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And if Teddy, Johnny and Manziel go 123? THen what? May or may not happen but if you plan on not trading up then you need to have a plan in place in the event that it does.
Take Clowney and prayer Hoyer gets healthy...
I don't want to trade. I think we can get a great player at 4... either a QB or Clowney...
<><
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And if Teddy, Johnny and Manziel go 123? THen what? May or may not happen but if you plan on not trading up then you need to have a plan in place in the event that it does.
Clowney or Sammy Watkins
I think Watkins, Gordon, Cameron would be a very good offense for Hoyer (at worst) to led not to mention the upgraded backfield that should happen was well, whether its Hyde, Seastrunk, Ka'Deem Carey, Simsor or even Dion Lewis/Ben Tate)
The one thing that may stop the Browns from taking Watkins is the shear talent of the WR core this year. It's unbelievable. Watkins, Mike Evans, Allen Robinson, Donte Moncrief, De'Anthony Thomas (WR/RB hybrid), Jordan Mathews, Marquise Lee, Bruce Ellington, Brandin Cooks...etc Most of the guys are going to be available at either the Colts pick or the 2nd round.
I would lean towards Clowney if we are heading back to a 4-3 Wide 9, I would be angry cause I prefer the 3-4, or if we can trade Sheard or Mingo (for a 2nd round pick) and allow Clowney to play a 3-4 OLB role like Willis McGinest.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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And if Teddy, Johnny and Manziel go 123? THen what? May or may not happen but if you plan on not trading up then you need to have a plan in place in the event that it does.
We trade our 4th round pick to get a 2015 3rd. a 5th round pick to get a 2015 4th. Trade an under acheiving past 1st round pick. Perhaps Mingo to a contending team that lost a pass rusher early in the season. And leave the coach without the talent to be a contender. Then fire him after the season.
That way the pieces can be in place to get a franchise QB in 2015.
Sounds like something that Banner and Lombardi would do!!!!
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I think his point was to trade up and guarantee we get one of our guys.
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They have to trade up. If they don't every move they made in 2013 will be for naught. The question is who are they targeting? and at what cost?
I am hoping it is Johnny Manziel.
Although, when I watch Bortles play he has an athletic skill set similar to Andrew Luck. He does not have his QB mind. If the FO and coaching staff see something in him that says if he is coached up he could get there or close. I could get real excited about him.
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Not that I've heard anyone do this- but for people afraid of Manziel because of his bust factor- the same applies to Bortles and could be even worse. I see his floor being this horrid amalgamation of Gabbert/Ponder if he's forced to action quick in a bad situation.
Honestly, I think if he and Tannehill were in the same class, he'd be a Bortles would be a tier below him. Tanne was at least making reads and going through progressions with about the same number of starts in Sherman's offense.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Quote:
Not that I've heard anyone do this- but for people afraid of Manziel because of his bust factor- the same applies to Bortles and could be even worse. I see his floor being this horrid amalgamation of Gabbert/Ponder if he's forced to action quick in a bad situation.
Honestly, I think if he and Tannehill were in the same class, he'd be a Bortles would be a tier below him. Tanne was at least making reads and going through progressions with about the same number of starts in Sherman's offense.
Yup, anyone can bust out. The top rated guy all the way down.
It hurts more because an average QB is either considered a bust, or just not looked at positively. On top of QB's getting more money, it's one end of the spectrum, or the other.
None of us really know if any of these guys will be great or if they will end up as crap. I like the top 3 guys a lot, and would be excited going forward with any of them. I don't like Derrick Carr as much, but I don't know for sure if he's going to be bad. He could easily end up as the best guy.
For every Andrew Luck, there are countless numbers of Blaine Gabbert and Mark Sanchez types. As fans, it's a crapshoot to us.
I do love the other stuff Manziel brings. He'd give us at least a year of national exposure, he'd sell tickets, he would ignite the fans. That's all stuff that's well and good when he's helping the team win.
I don't buy that they need Manziel because of that. Blake Bortles may not have that fire, but fans will be just the same if the Browns are winning, you just won't have some of the crazy Johnny Football type celebrations or craziness.
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I think his point was to trade up and guarantee we get one of our guys.
In my post I wasn't necessarily advocating trading up. I just hate when people say "I wouldn't trade up. I would stay at 4 and take whichever Qb falls to us" without offering a backup plan. If we had the #3 pick fine. If there were 4 Qb's fine. But there are 3 Qb's and we pick 4th, so there is no guarantee that one of those 3 fall to us. So if someone wants to stay at 4 and grab a Qb, fine, but I expect a contingency in the event that Qb's go 123.
