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The common factor of course being that a few weeks ago people were complaining about X. And now a few weeks later people are complaining about Y. Remember Week 3 when everyone was freaking out and complaining about Z and then a few weeks later everyone knew it was actually a good thing? That was hilarious. I am with you Vers. My only problem with the Chud firing is how hard they were pushing for consistency as a philosophy. I basically agreed with that idea and was saying we should keep Chud for 10 years basically regardless of the results. At the same time that I was arguably one of the bigger Chud fans and supporters... I don't care if he was fired. There are a lot of politics and reasons we aren't privy to why they made that decision. And if Chud and Shurmur produced similar amounts of wins, then does it really matter who our coach is? Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact. You know what has an impact? Having a QB who isn't terrible. Which has been the browns primary issue for the last 15 years and remains unresolved. The FO could hire Rich Kotite as HC, Matt Millen as OC, and Mangini as DC.... If they managed to draft a QB who was even league average I would praise them to death as by far the best FO of the new Browns. Personal side note Vers. You've really upped your post quality since coming back to the boards. Well done dude, from one of my least favorite to someone I actually stop to read. After the two months of a . fight with Memphis and DJ the thoughtful posts started being the norm 
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Agree on that point as well. I'm just resigning myself to believe that the Texans can't be stupid enough not to draft Bridgewater, and looking at other alternatives. Bortles is the only guy I would take in round 1 other than Teddy, and I am waffling on whether I would go top 5 with him.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
The common factor of course being that a few weeks ago people were complaining about X. And now a few weeks later people are complaining about Y. Remember Week 3 when everyone was freaking out and complaining about Z and then a few weeks later everyone knew it was actually a good thing? That was hilarious.
I am with you Vers. My only problem with the Chud firing is how hard they were pushing for consistency as a philosophy. I basically agreed with that idea and was saying we should keep Chud for 10 years basically regardless of the results.
At the same time that I was arguably one of the bigger Chud fans and supporters... I don't care if he was fired. There are a lot of politics and reasons we aren't privy to why they made that decision. And if Chud and Shurmur produced similar amounts of wins, then does it really matter who our coach is? Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
You know what has an impact? Having a QB who isn't terrible. Which has been the browns primary issue for the last 15 years and remains unresolved. The FO could hire Rich Kotite as HC, Matt Millen as OC, and Mangini as DC.... If they managed to draft a QB who was even league average I would praise them to death as by far the best FO of the new Browns.
Personal side note Vers. You've really upped your post quality since coming back to the boards. Well done dude, from one of my least favorite to someone I actually stop to read. After the two months of a . fight with Memphis and DJ the thoughtful posts started being the norm
you guys are grossly making up the stuff fans complained about on the boards.
i dont recall ANYBODY asking for the coaches to be fired. thats absurd. but you are acting like we can't complain?
we can't criticize the coaches on draw plays on 3rd and 1?
we can criticize the coaches on the lack of pressure on opposing QB's?
nobody was calling for coaches heads. what we were asking for and complaining about is better play calling, game management, ETC. normally stuff anybody watching the game will make.
stop making crap up. its getting annoying.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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anyway, i just watched the presser again in its entirety
thoughts:
haslam's facial expressions were epic. i laughed the entire way through.
while it doesn't sting any less, i give them massive credit for at least admitting they got it wrong. that alone takes some serious nuts.
at the same time, i think they are grossly underestimating how well they think they can attract a top notch coach to come here. draft picks doesn't mean anything except you now have to start your first season as a HC with a bunch of players who don't know anything.
i'm really glad the media hammered them, and hard. i might not saying it will help, but i can bet money this is gonna make them search beyond a shadow of a doubt for the right guy, if no other reason than to avoid the lynching they received on live TV.
i'm sick of them taking credit for the cap situation that heckert and holmgren created. they walked into a great situation when it comes to the cap.
all in all.....eh. lets see who they hire, and what QB the coaches and FO choose in the Draft.
those 2 things will tell us all we need to know.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Who is the reporter reading the Facebook posts?
