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I'll leave it at that. I've substantiated my position.., you may not like it or believe it, but it's what I believe and there is some facts to at least make my position plausible.
I don't have a problem w/your position. Not at all.
I am not trying to change your mind. I don't need others to see it my way.
However, I do think I have the right to express my opinion w/out all the biting rhetoric that is so common on this board. Furthermore, I do not understand why people get so upset about both sides of an argument being presented. I am not saying you feel that way because I have seen you argue the other side. It's just a general statement.
and I can appriciate that you don't have a problem with my position, but you took a position saying you didn't understand all the (what did you call it) hate for Banner.. I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember your exact words.
I gave you a picture of my reasoning and it seems clear you cannot refute my argument.
So, did I change your mind? do you now accept he was a mistake and that he misled Haslam as to his ability and experience? Did I at least give you reason to reassess your thoughts on the man and his background and experience?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Come on, man. It's been that way for years. It happens w/almost every player, coach, GM, etc.
If most think a guy stinks, they get mad if you defend them. If they think a guy is good, they get upset if you point out a weakness. If they think a GM is great, don't you dare criticize him about anything. If they don't like the guy, he is a stooge.
I think there are arguments to be made on both sides most of the time. I also think that sometimes, the opinions on the boards are whacked. I mean.......completely whacked, such as the ones thinking Weeden would magically turn it around because he was playing w/Norv.
You are a smart guy and I respect your intelligence. I wish we could have better conversations. Have you ever noticed how my debates w/ddubia go? Heck, Diam comes off as a jerk, but we actually have good debates. Ezyre19 and I had a good discussion. Razor and I disagree on when to draft a qb and who to draft, but it was a good discussion. There just are not that many people on here that want to debate in that way.
It's like they feel exposed if someone challenges their opinion. It's so important to appear to be right. There are guys on here who agree w/me, but can't bring themselves to say it, so they respond to another poster. LOL man..............
Are you telling me you haven't recognized any of that?
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No, you did not change my mind.
I don't have a problem w/your take and I do think parts of what you say are true. However, I think there are other aspects that you are not giving much credence to.
We don't have to agree, Daman. It's cool to debate it. I will say I am already getting tired of defending Banner and its only been a couple of days. He's gone. Nothing can be done about it now.
Like I said earlier, I will support the new regime............at least until they pass on Teddy or Manziel and draft a WR. Then, I will raise holy hell and probably quit watching the team until they show me they can win again.
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Vers Said:
He said I was a contrarian who put more emphasis on opposing popular opinion than on the facts and that it wasn't an admirable trait.
Did you think that was a compliment?
And when have I ever lied about anything?
Not defending how he said it but you did post this:
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Vers said:
If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance. I realize that seeing both sides of an argument upsets the little world that some of you live in, but in many circles, a good debate is actually appreciated.
That sounds like a contrarian to me... why not just post what you honestly think even if it happens to be in line with the vast majority of other posters? Would be less confusing I think. jmho
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Are you telling me you haven't recognized any of that?
I think it is very rare that a person actually gets upset because of a disagreement.
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I do post honestly. However, there are typically two sides to each event. I know that Banner has faults. I also know that he has strengths. Not sure what is so hard to understand?
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This is so hard to understand: Quote:
If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance.
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Did I say that?
Yes.
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LOL...........I was asking about this comment... Quote:
I think it is very rare that a person actually gets upset because of a disagreement.
I don't recall saying that.
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This is so hard to understand:
Quote:
If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance.
It's not that hard. Banner, like almost every executive, coach, player has both positives and negatives.
I believe that people are obsessed w/concentrating on his negatives. They dismiss the good things w/conciliatory remarks and focus on trivial matters such as his arrogance. Do you realize how many arrogant people there are in authoritarian positions? Was Holmgren not arrogant? Yet, they didn't bash him for it.
Now, if people were ONLY pointing out the good things about Banner, than I would be inclined to point out his negatives, such as not being the easiest guy to approach, his lack of experience at evaluating players, etc.
I simply do not like it when one side of the argument is overly stressed while the other side is either ignored or dismissed as not very important.
Not sure what is so hard to understand. And no, it is not contrarian and lacking factual evidence.
