point of why didn't we adjust for it?).

Don't take my word for it... take Reggie Bush's word for it:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/10/detroit_lions_running_back_reg.html

After not catching a pass in the first half, Bush caught five passes for 57 yards in the second. (halftime adjustment)

Bush seemed surprised the Browns would leave him alone on a linebacker. Robertson finished the game second on the Browns with eight tackles and a sack.

“That was an area we needed to exploit," he said. “If they're going to play us man-to-man, with me and a linebacker, we feel like that's a scenario we can win. We made the adjustment in the second half and started to throw the ball a little more."

“In the second half, we made the adjustment," Bush said. “We felt like there was some one-on-one opportunities we could take advantage of. One was me against 53 (Browns inside linebacker Craig Robertson), and we made it work.''

or Stafford's word for it:

“We had to feel out their game plan," Stafford said. “They're a zone team on film and they came out today and played cover-one the whole game. We said, 'Hey, if they want to play man coverage, let's get Reggie Bush on (Robertson). That's a great matchup.'

same stuff I've been saying for a while.our LB's play a lot of zone. You can't expect ANY LB in the NFL to cover Bush... he's got sick speed.

So, we intentionally called a defense to put ourselves at a disadvantage, and then stayed with it?

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So, we intentionally called a defense to put ourselves at a disadvantage, and then stayed with it?

well, yes.

We should have gone back to zone or made adjustments in the 4th Q. that is also why we are getting lots of short passes against us and we don't have any 100 yard rushers against us.

thanks.

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3. I see Cutler ... even at the age of 31 ... having a much greater chance of finishing his career strong than Campbell. He's certainly 'flashed' more...stats be damned. And I by no means am advocating doing anything stupid to get him. But I'd take him over Campbell any day of the week and twice on Sunday. With our OL, Gordon, Cameron, and a player that we add in the offseason, he could instantly make us an 9 win or more team, IMO.

Getting Cutler would open up our entire Offense and Offseason. I really don't care about the money. Make it front-loaden if need be, incentive-laden, whatever. Banner is smart with that stuff, so I trust him there. We ponied up 20mil this past offseason for 2 positions with D.Bryant, Kruger and Mingo. While solid to good (Bryant+Kruger) to "flashing" (Mingo), none of these guys made a game changing play this season. Not one single TO created to show for 20mil. My point? If it takes 10-20mil/year for Cutler, you still do it, because he impacts the game more. What could we lose with 30+mil in cap? The "save the cap" contest?

Imagine our "freedom" in the draft too with Cutler as the top guy signed: so many options. We can go BPA, even trade down with our first pick etc. We control the draft without that "having to draft a QB at all costs somewhere in the 1st" cloud hanging over our head.

My "dream scenario" right now is sign Cutler, even if he 's the only FA. In the draft add Mike Evans with the first pick, alternatively Sammy Watkins.

Now imagine Cutler heaving it to Gordon, Cameron and Evans or Watkins and Joe Thomas protecting his blind side. It's the nuts.

So many options with the Colts pick too at the end of the 1st. Value pick an OL in a strong class, DB, value pick a falling QB, trade…many options.

Getting Cutler would be HUGE. It would accelerate our "window of opportunity" AND open up the entire offseason.

I'm with you on this one, Django. Cutler would absolutely be huge.

That doesn't mean that I like him as our guy. Personally, I think the guy is a wuss and a bust as far as his potential coming into the league.

I like to bring him in, though, because he's a bigger, better, shinier version of Campbell. That is, a vet that can hold down the fort for 2 years, max, while the QBs behind him settle into place. We have got to get this next QB (draft) pick right, and a big part of that involves not throwing that guy to the wolves right out of the gate. Cutler, Hoyer, and possibly even Campbell as well ensures that our newest QB project won't get spoiled right out of the gate.

Will he be expensive...? Probably. I'm not so sure we're going to have to back up the Brinks truck like people are saying, though. I think the true talent-starved teams won't look at Cutler, and vice-versa. I also think that the guys that we have in place (not terrible pass-blocking oline, receiving options, good D, and lots of picks for adding additional talent in key places) makes us an attractive landing spot for Cutler.

The only negative is, as some have mentioned, if Cutler is looking for his final contract (long-term and big money), then everything that I just said goes out the window. No way do I give that guy something like that.

The problem is, signing Cutler will require a big $$$, long term deal. It simply isn't worth it.

His back up has better numbers this year. Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

Even with a running game, Cutler hasn't played lights out. I just feel some are so desperate for a QB, they'd rather settle for a slight upgrade over Campbell as a short term Band-Aid.

I simply don't see going bonkers over Cutler with a huge, long term investment. And you will have to do that in order to land him.

My sentiments, precisely.

I get hot and cold on the Cutler idea. Even as I was making this post (which was going to agree with Pit's comments for the most part) I had second thoughts.

Yes, Cutler is going to demand cash. Maybe more than Banner is willing to fork out. And yes, it will have to be a long term contract because it's probably the last shot at one in his career. Also, he may not want anything to do with the Cleveland Browns.

But I can't help but think about a few things:

- He'll INSTANTLY improve this offense by a large margin IMO and would be by far better than any option we currently have.

- In my opinion, with the talent this team already has, he makes the team a playoff contender in the short term-- more specifically, 2014.

- I think Cleveland may be attractive because of the good pass protection. This year is the first year Cutler has had some in Chicago. I forget how it was for him in Denver, but under Shanahan, I'm assuming it was good.

- A signing like this won't pressure the FO to take a QB with their first pick...that is unless there is someone they really, really like. At this point, it's Bridgewater and then a big gap to everyone else. Maybe this changes, maybe not. But signing someone like Cutler allows the FO to address other positions like ILB, OG/C, WR, etc if the QB prospects are not rated as high.

I was listening to the radio this afternoon, and some journalist reported that his sources told him the Browns really liked Mariota (take it FWIW). With him out of the picture for now, getting Cutler may allow them to go for it next year whether it's him or someone else that may decide to come out....Jameis Winston...

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the Browns really liked Mariota (take it FWIW). With him out of the picture for now, getting Cutler may allow them to go for it next year whether it's him or someone else that may decide to come out....Jameis Winston...

In order for the Browns to be in position to do that, they'll have to NOT be a playoff team next season, which flies against the notion of wanting what you'd hope Cutler brings.

Personally, I don't believe that Cutler brings more than Hoyer or Campbell; I believe that his stats are grossly inflated by the system he is in. You can't just look at this season and think "Yeah, THAT is the Cutler we're going to get". You have to look at his entire career and guesstimate that you're far more likely to, at best, get an average of all of his seasons.... and that really is not an overly pretty picture, at all.

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the Browns really liked Mariota (take it FWIW). With him out of the picture for now, getting Cutler may allow them to go for it next year whether it's him or someone else that may decide to come out....Jameis Winston...

In order for the Browns to be in position to do that, they'll have to NOT be a playoff team next season, which flies against the notion of wanting what you'd hope Cutler brings.

Personally, I don't believe that Cutler brings more than Hoyer or Campbell; I believe that his stats are grossly inflated by the system he is in. You can't just look at this season and think "Yeah, THAT is the Cutler we're going to get". You have to look at his entire career and guesstimate that you're far more likely to, at best, get an average of all of his seasons.... and that really is not an overly pretty picture, at all.

Regarding Mariota....not necessarily. They guy could have a mediocre season next year or get injured. Maybe the Browns trade down to pick up a 1st rounder in 2015, or grab other early round picks to make a deal. My point is....ANYTHING can happen from now to the 2015 draft. But yes, if Mariota improves his game, no other college QB steps up, we simply have 7 draft picks (one in each round) then yes, we have a very small chance of landing him.

I understand your Cutler concerns. One thing I will disagree with is your comment about equating Cutler to Hoyer/Campbell. I think Cutler is better than both...based on the large sample size we've seen from Campbell (Redskins, Raiders, Bears, Cleveland) and the small sample size we've seen from Hoyer ( one pass in NE, One game in Arizona, and 2 games in Cleveland). If you made me choose between the three to start next year, I'd take Cutler in a heartbeat.

I am not nearly as high on Mariota as everyone else. No doubt he is a great talent, but this guy really struggled reading the more complicated collegiate defenses such as Stanford's. NFL defenses and coverages are way more complex.

I agree w/DJ in that imagine what we could do in the draft if we signed Cutler. I know the guy gets a bad rap, but he is a very talented guy. He has matured a lot in the last couple of years. He would fit perfectly in Norv's offense.

On the other hand, he does have some baggage and has been injured a lot.

I'm like Memphis in regards to saying it's a tough call, either way. I see the benefits and the possible problems of going after him.

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The problem is, signing Cutler will require a big $$$, long term deal. It simply isn't worth it.

His back up has better numbers this year. Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

Even with a running game, Cutler hasn't played lights out. I just feel some are so desperate for a QB, they'd rather settle for a slight upgrade over Campbell as a short term Band-Aid.

I simply don't see going bonkers over Cutler with a huge, long term investment. And you will have to do that in order to land him.

Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler. I don't believe that Joe Banner would spend that kinda money on a guy you can't get 10 years or more out of.

JMO of course.

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Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler.

Is Cutler a truly "elite" QB?...possibly. Is he a "franchise" QB?...likely. Do we have an elite or franchise QB?...no. I would suggest that he would have to be seriously considered...

See, I think this is where the confusion lies...

I do NOT think Cutler is elite, NOR do I think he's a franchise QB.

I DO think the Browns should go after him and attempt to sign him to a shorter-term contract. He would be an upgraded stopgap over our current stopgaps.

The phone probably gets hung up after 'short-term'.

This is Cutler's retirement contract.

If he's not a Bear next year, he's probably a Raider.

I would take the guy in another scenario, but he's looking for a contract he hasn't merited (and he'll get it). No thank you.

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Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler.

Is Cutler a truly "elite" QB?...possibly. Is he a "franchise" QB?...likely. Do we have an elite or franchise QB?...no. I would suggest that he would have to be seriously considered...

There is that word ELITE again. LOL

If he's truly a franchise QB, he won't be there for anyone to grab. Just because you don't have something you need, you don't go grasping at straws. See the Redskins giving 3 first round picks and a second round pick for what looks like a one year wonder so far. I know that can change and I hope it does because I think RG is a decent kid and I'd like to see him succeed.

But wouldn't it be funny if the guy they picked in the middle rounds turns out to be the star they've been dying for.

The reason I think they'll pass on him is two fold, 30 years old and the money it would take to get him. Banner isn't that crazy.

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See, I think this is where the confusion lies...

I do NOT think Cutler is elite, NOR do I think he's a franchise QB.

I DO think the Browns should go after him and attempt to sign him to a shorter-term contract. He would be an upgraded stopgap over our current stopgaps.

Man, I don't either.

In Chicago, he has Matt Forte to take all of the pressure off of him. Forte already has broken the 1000 yard mark, and has 7 rushing TDs.

He has Brandon Marshall and Alshon Jeffrey at WR. Both guys are already 1000 yard receivers. He also has a quality TE in Bennett.

In 7+ games, with this talent around him, Cutler threw 13 TD and 8 INT. He threw 3 TD and 2 INT against Minnesota. (Hoyer, the following week, threw 3 and 3) He has largely been an "OK" QB this year. (as he has for most of his career) Speaking of his career, he has also been hurt again ..... as he has many times in his career .....

People say "Oh, you can't compare what Josh McCown has down this year to what Cutler has done", but I see no reason why not. McCown has played 6+ games, and has also thrown 13 TD and only 1 INT. One could argue that he has outplayed Cutler. Cutler has averaged 7.2 yards/pass attempt, and McCown 8.22.

I think that Cutler is a decent, solid QB, but I think that he's probably more a middle of the pack guy than an elite guy. He's kind of like an Alex Smith+ to me. Is he good enough to win a Super Bowl with? I don't know.

The Bears have made the playoffs twice with Cutler at the helm.

In 2010, they had the 9th ranked defense. (4th ranked scoring defense) Their offense was ranked only 30th. (21st in scoring)

Last year the Bears went 10-6. (and missed the playoffs) They had the 5th ranked defense. (3rd in points allowed) Their offense was ranked only 28th, and 16th in points scored. Imagine how the Bears would have done if they had not scored 9 TD on defense, and 1 on special teams.

These are quite pedestrian numbers for a team with an elite QB. The Bears have had great defenses, and have been able to run the ball well. Cutler has still been very average.

Don we want a QB who throws 25 TD and 18 INT?

How about 27 TD and 26 INT?

23 TD to 16 INT?

13 to 7?

19 to 14?

13 to 8?

He is a decent QB, but he throws a lot of INT compared to the number of TD passes he throws. In the 2 seasons in which he has been relied upon most heavily, he threw a combined 52 TD passes, but also a staggering 44 INT. If we want a QB who eliminates mistakes, Cutler is not that guy.

I think that he trusts his arm more than is deserved. He is willing to make any throw on the field, whether that throw is well advised or not.

I dunno. If the front office goes after him, then I will hope that he is the guy so many hope he will be. Frankly I don't want to see us throw a monster contract at him. I don't think that he is a championship level QB.

In the end, I look at Cutler, and Campbell, and Hoyer ........ and I don't know that I see a tremendous advantage of signing Cutler (especially at a premium price) I look at Campbell and Cutler and see capable NFL QBs, but not guys I would invest a ton of cap dollars in.

Maybe I'll be wrong, and maybe Cutler will become a 30/10 type guy wherever he plays next year .... but his track record doesn't make that seem likely.

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The problem is, signing Cutler will require a big $$$, long term deal. It simply isn't worth it.

His back up has better numbers this year. Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

Even with a running game, Cutler hasn't played lights out. I just feel some are so desperate for a QB, they'd rather settle for a slight upgrade over Campbell as a short term Band-Aid.

I simply don't see going bonkers over Cutler with a huge, long term investment. And you will have to do that in order to land him.

Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler. I don't believe that Joe Banner would spend that kinda money on a guy you can't get 10 years or more out of.

JMO of course.

I think you are getting a little carried away there. I don't think any front office person really looks beyond maybe a 5 year timeline. Mostly because most contracts are in the 3-5 year range. You don't read about players signing 10 year contracts very often.

What Banner does do is jettison players he feels are nearing the end. Cutler at 31 would fit nicely in to a 5 year plan. Some could argue that Cutler is entering his prime years. QB routinely play well in to their late 30's, in some cases near 40.

If Cutler was 34 right now, I'd agree. Nothing long term. At this point, we would have every reason to believe he could perform at a high level for the duration of the contract.

I'd still look to draft a QB, but maybe not this year. Either way, it wouldn't hurt for a drafted player to sit for 2-3 years before being given much of a real shot at starting. At that point, you let Cutler go or trade him for something. At that point, 3-4 years of solid production would justify the investment and you could structure the deal in a way that the bonus money was written off over the first 3 years of the contract.

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...3-4 years of solid production would justify the investment ...

Most certainly. Something we haven't had in quite a while...

Cutler's been in the league for 8 years and only two of those years has he had a winning season. He's been to the post season only one year, 2010. I know average looks good to us as we've had so many failures but lets not get carried away and start throwing big money at mr average just to get to 7 or 8 wins.