Until we determine the alternatives how can we decide if the price of trading up is worth it?
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1. Texans, I take Clowney and have JJ watt on one side and clowney on the other. would not hesitate and would seek to get my QB later.
2. Rams This is the slot that will get the play. You have the Jags, Browns and Vikings, and if you can make a similar deal as u did with the skins then why not. Jags give up a first next year as well as thier first this year to move up 1 spot lol why not. Jags take Bridgewater here. They wont get the skins deal but they will come out with a lot
3. Rams say hay, we have Manziel and Bortles sitting here, want to secure one talk to us, all it takes is 2 firsts lol.
Gonna be interesting with how this one is just slated. once again its the perfect storm for the rams
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People are blinded by flash and I want substance. Manziel runs around like a chicken with his head cut off until a WR comes open. Terrelle Pryor used to do the same thing at OSU. Yet there are people trying to claim he has omnipotent understanding of every players' positioning of the field. NFL teams don't let you do that. Look at what happened against LSU and Missouri when he faced athletic fronts that played disciplined. I don't like the manner in which Manziel relies on his mobility either. Love the guy's escapability but not the way he tries to use it.
What I want in my QB is the ability to make timely decisions and accurate throws with velocity while on the move. Not running around until someone comes open. Real anticipation and the ability to make throws into tight windows.
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And if Teddy, Johnny and Manziel go 123? THen what? May or may not happen but if you plan on not trading up then you need to have a plan in place in the event that it does.
Jimmy Garoppolo later in the draft. That would be the back up plan.
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Texans have the best defensive player in the NFL fully healthy and won only 2 games. If Clowney is as good as Watt that doesn't mean they'll win more games. They need a franchise QB. Not a stop gap like Schaub.
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Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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~ Legend
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And if Teddy, Johnny and Manziel go 123? THen what? May or may not happen but if you plan on not trading up then you need to have a plan in place in the event that it does.
AJ Murray and/or Zach Mettenberger would be the best routes to go. Hardly damaged goods they're made out to be damaged goods, but it's no longer the 70's and surgery rehabilitation has came a long way. Both are 4th/5th round guys now when they were 1/2 round guys.
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I am not a Mettenberger fan. Big arm but poor decision maker. Not thanks.
I presume you meant Aaron Murray Georgia? I do like him and if he was available in round 4 or 5 I would take him, even if we take a Qb in round 1. However, if you do not take a Qb in round 1 with the plan of getting Murray late, be carful. I would not be the least bit surprised if he goes 3rd round and I can envision him going late 2nd.
Be careful projecting guys. A lot of people had this same strategy with Russell Wilson. Pass on the 1st round Qb, grab Wilson in the 4th or 5th. As we all know Seattle snatched him up in the 3rd.
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Mettenberger really turned it around this year with Cam Cameron. He was looking pretty solid in his decision making this year. And yeah, Aaron Murray dunno why I typed AJ, but anyway he has two knocks on him where he's coming off an ACL tear and he's short where Russell Wilson was just short.
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I frequently confuse Aaron Murray and AJ McCarron. Not sure why but glad I am not the only one.
I disagree with Mettenberger. Maybe his decision making improved this year (he wasn't even on my radar last year) but it still stinks. He gets away with some stuff because of his arm but if you watch his gme film you will often see him throw into double coverage when there is a wide open receiver on the other side of the field. jmo
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Im very skeptical of Johnny, but I know a lot of guys I respect, both on this board and outside, that are all in on him. I guess I just don't see it.
Anyway, what gets under-discussed around here is the fact, that he had the luxury to have a top 10 WR to play hail Mary football, along with two high 1st roun OT protecting his butt. Me thinks Johnny was the one benefiting more from them than Vice versa. His shenjenigans will look really stupid in the NFL without superior protection and an AJ Green-like WR with whom you can play backyard football.
It will be interes ing to follow the pro careers of those Four Aggies...
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Im very skeptical of Johnny, but I know a lot of guys I respect, both on this board and outside, that are all in on him. I guess I just don't see it.
Anyway, what gets under-discussed around here is the fact, that he had the luxury to have a top 10 WR to play hail Mary football, along with two high 1st roun OT protecting his butt. Me thinks Johnny was the one benefiting more from them than Vice versa. His shenjenigans will look really stupid in the NFL without superior protection and an AJ Green-like WR with whom you can play backyard football.