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The more I hear Pettine talk, the better I feel about him. If he's half the coach he is as a man, we're in for a fun time.
Really? He said I was a contrarian who put more emphasis on opposing popular opinion than on the facts and that it wasn't an admirable trait.
Did you think that was a compliment?
And when have I ever lied about anything?
Couple of quick points, you quoted one of my posts, but actually responded to another,, had me a little confused there.. Please don't do that. I'm confused enough without your help 
Another point is, I have no idea what your talking about with the lying thing. So I'm afraid I'm at a total loss there.
No intent to offend, but honestly, when he called you a contrarian (sp) he responded to something you wrote and frankly, I agree with him.
Take a moment, go back and read what you wrote to get him to say that. My guess is that you are way smarter than to think that it's not possible you caused that remark.
Oh,, and I didn't think you being a contrairian was a bad thing. so am I. I get people all riled up when I take a stand and won't back down... LOL I get it all the time. (were you around when I equated congress to terrorists,, Holy hell man,, I got beat on relentlessly LOL I enjoyed that or how about the twitter thing, I swear to you, I think its idiot to allow twitter on here, but I'm getting beat on about that as well)
So while I didn't miss anything, I just didn't think what he called you was all that bad. Thus I didn't equate it to any name calling. Did you get that?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You really need to improve your reading comprehension. I know exactly what he said.
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No, you did not change my mind.
I don't have a problem w/your take and I do think parts of what you say are true. However, I think there are other aspects that you are not giving much credence to.
We don't have to agree, Daman. It's cool to debate it. I will say I am already getting tired of defending Banner and its only been a couple of days. He's gone. Nothing can be done about it now.
Like I said earlier, I will support the new regime............at least until they pass on Teddy or Manziel and draft a WR. Then, I will raise holy hell and probably quit watching the team until they show me they can win again.
What am I not giving proper credence too?
If and it's a big IF, Manziel or Teddy or both are there when we draft, I hardly think they'd pass. But if they are both gone, I'd assume you'd be ok with a top WR? Right?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Years ago, someone on the boards had a little animated GIF of a cowboy beating a dead horse.
This old FO stuff is a dead horse....yawn.
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I don't think anyone ever doubted Banner's business acumen, nor had any problem with him on that level.
Heck of a bean counter, good at drumming up business and sales.
That said, judging by reports from now-departed coaches like Norv, I would say that he wasn't exactly a well respected boss. He may know his business stuff, but by most accounts he was anything but a good leader.
Unfortunately, we need just a wee bit more than that on the football side of things.
This will explain some of what was gong on..
Mike Lombardi provided information on candidates and gave his thoughts on such. He had his favorite, Josh McDaniels and the team owner interviewed and really liked McDaniels --
Due to how McDaniels was the preconceived pick from the Lombardi end and Banner having his own thoughts, Haslam became concerned with those in the FO.
Lombardi stuck his neck out there by basically disagreeing and having some backbone in dealing with Banner in the later stages
.Haslam had heard the rumors, got to see first hand how Banner operated and also learned how Banner attempted to manipulate the assistant coach hiring process for Shanahan.
He also did not want Shanahan.Banner wanted to wait on Quinn while Haslam liked Petitne.
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Once again, are you speculating, offering your opinion, or can you prove any of it?
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What did I tell U yesterday ? There's nothing I need to prove.If I were speculating, I would say so.
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If you want someone to take what you're saying with any interest. Some sort of proof is required..
There are people on this board that question common knowledge if an article isn't posted..
But I assume you don't care what anyone else thinks about how you know what you know..
And then I would just question what's the point of giving knowledge if you have no proof it's knowledge..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I believe him 100%. Not because it's what I want to hear, but because I've grown to trust his posting over many years. And I highly doubt he cares who doesn't believe it. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
If you want someone to take what you're saying with any interest. Some sort of proof is required..
There are people on this board that question common knowledge if an article isn't posted..
But I assume you don't care what anyone else thinks about how you know what you know..
And then I would just question what's the point of giving knowledge if you have no proof it's knowledge..
This ain't a court of law.....but if U read my earlier posts , U will see that what I post isn't a article. If I do have a article I will post a link.