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Cutler's been in the league for 8 years and only two of those years has he had a winning season. He's been to the post season only one year, 2010. I know average looks good to us as we've had so many failures but lets not get carried away and start throwing big money at mr average just to get to 7 or 8 wins.

That pretty much covers it to me. People speak about desperation in the draft? I see such a move as desperation in the FA market to achieve mediocrity at best.

And I think that's part of the problem. Things have gotten so bad, people would be willing to settle for mediocrity.

This isn't anything compared to Denver getting Peyton Manning or Minnesota getting Brett Favre.

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The problem is, signing Cutler will require a big $$$, long term deal. It simply isn't worth it.

His back up has better numbers this year. Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

Even with a running game, Cutler hasn't played lights out. I just feel some are so desperate for a QB, they'd rather settle for a slight upgrade over Campbell as a short term Band-Aid.

I simply don't see going bonkers over Cutler with a huge, long term investment. And you will have to do that in order to land him.

Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler. I don't believe that Joe Banner would spend that kinda money on a guy you can't get 10 years or more out of.

JMO of course.

I think you are getting a little carried away there. I don't think any front office person really looks beyond maybe a 5 year timeline. Mostly because most contracts are in the 3-5 year range. You don't read about players signing 10 year contracts very often.

What Banner does do is jettison players he feels are nearing the end. Cutler at 31 would fit nicely in to a 5 year plan. Some could argue that Cutler is entering his prime years. QB routinely play well in to their late 30's, in some cases near 40.

If Cutler was 34 right now, I'd agree. Nothing long term. At this point, we would have every reason to believe he could perform at a high level for the duration of the contract.

I'd still look to draft a QB, but maybe not this year. Either way, it wouldn't hurt for a drafted player to sit for 2-3 years before being given much of a real shot at starting. At that point, you let Cutler go or trade him for something. At that point, 3-4 years of solid production would justify the investment and you could structure the deal in a way that the bonus money was written off over the first 3 years of the contract.

Not carried away at all. I believe that when a team drafts what they hope will be a Franchise QB, the expectations are, we'll pay him what we have to over time, but we'd like to have him for 10 years or more.

No way that Denver drafted Elway thinking 5 years, or Indy drafted Payton Manning thinking 5 years, or Miami drafted Marino with 5 years in mind. That was old timers (Can't believe I just said that) but same is true for Indy drafting Andrew Luck or Washington Drafting RGIII.

But more to the point, look at teams that picked up starters that were either at the midpoint of their careers or beyond, Denver for Manning for instance.

Manning is a guy that I'd pay today for as long as I can get him to perform well. Cutler isn't in the same class. No even close.

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Cutler's been in the league for 8 years and only two of those years has he had a winning season. He's been to the post season only one year, 2010. I know average looks good to us as we've had so many failures but lets not get carried away and start throwing big money at mr average just to get to 7 or 8 wins.

And don't forget, he never had a winning season at Vanderbilt too.

So, since counting college and the pro's, he's had 3 winning records out of 11 completed seasons (I think he had three in Chicago; '10+'11+'12 - games he played/started in).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Cutler_(American_football)#Career_statistics

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Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

The Bears have a new coach and new offensive system this year.

I don't understand the thinking of some of you guys on here. Cutler is so much better than what we've trotted out at that position for the past 14 years and we actually have some control of whether or not we can get him (unlike the draft) and guys are poo-pooing the idea of signing him? Yeah he's had injuries in Chicago but it has mainly been because before this year he had a terrible pass-protecting line.

I don't think signing a 31 year old QB keeps us from drafting our future QB IF HE IS THERE WHEN WE PICK, but I do think it keeps us from blowing a pick on a guy just because we have to get one. Cutler is one of the 20-or-so legit QBs in the NFL right now and getting him for just money would be a huge coup for the team, as for too long we've been one of the teams on the outside wishing we could play, too.

Heck, if we sign Cutler, we might start getting some calls, too.

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Yeah he's had injuries in Chicago but it has mainly been because before this year he had a terrible pass-protecting line.

Really? I won't pretend that I have seen every Broncos and Bears game that Cutler has played in, but looking at the numbers, except for one really bad year, he certainly hasn't been sacked more than the average QB, and he often been sacked far less than the average QB.

His 1st season was tough, with 13 sacks in only137 pass attempts.

In his 2nd season he played 16 games and was sacked only 27 times in 497 pass attempts.

In his 3rd year he was sacked only 11 times in a staggering 616 pass attempts. That season he threw 25 TD and 18 INT. He had great protection and did not deliver great results. He was then traded.

In his 4th season, his 1st in Chicago, was sacked 35 times in 555 pass attempts. That's certainly not out of the norm.

In his 5th season he had a rough season, being sacked 52 times in only 432 pass attempts.

In his 6th season he played 10 games and was sacked 23 times in 314 pass attempts.

In his 7th season he was sacked 38 times in 484 pass attempts.

This season he has been sacked only 11 times in 265 pass attempts.

Outside of his 2nd season in Chicago, I don't see horrific pass protection. In fact, he has received pretty good protection at times.

Guys like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees get rid of the ball in a hurry, and are largely responsible for at least half of their own pass protection.

Guys like Philip Rivers have been sacked and hit at least as often as Cutler, if not more often.
Rivers averages over 20 TD/season, and roughly 10 INT per year. Cutler has never reached that 2/1 ratio.

Ben Roethlisberger is the poster child for QB abuse.He has been sacked 383 times in 10 seasons. He has been sacked 40 or more times 5 of his 10 seasons in the NFL. He is almost 2/1 TD to INT.(215/118)

While Cutler has not received top 2 pass protection, I think that he has received solid pass protection in most years. He does have a little bit of Ben Roethlisberger in him, in that he tries to hold the ball far too long, far too frequently. He's not responsible for all of the sacks against him, but I would bet that he is responsible for a fair number of them.

I do think that he was doing a better job this year of getting the ball out more quickly though. It is rather ironic that he has been hurt twice this year, while being sacked only 11 times in 8 games. (groin and high ankle sprain)

I don't know or care one or the other.
But,since you've got all these stats,how many times was he knocked on ass in his years with Chicago?
How many times have we,the fans of the lowly Browns,posted just how bad the Bears o-line was/is?I believe ours to better at pass pro.
He's had some pretty crappy OC's to work for there in Chicago.I can't this say with any certainty,but I do believe ours is a bit better.
Bad o-line,crappy coaching,new systems and new crappy coaches.You know the same excuses you guys have applied to every piece of crap QB the Browns have trotted out there since the last millennium.So,maybe he isn't that bad.

Oops,didn't read your last post,you answered one of my questions.

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Imagine our "freedom" in the draft too with Cutler as the top guy signed: so many options. We can go BPA, even trade down with our first pick etc. We control the draft without that "having to draft a QB at all costs somewhere in the 1st" cloud hanging over our head.

Well said and makes perfect sense. With the extra picks we accumulated, especially two in the first that neither would have to go toward a QB. We have two in the 1st, one in the 2nd and 2 in the 3rd. If we could use all those on BPA-type players we could take a real leap.

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If it takes 10-20mil/year for Cutler, you still do it, because he impacts the game more.

And I'm with you on this as well. Saving money accomplishes only that, saving money. Spending the money on the most important position on the field accomplishes so much more.

So spend on Cutler, beef up the OL to protect him and improve the run game, get one more WR and a RB for offense. Use the rest of the picks on the D-side.

Get Cutler and a WR and still have a complete draft to work with. That is a dream-like scenario.

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...but looking at the numbers...

:sigh:

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...but looking at the numbers...

:sigh:

Sigh nothing.

We keep track of numbers because they tell us something.

You can say that a guy is a great QB, but if he throws twice as many INT as TD, he's not going to be around for long. The NFL is made up of numbers. We track players stats routinely. Go to any of the major sports sites and you can see which players are playing the best from a statistical standpoint.

Why?

Because stats reflect production, and production matters. (especially at QB)

Now, would you rather try to debate and/or refute my points, or just make snide comments?

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I don't understand the thinking of some of you guys on here. Cutler is so much better than what we've trotted out at that position for the past 14 years and we actually have some control of whether or not we can get him (unlike the draft) and guys are poo-pooing the idea of signing him?

I would hope this FO could draft someone "so much better than what we've trotted out at that position for the past 14 years".

And how much better would he be than say Campbell or Hoyer and at what cost? I really haven't seen this greatness in cutler or his abilities that seem to garner such high regards from some of our posters.

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Yeah he's had injuries in Chicago but it has mainly been because before this year he had a terrible pass-protecting line.

And I believe it has something to do with him holding the ball. While he doesn't hold it as long as say Weeden does, he certainly doesn't deliver it quickly like Peyton or as we saw Hoyer do either.

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I don't think signing a 31 year old QB keeps us from drafting our future QB IF HE IS THERE WHEN WE PICK, but I do think it keeps us from blowing a pick on a guy just because we have to get one.

So you have a feeling since H&H made a desperation pick in Weeden, that this FO will feel some need to do the same? If they do, they get a failing grade too. Going into next season with Campbell, Hoyer and a developmental pick wouldn't be as bad as some make it sound. And I don't see any type of proof that Cutler is such a huge upgrade here.

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Cutler is one of the 20-or-so legit QBs in the NFL right now and getting him for just money would be a huge coup for the team, as for too long we've been one of the teams on the outside wishing we could play, too.

I believe we can compete with Campbell if we had a running game. Given the Bears have Forte', I don't see Cutlerl being a slam dunk here over Campbell.

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Heck, if we sign Cutler, we might start getting some calls, too.

If our team starts winning, then and only then will we get that. without a running game, cutler isn't going to change that. I think people are concentrating on the wrong thing here. We have seen average or above QB play from both Hoyer and Campbell without a running game.

Fix that and we will see more wins with who we have. If that's the only thing you're after. Overvaluing a guy who has had many years to prove his worth without really carrying a team on his back, like top QB's can do, I believe is fools gold.

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...but looking at the numbers...

:sigh:

Sigh nothing.

We keep track of numbers because they tell us something.

You can say that a guy is a great QB, but if he throws twice as many INT as TD, he's not going to be around for long. The NFL is made up of numbers. We track players stats routinely. Go to any of the major sports sites and you can see which players are playing the best from a statistical standpoint.

Why?

Because stats reflect production, and production matters. (especially at QB)

Now, would you rather try to debate and/or refute my points, or just make snide comments?

Unfortunately, your stats really don't tell the whole story. Cutler's done pretty dang well for what's he's had around him.

I spent the last 10 years in Chicago watching Bears games and that oline was absolutely atrocious. I watched Cutler get brutalized for years. C'mon...9 sacks by the Giants in just the 1st half?? Cutler spent most seasons with Chicago either running for his life or laying on his back. Also, if the oline wasn't horrendous, they wouldn't have 4 new starters on it in Trestman's first year. He and Kromer cleaned house there and now they are pretty dang respectable. Cutler actually has a fighting chance now.

We haven't even talked about the amount of offenses he's had to learn. Or the bum receivers he's had for years, or the ineffective OC's he's had. Dude got a raw deal and imo, anyone that thinks Chicago isn't giving Jay a deal, especially with their offense in it's prime, is crazy.

I think they would be dumb to let him walk if they can manage to keep him under the crap without completely dismantling the team.

Welcome aboard, fanatic. You guys grabbed two of the draft prospects I really liked on the line last year in mills and long, glad they both came along so quickly. Never mind YT's stats regurgitations... He can't help himself.

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I think they would be dumb to let him walk if they can manage to keep him under the crap without completely dismantling the team.

Welcome aboard, fanatic. You guys grabbed two of the draft prospects I really liked on the line last year in mills and long, glad they both came along so quickly. Never mind YT's stats regurgitations... He can't help himself.

Thanks, Clevesteve. I went through all the Browns boards, then lurked here for about 2 weeks and this one really had the best threads by far. Posters here are really very rational. That's hard to find at some boards.

yeah, Long and Mills ended up being great pick ups. I don't know a single Bears fan that isn't stoked about what they have done for the Bears line.

No one is saying stats have no place in a discussion.

But you shouldn't base opinions solely off of them.

Cutler has been getting crushed behind Chicago's terrible lines since he got there.

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...but looking at the numbers...

:sigh:

Sigh nothing.

We keep track of numbers because they tell us something.

You can say that a guy is a great QB, but if he throws twice as many INT as TD, he's not going to be around for long. The NFL is made up of numbers. We track players stats routinely. Go to any of the major sports sites and you can see which players are playing the best from a statistical standpoint.

Why?

Because stats reflect production, and production matters. (especially at QB)

Now, would you rather try to debate and/or refute my points, or just make snide comments?

Unfortunately, your stats really don't tell the whole story. Cutler's done pretty dang well for what's he's had around him.

I spent the last 10 years in Chicago watching Bears games and that oline was absolutely atrocious. I watched Cutler get brutalized for years. C'mon...9 sacks by the Giants in just the 1st half?? Cutler spent most seasons with Chicago either running for his life or laying on his back. Also, if the oline wasn't horrendous, they wouldn't have 4 new starters on it in Trestman's first year. He and Kromer cleaned house there and now they are pretty dang respectable. Cutler actually has a fighting chance now.

We haven't even talked about the amount of offenses he's had to learn. Or the bum receivers he's had for years, or the ineffective OC's he's had. Dude got a raw deal and imo, anyone that thinks Chicago isn't giving Jay a deal, especially with their offense in it's prime, is crazy.

Cutler holds the ball longer than he should. He hasn't been allowed to do that this year, because Trestman has made that a vital part of the offense. Maybe he could improve in that regard, but who can say for sure. Tomorrow will be interesting. QBs making super quick decisions and throws have killed the Browns lately. Tomorrow will tell a great deal as to whether or not Cutler has improved in this regard.

Cutler has had exactly 1 year where he has really been sacked well over the average a QB gets sacked. As Pit stated, he's not a guy who gets the ball out quickly. As I said earlier in this thread, on the post that has people whining about stats .... while he is not Ben Roethlisberger, he does not get the ball out quickly. He never really has.

His OL may not have been perfect, but it also hasn't been horrible. (outside of the 52 sack season) The QB has to contribute to his own protection.

I see your list ,...... "bum receivers" ........ bad OL ..... constantly changing offensive coordinators ...... and that's the list Browns fans use to excuse every failed QB throughout the years.

Cutler had Ron Turner in Chicago for his 1st season. He had Mike Martz for 2010 and 2011. He then had Mike Tice, who was the Bears OL coach under Martz. He has spent 5 years in Chicago, and those were his 1st 4. Trestman took over this year. He has played for some really respected offensive minds.

Our idea of stability here has been having everyone's favorite, Brian Daboll, here for back to back seasons.

As far as his OL, he has had a mix of guys, like many teams have. His OL was truly awful in 2010 when he was sacked 52 times. Other than that I would put them closer to average than awful. Cutler has never been a guy to get the ball out faster than the average QB, yet he has been sacked at roughly what I would consider to be close to league average. They have also been able to consistently run the ball. He has had the ultimate security blanket in Matt Forte by his side for his entire Chicago career.