Dan DeRoos from Chanel 19. That was priceless. Haslem looked visibly pissed for a moment when he was asking his thoughts on fans perception that this organization is a complete embarrassment to the city and NFL. Additionally, how the fans would like Haslem, Banner and Lombardi to pack their bags and get out of town.
This franchise is an absolute mess!
Just remember, that wasn't the words of that reporter, those were what fans wrote on one of the social media sites. He was just reading them out loud.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
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Who is the reporter reading the Facebook posts?
Dan DeRoos from Chanel 19. That was priceless. Haslem looked visibly pissed for a moment when he was asking his thoughts on fans perception that this organization is a complete embarrassment to the city and NFL. Additionally, how the fans would like Haslem, Banner and Lombardi to pack their bags and get out of town.
This franchise is an absolute mess!
Just remember, that wasn't the words of that reporter, those were what fans wrote on one of the social media sites. He was just reading them out loud.
you can tell the way he read it, he was having a blast though. must have been awesome.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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J/C...
Those two - Haslem and Banner - could tell me that boobs are good and I'd think they were lying. Ugh.
What a disaster.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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Thanks King, but being w/me is not a popular place. 
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To be fair during the games I am mostly in the chatroom. And yes people were calling for heads to roll in there. Might not be the brightest people, but it was happening My problem isn't that people complain per se... It is that people freak out over bad news. Trading T Rich people acted like they were having their legs amputated. Some claimed they were done with the franchise then as well. People hate unexpected bad news and decisive action taken to avoid future catastrophe. We traded T Rich and a bunch of people cried themselves to sleep. Only to realize a few weeks later it was arguably the greatest trade in the NFL in the last decade. Most people would be less upset if we allowed Chud to coach for 3-5 years and then fired him. They would have sufficient time to develop their opinions about his coaching and would be able to justify the decision. But guess what? It stings more to fire the guy now, but what if...just maybe if... the FO knows what it is doing and just saved us 2-4 years of below average coaching? What if the next coach they sign is excellent? There is no reason yet to think the sky is falling.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Who is the reporter reading the Facebook posts?
Dan DeRoos from Chanel 19. That was priceless. Haslem looked visibly pissed for a moment when he was asking his thoughts on fans perception that this organization is a complete embarrassment to the city and NFL. Additionally, how the fans would like Haslem, Banner and Lombardi to pack their bags and get out of town.
This franchise is an absolute mess!
Just remember, that wasn't the words of that reporter, those were what fans wrote on one of the social media sites. He was just reading them out loud.
you can tell the way he read it, he was having a blast though. must have been awesome.
It sounded like he was enjoying it,,,LOL Banners face was classic when the reporter mentioned the three stooges
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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For the record, here is the top of McShay's mock. Houston: Teddy St. Louis: Jake Matthews Oakland: Bortles Browns: Manziel
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Quote:
Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
please, reference a post where i say i want chud gone.
just one.
don't worry, i'll wait.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
For the record, here is the top of McShay's mock.
Houston: Teddy
St. Louis: Jake Matthews
Oakland: Bortles
Browns: Manziel
vers, there are reports that houston might take a defensive player with their 1st pick.
my god, if teddy falls from the sky's at #2, we HAVE to trade up with st. louis.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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That would be a God send if Houston did that. Either Mort or Sheft.........one of those ESPN guys,,,,,,,, was saying this morning that the Browns want to marry the new HC w/the QB. Meaning they will hire someone as our HC and let him choose and groom the new QB. I hope to God it is Bridgewater. 
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Quote:
That would be a God send if Houston did that.
Either Mort or Sheft.........one of those ESPN guys,,,,,,,, was saying this morning that the Browns want to marry the new HC w/the QB. Meaning they will hire someone as our HC and let him choose and groom the new QB.