Like I said since I do not post here as often as I used to, I try to share what I am privy to.
No one has to believe it or not..it's just there to inform others.
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If most think a guy stinks, they get mad if you defend them. If they think a guy is good, they get upset if you point out a weakness. If they think a GM is great, don't you dare criticize him about anything. If they don't like the guy, he is a stooge.
This the exact reason I don't post very frequently. If you disagree or offer a different position on something, you are automatically lumped into one side or the other. Apologist or hater are the terms used. It doesn't matter that most is opinion.
Myself saw good and bad in both Banner and Lombardi. I saw some good with Holmgren, but was blinded by optimism. I have given all the changes over the years time to prove themselves. I'm not one who is up on things like FO guys. I have no set perception of Haslam, but while this latest move could be considered knee jerk, successful CEOs and corporate leaders need to make decisions like he did without worrying about public backlash.
Over thew years between this and the old board, I found agreement with many people, some others lambasted while others are still respected for their opinion. Myself loved some of the stuff Diam said. I was always intrigued by your posts also, but in no way would I say I agreed with everything from either of you. Eotab has always been one of my favorites, but I even disagree with some things be says.
I guess my point is I like that there is difference in opinion, it makes us all better. If someone can't look at the other side and at least try to understand their reasoning, they are losing out IMO. Opinions are the venting of ones feelings. They can change, and that is a good thing, at least in life, not so much on these boards. Posters love to pigeon hole others once they say something, as if they never have changed their minds in their life.
Changing feelings about a subject is healthy, if it comes from true revelations about the subject. Daman has been blasted for years as a "fence sitter" and other IMO derogatory ways, yet he always backs up his feelings, I respect that a lot. I like Daman's opinion, but that doesn't mean I think he is always right, just that he has convictions and stands with them. To me that is an admirable trait.
I just wish many would just ask why someone feels the way they do without looking at them as right or wrong. Just explain why you disagree, don't try to belittle someone for their opinions.
Vers, my advice to you, take it or leave it, is just ignore the baiting you sometimes get. I would say the same to Django. He's someone that I usually disagree with, but he always seems to explain why he feels he way he does.
Anyway, sorry for losing site of the topic of the thread.
#gmstrong
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Attack has been a member of this board for a long time. I have read many of his posts and would trust his insider information more than something posted by Mary Kay or Grossi from one of their unnamed league sources.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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"Contrarian" is not name calling, nor is qualifying that label by saying it isn't admirable. I based that judgment on you saying you will argue different sides of an issue depending on where popular opinion lies. But to be honest, I doubt you really do that. Have you ever argued a position you didn't actually believe? Or, perhaps you are a true relativist, in which case it would be hard to take any of your positions seriously given that they don't come from genuinely held beliefs.
So, here's my contribution to this discussion. Perception is everything. If it is in fact the case that Banner was making it hard to do business in the NFL, then he had to go. Holding Haslam accountable for hiring him has some merit, but I don't think you can really get the full measure of a person from an interview. There is an element of luck to hiring people. You can only reduce that risk so much with the limited information you have about that person. So, I don't really blame Haslam all that much.
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I believe him 100%.
Not because it's what I want to hear, but because I've grown to trust his posting over many years.
And I highly doubt he cares who doesn't believe it.
Yep, Attack is the real deal.
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Oh geez, come on. All Attack is doing is regurgitating stuff he reads over on the insider section of the OBR. Know how I know? Because I am also a subscriber and read the same stuff. As a matter of fact, anyone who is willing to pony up $9.95/month can have the same privilege. Attack nearly plagarizes half of his posts from that site.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Oh geez, come on. All Attack is doing is regurgitating stuff he reads over on the insider section of the OBR. Know how I know? Because I am also a subscriber and read the same stuff. As a matter of fact, anyone who is willing to pony up $9.95/month can have the same privilege. Attack nearly plagarizes half if his posts from that site.
I would say this is pretty spot on.......
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I don't believe losing Banner was a good thing. I will support the new guy, but I'm not going to be stupid about this and admit to that.
Once again we get to disagree 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I agree w/this.
Look, I am not trying to call Attack out. What bothers me is that he presents it in a way that indicates he knows someone on the team which would lead to people believing it. The Insider information is nice, but one must understand that they are not always accurate.