As far as receivers, he has had a mixed bag, and the team certainly tried too hard to make Devin hester into a full time receiver, but I would certainly rank his receivers well above what we have had in Cleveland. Though, as we have seen, anyone can throw to a guy like Josh Gordon and look good. It's the guys who make those B and C level guys look competent that are the game changers. He had a guy like that in Brandon Marshall last year and this year. He's actually had a pair od game changers in Marshall and jeffrey this year, and his production has been largely unchanged. Last year with those 2 quality receivers, and a top end RB in Forte, and he threw 19 TD and 14 INT. This year with everything in his favor, from OL to receivers, to running game, he has throws 13 TD and 8 INT in 8 games. That is respectable, but hardly overwhelming. I do think that the Bears have relied upon Cutler too much over the years. I think that he could be more successful used as the Niners used Smith in San Francisco. With the defense he has had .... man ... last year he had a defense that scored left and right ..... and great special teams .........

In 2012, his defense and special teams contributed 10 TDs scored. They were also 3rd in points allowed. In 2011 it was 9 TDs scored by the defense and special teams. In 2010 it was only 4, but his defense was ranked 4th in points allowed. . he has had some real advantages throughout his career, but hasn't been able to push a really very good overall team over the brink. He got hurt in his only playoff appearance.

Injuries seem to be the constant in his career. He has also had attitude issues.

As I said earlier ..... I'm not a big Cutler fan. I think that he's a decent QB, but not a guy to throw a massive contract at, and/or buy with heavy duty draft picks. .Others disagree. That's fine. It's the purpose of a discussions board ...... to discuss. That takes 2 sides in most cases.

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The problem is, signing Cutler will require a big $$$, long term deal. It simply isn't worth it.

His back up has better numbers this year. Sure McCown is playing lights out, but if that doesn't tell you the system, coaching and talent there isn't a part in Cutlers somewhat successful stint there, I don't know what will.

Even with a running game, Cutler hasn't played lights out. I just feel some are so desperate for a QB, they'd rather settle for a slight upgrade over Campbell as a short term Band-Aid.

I simply don't see going bonkers over Cutler with a huge, long term investment. And you will have to do that in order to land him.

Fortunately, we don' have to worry about The Browns going after Cutler. I don't believe that Joe Banner would spend that kinda money on a guy you can't get 10 years or more out of.

JMO of course.

I think you are getting a little carried away there. I don't think any front office person really looks beyond maybe a 5 year timeline. Mostly because most contracts are in the 3-5 year range. You don't read about players signing 10 year contracts very often.

What Banner does do is jettison players he feels are nearing the end. Cutler at 31 would fit nicely in to a 5 year plan. Some could argue that Cutler is entering his prime years. QB routinely play well in to their late 30's, in some cases near 40.

If Cutler was 34 right now, I'd agree. Nothing long term. At this point, we would have every reason to believe he could perform at a high level for the duration of the contract.

I'd still look to draft a QB, but maybe not this year. Either way, it wouldn't hurt for a drafted player to sit for 2-3 years before being given much of a real shot at starting. At that point, you let Cutler go or trade him for something. At that point, 3-4 years of solid production would justify the investment and you could structure the deal in a way that the bonus money was written off over the first 3 years of the contract.

Not carried away at all. I believe that when a team drafts what they hope will be a Franchise QB, the expectations are, we'll pay him what we have to over time, but we'd like to have him for 10 years or more.

No way that Denver drafted Elway thinking 5 years, or Indy drafted Payton Manning thinking 5 years, or Miami drafted Marino with 5 years in mind. That was old timers (Can't believe I just said that) but same is true for Indy drafting Andrew Luck or Washington Drafting RGIII.

But more to the point, look at teams that picked up starters that were either at the midpoint of their careers or beyond, Denver for Manning for instance.

Manning is a guy that I'd pay today for as long as I can get him to perform well. Cutler isn't in the same class. No even close.

I never said he is a Manning, but he isn't a drafted player either.

You are telling me he can't work in to a 5 year timeline?

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Now, would you rather try to debate and/or refute my points, or just make snide comments?

I'll debate and/or refute your point.

In football, when stats are thrown up in an effort to describe one player they are completely ignoring that there are 10 other players plus several position coaches that all play a vital part as variables in those stats.

With so many variables to consider, how does one place any one player as the one responsible for those numbers?! Attempting to use stats to describe the efforts/success of that one player is leaving out a whole lot of information not contained within them.

That is why I don't believe anyone can judge the effectiveness of one player based on the numbers accumulated while playing "the ultimate team sport".

In golf? Yes. In tennis? Yes. In the batting box? Yes. In bowling? Yes. In chess? Yes. In football? NO.

All those stats, are just numbers after the fact, a way to use numbers to describe what happened. But they do not explain in any way the whys of how they were obtained.

They are not indicative of one player. They are indicative of the team as a whole, (in this case offense), and all the offensive variables that counted in obtaining those stats. If you attempt to use them by taking the variables out of consideration then they are worthless

That's the main problem with using stats to determine the quality of any one player.

Of course, this is all just my opinion. But an accurate one. Which is my opinion too.

That's fair ....but not really realistic IMO. We, as fans, judge individual players all the time.

We have almost overwhelmingly decided that Weeden is not the answer at QB, even those of us who liked the pick originally, because of the way he has played.

Has he had issues with the OL early on, and with receivers dropping passes and running routes (most likely) incorrectly? Sure. However, despite those problems, he appears to be a guy who is not the answer at QB for this team. He runs hot and cold, and unfortunately, when he gets cold, he gets freezing cold. Almost all of us, the fans, have all made up our minds about Weeden as a player, even though there is some disagreement as to whether or not he can be a successful backup or not.

We look at a player like Little. here is a guy who works hard, who blocks like an OL, and who is, by all accounts, a good teammate. However, his proclivity for dropping passes has hurt him. We' the fans,see that, and we make our decisions as to whether or not we see him being a big part of this team next year ...... or a part of the team at all.

We make decisions regarding how we see players all the time. Stats do play a part in that. In fact, stats play a huge part in football, especially for players in positions like QBs, WRs, and RBs. We look at the completion percentages of QBs. Why? Because below a certain level makes it unlikely that a QB will succeed ... regardless of who is playing around him, especially when looking at a longer term. We look at the RB position, and want and expect a guy to average at least 4 yards/carry. Less than that is really disappointing. We look at YAC for receivers. We look at sacks for pass rushers. A guy like Kruger is deemed a disappointment for some because he doesn't have enough sacks, even though he is playing a very compete game at OLB against both the run and pass.

Stats play a big part of the fan experience in the NFL:. Stats do not tell a complete story, but to pretend that they do not say anything about the player(s) in question is really not realistic IMHO. Sometimes a player with a long track record may have an off year, statistically ..... like Tom Brady this year.. In his case, we can look at the causes for the drop off, and see that he lost his top 5 receivers from last year. There is a reason for his performance (stats) to have dropped off. However, if a guy has played 5 years in the NFL and has consistently performed at a certain level, (stats) then odds are that he will probably continue at that type of level, or maybe even drop off slightly. His stats are, largely, his performance.

I dislike the war on stats that some have declared, as if the numbers a player puts u don't matter at all. Ridiculous. If a QB throws 5 TD and 30 INT for the year, a statistical examination, then he is probably going to have a hard time holding on to his job. There may be reasons for such a performance, at least in part, but if a guy is that bad his help alone probably didn;t get him there. Players tend to even out statistically over the course of a season. Tom Brady started out rough, with 9 TD and 6 INT through his 1st half of the season. However, his track record bought him more time, and the understanding that his young receivers were probably a major factor. Another QB might not get that same consideration. Now, after 13 games, Brady has thrown 21 TD and has only 8 INT. That is beginning to look more like a Brady year, despite the fact that he has youth and inexperience all around him.

I understand what you are trying to say. (I think) Football is definitely a team game, however within that team scheme are individual performances that can be, and on the professional (the NFL team) side of things, have to be appraised and evaluated on an individual basis. I think that we, as fans, also try to do this. We may not always be successful, but that is part of the fun of being a fan.

I still believe what people aren't looking at is how Cutler has had one of the leagues best RB's and still his numbers really aren't much better than Campbell's.

Matt Flynn had a couple of good games and received a three year deal with incentives that reached close to 29 million dollars.

Manning has a contract with Denver for five years at 96 million dollars. That coming off of a very serious neck injury.

I doubt you could get Cutler for less than a four year 60 million dollar deal.

Now if I thought he was the kind of QB who could lead us to a SB, then that's one thing. But I've seen nothing to indicate he can.

The stats YTown are using, only enforce what I have seen. Cutler has a big arm that wows many, yet is streaky and inconsistent over the course of a season.

Say what you will, but he has had Forte', Jeffreys and Marshal this season, along with a much improved OL and his stats are less than optimum.

While stats alone don't tell the story, looking at his play do. His highlight reels are not indicative of the overall picture here. And actually, this inconsistent system argument that's being made, also holds true for Campbell.

I simply haven't seen anything from cutler to believe he's that much of an upgrade over Campbell.

This...

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I doubt you could get Cutler for less than a four year 60 million dollar deal.

Then this...

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I simply haven't seen anything from cutler to believe he's that much of an upgrade over Campbell.

Pit, that doesn't even make sense in the same post.

Most in the league see Campbell as no more than a good backup or a place-holder at best. Most in the league see Cuter as one of the top QBs in football. You see the same as witnessed by your own figures on the kind of contract it would take to sign him. No one, not even you, would consider Campbell at those contract numbers but you do see Cutler there.

So to say that Cutler wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Campbell is puzzling.

Now I realize that you would not advocate paying Cutler that kind of money but at the same time you do see it requiring that kind of money to sign him.

Cutler as one of the top QBs in the league? Man, I don't see that.

I see him as slightly above the middle of the pack, but not a special QB like a Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Luck, Rivers, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Newton, or any of the other top QBs in the NFL. Heck, I'd take Eli Manning, (in most season) Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, and maybe even Alex Smith ahead of Cutler. (and I'm not a big Alex Smith fan)

I look at Cutler and just don't see a special player. I see him as a fairly average guy.

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Cutler as one of the top QBs in the league? Man, I don't see that.

I see him as slightly above the middle of the pack, but not a special QB like a Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Luck, Rivers, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Newton, or any of the other top QBs in the NFL. Heck, I'd take Eli Manning, (in most season) Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, and maybe even Alex Smith ahead of Cutler. (and I'm not a big Alex Smith fan)

I look at Cutler and just don't see a special player. I see him as a fairly average guy.

I'll tend to agree with you. I do love his physical tools, just think there is something missing in his game to get to the next level.

Now you would put him head and shoulders above the bums: Campbell & Weeden right?

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Cutler as one of the top QBs in the league? Man, I don't see that.

I see him as slightly above the middle of the pack, but not a special QB like a Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Luck, Rivers, Stafford, Roethlisberger, Newton, or any of the other top QBs in the NFL. Heck, I'd take Eli Manning, (in most season) Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, and maybe even Alex Smith ahead of Cutler. (and I'm not a big Alex Smith fan)

I look at Cutler and just don't see a special player. I see him as a fairly average guy.

I'll tend to agree with you. I do love his physical tools, just think there is something missing in his game to get to the next level.

Now you would put him head and shoulders above the bums: Campbell & Weeden right?

I would definitely put him way ahead of Weeden and ahead of Campbell. That still doesn't mean that he's a great QB, or that I would put him above maybe middle of the NFL. He has strengths, but he has a lot of weaknesses too. I just don't want to see us fall into the trap of grabbing a guy just because he is better than what we have. I want a guy, especially at QB, who can win a Championship. I don't think that's Cutler.

Man, I am watching the Steelers just drive the field ..... runs ..... sharp passes ...... and I just wonder when we'll see that from a Cleveland Browns team. At halftime that announcers asked how the Steelers do this to a far superior (record-wise) Bengals team, and they used the term "mentally weak" in referring to the Bengals. I think that's true. I also think that it applies to us. However, I also feel that the Steelers trust that they can win games, and we don't yet. We are still in the stage of hoping we can win, especially when bad stuff happens. There is no guarantee we get there. Same for the Bengals.

I look at the Seahawks, and they never collapse, no matter how far down they get. This trait is missing with the Bengals, and with us.

I do think that the QB spot is a huge key, but i don't know if Cutler is that guy to create a "mentally strong" environment. He gets sloppy with the ball far too often, holds the ball too long, too often, and I think that he would get chewed up playing the physical Steelers and Ravens defenses twice a year. (plus the fact that the Bengals always play us close, and generally get after us good on defense at least once per year)

I think that Cutler has very good physical tools, and if physical tools alone would make a great QB, then Cutler would be one of the 1st QBs I would take. However, the mental/emotional side is why I put him closer to the middle of the league, instead of seeing him as a top starter.

My attitude is if you don't have QB play as good as Cutler offers, then you get Cutler. He is the best proven vet out there by a large degree. He would start for more NFL team then not IMO.

Get him....and draft a QB if we feel the need. I would feel pretty darn good with Cutler and Hoyer and some developmental QB in the fold and use our draft picks on receivers, O-linemen, LBers,DBs., RB's.

One thing people need to remember. Franchise QBs are tested on the field. Not drafted. Campbell was somebodys "franchise" qb at one time. Might be able to say the same for Weeden. Lot's of "franchise QB's" have been drafted that never became the face of a franchise.

JMO

YT, I would recommend not engaging that Bengals troll. Dude is a huge turd.

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Is Cutler a truly "elite" QB?...possibly. Is he a "franchise" QB?...likely. Do we have an elite or franchise QB?...no. I would suggest that he would have to be seriously considered...

Ok, I have to ask a question.. if every team needs a franchise QB, and Jay Cutler is allegedly a franchise QB, and if teams just don't let franchise QBs go... then why is Cutler looking for his 3rd team in 8 years?

Why did the Broncos let him go after 3 years when their best option was Kyle Orton? Why would the Bears let him go when their best option is well-traveled journeyman Josh McCown?

Jay Cutler is probably an upgrade over what we have (considering Hoyer is still such a big ????)... but I don't see him as what the Browns need in order to set this franchise up for the long term. Sure, we could use all of our high draft picks this year and hopefully solidify 3 or 4 positions for the future, but that gets us to 9 wins unless we find the right QB....

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My attitude is if you don't have QB play as good as Cutler offers, then you get Cutler. He is the best proven vet out there by a large degree. He would start for more NFL team then not IMO.

Get him....and draft a QB if we feel the need. I would feel pretty darn good with Cutler and Hoyer and some developmental QB in the fold and use our draft picks on receivers, O-linemen, LBers,DBs., RB's.

This is where I am as well. Although DC raises a good point too about Cutler soon to be on his third team.

To be honest I don't think we are going to have to worry about it as I don't see Cutler in the mix for this FO.

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My attitude is if you don't have QB play as good as Cutler offers, then you get Cutler. He is the best proven vet out there by a large degree. He would start for more NFL team then not IMO.

Get him....and draft a QB if we feel the need. I would feel pretty darn good with Cutler and Hoyer and some developmental QB in the fold and use our draft picks on receivers, O-linemen, LBers,DBs., RB's.

This is where I am as well. Although DC raises a good point too about Cutler soon to be on his third team.

To be honest I don't think we are going to have to worry about it as I don't see Cutler in the mix for this FO.