I hope to God it is Bridgewater.
well, that means we have to find the right HC that can tailor the offense to Teddy, if he is indeed the QB they want.
which means, we need to have a offensive minded Coord. i dunno how i feel about that, but honestly, if we can land bridgewater, i won't care.
the thing is, mcdaniels isn't the guy imo. there are way to many reports of him being one of the top canidates.
i think o'brian is going to houston.
we can say the OC in denver, but who REALLY runs that offense?
we need a HC that has a history of grooming good QB's....
Norv.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Quote:
Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
please, reference a post where i say i want chud gone.
just one.
don't worry, i'll wait.
I don't know, but you picked on him without mercy in the chat rooms..
Feel free to deny that if you wish, since it's a chat room, I don't have proof
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
please, reference a post where i say i want chud gone.
just one.
don't worry, i'll wait.
Not trying to be a jerk, but what exactly were you implying when you made this quote in the What Happened to the Coaching thread?
Quote:
just throwing this out there guys.
we had one pro bowler last year in Joe T. we were 5-ll.
we have 5( with 1 alt) and we REGRESSED this year, cause we are going to lose today most likely.
even if we win. we "upgraded" our talent this year, and got the same record.
coaching is absolutely a problem.
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j/c
My take on the press conference:
Banner: We didn't see improvement from the beginning of the season to the end, even though we brought in good talent, so we fired the coach.
And, Banner again: You can't judge us (the 3 stooges) on the talent we brought in because a lot of the players were injured, so we need to wait to judge us (the 3 stooges) until those players can play. It will take a year or 2.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
please, reference a post where i say i want chud gone.
just one.
don't worry, i'll wait.
Not trying to be a jerk, but what exactly were you implying when you made this quote in the What Happened to the Coaching thread?
Quote:
just throwing this out there guys.
we had one pro bowler last year in Joe T. we were 5-ll.
we have 5( with 1 alt) and we REGRESSED this year, cause we are going to lose today most likely.
even if we win. we "upgraded" our talent this year, and got the same record.
coaching is absolutely a problem.
to you and Daman.
once again, you guys are confusing criticism with wanting a guy fired.
just because you get criticized at your job doesn't mean somebody wants you fired. it means there are things that can be clearly improved.
man....those 2 things go hand and hand now?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rish and Swish were the ring leaders of the "chud must go" movement.. Looks like they got their wish
please, reference a post where i say i want chud gone.
just one.
don't worry, i'll wait.
Not trying to be a jerk, but what exactly were you implying when you made this quote in the What Happened to the Coaching thread?
Quote:
just throwing this out there guys.
we had one pro bowler last year in Joe T. we were 5-ll.
we have 5( with 1 alt) and we REGRESSED this year, cause we are going to lose today most likely.
even if we win. we "upgraded" our talent this year, and got the same record.
coaching is absolutely a problem.
I didn't write that, I have no idea what you mean Vers? I may have responded to someone, but I didn't write that... At least I don't remember ever writing that
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
Won't make an impact? We'll have to go through the process of changing schemes and acquiring players to FIT the new schemes....again..... What if the new HC is a 4-3 guy? Back to the 4-3 we go.... Bryant and Kruger quickly become the proverbial . on a bull.
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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I was backing you up. Swish wrote that.
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I was backing you up. Swish wrote that.
so you and daman gonna respond?
since when does criticism and wanting somebody fired go hand and hand?
don't we do the same with players? nobody says they shouldn't start, just need to improve.
but it doesn't work that with with coaches?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I was backing you up. Swish wrote that.
Yeah, I just checked, he did indeed write that.
But what I was referring to is his comments in Chat during games.
Oh, before someone says there is no "Chud Must Go" club, I want you all to know, I made up the name.. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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you can kiss ward, mack and haden goodbye once their contracts are up. Also i dont think any good free agents will want to come here. Which leads me to my next point, how the hell are you going to convince a coach to come here after he has seen what happened to chud? The only guy that i see coming here is Josh Mcdainels....and that is a very very bad thing.............
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"
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I never said you wanted them fired. I said: Quote:
I just find it kinda weird that so many people who were bad-mouthing our coaching these last several weeks are not chewing their limbs off because we lost Chud.