It will be interesting to follow the pro careers of those Four Aggies...
if he came here...he'd have gordon, ya know...most yards this season and all that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Yeah that stuck out to me in DJs post also.
I actually think Gordon is better than Green. At least he has more raw talent, and I am a huge Green fan.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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FWIW, I think Cedric Ogbuehi is waaaay overrated.
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Sure, he'd have Gordon and JT, but my point was another one. My fault for not being more clear.
Playing alongside 3 Top 15 picks means (no matter what one thinks oft heir NFL outlook) those guys were MUCH better than their opposition, they dominated them. The "gap" between Evans, Mathews, Ogbu?? and the guys they faced is much bigger than JT and Gordon facing the AVG DE or CB In the NFL.
Also, as much as I love Gordon's game, he's not the "go getter" type of WR like AJ Green is. Dalton is only still starting because he can throw jump balls to him. Gordon I consider more of a wuss when it comes to jump balls. He's electric and physical once he has the ball, but not so much fighting for it. That's one of his weaknesses he has to improve imho.
All that because I see a "jump ball" QB in johnny. I still can't believe that he gets props for his chicken running-hail mary vs Bama. That was a stupid throw, no matter the outcome. And that play is my point in a nutshell. In the NFL, more often than in College, this play will get you in trouble or simply fail. The odds in College for this crap are much better than in the NFL, because he has superior protection vs rush to run around like a beheaded chicken and because he has a much bigger WR-CB mismatch than he'll get in the NFL.
To me, he still looks like an odd mix of Tebow, RG3 and Tannehill, D.Flutie….with T.Owens ego. Not sure I'd roll the dice with a top 5 pick on him, but I could see this FO do it simply because they have Jimmy's gun to their head. Boom or bust, baby.
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j/c...
Which QB should we draft?
Code:
A B C D
Arm Strength 7 9 7 5
Accuracy 8 7 5 5
Mobility 9 8 8 7
Pre-Snap Adjustments 6 8 6 3
Size 4 7 5 9
College Competition 10 4 5 5
Leadership ? 9 4 6 7
What other categories would you include? "It"?
Based on those numbers alone, I would take A first, B a close second, C is a late second pick and D is a 3rd or 4th round pick... but I'm pretty sure I know the names and it won't go that way.
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I'm pretty sure it won't go that way, either. Definitely feels like something (or maybe many somethings) important is/are missing from that table, but I can't put my finger on exactly what those things are.
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Good point.
That running around and throwing it up went a whooping ten yards, and that gets picked every single time in the nfl.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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I think the "running around and throwing it up for grabs" aspect of JFootballs game is being overplayed. Yes I know he got away with it once in a while in college and it's not likely to work nearly as well in the NFL...... but more often than not I saw him break containment and throw accurate passes on the run... more accurate than anybody else in the discussion. I also saw him look very comfortable in the pocket and have success, when he had a pocket.... does he give up on the pocket too soon? Yes, he probably does but so do almost all of the really athletic QBs coming out of college... Whoever the Browns hire as a coach will have to fit the offense to him and over time help him adjust to the NFL until a nice happy medium can be attained that utilizes his strengths but is still sustainable in the NFL.. and I think that's doable. It does crack me up that we have the same discussions about the same positions every year and the challenges of evaluating those positions... I was speaking to a guy I know about the difference between Evans and Watkins the other day... he said he liked Evans because he catches the ball better in traffic but he has trouble getting separation... then on Watkins he said it's hard to tell how well he catches in traffic because he's always wide open... so doesn't that mean he gets better separation? 
yebat' Putin
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The advance statistics who that while, yes he does scramble more than he "maneuvers" the pocket. He throws from the pocket almost 70% of this throws. So yes, the whole "running around and chucking it up" is almost complete garbage.
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j/c:
I have been reading all the qb threads and I can't but think that a lot of guys are making observations w/out actually observing the guys play very much.
I knew we needed a qb before the year started. Remember......I was the guy saying that Norv's offense wouldn't help Weeden that much? Therefore, I have studied these QBs all year long. I have watched as much as could of each one. I was praising Bortles before any of the media guys were.
People are making things up about Manziel. He is a darn good leader on the field. His teammates gravitate towards him. His deep ball accuracy might be the best of any of the top qbs. His football smarts are extremely underrated. He reads coverages better than anyone other than Teddy. I think people are reading more press clippings---especially the ones that were published during the off-season---rather than actually watching the guy play.