I don't either. I think they feel good enough about Hoyer to go along with an obvious draft choice to not worry about signing a guy in FA. Hoyer doubles as a guy who can start and also mentor (if that even happens) a young QB.

Signing a QB in FA and then going on to do great things is a rare thing in the NFL. I think we should stick to the route that most teams have, and just develop our own guy.

The only issue I see with that plan ... And I really like Hoyer ... Is it's going to take a special player at QB to change the culture here. The culture is really bad. 10 of the last 11 seasons of double digit losses. That is mind boggling.

Can Hoyer be that? I wouldn't bet on it. This team lays down every time there is adversity. That's a culture of losing mentality. Its going to take a special player at QB and coach to flip that mindset...people that don't like to lose and give the entire team confidence that they won't.

That's a good point, but you have to admit..........that this team played w/a tremendous amount of energy when Hoyer was in the line-up. It seemed like the guy infused life into the team.

I am not saying that would translate into a long-term thing, but the spark he brought to the team was very evident.

I agree with you on Hoyer, and I am a big fan of him. Been saying it since preseason game #4. Although it was against inferior comp he demonstrated he understood how to play the position.

I just don't know if I would bet on him being the ultimate guy. Got to see more.

But I loved the way the team responded to him. You could tell they felt like they had a chance to win with him at QB.

Good game yesterday, folks. Haven't seen an update on Haden yet this morning so I hope all is well!!

In response to DC and Rishuz, what makes you guys think Chicago is going to let Cutler walk?

While his game wasn't mistake free by any means, he still ended up with a win and a 102 QBR. Chicago's cap isn't out of control. While I don't see them offering a Romo contract, I sure don't see Cutler asking for it either.

The one people should really be questioning is Peppers. With an $18M cap hit next year and low production this year, he may be toast.

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The only issue I see with that plan ... And I really like Hoyer ... Is it's going to take a special player at QB to change the culture here. The culture is really bad. 10 of the last 11 seasons of double digit losses. That is mind boggling.

Can Hoyer be that? I wouldn't bet on it. This team lays down every time there is adversity. That's a culture of losing mentality. Its going to take a special player at QB and coach to flip that mindset...people that don't like to lose and give the entire team confidence that they won't.

I don't think Hoyer is, but Hoyer has the attitude that we need. I don't think he has all the tools that is needed. He's sat behind Brady in that organization and sees how you have to conduct yourself, especially as the quarterback. I thought his body language and the way he handled himself in interviews was that of someone who gets it.

He led the team on a game winning drive on the road in his first start as a Brown. More than anything, look at the way the team was playing around him... The defense looked great, the offense looked productive, He got everyone involved.

I want that kind of attitude around the team more.

What I'm tired of hearing is how they are tired of losing. Stop talking about it and play like you're sick of losing. Use that as an edge, instead of a crutch.

It's the same crap. We don't get off to a good start, we get a little momentum only to come out and crap ourselves (Detroit game), we go back into the hole, only to come up with a nice win, and when it's time to take the next step, they have the Cincinnati game.

Guaranteed if we win one of these next 2 some of these guys will say "this was for the fans" and that's another phrase I'm sick of hearing, as a fan. How about winning for each other and doing it when it matters?

Rinse, repeat.

I think the eye test is huge for quarterbacks. Just ask yourself if you can see said person on the stage in the middle of the Superdome or the Rose Bowl or wherever holding the Lombardi...

Hoyer? Nah. But he might be able to help a young guy who's a bit more gifted.

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My attitude is if you don't have QB play as good as Cutler offers, then you get Cutler. He is the best proven vet out there by a large degree. He would start for more NFL team then not IMO.

Get him....and draft a QB if we feel the need. I would feel pretty darn good with Cutler and Hoyer and some developmental QB in the fold and use our draft picks on receivers, O-linemen, LBers,DBs., RB's.

I would be ok with that plan as long as Cutler is reasonable in his demands... I am absolutely not comfortable signing him to some 6 year $100 million contract...

I like Hoyer, he has something few of our other QBs have had and it sparked this team.. maybe it's the same thing Holcomb had, he came in for Couch and provided a nice spark and the whole team seemed to play better.. DA had it when he came in for Frye.... neither of them were able to sustain it... who knows, maybe Hoyer can but it would be very risky if that was your only plan.

On paper, Cutler/Hoyer/2nd round pick QB seems like a good way to go for a couple years and you just hope that one of them rises to the top and takes command of the position... but we've been in that position many times... and the results are well documented.. Then again, we've tried it every way imaginable and it hasn't worked yet so... I just don't know, I guess we have no choice but to keep trying until SOMEBODY steps up and takes command of the spot

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My attitude is if you don't have QB play as good as Cutler offers, then you get Cutler. He is the best proven vet out there by a large degree. He would start for more NFL team then not IMO.

Get him....and draft a QB if we feel the need. I would feel pretty darn good with Cutler and Hoyer and some developmental QB in the fold and use our draft picks on receivers, O-linemen, LBers,DBs., RB's.

One thing people need to remember. Franchise QBs are tested on the field. Not drafted. Campbell was somebodys "franchise" qb at one time. Might be able to say the same for Weeden. Lot's of "franchise QB's" have been drafted that never became the face of a franchise.

JMO

The only problem is that you can't just continuously go buy "better" guys. If you do, when you find a great player you either won't have money to go get him, or to keep him.

We don't need great players at every position. No team has that. However, we do need to find a great QB if we want to compete for a championship. (and that should be our goal, and the reason behind every move we make)

I don't like the idea of adding an expensive guy to play the bridge role. A guy like Cutler would demand a huge contract .... and I don't want to limit our future by burdening us with a huge contract.

I get that Cutler would be an upgrade. However, I don't think that he would be a great QB for us, and I worry that he would be just good enough to get us to .500, and just bad enough to keep us there. If that is the case, then I don't want him standing in the way of another QB who might be better. (and maybe we "luck into" a guy .... maybe Hoyer, or a guy who becomes a "Hoyer +", if we don't have a middle of the road placeholder in the way)

JC

When any defense leaves gaping holes and etc in the middle, then any QB going to find them. Game after game and it's the same thing, opposing QB's attack the middle and eat us up.

But eh, no need to try to correct anything

Cutler did look rusty. Many of his throws were high balls.

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Signing a QB in FA and then going on to do great things is a rare thing in the NFL. I think we should stick to the route that most teams have, and just develop our own guy.

True enough, but until you really find the guy who can do all the great things, it's nice to have a guy who can consistently do good things.

Maybe he isn't on the teams radar, some seem to think not. My only point is you don't just go out and find a franchise QB...lot's of things can go wrong. If you can get a guy like Cutler...a solid player with a proven record, something we haven't had in a long time, it is foolish to say you don't want that and keep clinging to the notion that anybody we draft is going to be a real franchise QB in this leage.

You do realize most teams don't have a franchise QB, right?

To me it isn't a title. It is the way they play, and lots of these guys don't play any better than Cutler.

JMO

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Signing a QB in FA and then going on to do great things is a rare thing in the NFL. I think we should stick to the route that most teams have, and just develop our own guy.

True enough, but until you really find the guy who can do all the great things, it's nice to have a guy who can consistently do good things.

Maybe he isn't on the teams radar, some seem to think not. My only point is you don't just go out and find a franchise QB...lot's of things can go wrong. If you can get a guy like Cutler...a solid player with a proven record, something we haven't had in a long time, it is foolish to say you don't want that and keep clinging to the notion that anybody we draft is going to be a real franchise QB in this leage.

You do realize most teams don't have a franchise QB, right?

To me it isn't a title. It is the way they play, and lots of these guys don't play any better than Cutler.

JMO

Yes, I do realize most teams don't have a franchise QB. In fact, I mentioned it last week that half the league is looking for a QB....

Are we sure he's a franchise QB? I understand he has the big arm and he was drafted high, but he's been in the league 7 completed seasons and he has one playoff win and a ton of injuries to show for it. I'm not a big stats guy, but he's never really been high in any of the usual QB stats other than one of the years he was in Denver. He is high in picks as well, a lot. He throws a ton of picks.

I'm not against signing him, but if I had to choose between signing Cutler and drafting a guy in the first round, I'm drafting a guy, and I'm not hesitating on the decision one bit.

If you want a QB for the sake of an upgrade, that's understandable, but I think the term "franchise QB" is being thrown around quite loosely.

I almost laugh out of control at anyone that thinks Cutler would even consider a FA contract here. He'll look at the oline protection, run blocking, and the extrordanary amount QB injuries we've sustained just this year let alone previous years. Top that off with our current RB situation, the perpetual revolving door in the FO & coaching, and add a huge dose of mad Clev. fans booing him before he even walks out on the field. He'll probably go somewhere else, even if it's for fewer years and less money.

Never say never, but I still must laugh at the thought that some would think he'd even consider coming here.

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I almost laugh out of control at anyone that thinks Cutler would even consider a FA contract here. He'll look at the oline protection, run blocking, and the extrordanary amount QB injuries we've sustained just this year let alone previous years. Top that off with our current RB situation, the perpetual revolving door in the FO & coaching, and add a huge dose of mad Clev. fans booing him before he even walks out on the field. He'll probably go somewhere else, even if it's for fewer years and less money.

Never say never, but I still must laugh at the thought that some would think he'd even consider coming here.

especially after he just ripped our defense, he know probably thinks he's gonna have to score a TD everytime cause our D definitely isn't performing like a #7 ranked D.

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I almost laugh out of control at anyone that thinks Cutler would even consider a FA contract here. He'll look at the oline protection, run blocking, and the extrordanary amount QB injuries we've sustained just this year let alone previous years. Top that off with our current RB situation, the perpetual revolving door in the FO & coaching, and add a huge dose of mad Clev. fans booing him before he even walks out on the field. He'll probably go somewhere else, even if it's for fewer years and less money.

Never say never, but I still must laugh at the thought that some would think he'd even consider coming here.

especially after he just ripped our defense, he know probably thinks he's gonna have to score a TD everytime cause our D definitely isn't performing like a #7 ranked D.

We're #8 in yardage for the same reasons we're the #22 Scoring Defense... lots of short fields.

I's just one more example of why you should never look at just yardage to evaluate/rank a defense. Points is what really matters.

To the topic - I hope you're right, Spiral.... anything that helps keep Cutler out of Cleveland is a good thing.

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I almost laugh out of control at anyone that thinks Cutler would even consider a FA contract here. He'll look at the oline protection, run blocking, and the extrordanary amount QB injuries we've sustained just this year let alone previous years. Top that off with our current RB situation, the perpetual revolving door in the FO & coaching, and add a huge dose of mad Clev. fans booing him before he even walks out on the field. He'll probably go somewhere else, even if it's for fewer years and less money.

Never say never, but I still must laugh at the thought that some would think he'd even consider coming here.

Then where is he going to go? I'm just asking because is it going to be that much better with the Jets or the Bills? The Raiders or the Jaguars? The Vikings?

Jet's fans will rip him apart, Jaguars fans don't really care, none of them have a defense rated as highly as ours.. None of the teams that might be willing to pay him the money jump off the page as "ready to win now" any more than ours...

Cutler is much tougher and far better then anyone we have now, or will have next year. He'd be a great addition here. he just isn't going to be looking at Clev. in FA. LOL

Also, It's not the defense he'd be worried about. The offense is, well, offensive!

Why jump all over our defense because they are shutting down late in games while playing hard and fast with no backup talent to speak of to give starters a breather. Just look at the depth on defense, it isn't there. They are all playing for the draft day Super Bowl, and the FO is more then happy about it.

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I almost laugh out of control at anyone that thinks Cutler would even consider a FA contract here. He'll look at the oline protection, run blocking, and the extrordanary amount QB injuries we've sustained just this year let alone previous years. Top that off with our current RB situation, the perpetual revolving door in the FO & coaching, and add a huge dose of mad Clev. fans booing him before he even walks out on the field. He'll probably go somewhere else, even if it's for fewer years and less money.

Never say never, but I still must laugh at the thought that some would think he'd even consider coming here.

Then where is he going to go? ..

Stop making me laugh DC....Not here.

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Cutler is much tougher and far better then anyone we have now, or will have next year. He'd be a great addition here.

I disagree. He may be somewhat better, but I think the bottom-line improvement that we would see would be marginal, at best.

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Stop making me laugh DC....Not here.

That's a non-answer... if you say he won't come here because of this lack of talent, then where is he going to go?

Where is he going to go where he will get better blind side protection than Joe Thomas? Where is he going to go with a better WR than Josh Gordon? Where is he going to go with a better TE than Cameron Jordan?

Are we great? Heck no, but of the teams looking for a QB, who offers a better opportunity? And for the record, I'm not saying there aren't some... you could make a case for the Jets, you could make a case for the Rams if they are done with Bradford... there are cases to be made for a number of teams but I do NOT think they should be in the running and we are some laughing stock out of all the possibilities.

No situation is going to be perfect.

What about Houston? For one, can they afford him? Even teams that don't have QB's, may have cap problems that could keep them away...

Houston would be interesting, but wow would the pressure be on immediately. That team is ready to win now. They're not building like we are, they're pretty much ready to take the next step.

Their situation is better than the Browns, but the Browns situation for an incoming QB isn't horrible. It's the position that's held us back. Factor in that they have 5 picks in the top 100 and could possibly go skill position in heavy, that could be enticing for a QB....

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Stop making me laugh DC....Not here.

That's a non-answer... if you say he won't come here because of this lack of talent, then where is he going to go?

Sorry to break up your little dream world DC. I really don't know, but It's laughable to think he'd even consider here.

He probably stays in ChiTown, maybe a franchise tag, or possibly a new deal. Maybe he follows Shanahan to a team. But as it stands right now, Clev. won't be on his short list, I know that.

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Cutler is much tougher and far better then anyone we have now, or will have next year. He'd be a great addition here.

I disagree. He may be somewhat better, but I think the bottom-line improvement that we would see would be marginal, at best.

At Best?? LOL, even Tim Tebow would give us marginal improvement

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Cutler is much tougher and far better then anyone we have now, or will have next year. He'd be a great addition here.

I disagree. He may be somewhat better, but I think the bottom-line improvement that we would see would be marginal, at best.

At Best?? LOL, even Tim Tebow would give us marginal improvement

Yeah, now you're not even remotely credible with what you're spewing.

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This...

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I doubt you could get Cutler for less than a four year 60 million dollar deal.

Then this...

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I simply haven't seen anything from cutler to believe he's that much of an upgrade over Campbell.

Pit, that doesn't even make sense in the same post.

Most in the league see Campbell as no more than a good backup or a place-holder at best. Most in the league see Cuter as one of the top QBs in football. You see the same as witnessed by your own figures on the kind of contract it would take to sign him. No one, not even you, would consider Campbell at those contract numbers but you do see Cutler there.

So to say that Cutler wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Campbell is puzzling.

Now I realize that you would not advocate paying Cutler that kind of money but at the same time you do see it requiring that kind of money to sign him.

What I see is someone with a much stronger arm than Campbell. I see a position that's in demand where many teams will be willing to over pay.

Is he an upgrade over Campbell? Yes I believe he is. But as DC has mentioned, he's on his third team when their options really weren't very impressive.