It is weird that some of you who were bashing the coaching are now so, so upset w/the firing.
Why would you be upset w/the firing of someone you said was "a problem?"
Look man, we both know the answer to that one. Let's allow it to drop.
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Quote:
That would be a God send if Houston did that.
Either Mort or Sheft.........one of those ESPN guys,,,,,,,, was saying this morning that the Browns want to marry the new HC w/the QB. Meaning they will hire someone as our HC and let him choose and groom the new QB.
I hope to God it is Bridgewater.
Me to. I wouldn't blink at giving up both 1st rounders, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th. I know that's a lot to pay, but to get a franchise QB for what at the beginning of the year would have equated to a 2nd rounder, TRich, and mid rounders is peanuts...........and an utter steal by this FO. It would make me feel a WHOLE lot better about these guys.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
Quote:
I was backing you up. Swish wrote that.
so you and daman gonna respond?
since when does criticism and wanting somebody fired go hand and hand?
don't we do the same with players? nobody says they shouldn't start, just need to improve.
but it doesn't work that with with coaches?
YO, Look up a few posts and you'll see I DID respond to you..
What, is it that you think all I have to do all day is to respond to you? You just aren't that important in the big picture. Hell, not even in the little picture
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I never said you wanted them fired. I said:
Quote:
I just find it kinda weird that so many people who were bad-mouthing our coaching these last several weeks are not chewing their limbs off because we lost Chud.
It is weird that some of you who were bashing the coaching are now so, so upset w/the firing.
Why would you be upset w/the firing of someone you said was "a problem?"
Look man, we both know the answer to that one. Let's allow it to drop.
no, because you clearly don't know. i was on the "give them another year" because i liked to have team chemistry and more time.
i said it was a problem, absolutely, but try finding a quote saying they couldn't change.
i said they needed to improve. i have NEVER said they need to be fired.
why are you guys putting words in my mouth. that is simply ridiculous.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I wish I knew the value of moving up from 4th to either 1st or 2nd. I hope that teams realize that Washington made a mistake by giving up that much two years ago and that the price won't be that steep again.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I was backing you up. Swish wrote that.
so you and daman gonna respond?
since when does criticism and wanting somebody fired go hand and hand?
don't we do the same with players? nobody says they shouldn't start, just need to improve.
but it doesn't work that with with coaches?
YO, Look up a few posts and you'll see I DID respond to you..
What, is it that you think all I have to do all day is to respond to you? You just aren't that important in the big picture. Hell, not even in the little picture
maybe because you're saying crap that isn't true. my bad, i forgot, we make up stuff around here on this board.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Quote:
Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
Won't make an impact? We'll have to go through the process of changing schemes and acquiring players to FIT the new schemes....again..... What if the new HC is a 4-3 guy? Back to the 4-3 we go.... Bryant and Kruger quickly become the proverbial . on a bull.
I would be SHOCKED if we hire someone that wants to shift to a 4-3. That would make zero sense. But Bryant did play in a 4-3 in Oakland IIRC. He wasn't bad at it.
I'll tell you who would become obsolete is Mingo. I'm not sure he can be a 4-3DE at this level even though he did it at LSU.... To little, IMO
Tackles are tackles.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
Won't make an impact? We'll have to go through the process of changing schemes and acquiring players to FIT the new schemes....again..... What if the new HC is a 4-3 guy? Back to the 4-3 we go.... Bryant and Kruger quickly become the proverbial . on a bull.
I would be SHOCKED if we hire someone that wants to shift to a 4-3. That would make zero sense. But Bryant did play in a 4-3 in Oakland IIRC. He wasn't bad at it.
I'll tell you who would become obsolete is Mingo. I'm not sure he can be a 4-3DE at this level even though he did it at LSU.... To little, IMO
i think mingo MIGHT in the 4-3 as a DE. with 4 D-linemen, he might excel at having to mostly beat one guy, seeing as rubin and taylor normally command double teams.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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None of my business I know, but I imagine Vers's quote about "we both know" is alluding to your pension to blast the FO no matter what they have done since you came over here.