Just trying to keep it real.
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Nice post. We don't always agree, but I think we both get where the other is coming from.
Mantis: The part that bothered me was where you said I would rather oppose popular opinion than use facts. That sounds like a euphemism for saying I am a liar. And of course, I believe in what I say. I am just saying that there are two sides to every story and I like to bring up the other "facts" in the story if the majority of people are ignoring them. Not sure how that is a bad thing???????
GM: We've been doing a lot of that lately, bro................but, it's all good.
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You always rely on facts. No problem there. It's the interpretation of the facts where your contrarian nature comes out. One can only be a liar about facts, so you aren't that. But sometimes when reading your posts I wonder if you are trying to "stir things up" for the sake of balance, and as a result it's harder to take you seriously. But like I said, I don't think you are a true relativist. I think you really do believe everything you post. As for Banner, I liked a lot of the stuff he was doing last year. It's unfortunate he didn't have a better personality because his skills would have been valuable for this team.
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Daman...that was a great post. Thank you for educating me.
Contrarian - sorry 4 syllables that cannot register on a Sports message board for me 
Vers I won't get into it cause I know it upsets you...but take a read of your posts you made some contradictions and I'm talking just this page
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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He also did not want Shanahan.
Who is "HE" Banner or Haslam...I assume Banner. Thanks for sharing.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Daman...that was a great post. Thank you for educating me.
Contrarian - sorry 4 syllables that cannot register on a Sports message board for me
Vers I won't get into it cause I know it upsets you...but take a read of your posts you made some contradictions and I'm talking just this page
+2
Personally I think Banner did some great things for Cleveland. But I think firing the coaching staff after only 1 year is so bad that when you combine it with even just some of the other negative stuff being discussed (allowing for much of it to maybe be false) then ya... it was time to send him packing. It's all so very subjective though. Let's all hope that Farmer/Pettine can work well together. Both are rookies and that does worry me... but it worries me less than having Banner making draft picks so... ya.
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I think you're a weak contrarian. A true contrarian would've argued to hang onto Weeden in that "I want to leave Cleveland" thread. 
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Quote:
Daman...that was a great post. Thank you for educating me.
Contrarian - sorry 4 syllables that cannot register on a Sports message board for me
Vers I won't get into it cause I know it upsets you...but take a read of your posts you made some contradictions and I'm talking just this page
What actually frightens me is that all of that info was available when Banner was hired and I said all that back then. It was almost completely ignored so I figured, hey, maybe I'm wrong. As it turns out, I wasn't. Sorry to report that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Overall, Banner did do quite a few good things for the Browns.
Not the least of which is that he left us with a ton of CAP room, 10 picks (with 2 being in the first round), a pretty darn good infrastructure that includes Farmer and Schiener.
Financially, I'd bet you that the balance sheet is in excellent order and it appears that everything from a legal stand point is in order.
He probably had a lot to do with the Stadium upgrades that are underway as well.
So, given his strengths, adminstratively, he's left us in very good shape or so it appears.
I have never once questioned his ability in those areas. Clearly he's a pro in that regard. it's the football things that always made me shutter. But, I gotta say this as well, he did well with the Richardson trade and the biggest thing might have been that he didn't trade Gordon when there were supposed to be offers on the table for him..
But to counteract that, he left a gaping hole at RB and WR. So there you have it, most of his success came in the form of setting up the business to succeed, but not the team on the field.
That of course is JMO...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think he served his purpose for Haslam. Get the organization in the right direction (not talking the field part but internally) I just think he bit off more than he could chew and this Industry (NFL) seems to need dynamic leaders off the field as well as around.
Banner was smart but not a good leader. Btw if it bothers posters that they post in Orange when answering I would fix that but if it doesn't matter then I'll leave it alone.
I do think we just stream lined our FO with some pretty good talents.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Financially, I'd bet you that the balance sheet is in excellent order
With paying 2 former head coaches, 2 former GMs, 1 former President, and one former CEO?
I dunno.
(only partially joking)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Surely is a lot of frogskins right there... about 16 mil alone in just the former coaches aspect (Chud and Pat). 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum FO changes. Part 2
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