I just don't see Cutler as a SB type QB. Someone who may get you to the playoffs every couple of years or so, but in the end will always end up leaving you short.

Do I think our record would be better? Yes. Do I think Cutler may be a powder keg when things go south? Yes.

I believe someone will vastly over pay for someone that falls well short of what they hope to get out of Cutler. I just don't want that someone to be us.

JMHO

I still believe what people aren't looking at is how Cutler has had one of the leagues best RB's and still his numbers really aren't much better than Campbell's.

Sorry just browsed I think I know what this debate is about. But just by that statement there Pit...sorry you lost what ever debate you are in. Probably their stats are close but for some reason I think Cutler has a crap load more TDs. As far as what kind of QB they are one is actually a QB. I think Cutler here in our Oh with our weapons and or growing youth. We have a shot at going deep in the playoffs. Deeper then he with Chicago.

We'll find our RB that won't be a hard task...actually I'd like to get more looks at this kid Baker. The few reps he got he looks much better than anything we've seen so far this season. Our OL is better our Defense is better. The 3rd down stuff will get fixed.

But to compare Cutler to Campbell??? cause their stats are similar.

Thats like guys who were comparing Weeden's rookie stats with Payton Manning last season and saying well they are in the same league. Heck Josh McCown is better than Campbell.

Sometimes I wonder what exactly do you guys see. Cutler puts so many of his passes Right on the MONEY to get the ultimate YAC - Cutler actually goes through progressions - Cutler actually looks off a Safety...my goodness how can there be a debate about this - Cutler is the real deal. Actually this is the best offense he has been in Trestman is as advertised.

This might be the first time Cutler doesn't have to do everything himself with a horrendous OL.

JMHO - yes if he goes FA it will cost a lot of money that is for sure. I would love to have him here. We should be so lucky which basically means it won't happen cause we just are not that lucky...lol

When we have two really graet WR's instead of one and a RB the quality of Matt Forte', maybe we can revisit this.

As of now, Cutler has a much better supporting cast than we can give him.

And in case you missed it, josh McCown played better than Cutler with that same supporting cast.

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Stop making me laugh DC....Not here.

That's a non-answer... if you say he won't come here because of this lack of talent, then where is he going to go?

I also want us to sign him, but think that's a longshot.

How about the Texans? Good OL, good runners, top WR, up and coming no2 WR, decent TE.
If Cutler doesn't sign with us, then I hope it's the Texans, as this would mean we could get any QB we'd want in the draft via trade up to 1. Cutler or Bridgewater

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I'm not against signing him, but if I had to choose between signing Cutler and drafting a guy in the first round, I'm drafting a guy, and I'm not hesitating on the decision one bit.

Maybe I am not being clear. I am not saying we don't draft a QB. If we see a guy who we like and feel he has the tools, draft him. I have no problem with that. The problem I have is most of these guy who are drafted end up nowhere near being a true franchise QB. Too much of a gamble to pin your hopes on that, especially when there is a possibility of gaining a really solid player at QB like Cutler. You bring him in and you let a Johnny manziel or whoever prove they are better than Cutler. Don't make them prove they are better than The QBs we have on the current roster. It shouldn't be very hard to prove they are better than Weeden or Campbell. Hoyer is a question mark.

Sure, it's going to cost money, but so what? We have to spend money anyway to meet CBA agreed minimums and I don't see any real percentage in being below the cap. You manage it. There are ways to front load deals on a player like Cutler who you are not sure if you will even want him 3-4 years down the line. Give him a 1 year no cut deal (meaning the first year of however long a deal you sign him to) and make his 1st year salary 10 million bucks if you have to in order to eliminate dead money some years down the road if you do part ways....oh...I am just throwing numbers around for illustration purposes. I don't know what it will take, but it's not like being way under the cap as we have for the last decade has paid dividends.

In the end, I would rather KNOW I have a QB like Cutler and HOPE the newly drafted guy ends up as projected rather than on the ever increasing plie of ex-franchise QBs.

JMO

As of now, Cutler has a much better supporting cast than we can give him.

Yeah I realized that after I read it but submitted it anyways, thought I would throw you a bone...although you are looking at our weapons with Campbell as our QB...Cutler would make them all look better. I think we do have a better OL and I know we have a better defense.

McCown...he did well - played better or put up better stats...sometimes you guys just get drawn in by stats as the end all. So Trestman has to be the biggest idiot as he chose to SIT the better QB in the middle of a playoff run with 3 games left??? He knows exactly who he had. It took a quarter for the rust to wear off Cutler. Its not the completions...it the accuracy how those mid range and short range throws are in perfect spots.

JMHO again we would be luck to get Cutler...he's got about 5-7 prime years left.

And somehow you forgot to address the fact he has Forte in the running game and has been traded away twice already.

Trestman stated all along that as soon as Cutler was healthy he would be the starter. Some coaches let the play of others unseat a QB with an injury and some don't. Plus the fact Cutler wasn't playing to the level he should lose his job.

They really have lightening in a bottle here. They pulled McCown when he was playing lights out. Now they can get something of value for him.

I really think all the Cutler talk is silly. If the Bears believe he is their QB, he won't be going anywhere. If they don't and he's off to his "fourth team"? That speaks volumes.

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And somehow you forgot to address the fact he has Forte in the running game and has been traded away twice already.

Trestman stated all along that as soon as Cutler was healthy he would be the starter. Some coaches let the play of others unseat a QB with an injury and some don't. Plus the fact Cutler wasn't playing to the level he should lose his job.

They really have lightening in a bottle here. They pulled McCown when he was playing lights out. Now they can get something of value for him.

I really think all the Cutler talk is silly. If the Bears believe he is their QB, he won't be going anywhere. If they don't and he's off to his "fourth team"? That speaks volumes.

Fourth team really? I must have missed one. Drafted by Denver in 2006 with the eleventh pick overall. Then traded to ChiTown in 2009 after the Coach McDaniels / QB Cassel trade talk debacle.

But I agree with most of what you are saying. Except you miss the fact that Cutler was playing hurt once again earlier this year because of poor oline protection.

As perfect as a fit that he would be here, Cutler won't be looking at Cleve in FA and will prob stay with Da Bears regardless. Maybe McCown will get traded here and play lights out for us. I Doubt that also though. Seems Cleveland is where QB's go to die.

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Cutler is much tougher and far better then anyone we have now, or will have next year. He'd be a great addition here.

I disagree. He may be somewhat better, but I think the bottom-line improvement that we would see would be marginal, at best.

At Best?? LOL, even Tim Tebow would give us marginal improvement

Yeah, now you're not even remotely credible with what you're spewing.

Didn't think purple was required for that one.

I was wrong.

he won't be going anywhere.

I think the odds are he won't be available. 4th team...bring it on, it would be cause he chose to and the Bears think not to Franchise tag him??? But probably will be the case.

I don't wish to sign him if he is franchised.

As for Forte...I had a brain fart and couldn't remember his name so delete what I was writing and moved on...lol

But all year I'm told how irrelevant RB is now a days...all of a sudden it is relevant? Actually this if the first year that he's getting DECENT pass protection in his entire career. btw...4th team? Denver and Bears...who is the other team? Again mental block on that.

Again...we would be so so lucky to get a QB of the caliber of Cutler. I doubt it...if FA Assuming he has ties there I would think he would want to sign with the Titans...is that his hometown - I know he went to Vandy.

JMHO n ?

I read on PFF that Cutler has the LEAST, YAC in the entire league for guys who qualify.

I don't see Cutler as having had poor protection this year. His OL has looked solid when I have seen him play, and when I have seen McCown play. Their OL had given up only 22 sacks coming into our game against the Bears, and they escaped with only 2 sacks. They also did not get him hit a lot against us.

I think that his OL gets a lot of undue flack. People remember when they allowed 50+ sacks several years ago, but they have been NFL average since. Plus, Cutler tends to hold the ball longer than most QBs. It is much like Roethlisberger ...... he gets his OL blamed for everything back to Pearl Harbor, when Roethlisberger holds the ball so long that he makes his OL look worse. Cutler has done the same to his Bears OL over the years. I remember the 2006 - 1st game of 2007 here in Cleveland, where the Browns OL "sucked". We had Charlie Frye at QB, and he processed things slowly, which caused our OL to look horrible. When DA moved into the starting role, they only allowed some ridiculously low number of sacks the rest of the way. IIRC, it was something like 6 in game 1, and 12 or 13 the rest of the way. The OL looked worse because of the QB's play. When DA came in and started dropping sne getting the ball out when his back foot hit, the OL suddenly looked great.

The QB is a partner along with the OL in his own pass protection.He has to help himself at times.

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I don't see Cutler as having had poor protection this year. His OL has looked solid when I have seen him play, and when I have seen McCown play. Their OL had given up only 22 sacks coming into our game against the Bears, and they escaped with only 2 sacks. They also did not get him hit a lot against us.

I think that his OL gets a lot of undue flack. People remember when they allowed 50+ sacks several years ago, but they have been NFL average since. Plus, Cutler tends to hold the ball longer than most QBs. It is much like Roethlisberger ...... he gets his OL blamed for everything back to Pearl Harbor, when Roethlisberger holds the ball so long that he makes his OL look worse. Cutler has done the same to his Bears OL over the years. I remember the 2006 - 1st game of 2007 here in Cleveland, where the Browns OL "sucked". We had Charlie Frye at QB, and he processed things slowly, which caused our OL to look horrible. When DA moved into the starting role, they only allowed some ridiculously low number of sacks the rest of the way. IIRC, it was something like 6 in game 1, and 12 or 13 the rest of the way. The OL looked worse because of the QB's play. When DA came in and started dropping sne getting the ball out when his back foot hit, the OL suddenly looked great.

The QB is a partner along with the OL in his own pass protection.He has to help himself at times.

JUST STOP SAYING THIS!! The previous olines were not "decent" or "average". They were ranked 30th last year, 32nd in 2011, 31st in 2010, can't find 2009, but I'm sure they were in the crapper then too.

2009 - Cutler tied for 7th in most sacked QB
2010 - 1st most sacked
2011 - partial season - averaging roughly 2.3 sacks per game
2012 - 5th most sacked

so 4 years with the Bears and he's in the top 10 QB's sacked in 3 out of 4 years. while Cutler is not blameless, that oline was the main problem. Anyone that actually watched the Bears oline over the years could tell you this. Clay Matthews ripped through J'Marcus Webb like toilet paper on a regular basis.

AGAIN......4 new starters on the line with Trestman and Kromer being in their first year. did that happen b/c of Cutler holding the ball too long?? NO! it happened b/c they STUNK. Frank Omiyale, Orlando Pace, Gabe Carimi, J'Marcus Webb, Edwin Williams, Chilo Rachal....all freaking BUMS! Only Lance Louis was "average", I'll give you that.

you don't like or want Cutler. that's great. I respect that. but to call the Bears' olines average is just a TOTAL REACH.

A lot of the knowledgeable Bears fans I know tend to agree that it was a mix of both. Horrible OL play, Cutler holding on to the ball too long, and not enough of the previous coaching staff being imaginative and maybe moving Cutler around a bit. He's not RG3, but he's got good legs.

It was a bad mix of everything that led to him getting roughed around a lot.

Cutler would definitely enjoy playing behind our OL, but he also wouldn't have the benefit of a RB who can catch with the best of them, and 2 stud WR's.

Although Gordon and Cameron aren't chopped liver.

I would be perfectly fine with the team throwing money at him, as long as they stuck to their guns and drafted a QB too.

I won't put words in his mouth, but he did say "... having had poor protection THIS year".

Other years, maybe not so much. I don't keep up with Chicago much but I have watched some games of theirs this year. QB had stable protection IMO. When teams bring heat, the QB reads it and audibles to a screen and Forte is just a monster in the screen game.

Not sure who runs the better screen game, Chicago with Forte or the Saints with Sprools/Thomas?

Well ... I had a whole reply typed out and lost the damned thing.

Anyway ...... here we go again ....

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2009 - Cutler tied for 7th in most sacked QB

And he threw the 4th most passes. That's a win in my eyes.

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2010 - 1st most sacked

As I said, awful, awful season.

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2011 - partial season - averaging roughly 2.3 sacks per game

26th in pass attempts, and tied for 25th in sacks allowed. Kind of average.

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2012 - 5th most sacked

Yep. Rougher season, mainly because he only threw the ball 434 times.

This year he has been sacked roughly once every 23 pass attempts. That is marvelous pass protection, and has improved in no small part because he has been working on getting the ball out quicker. He also has 2 superstar WRs and a very good TE, to go along with Matt Forte at RB. Man, that's an all start cast, and he's not playing at an all start level.

It does appear that he is getting the ball out quicker this year, and I do recall hearing him say that this was a real point of emphasis by the new coaching staff when they put in their WC offense. . I don't know how he would do in another offense that is more of a down the field passing offense again. That would be a major concern for me.

We saw how Weeden struggled getting the ball out quickly this year. He looked slower this year than last, despite being in an offense that should have suited him better. That is a concern for me regarding Cutler.

You and Spiral are right. If he moves on it would be his third team. My bad.

And Tab, I believe that you have misunderstood something, or maybe I have.

I've seen people say you don't need to make a huge investment to land a good RB. I haven't seen much of anyone suggest, much less say that having a solid running game to achieve a balanced O isn't important.

But we both know that.

Play action is a wonderful tool if you have enough of a running game to sell it. On third and short, having a running game helps you move the chains to sustain drives. Having a balanced attack helps keep opposing D's on their heels.

And maybe, just maybe, the run blocking is just as important as who is running the ball.

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And maybe, just maybe, the run blocking is just as important as who is running the ball.

That's just crazy talk.

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I see both sides to this argument. I understand why some think Cutler would be great here. I understand the argument why he wouldn't.

Cutler is an enigma. If you wanna use stats as the end-all, then heck no.........you don't want him on your team.

If you want a guy who fits this offense perfectly, then you do want him on your team.

I think the thing w/Cutler is this...........while he has not produced great numbers, there is no question that this guy has every tool in the book. If someone can harness that talent, than you are going to end up w/a top tier QB. Very few guys can match his physical abilities. I mean--------very few, as in.........Rodgers and Luck.

There is a reason why he was drafted so high. There is a reason the Bears spent so much for him. There is a reason why Trestman wanted him to start even though McCown was playing great. It's because of his tremendous ability and skills.

On the other hand, it's troubling that that he often comes up short, whether it be from injury, his supporting cast, boneheaded decisions, his personality......the fact is that he comes up short very often.

I understand the argument from both sides. I'm just not sure how either side can be so emphatic when pleading their case.

I understand that as well, but at one point you have to make a decision. It boils down to if he would add something or if he wouldn't.

Either way, fine, I just don't want to hear about the money. We are MILLIONS under the cap and suck. I say we try to close that gap and see if maybe that helps. It's like we keep saving it for a rainy day.....I don't know about you, but I'd say it is raining pretty damn hard.

I am not talking about spending for spendings sake, but Cutler is wise dollars spent. At least you are getting something better than average to crap.

Plus, with the CBA and slotted rookie contracts, you have to spend money on vets . I'd rather spend 40 mil on Jay Cutler over rookie Sam Bradford.....or todays Sam Bradford.....another non franchise, franchise QB to lump on the heap..