Bridgewater is the best--and safest--qb of all them. He is the smartest of them. I am telling you guys that reading defenses pre-snap and reading coverages post-snap are way more important than almost any other factor.
Bortles is third on my list. I do worry about his decision making at times. He didn't throw a lot of picks, but he doesn't always read the safety.
Mettenberger is a statue. He is very tall. He has the big arm. So did Weeden. Big deal. He is erratic at times and makes too many poor decisions. He's a 4th round talent.
Carr is a wuss, just like his brother. Panics at the first sign of pressure. Gets happy feet. Will take a lot of sacks and will be inaccurate in the pros. I wouldn't even draft that guy. But yeah..........he has a great arm and great size.
I like Fales. His arm is too weak to be drafted high, but he would be an interesting guy in the 3rd or 4th round. Solid backup material.
McCarron. Pop gun arm that will not allow him to drive the ball into tight windows. You don't need a cannon, but you can't have a toy gun, either.
Murray. Another 3rd or 4th round guy.
I say we make a move to get either Teddy or Johnny Football. This is our best chance to get the guy. I say.............make it happen.
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I am telling you guys that reading defenses pre-snap and reading coverages post-snap are way more important than almost any other factor.
I would echo this into infinity. If you don't know what to do, it won't matter one bit what you CAN do.
These are the qualities that make Peyton Manning potentially the greatest QB of all time.
Of course, if you don't have the physical skills to go with it, you end up with Ken Dorsey.... but for the QB position, the mental skills are definitely more important than the physical ones.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Cool.............that's two things we have agreed on recently.  I posted something similar to this on the QB thread in the Pure Football forum, but it is relevant here. I am describing the following qbs when they came out of college. Manning: Tall and skinny. Luck: Stocky. Powerful build. Wilson: Short, w/a slight build. Brady: Tall and as skinny as they come. Rodgers: Stocky, but a little shorter than desirable. Big Ben: Built like an offensive tackle. Brees: Short. What do all of those top QBs have in common? Size? Arm strength? Nope.......it's the fact that all of these guys are football smart. They read defenses to put their teams in good situations. They read coverages after the snap. Brains.............and I am not talking about academic brains or street smarts......I am talking about football brains...............it is the common denominator.
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Yeah, but I would imagine that kind of stuff, reading coverages and defenses, we can't really tell. Isn't that more of a sit down thing? We have no idea what these guys are doing in college, and what they are capable of.
Everyone said RG3 was a one read guy in college, but aside from his injuries, I'd say he's been pretty good.
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I agree and disagree.
It was hard evaluating qbs this year because so many play in Spread offenses. They typically have one read.
However, Teddy and Manziel did indeed go through their progressions. I posted some examples of Teddy doing just that. Great pictures of him recognizing the blitz, eluding it, and exploiting the holes in the coverage.
I disagree w/RGIII doing a good job of reading coverages. For example...and you may have seen this game.......the last Monday night game he played was revealing. 7 or 8 of his 17 completions were WR screens. He was baffled when trying to look downfield. He took needless sacks because he couldn't read the coverages.
It was great last year when he could run like no one else could. This year, he was forced to be a regular qb and the results were revealing. He doesn't do a good job of reading coverages.
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Quote:
Cool.............that's two things we have agreed on recently.
I posted something similar to this on the QB thread in the Pure Football forum, but it is relevant here. I am describing the following qbs when they came out of college.
Manning: Tall and skinny.
Luck: Stocky. Powerful build.
Wilson: Short, w/a slight build.
Brady: Tall and as skinny as they come.
Rodgers: Stocky, but a little shorter than desirable.
Big Ben: Built like an offensive tackle.
Brees: Short.
What do all of those top QBs have in common? Size? Arm strength? Nope.......it's the fact that all of these guys are football smart. They read defenses to put their teams in good situations. They read coverages after the snap.
Brains.............and I am not talking about academic brains or street smarts......I am talking about football brains...............it is the common denominator.
I agree with where you are going with your thoughts. But, did they all have that skill coming into the NFL? Because all had a varying degrees od success in college. Or is the common trailt their work/study habits.
Some of the most talented players fail because of bad work/study habits. If 3 QB's all fairly equal in terms of strengths and weaknesses I would be willing to beat the 1 with the best work/study habits will be the most successful.
That is where the FO needs to do their homework on these QB's in my opinion.
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I agree that it's a necessary trait, but I just want to add (and I'm not saying you're saying the contrary) but that's not all that is required. Ken Dorsey. Kellen Moore. Lots of guys have come through that just don't have the skills.