I and others have blasted them when it was warranted (like today), but you and a few others have blasted them no matter what they would have done. It really isn't that hard to see people who cleverly "hide" their agenda in almost every post they make I promise...lol.
Again, none of my business and Vers can fight his own battles I know, because I've fought them with him in the past. However, it does get old when some guys are blatant agenda posters and when they get called on it do the "who me" routine.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Doesn't Seattle run a 4-3? We're trying to interview their DC.
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Dawg Talker
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I wish I knew the value of moving up from 4th to either 1st or 2nd. I hope that teams realize that Washington made a mistake by giving up that much two years ago and that the price won't be that steep again.
One can hope. I do know that I wouldn't part with any other picks that are in next year's draft. The Skins set their franchise back big time with the way that deal was structured...........an organization simply can't go 3 years without a 1st rounder and expect to compete at a high level. As bad as it is right now to be a Browns fan I wouldn't trade places with a Skin fan for nothing...lol.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
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Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
Won't make an impact? We'll have to go through the process of changing schemes and acquiring players to FIT the new schemes....again..... What if the new HC is a 4-3 guy? Back to the 4-3 we go.... Bryant and Kruger quickly become the proverbial . on a bull.
I would be SHOCKED if we hire someone that wants to shift to a 4-3. That would make zero sense. But Bryant did play in a 4-3 in Oakland IIRC. He wasn't bad at it.
I'll tell you who would become obsolete is Mingo. I'm not sure he can be a 4-3DE at this level even though he did it at LSU.... To little, IMO
i think mingo MIGHT in the 4-3 as a DE. with 4 D-linemen, he might excel at having to mostly beat one guy, seeing as rubin and taylor normally command double teams.
They better hope Mingo can play SLB if they go to a 4-3, much like they realized they have to do with Dion Jordan in Miami (and like I said Jordan would have to do pre-draft.) No way is he playing DE in a 4-3 at 240 pounds.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,494 Likes: 728
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,494 Likes: 728 |
Quote:
None of my business I know, but I imagine Vers's quote about "we both know" is alluding to your pension to blast the FO no matter what they have done since you came over here.
I and others have blasted them when it was warranted (like today), but you and a few others have blasted them no matter what they would have done. It really isn't that hard to see people who cleverly "hide" their agenda in almost every post they make I promise...lol.
Again, none of my business and Vers can fight his own battles I know, because I've fought them with him in the past. However, it does get old when some guys are blatant agenda posters and when they get called on it do the "who me" routine.
i get what you're saying, and that makes me apologize to you and vers and daman.
but i still strongly disagree about me only posting negatives. thats all i'm saying.
some posters are acting like criticizing the FO means i want them gone. its 2 different things.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,494 Likes: 728
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,494 Likes: 728 |
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Aside from upsetting the players and the fan base I don't think firing the coach has much of an impact.
Won't make an impact? We'll have to go through the process of changing schemes and acquiring players to FIT the new schemes....again..... What if the new HC is a 4-3 guy? Back to the 4-3 we go.... Bryant and Kruger quickly become the proverbial . on a bull.
I would be SHOCKED if we hire someone that wants to shift to a 4-3. That would make zero sense. But Bryant did play in a 4-3 in Oakland IIRC. He wasn't bad at it.
I'll tell you who would become obsolete is Mingo. I'm not sure he can be a 4-3DE at this level even though he did it at LSU.... To little, IMO
i think mingo MIGHT in the 4-3 as a DE. with 4 D-linemen, he might excel at having to mostly beat one guy, seeing as rubin and taylor normally command double teams.
They better hope Mingo can play SLB if they go to a 4-3, much like they realized they have to do with Dion Jordan in Miami (and like I said Jordan would have to do pre-draft.) No way is he playing DE in a 4-3 at 240 pounds.
i don't know. i guess we have to hope mingo bulks up. horton said that comes with time naturally. so hopefully they can find a important role for him.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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