My point wasn't about not signing him. Not at all, Peen.

Not sure where you got that from.

I was making a point for both sides and to establish that Jay Cutler is truly an enigma.

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My point wasn't about not signing him. Not at all, Peen.

Not sure where you got that from.

I was making a point for both sides and to establish that Jay Cutler is truly an enigma.

Cool....I just get tired of this money talk, like people are talking about their money, and the guy isn't friggen Petyon Manning....well no crap.....but he has come closer to being a franchise player than many of the others.....he is at least pretty damn good. Give him Megatron and he is as good as Stafford IMO. Would people not want Stafford? It's like some people are expecting the next greatest QB ever.

Folks, that probably isn't going to happen. Especially this year. Now I read that Bridgewater isn't a lock to enter, and I don't even think he is all that good. I'd take Hundley over him, and I don't really want to take Hundley.

This is a bad year to be taking early first round QB's.

How much would the Browns be willing to shell out for Cutler's services? And also it does not just come down to money. But to also being clutch in the process and a playoff run!

This year is, arguably, one of Cutler's better years in the NFL. (overall) He is in a WCO type offense, and is getting the ball out quicker than he ever has.

I think that my problem with Cutler, more than anything, is that even now, after what ..... 8 seasons ........ there is still so much unknown about him. He is still, in many ways, a projection. That's why he could be available though.

I dunno. If we sign him, then, obviously, I hope that he is wildly successful. I don't see us signing him if the front office thinks that he's the guy to help turn us into an 8-8 team though. They want a Championship level QB, and if they don't see cutler as that, then I don't think that they are going to take stop gap measures.

Every FO talks a big game, but they know that at some point, they have to show a better record for it, esp in Cleveland and with a new owner that wants what was promised.

If they decide not to pursue him and we have another bad season with a QB caroussel, they won't hear the end of it. Pitchforks will be out and probably rightfully so.

All this elitist talk of Blue Chip and Championship caliber players Sounds nice, Dream big style, but this team can't go from perennial 5 win team to SB contender. There are steps between, necessary one's, to be taken in Order to change the attitude/culture and make our good players start to believe and step up as leaders.

Cutler represents the next step, even if it just means being a WC contender. It'd be a huge step forward. If he becomes available, there's no excuse not to land him

I agree. To play off of Coach Mora....Championships? Championships? You want to talk Championships!?

How about we simply move the needle in that direction rather than be stuck as laughing stocks?

No way would I want Stafford .. way to RECKLESS with the ball ... also very very inaccurate at times ... this guys is WAY OVERRATED IN MY BOOK ... as is Cutler ...

both those guys look great cause they have cannons for arms ... but neither of them have EVER BEEN CONSISTENT IN THEIR CAREERS ....

and as great as there arms are ... they have 2 cent heads ... bad decision after bad decision after bad decision ...

Crap guys .... Cutler has been outplayed by a career BUM ... and why .... cause one turns the ball over and the other don't ...

and money has to be a factor ... it has too ... u can't just give away money under the cap when u know its a major mistake .. and that's what Cutler is .. a MAJOR MISTAKE ....

I would much rather see what we have in Hoyer than go out and spend the ludicrous amount of money it would take to get Cutler .. at least Hoyer's an unknown ....... naaaa ... let someone else overspend for Jay to come in and lead there team no where ...

OVERRATED!!!!!

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j/c:

I see both sides to this argument. I understand why some think Cutler would be great here. I understand the argument why he wouldn't.

Cutler is an enigma. If you wanna use stats as the end-all, then heck no.........you don't want him on your team.

If you want a guy who fits this offense perfectly, then you do want him on your team.

I think the thing w/Cutler is this...........while he has not produced great numbers, there is no question that this guy has every tool in the book. If someone can harness that talent, than you are going to end up w/a top tier QB. Very few guys can match his physical abilities. I mean--------very few, as in.........Rodgers and Luck.

There is a reason why he was drafted so high. There is a reason the Bears spent so much for him. There is a reason why Trestman wanted him to start even though McCown was playing great. It's because of his tremendous ability and skills.

On the other hand, it's troubling that that he often comes up short, whether it be from injury, his supporting cast, boneheaded decisions, his personality......the fact is that he comes up short very often.

I understand the argument from both sides. I'm just not sure how either side can be so emphatic when pleading their case.

CAUSE I'M RIGHT!!!!!!!! ........

DESPITE all the tools u talk about (and u are 100% correct when talking about those tools) ... the guys never been successful .. and this year he has it all on O and was clearly outplayed by a career BUM .... there's a reason for that ...

Add to that the amount of money your going to spend on the guy and u have a recipe for disaster ..

but then again U have always been more risk adverse than me with QB's ... by that I mean U accept the mistakes that come with the big plays that the strong armed risked takers produce where as I'm not so willing to make that trade off ..

naaaa ... before I spend that kind of money on cutler I would much rather see what we have in Hoyer ....

but if Chad and Norv decide to go get him ... U won't hear a peep from me .. cause those guys are pretty gosh darn good with their QB's ..

This "let's see what we have" attitude is a big part of why the Browns have sucked for years. I can't believe even the fans have bought into that at this stage. I was ok with it after the Mangini fiasco of no talent and high age roster that ate up cap money. That needed two offseason's time, but now? We have enough talent to win, just look at our halftime record and scores at the beginning of the 4th, we have a young roster and we have the most cap space around....why still be the "training ground" for "who knows what they have" talent?

We need KNOWN quantities, NOT more unknowns. That's why I criticized the FO for ammassing even more rookies instead of going out and get some vets in here.

What's the problem in getting Cutler and keep Hoyer as the backup? Why do we always have to find out the hard way with no contingency plan? This a pro sports team, not some farm team. If you want a team looking more like a PRO team, how about signing some more professional players to it?

This fanbase needs as much a "tude" change as the players/coaches.

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Every FO talks a big game, but they know that at some point, they have to show a better record for it, esp in Cleveland and with a new owner that wants what was promised.

If they decide not to pursue him and we have another bad season with a QB caroussel, they won't hear the end of it. Pitchforks will be out and probably rightfully so.

And if they pay Cutler big bucks and he comes in here and does the same things he has always done, as in turning the ball over, missing games w/injuries, throwing tantrums on the sidelines, and losing a bunch of games..........then what?

The fans will be out w/pitchforks.

Look at the bright side. You will be leading the charge either way.

You probably are right. I was just trying to be objective.

Cutler is an enigma and he makes offensive coaches salivate. They all think they are the one who can turn this guy into Aaron Rodgers.

When I first heard he might be available, I was thinking how perfectly he would fit Norv's offense. His skill set amazes me. However, the more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards us not going after him.

We would have to pay him a hefty salary. We would become married to him, kinda like Washington is to RGIII right now. We wouldn't get to see Hoyer develop. We probably would not draft a qb. All of those things could prove to be devastating if Cutler doesn't play lights out.

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the guys never been successful .. and this year he has it all on O and was clearly outplayed by a career BUM .... there's a reason for that ...

I think Vers is right that Cutler is an enigma... while everybody says he was clearly outplayed, he is 5-4, McCown is 3-2 as starters... no difference.

Maybe McCown is an enigma too.. he's in his 11th year and every year in which he has thrown more than 170 passes he has had double digit INTs.. this year in 220 attempts he has 1.... I think it is more a case of McCown being in some kind of temporary zone similar to what Matt Flynn did a few years ago in one game..

Cutler will be 31 going into camp next year (oddly enough he's 5 months younger than Weeden) so if he's the guy, he could easily be the guy for 5 or 6 years....

If we started next season with Cutler/Hoyer/3rd round pick, I would not be terribly upset because I think it makes us immediately better... I just want to find the long term solution.

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Every FO talks a big game, but they know that at some point, they have to show a better record for it, esp in Cleveland and with a new owner that wants what was promised.

If they decide not to pursue him and we have another bad season with a QB caroussel, they won't hear the end of it. Pitchforks will be out and probably rightfully so.

And if they pay Cutler big bucks and he comes in here and does the same things he has always done, as in turning the ball over, missing games w/injuries, throwing tantrums on the sidelines, and losing a bunch of games..........then what?

Then we still have Saint Hoyer...

What if the FO does another round of sitting on their hands and we go in with Hoyer and Campbell and Hoyer turns out to be a UDFA journeyman he was before those "magic" two, incredibly overrated games?

Then what? The 3rd/4th round rookie hope again? Good luck with that

The question becomes: proven enigma Cutler and a 10-15mil cap hit or unproven who knows what Hoyer, whom you'd have to pay/committ to too if he's the one, as 2014 is a contract season

I can't believe anyone would want to rather "see what we got" with Hoyer than taken a proven above AVG NFL QB. Insane.

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And if they pay Cutler big bucks and he comes in here and does the same things he has always done, as in turning the ball over, missing games w/injuries, throwing tantrums on the sidelines, and losing a bunch of games..........then what?

Jay Cutler has only been under .500 as a starting QB once in the last 6 years (7-9 in 2009).. so I wouldn't say he's "losing a bunch of games".. He might be costing his team a game here or there but in that 6 year stretch he was 47-34... the Browns were 27-67...

As for being injured, he missed 6 games in 2011 and he missed 5 games this year... every other year he has started either 15 or 16 games...

For me it really does come down to price. I think we are immediately better with Jay Cutler than just about any other available option (that's considering that Hoyer is still a huge unknown).. if he wants top 5 money, no way. If he wants top 10 money, I'm listening, if he wants upper half money, sign him.

We would have to give Cutler a massive contract. The financial side of the equation definitely, and always, factors into things. If we have to give Cutler a 5 year deal worth $60 or $70 million, with $30 - $40 in guarantees, then is he a good deal .... especially if he is a stopgap, rather than a franchise guy?

What if we sign him and get what he has given the Bears, or worse? We would then be stuck with him for at least half of his contract, whether or not he was the right guy to lead this team or not. That contract then could become an anchor weighing the team down, much like 1st overall pick rookie QB contracts used to do. Our financial flexibility would be gone, and we might them be unable to sign other players who could help the team more than a middle of the pack starting QB who has accomplished very little in his career.

We are going to have to start making decisions about players like Haden, Mack, Ward, Taylor, Sheard, Cameron, and Skrine. Yes we have cap space, but that doesn't mean that we can just throw it away on a so-so QB. If we want to make top dollar upgrades, we better make sure that the player in question is worth it. I do not believe that Cutler is worth it.

I think he definitely gets top10 money just from the standpoint that he will have the last deal signed. Tends to always get an inflated status that way.

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If we have to give Cutler a 5 year deal worth $60 or $70 million, with $30 - $40 in guarantees, then is he a good deal .... especially if he is a stopgap, rather than a franchise guy?

that would be a good deal for Cutler.

most recent QB deals:
Flacco 6yr/$120mil - $52mil guaranteed
Brees 5yr/$100mil - $60.5mil guaranteed
Ryan 6yr/$113mil - $59mil guaranteed
Romo 6yr/$108mil - $55mil guaranteed

Now, Cutler likely won't get the same money, but he likely will get a cut below those numbers.

But, just wanted to level-set where the market has been because Cutler is likely looking at more like a 5yr deal for $80mil w/ $30mil guaranteed.

Cutler wouldn't be worth that kind of money.

I don't get the impression that this regime would throw that kind of money at a good-but-not great QB. Banner has always been very smart with the money. That contract would be anything but "smart."

In the end the Bears are going to work something out, one way or another. They can't really afford to let him go because there's no obvious replacement. Even if someone were to say that McCown has played well enough for a shot, the dude will be 35 before the season starts.

So what about the draft? They won't be picking anywhere near where they can land a blue-chip guy (as if there were more than one blue-chip guy in this draft).

If Cutler isn't signed he's tagged. The Bears can't go any other way, but if they have an insane moment and lack of judgement, we'd be fools to throw that kind of money at a turnover machine of a QB with a history of mental issues.

Cutler only makes sense if the money is right, but there's no set of factors which can come together here where the money makes sense.

People, we're better served spending our thoughts on QB's in the draft or off some other teams bench. Cutler isn't happening here. It doesn't add up.

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What if we sign him and get what he has given the Bears,

A 39-26 record in games he started? Yea, that would suck.

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What if we sign him and get what he has given the Bears,

A 39-26 record in games he started? Yea, that would suck.

Yeah but ......

We don't have a defense and special teams scoring 10 TD one year, and 8 another .......

For all of the complaints about the team around Cutler that some have, he has been blessed with a marvelous defense (and one that routinely scores TDs) and a great run game. Those 2 things alone will generally get a team to .500 or above.

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If Cutler isn't signed he's tagged. The Bears can't go any other way, but if they have an insane moment and lack of judgement, we'd be fools to throw that kind of money at a turnover machine of a QB with a history of mental issues.

First, let me point out the contradiction in this statement. You are saying the Bears have nothing at QB if they let Cutler go, and letting him walk would be "an insane moment" and that they would as a last resort pay him the average of the top-5 QB contracts in the NFL to keep him. You then immediately say they we would "be fools" to throw that kind of money at him. If you will allow that "having nothing" at QB is roughly equivalent to what we have at QB, then you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Previously The Bears GM had indicated that the Franchise Tage wasn't a workable situation for them, but seems to be backing off of that a little. Still seems like he's not interested in Franchising Cutler.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ble-for-cutler/

Emery says franchise tag isn’t off the table for Cutler

Posted by Mike Florio on December 17, 2013, 11:14 PM EST
Cutler
AP
Earlier this month, Bears G.M. Phil Emery discussed the challenges associated with using the franchise tag on quarterback Jay Cutler. Many interpreted Emery’s comments as reflecting a decision to not use the tag on Cutler.

On Monday night, Emery made it clear that the tag isn’t off the table.

“I would say ‘disregard completely’ is an oversimplification of what the franchise tag is in relation to contracts and caps and player contracts overall,” Emery said in an appearance on WSCR radio in Chicago. “What I had said before was that just make sure when you look at the franchise tag [you know] what that means from a quarterback’s contract perspective and the amount of room and space that it eats up. It’s not necessarily a solution. It’s not the first thing we would think about. The first think we’d think about if we wanted to sign a player is a long-term contract. That fits better in our cap situation.”

The bigger problem is that the franchise tag provides the starting point for a long-term deal. With the ability to make $16 million guaranteed in 2014, why would Cutler wants anything less than $30 million guaranteed in the first two years, or less than $50 million guaranteed in the first three?

Not using the tag gives Cutler the ability to let the market set his value. And it gives Cutler the ability to take less money from another team (like the Vikings) if he wants to stick it to the Bears.

That’s the real risk for the Bears. If they don’t use the tag and try to let the market set his value, Cutler could choose to ultimately take less than the Bears have offered because they refused to make an offer driven by the franchise tag.

He can go to any team and get paid any xyz amount, as long as it isn't the Browns.

Ankle, head, thumb, knee, neck, groin, ribs are all things that he's been pegged with in terms of injury - he's a paper cup or piece of fragile glass. I forget what year it was (2011 I think?) but it was all I could read was how Bear's fans and etc heavily questioned his toughness and so forth.

Not going to buy a Ferrari just to make the payments on it and keep it parked in the garage.