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Of course.
I made another post where I talked about several qbs. I ruled out McCarron because his arm is so poor. I know you weren't accusing me, and I am saying this more for others who reading it than actually speaking to you, but obviously you have to have an good skill set to even have a chance.
Teddy, Manziel, and Bortles have enough physical tools to succeed. They aren't Ken Dorsey. I loved Dorsey's mind. Ty Detmer's, too. They just didn't have the arsenal that is required.
I'm telling you what, Steve......and you know I respect your football knowledge........we will be making a mistake of colossal proportions if we don't get a franchise qb this year. We have the ammunition. We have a decent draft spot. Not too low, like it might be next year. There are 2----maybe 3 franchise guys available. We need a stud qb and this is going to be our best opportunity to make it happen.
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I know you two don't make much of me as a football guy.....but just take Johnny Football. Even a old fat guy like me can figure that out.
I don't care what his negatives might be.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I never said that about you.
You blow my mind at times. Other times you make great points. Regardless, you are probably a heckuva lot smarter than me in life.
And that is more important.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
There are a couple of things about Wilson that make him so darn good: (beyond the obvious football smarts, accuracy, ball placement, leadership, arm, running ability, and so on)
He knows how to move in the pocket and find throwing lanes. He is so natural doing it that it seems effortless. He is short, but he almost never gets balls batted down.In fact, I read an article about this the other day and it had him as one of the best in the NFL in not having passes batted down, despite his height.
He understands pressure, what is pressure, and what can be avoided with a simple step. He rarely seems to panic in the pocket.
He has the best .... yeah, even better than Manning's IMHO ..... best in the NFL play fake. He puts that ball out and then hides it so well that he has faked out the camera many times. I remember seeing one where the play fake ran left, and the whole defense went to stop it. The camera wasn't on Wilson at all ...... until they realized that he still had the ball.
There was one more point that I wanted to make about him, but it slips my mind now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805 |
Quote:
We need a stud qb and this is going to be our best opportunity to make it happen.
Absolutely no mistake about it. The worst possible scenario here would be if we passed up one of the big 3 with the sole thought that Hoyer is our guy going forward.
HORRIBLE mistake that would be.
You keep mentioning pre and post snap reads along with looking off a safety.
The beauty of that is almost all QB's learn this as they gain experience adjusting to the speed of the game. Some just don't have the mental capacity to ever grip that. Ala our own Weeden.
Look no further than Manning. Peyton that is. His rookie year was littered with picks all over the place. For a reason. He's where he is today because he DOES have the mental capacity to understand pre and post snap reads along with looking off a safety. THAT is the single one thing that you cannot project in any QB. THAT is what makes them successes or failures in this league.
This is why I LOVE BORTLES. He's got everything. And when he gets that part of the game down, I firmly believe he will be the BEST of this class in 3 years. Remember. These guys are Juniors and Red Sophmore's in Manziel's case. All 3 have things to learn and improve on.
You and I are on the same page here except in our rankings of these guys. My only concern with Bridgewater is his build. I'm not big on bean-poles. I wasn't crazy about RGIII because of it.
My only concern about Manziel is can he temper down that crazy running around stuff. It's exciting as hell and makes you go WOW at times, but you cannot consistently do that in this league. It only takes one blind side shot from a LB that he doesn't see when he's doing these 360's. I almost think he's a separated shoulder waiting to happen. It's a real concern and I just hope it doesn't happen if we end up with him.
My only concern with Bortles is the one thing you cannot project. Therefore with me, this is how I rank these 3.
Bortles
Bridgewater
Manziel
I'd take any of the 3, but I'm not waiting till pick 4.
We MUST get to #2 regardless what it takes.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
We MUST get to #2 regardless what it takes.
I disagree with that part.
I'm not giving up another 1st round pick to move up 2 spots. Especially if your point is that we need one of the 3.
I SERIOUSLY doubt QBs go 1-2-3. I feel like ATL trading into 2 is more likely than any other team.
Hell one of them could have a bad pro day, someone else could have a great one, and then gets pushed up the board. There is A LOT of stuff that can happen before May (Ugh. May)
A lot of people would of given up what we got for RG3, but that's hindsight, if we hit all those pics, they wouldn't (well some still might)
We have a great opportunity to add multiple pieces to a team that showed it still needs multiple pieces.
You wann take a QB at 4, and grab those pieces later, that's fine. Don't sell the farm just to put more pressure on the guy...
I mean... If we go ham in FA, I'm allowed to change my opinion :P
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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