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First, let me point out the contradiction in this statement. You are saying the Bears have nothing at QB if they let Cutler go, and letting him walk would be "an insane moment" and that they would as a last resort pay him the average of the top-5 QB contracts in the NFL to keep him. You then immediately say they we would "be fools" to throw that kind of money at him. If you will allow that "having nothing" at QB is roughly equivalent to what we have at QB, then you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

There's no contradiction as the two situations are very different.

We are a rebuilding team without an obvious QB to build around and we aren't going anywhere with the overall talent level of this team.

The Bears are a playoff team who are built for the here-and-now and can't afford at this point in time to start over with a young QB who may not be ready to win for a few seasons.

These are two very different teams with two very different sets of circumstances. The ownership would get absolutely killed if they replaced Cutler with an unproven kid.

Basically, they are in a no-win situation with Cutler. Either overpay him and hope he gets better at age 31 or don't and take the huge PR hit while subsequently hoping they can catch lightning in a bottle with a draftee.

As for the Browns, the equation of throwing franchise money at a non-franchise, 31-year old QB when we're clearly a rebuilding team doesn't jive.

To change the example which makes it clear...If a team like the Bears let's Cutler go in favor of an unproven rookie they look far different than if they are a team which is tearing things down with a new regime and rebuilding.

The Bears don't have a choice on Cutler. That's why you see the owner back-tracking. He and his people know it.

Look, I'm going to lay this out further because I don't think most everyone is thinking this through.

If the Bears TRULY believed Cutler was their guy none of these conversations would be happening. However, he's good enough that several teams would want in on him, especially teams which consider themselves to be playoff caliber teams, such as the Texans.

So what do the Bears do?

As I've expressed, the odds are great that he stays, no matter the circumstances. They think they are a playoff team right now and aren't willing to go backwards for a couple of seasons while bringing on a hopeful, young QB. The PR hit and pressure of failure with such a gamble would be HUGE, and I don't care how much they profess their belief in Trestman because of what McCown has done, no GM believes in his guy so much that they'd be willing to tear it down at the QB position just on faith. They aren't idiots.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the Bears are willing to move on from him. They know he's a commodity, and they have several ways to protect themselves so they would get something back.

If they apply the non-exclusive Tag to him, Cutler can negotiate with other teams up until the moment he signs the contract. Should he sign a deal the new team would still have to pay Cutler the money AND give the compensation to the Bears. That is a STEEP price to pay for a guy of Jay's caliber. There's no way he's worth that much.

Now what if he signs the tag? The Bears can still negotiate with other teams should they elect to trade him. If Alex Smith fetched a 2nd and possibly a future 2nd, Cutler will cost a 1st and probably more. That would be the only way the Bears could save face in moving him, which is to say they landed a huge trove of draft picks, but again, that doesn't solve their QB issue in the here-and-now.

Forget what has been written by the mouths and use common sense. The Bears won't just let Cutler test the waters when they can restrict his movement and get at least a 1st rounder and probably more draft picks for him. They will tag him if they can't get a contract worked out, and if that happens, the cost of Cutler becomes elite QB money AND a 1st round pick AND another high pick or player.

For Jay Cutler.

We're not talking about Brees here. We're not talking about a guy who is a top-10 QB. We're talking about a 31-year old gifted arm who turns the ball over, has an injury history, and has been unliked bye the two cities he's been employed in.

Don't forget it cost the Bears TWO 1st round picks for him, and he hasn't given them back what they gave for him. Letting him walk away scott-free also becomes a pride thing.

There's a love affair developing here with Cutler because of his arm and because of our desperation. If emotion is taken out of it and logic applied, it's hard to imagine the Bears walking away from him and us breaking the proverbial bank to get the guy.

The very last thing which is going to happen is that the Bears let him walk away to test the market.

Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?

To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.

But it is entertaining.

When you think of the impact on offensive production from those two spots, that's actually a fairly significant difference because the impact runs far beyond just the statistical impact on those two positions alone.

I don't disagree. But that does not equal 'untalented' or 'rebuilding'.

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Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?

To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.

But it is entertaining.

And conversely when we win a game you tout us as having talent, then when we lose you blame the coaching staff.

But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:

LACK. OF. TALENT.

You don't have to believe it. You can remain in the minority. Professionals in the league...who get paid to write about the league...who get paid to predict the league...who make their very livings by betting on the league...point to how much talent the Browns lack by putting them at the bottom of the league.

As for me being backed into a corner, until there are facts and data which indicate we have as much talent as the rest of the league, the burden is on you to prove we have it. The data backs up the position that we are inferior in terms of talent. The results on the field prove it. You're fighting an uphill fight here, just as you're fighting an uphill fight to prove the coaches are the reason we are losing.

Our offensive line is inferior with as many as 3 guys needing to be replaced. Our skill-set guys on offense are inferior. We have one talented-but-troubled receiver in Gordon then a bunch of nobodies. We have nobodies at RB. We have one receiving TE who is a wimp in the run-game, and then a bunch of nobodies at the rest of the TE position. We need at least one ILB, and Mingo, while fast, is far from a 3-down player. He could become great but could just as easily bust. Sheard is good coming upfield but is terrible in coverage. We have solid players on the D-line but no pro-bowlers there. Ward is solid but one-dimensional, and Gipson is up-and-down. Then there's our depth, which isn't good, as there aren't any up-and-comers who are pushing for PT.

The old saying of "coaches coach and players play" is always true. It wasn't the coaches who gave up all these 4th quarter defensive melt-downs.

Now in typical fashion, it becomes fashionable to paint my position in such a light that I am now saying we have the least talent in the NFL.

My position is that with the high draft picks we have and the cap space we'll have, we can get up to speed with the rest of the league. Should we elect to throw a bunch of those picks at Cutler, we're making a huge mistake. We keep gambling and reaching on guys who aren't worth it, from Frye to Quinn, to McCoy and Weeden...if we'll focus on building up the rest of the team by making smart picks, we'll eventually be in a position where we CAN spend picks and money on someone like Cutler.

If we were a team that had above-average NFL talent but lacked a QB, I might just be on board with sending a high pick or two to get Cutler.

Had we drafted correctly over the last decade, we very-well may have been in that position. But we're not.

Getting back to the topic of Cutler, if...IF...he could be had just for money, it would be worth going after. But it's not going to be just about money. It's going to be about draft picks as well, and this team cannot afford to give up high draft picks for a good-but-not-great QB when his contract will also limit how many top-notch free agents we sign.

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Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?

To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.

But it is entertaining.

I think you might be selling short the importance of running back, depth at RB (neither of which we have) and your second and third WR's.

A lot of teams have all that, and 2 tight ends...

We're just not there. I don't think our OL is as horrible as people want to make it out to be, but it's also not the greatest, especially with run blocking. I have seen instances this year where they created good enough lanes for big plays that McGahee was just far too slow to get through in time.

All these good RB's in the league have that initial burst that allows them an extra half second to make their one move. Demarco Murray has that great first step that he starts every first quarter with (then of course, they decide to let Trollmo throw the ball in the 4th, but that's beside the point). McCoy, Charles, Peterson, etc... The first step of those guys is what seperates them from the guys not getting it done.

Baker showed that great first step. I don't know about his vision or breakaway speed or ability to break tackles or any of that, but I know he showed something that McGahee doesn't have anymore and Richardson never had.

I'm not saying Baker is anything, I'm just saying that's what we're missing, and that partly explains the lack of offense.

No QB, no RB, no RB2, no WR, no WR2.... That's why we struggle to light up the scoreboard.

Some of the guys we have selected with high picks aren't cutting it, and we've either depended on them or others to fill the void.

Richardon, 1st round
Weeden 1st round
Gordon, 2nd round
Little, 2nd round
Hardesty, 2nd round
McCoy, 3rd round
Robiskie, 2nd round
Massaquoi, 2nd round

Those are your skill position guys picked in any of the first 3 rounds going all the way back to the 2008 draft.

Aside from Gordon, that's awful. I understand guys picked after the third round develop and become good productive players, but I think you judge front offices on what's done in the earlier rounds. Everyone talks about how the Patriots found Brady, but even they passed on him 5 times before selecting him. It's a crapshoot. I don't believe those first few rounds are a crapshoot.

Guys who walk around in their Joe Thomas jerseys who think skill position players are a dime a dozen and the "DURR HURR GAME IS WON IN THE TRENCHES HERP DURP" are just as wrong as the people who think only the guys who get picked on fantasy teams only matter. Truth is, they all do.

The guy in the Joe Thomas jersey can say that Brady won Super Bowls without any great receivers and how they relied on good defense and running the ball.

At the same time the other guy can say that the Browns have done absolutely nothing with a franchise/best in the league left tackle over the last 6 years.

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Other than WR2 and RB, where are the Bears more talented than the Browns?

To say the Browns aren't talented is your fallback position every time you get backed into a corner on a debate. It's a fallacy and no matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. It's a convenient reason people like to throw around as we wind down another losing season. It's convenient because it's a lazy way to explain the losing.

But it is entertaining.

And conversely when we win a game you tout us as having talent, then when we lose you blame the coaching staff.

But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:

LACK. OF. QB.

Fixed it for you.

You can't subscribe to the notion that QB is the most important position, elevates everyone's play, elevates morale and confidence, then claim there is no talent when we don't have a QB. So which is it fence rider? Spin me an answer.

Or tell me this. What is the magic formula? What's the secret to our "talentless" team and why do we continue to be deficient in talent compared to everyone else? From FO to FO, are we just clueless?

Because that's the only explanation. That FO after FO after FO is just clueless. Does that really make any sense? Or does it make more sense that we haven't hit on that one pivotal position, QB? It's amazing how well Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's OL play. I wonder if that's just coincidence too.

I mean come on. How about a little common sense? Seriously.

I know it makes you sound smart and stuff to always claim we are talentless and rebuilding ... blah, blah, blah ... but I'm not buying what you are selling.

Am I saying we are a Super Bowl contender with the right QB? No. If I was I would be just as extreme as you. But every team, even the two that will end up in the SB this year have holes. But I guarantee you the two representations will also have franchise QBs.

I'm just asking for a little common sense and not this need to sound smart. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim this team lacks talent and is rebuilding. If you want to claim we don't have a franchise QB, scream it to your heart's content.

The common sense is an easy concept in this case.

Look at all of the players Toad listed, then tell me where any of them went on to do great in the NFL?

Our drafts have sucked in the 1st and 2nd rounds. As a result, we have very little in the way of play makers. It's really easy to see.

To have a running game, not only do you need a RB, but you also need run blocking that is at least average.

To have a vertical passing game, you need an OL who can protect your QB. Especially your QB's blind side. That much we do have.

You use Peyton Manning and Tom Brady as an example of making their OL's look good. You could add drew Brees. But where are you going to find that caliber of a QB? In Jay cutler? Are you kidding me? You're speaking about QB's in a much higher level than Jay Cutler here. Apples to oranges.

For an injury plagued guy like Cutler to stay healthy, you WILL need an OL that can protect him. He won't "make them look better". And Cutler has a great running game in Chicago. We don't.

This team needs a big infusion of talent. That's not a secret accept to those in denial. Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.

Mediocrity isn't the goal here. but some seem to advocate it. Probably more out of desperation and a willingness to believe rather than on purpose.

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Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.

I disagree. In the NFL today, all that matters is getting to the playoffs. From there, whatever QB that gets crazy hot seems to win whether it's Flacco, Kaepernick, heck Mark Sanchez won games (and he played really well in some of those).

The talent level is so even now that you just need to get your playoff spot, then take your chances. That is why I wouldn't mind Cutler. He is definitely good enough to get hot for 4 games in the playoffs.

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But the simple fact is that every year people who know football pick the Browns to finish near the bottom of the league, and there's one single solitary reason for that:

LACK. OF. TALENT.

You don't have to believe it. You can remain in the minority. Professionals in the league...who get paid to write about the league...who get paid to predict the league...who make their very livings by betting on the league...point to how much talent the Browns lack by putting them at the bottom of the league.

I call BS on this too.

Those guys NEVER get the "surprise" teams, both winners and loser, right. They go on history and perception, they have little to no clue, they're weather vanes. I could post any random preseason power ranking and it would look stupid on about half the teams on it. That's the AVG prognostication skill of a monkey throwing darts. It's really not a good argument and easy to dismantle.

As for talent level: I'd bet we have an AVG number of positively graded players by a site like PFF outside the QB position. Like the site or not, but they at least provide an objective and equal grading style for all 32 teams without bias, so I'd love to know what our AVG score is for our starters minus the QB position. I'm VERY confident it'd be solidly AVG.

I do agree on Cutler probably not being available, it's a longshot. If it takes picks too, high one's, then I'd probably have to think twice, depends on the compensation. I'd probably still do a 2nd + 4th or something like that. It would take more to get Bridgewater this draft and Alex Smith last offseason, who's a worse QB. I find it very irritating coming from a guy that wanted us to spent as high as a first for Alex Smith (+ the contract: 3 years 25.25mil).

Let's not get too cute with the most important position that needs fixed. I'd do 5year, 75mil, 30mil guaranteed in a heartbeat. If it takes more, then we would have to structure the contract smarter.

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This team needs a big infusion of talent. That's not a secret accept to those in denial. Do we have enough talent to play .500 ball with a good QB? probably so. But all that accomplishes is still needing a lot of talent and picking later in the draft.

In 2011, the Seattle Seahawks were 7-9, the previous 3 seasons they had 4, 5, and 7 wins respectively.. there were stuck just below mediocrity and they were in a horrible division.. they didn't have to play anybody as good as the Bengals or the Ravens.. heck maybe not even the Steelers this year...

Their QBs that year were Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst

Their running backs that year were Marshawn Lynch and Leon Washington

Leading WRs were Doug Baldwin, Sydney Rice, and Golden Tate

TE was Zach Miller

Top 10 tacklers were
Hawthorne, Chancellor, Thomas, Hill, Curry, Browner, Wright, Sherman, Clemons, Mebane

In 2012, they were 11-5 and a solid playoff team in a division that had gotten a lot better..

The QB was Russel Wilson, Rookie

Their rushing leaders that year were Marshawn Lynch and Russel Wilson

Leading WRs were Doug Baldwin, Sydney Rice, and Golden Tate

TE was Zach Miller

Top 10 tacklers were
Wagner, Chancellor, Thomas, Hill, Browner, Wright, Sherman, Clemons, Mebane, Trufant

So let's see, we changed the QB.. we added Wagner (a 2nd round pick rookie MLB) and we added Trufant a vet corner who had been on the team for many years..

I could give you this year but it looks EXACTLY like last year only all of those same players that struggled to get to 7 wins in '11 were now better..... so they went from a struggling 7-9 team to the very best team in the NFL almost overnight by drafting a MLB in the second round and drafting a QB... and they drafted an OG from NC State... and a DE who is not bad....

Where is their big infusion of talent to get from below average to the very best team in the NFL? We need 2 or 3 positions filled with good players and we need a QB to be an 11 win team.. we can accomplish that in one year if we do it right.

Well I will be damned I saw a Diam post

I have to agree with you on Cutler. Just so NO. He may be the answer for a few more wins but he is not the answer for a trip to the Super Bowl

Yet again they had a running game with Lynch.

they also had a seven win season. That's almost double the games we've won.

Cutler has been plagued with injuries.

When we are very close to a .500 team (as you plainly saw with Seattle at 7-9), I believe you would be correct. But I don't see Russel Wilson and Cutler in the same light.

I also don't see enough talent here for us to win seven games without our QB.

I don't see a healthy guy in Cutler. I don't see the "it factor" with Cutler. And with winning four games, I don't see us as being like Seattle just before they drafted Wilson.

I could be wrong, but I don't see Russel Wilson "special" in Jay Cutler or us being a Seattle with nothing more than a QB and a couple of more impact players.

With what we've seen of our 4th quarter D and zero running games, I think it will take far more pieces than you mentioned.

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Mediocrity isn't the goal here. but some seem to advocate it. Probably more out of desperation and a willingness to believe rather than on purpose.

Come on my friend. That's where either you aren't reading or are reading what you want. I am not advocating mediocroty. I am advocationg not pinning our hopes on a rookie until said rookie shows he is the guy to take us past mediocre.

I am not pinning all on Cutler. I am saying roll with him until we do get the guy who can make us better.

Why is this so hard to understand? Quit putting words in peoples mouths. I don't think anybody has said Cutler is the bomb and the sure answer. Most everything I have read is saying he is the best, proven option that might be available.

Now, that said, I liked what i saw in Hoyer. Maybe he is the guy.

I guess what I am saying is people keep talking about money, like it's their money. We have been under the cap forever and haven't done SQUAT. It's dumb to entery a poker game where you can buy in up to 500 and only buy in at 200. You aren't going to win unless you simply plan on luck and are never be able to play out a decent hand because you can't match and raise. It's hard to win if you have to fold all the time.

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Well I will be damned I saw a Diam post I have to agree with you on Cutler. Just so NO. He may be the answer for a few more wins but he is not the answer for a trip to the Super Bowl

well said sir ... he will win us a few more games than Campbell and Weeds .... Hoyer ... not so sure he would ... but I don't think he will ever lead anyone to the Super Bowl .... 2 cent head .... I will say this though .. if anyone can do it with him its Trestman ..... hes pretty good with QB's ...

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I am not pinning all on Cutler. I am saying roll with him until we do get the guy who can make us better.

But we can't do that.

He will get a massive, starter level contract, with big time guarantees. There is no "roll with him till we get someone better". There is "commit to him as the starter, and pay him accordingly".

We can't just use him until we don't need him and then dump him without consequence. Our cap will be effected, and when we need to re-sign some key players.

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The Bears won't just let Cutler test the waters when they can restrict his movement and get at least a 1st rounder and probably more draft picks for him. They will tag him if they can't get a contract worked out, and if that happens, the cost of Cutler becomes elite QB money AND a 1st round pick AND another high pick or player.

For Jay Cutler.

We're not talking about Brees here. We're not talking about a guy who is a top-10 QB. We're talking about a 31-year old gifted arm who turns the ball over, has an injury history, and has been unliked bye the two cities he's been employed in.

Just a question, not an argument... if Cutler is bad enough to be clearly not worth his unavoidable compensation cost, then how is that his cost is both so high and unavoidable?

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Yet again they had a running game with Lynch.

So the fact that we need a running back precludes us from taking a QB?

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Cutler has been plagued with injuries.

He missed one game in the middle of 2010
He missed the last 6 games of 2011
He missed one game in the middle of 2012
He missed 5 games in 2013

He's played in 49 of the Bears last 62 games... Over the last 7 years he's played in 97 of a possible 110 games... We should be so lucky.

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When we are very close to a .500 team (as you plainly saw with Seattle at 7-9), I believe you would be correct.

Seattle had the 17th ranked offense and 8th ranked defense.. Right now we are at 14 and 7... they won a few more games, we've blown a bunch of 4th quarter leads.. we really aren't that far away from being a .500 team, just need to learn how to finish.

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But I don't see Russel Wilson and Cutler in the same light.

Wasn't comparing Wilson to Cutler, was addressing your assertion that we need a massive influx of talent across the roster before we need to worry about a QB.

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I also don't see enough talent here for us to win seven games without our QB.

How can you not see that? We've won 4 games, we had one stolen by the Patriots, we allowed 21 4th quarter points to the Bears to lose by a TD, we allowed the Jags to go 80 yards in the 4th to beat us.. this team is a gnatsass away from being a 7 win team right now and we could still win another game...

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I could be wrong, but I don't see Russel Wilson "special" in Jay Cutler

Me either.. again, not arguing for Cutler as much as I'm saying we are a very good QB away from being an 11 win team even without some massive influx of talent in other spots..

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or us being a Seattle with nothing more than a QB and a couple of more impact players.

We need a little more than that to get where Seattle is today but not to be a legit playoff contender like Seattle was last year, one of the things we need is experience for our young players... what a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that a lot of the players we are counting on to step up, Haden, Ward, Cameron, Skrine, Mingo, Taylor, Sheard, Winn, Schwartz, Gordon, Hughes, Little, Benjamin, McFadden, Gipson, Robertson, Pinkston, Lauvao... these are all guys who have just barely, or have not yet, reached their prime.. most of them are 2nd or 3rd year players.... and if you're counting, that's well over half of our starting roster.. Not saying all of them are destined for greatness, but there is a lot of football talent on that list that still needs to mature in the NFL...

Let's see, another thing Seattle had in their favor, their coach was going into his 3rd season.. their young players who started coming into their own and making a big impact had been in the system for 2 or 3 years now..

So my point is, we are in a very similar position to Seattle from 2 years ago... very similar. Doing most of what they did is not all that difficult, let the young guys mature, find a few more solid pieces, give the coach and the system some time... the challenging part is finding Russel Wilson... which is why we need to start right now.. we cannot count on filling all of these other pieces, getting to .500 and then finding our own Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, it just doesn't happen very often.

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Seattle had the 17th ranked offense and 8th ranked defense.. Right now we are at 14 and 7... they won a few more games, we've blown a bunch of 4th quarter leads.. we really aren't that far away from being a .500 team, just need to learn how to finish.

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How can you not see that? We've won 4 games, we had one stolen by the Patriots, we allowed 21 4th quarter points to the Bears to lose by a TD, we allowed the Jags to go 80 yards in the 4th to beat us.. this team is a gnatsass away from being a 7 win team right now and we could still win another game...

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Me either.. again, not arguing for Cutler as much as I'm saying we are a very good QB away from being an 11 win team even without some massive influx of talent in other spots..

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We need a little more than that to get where Seattle is today but not to be a legit playoff contender like Seattle was last year, one of the things we need is experience for our young players... what a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that a lot of the players we are counting on to step up, Haden, Ward, Cameron, Skrine, Mingo, Taylor, Sheard, Winn, Schwartz, Gordon, Hughes, Little, Benjamin, McFadden, Gipson, Robertson, Pinkston, Lauvao... these are all guys who have just barely, or have not yet, reached their prime.. most of them are 2nd or 3rd year players.... and if you're counting, that's well over half of our starting roster.. Not saying all of them are destined for greatness, but there is a lot of football talent on that list that still needs to mature in the NFL...

You see DC, when adding everything I quoted you saying above, I just don't buy into it. You've clearly shown how we blow leads, can't close out games and give them away.

Every year we hear that "We are young and will need time to become winners."... Yet every year it ends up the same old, same old. Considering we have so many draft picks and this will only be the second year of re-building for this new FO, how much more youth do you feel is still yet to be infused?

How many of those players you listed do you even think will still be here in say two or three years? I'm not saying you're wrong, but we certainly don't see this picture in the same light.

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So my point is, we are in a very similar position to Seattle from 2 years ago... very similar. Doing most of what they did is not all that difficult, let the young guys mature, find a few more solid pieces, give the coach and the system some time... the challenging part is finding Russel Wilson... which is why we need to start right now.. we cannot count on filling all of these other pieces, getting to .500 and then finding our own Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, it just doesn't happen very often.

While you may not find a Russel Wilson in the 3rd round, you still have to find a QB in the draft. I mean if you wish to make the comparison, you can't dismiss that they found a long term answer to their QB position without going the band aid FA route.

To me the math is simple here. Once you are only a few FA's away from greatness, you don't want that cap space being spent on your second string QB you overpaid for a couple of years ago.

With the rookie cap in place, I don't believe Banner will overpay for a guy that leaves some to be desired rather than go the draft route. He has shown in the past he is shrude with the cap.

If Cutler were a QB I thought we could hitch our wagons to for four years and not make a major draft investment for the next three years, then fine. But I just don't believe he's that guy. Yet he will command that type of investment.

I also don't believe this FO and coaching staff sees all of the talent here that you do. How much of the roster gets turned over the next couple of off seasons will answer that question to a large degree.

JMHO

Are we even disagreeing? I'm NOT talking about Cutler.. Not, not even a little bit. I'm talking about your post which previously stated that we needed a large infusion of talent before upgrading the QB spot would matter. That is the part that I find incorrect.

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Every year we hear that "We are young and will need time to become winners."... Yet every year it ends up the same old, same old.

Because we are yet to find a QB to bring it all together, thus every couple years we change the staff, move a bunch of players out and a new cast in and we start over... that's why we are always young, since Butch left we've been young every year...

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Considering we have so many draft picks and this will only be the second year of re-building for this new FO, how much more youth do you feel is still yet to be infused?

One person for each draft pick, that's the youth that will be infused.. unfortunately we are still in a position where we need at least 2 or 3 of them to step in and play well right away... but at least they will be stepping into a system with guys around them who are one year older and have a full year in the system, which will help them.

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How many of those players you listed do you even think will still be here in say two or three years?

Most of them.

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you still have to find a QB in the draft.

Which is really all I've been saying.. even my thoughts on bringing Cutler in also involve drafting a QB pretty high, it's just that with Cutler, that QB won't be forced to "save us" immediately.. I'm still on the fence about Cutler, I can live with him or I can do without him.. he makes us immediately better, is he going to lead us deep into the playoffs? I don't know.

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To me the math is simple here. Once you are only a few FA's away from greatness, you don't want that cap space being spent on your second string QB you overpaid for a couple of years ago.

Given the number of years we've relied on that second string QB.. which has been pretty much every one, I wouldn't mind having a capable back-up.. maybe that's Hoyer, maybe Hoyer is the starter and it's somebody else.. I don't know.

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I also don't believe this FO and coaching staff sees all of the talent here that you do.

Maybe not, every team has turnover through growth, through attrition, through FA loss... I'm just saying there is a fair amount of talent there that I think we will hold onto and it will continue to get better.

If you're really not speaking of Cutler, then we really aren't disagreeing. Or any high $$$ FA QB.

My hope is this team gets much better. Do I think we have players like you mentioned that can help us get there? Yes I do. But the NFL is a business. Vers has stated that he doesn't believe this FO will pay Haden top 5 CB money if that's his demands. I'm not so sure they will either.

I believe you will lose some players from the business side of the game. What I have seen are teams who "get close". Can they make the playoffs? Sometimes, but you know they're pretenders, not contenders. Can we say Bengals?

If let's say, you put a long term, 60-80 mil. contract in a guy that ends up as your back up, that's money that could well be spent on the few FA's it may take to be the difference from pretenders to a real SB team.

I guess it boils down to how people perceive investing the cap. If I though Cutler was the type of consistant QB that really did make us a contender, then I would be up for that.

As of now, I'd rather see this FO draft two QB's than to spend big on what I see a FA band aid. So, no, we really aren't in disagreement about it being too early for a QB.

And I would have to add, if you're not sure about Cutler making us a playoff contender, what exactly does that say? To me it says you don't get into a bidding war for someone you aren't sold on. Especially at QB.

JMHO

So we aren't really in disagreement over much then...

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And I would have to add, if you're not sure about Cutler making us a playoff contender, what exactly does that say?

Oh I'm pretty sure that Cutler with a couple other adds makes us a playoff contender.. but I don't want to be a playoff contender.. re-read your part about contenders and pretenders, that's how I feel... I think that with good talent Cutler could very easily pull a Flacco and string together enough games to get us to or even win a championship.. he has shown that level of ability.. I'm just saying I think the odds of him doing that 4 games in a row is slim.

You suggest we could draft 2 QBs... so who, among the QBs available, do you see that has tools superior to Cutler? Cutler was the #11 pick in the draft.... Taken behind Vince Young and Matt Leinart in what looks now to be have been a historically bad QB draft...

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To me it says you don't get into a bidding war for someone you aren't sold on. Especially at QB.

Oh I have no intention of getting into a bidding war.. if I make Cutler an offer at all, it's a reasonable offer and if he doesn't accept it, I walk away..

I don't watch enough college ball nor get paid to evaluate QB's.

Who to pick will be left up to those who make the big $$$.

I just don't think an NFL FO can put off drafting a QB two years in a row and that be an avenue that people will accept.

Between last year and this year, there will be QB's that are very good. And if this FO doesn't draft one of those, people will be second guessing them. If they draft the wrong one people will be second guessing them.

Bridgewater looks to be a special kid. Maybe not Luck special, but who knows? I just know they can't let a second season pass by and not make a substantial investment at drafting a QB. I don't think people will accept them to continue to kick the can down the road.

I'm not advocating they reach. I advocate they get it right. Lots of other people in their position have done it. If they miss or let one pass by them, this fan base will be fit to be tied.

Sorry about the redneck sayings. Been reading the Duck Dynasty thread.

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The Bears won't just let Cutler test the waters when they can restrict his movement and get at least a 1st rounder and probably more draft picks for him. They will tag him if they can't get a contract worked out, and if that happens, the cost of Cutler becomes elite QB money AND a 1st round pick AND another high pick or player.

For Jay Cutler.

We're not talking about Brees here. We're not talking about a guy who is a top-10 QB. We're talking about a 31-year old gifted arm who turns the ball over, has an injury history, and has been unliked bye the two cities he's been employed in.

Just a question, not an argument... if Cutler is bad enough to be clearly not worth his unavoidable compensation cost, then how is that his cost is both so high and unavoidable?

That one made my head hurt.

If I have the jist of your thought process interpreted correctly, it comes back to supply, demand, circumstance, and perception.

The risk of the Bears is losing a good QB without being able to replace him with an equally known QB. If they were a rebuilding team or one that is about to be torn down, the decision would be much easier to make, but they are a playoff-caliber team (or at least in the playoff picture) so in order to justify allowing him to walk away they need to get something back of considerable value.

That leads us back to the Browns.

We're buyers, and assuming we would want Cutler, we would have to buy at a premium because the team getting him won't be just giving up salary for his services. They'll also be giving up some package for the right to sign him.

Taking it on faith that the Bears will tag him in the absense of signing him to a contract, they own his rights. For the Bears it's a question of money, but for anyone else interested in Cutler it's a question of money and compensation.

The Bears just have to decide if he's worth the money. Everyone else would have to decide if he's worth the money and draft picks and/or players.

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Vers has stated that he doesn't believe this FO will pay Haden top 5 CB money if that's his demands.

Actually, my comments are that I don't think this FO will give Ward top 3 or 4 Safety money. I could be dead wrong about that.

Haden. I think my comments were more along the lines of him not wanting to resign w/us.