Quote: What I am saying is that I think the GM should acquire the players w/input from the coaching staff.
I think the coaching staff should choose who is on the roster w/some input from the GM and the coaching staff should have total control over who plays.
We saw first hand what could happen if the GM has total control over the roster when Phil Savage was here. It wasn't pretty.
So, you're basically saying the "consensus" thing didn't work, since they were not happy with the decisions the HC THEY hired made. It was a dis-sensus from day one....and to me it was pretty obvious that LomBanner had a hand in roster decisions as NO HC wants to drag around 10 or so players on the 53 who should be developed on the PS instead. That was a dead giveaway for me that those decisions worked both ways. Then there's the reported FB "fight", with Chud wanting a REAL FB and the FO keeping Obi and the 3 backup/developmental H-Backs in Smith, Milton and Gray.
It can work and fail both ways with the 53 decision. Simply depends on how good the guys are on their job. I prefer the GM to make the 53, simply because he is the no1 talent evaluator, NOT the coach. You say the downside of this is a GM "forcing" his guys on the coach? Well, we've seen the opposite too with your buddy Mangini, who kept aging ST guy after another leaving talentless roster with no depth and developmental talent. So, if you let a coach decide, those tend to do what's best for them short term and they tend to be overly loyal to guys they start to like and relate to on a daily basis. They can be loyal to a fault too. I actually the risk on the HC side is more bigger because of the lack of distance....overall, there's up and downside to both structures. That's reality.
Speaking of buddies....here's what your latest Napoleon mancrush said a year ago:
"We are not asking for a free pass this year or any year. They (fans) should expect the team to be better. They should expect it to be obvious that things are different. I'm happy being held to that standard, and I'm happy having everybody held to that standard." - Joe Banner
Farmer said in his interview that while Jimmy told him he would have control over the 53, that he would work closely with the coaches and scouts taking their input and factoring in his own assessment before making any decisions. It sounded to me like the coaches and scouts would have plenty of input, and more importantly, their input would carry actual weight. I get the impression Farmer is more interested in getting it right than in being right.
That'd be a good start, but talk is cheap. He has no experience as a College scout and his Pro Personnel track record with the Chiefs was pretty bad, so my hopes aren't exactly sky high when it comes to competency, as he's basically another apprentice running the show now. But hopefully, he's as humble as he sounds and listens to the guys around him. We will see, but he has a tough road ahead of him with some tough decisions to make in the upcoming months. He's been thrown into the water and it's sink or swim from the get go for him. We will find out about him pretty soon...
Yes we will. Wasn't he the assistant GM in KC, not just in charge of pro personnel? In any case, today I feel much better about our chances going into free agency and the draft with Farmer, Pettine, Shanahan and the scouts evaluating than I did yesterday knowing the major decisions would fall to Banner and Lombardi. While there is plenty of inexperience on the table, overall and in the long run I firmly believe we're in better hands.
Quote: Yes we will. Wasn't he the assistant GM in KC, not just in charge of pro personnel? In any case, today I feel much better about our chances going into free agency and the draft with Farmer, Pettine, Shanahan and the scouts evaluating than I did yesterday knowing the major decisions would fall to Banner and Lombardi. While there is plenty of inexperience on the table, overall and in the long run I firmly believe we're in better hands.
This is how I felt the moment I heard Banner and Lombardi were gone. The Browns are better off today than the start of yesterday...IMO.
Marla Ridenour: Jimmy Haslam’s bold firings show clarity, not Browns’ dysfunction
By Marla Ridenour Beacon Journal sports columnist
BEREA: At first glance, owner Jimmy Haslam’s continually quick trigger finger looks as outrageous as anything that’s been done with the Browns since the secret handshake on the tarmac in Baltimore. But the Browns owner’s shocking move to dismiss CEO Joe Banner and General Manager Mike Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to Lombardi’s post Tuesday was actually the first step on the road back to respectability. It is hard to believe Haslam was so bold, refusing to let the team muddle through the most crucial offseason in franchise history with the wrong organizational structure and the wrong men in charge of personnel decisions. It was looking like it would take another 11 months of missteps, which would have set the Browns back five more years, considering their 10 draft picks and abundant salary cap space and crucial choices to be made in free agency. It is also hard to believe Haslam realized relatively quickly he didn’t mesh with Banner or had given him too much power. Instead of keeping Banner on the business side, Haslam retained President Alec Scheiner and increased his responsibilities, which now might include dealing with the city of Cleveland on stadium issues and the upcoming sin-tax vote. Banner will stay on in a transition role for no more than two months. The most believable part of it all was the promotion of Farmer, which Haslam seemed to hint was in the works at coach Mike Pettine’s introductory news conference Jan. 23. Haslam said then he had spent an hour talking at lunch with Farmer, who took himself out of the running for the Miami Dolphins general manager job the same day. Farmer said Haslam made him no guarantee, but both Haslam and Banner touted Farmer’s abilities after Pettine spoke. Still under federal investigation for rebate fraud by his Pilot Flying J truck stop company, Haslam is staking the Browns’ future on two up-and-coming stars — Farmer, 39, and Scheiner, 43 — and Pettine, 47, an impressive but unproven rookie coach and former Buffalo Bills defensive coordinator. Farmer becomes the seventh African-American general manager in the NFL, the most in league history, and the first with the Browns. “I definitely am very proud and happy for this day,” Farmer said of the significance of his hiring for minorities. “As I get older, my mom and dad are dear to me and I wanted them to see this moment in my life. I’m extremely excited for them to witness their son achieve this milestone that I kind of set forth for myself.” Haslam left open the position of CEO, which could eventually be filled by his close friend from the University of Tennessee, Peyton Manning. The Denver Broncos quarterback turns 38 next month, but is expected to be heavily pursued as a network television analyst when he retires. If that lucrative and relatively easy job doesn’t appeal to him, it has long been speculated that Manning could elect to follow in the footsteps of John Elway, the Broncos’ executive vice president of football operations. The Browns took a beating nationally, but Haslam’s gutsy “streamlining” was cheered locally. Haslam could organize a pep rally for this weekend and sell out FirstEnergy Stadium in a matter of hours. It does seem totally backward to hire the coach before the GM, especially since Farmer did not travel during the interview process and was mainly charged with researching Pettine’s credentials. But Farmer and Pettine seem to have the people skills to make their relationship work. It looks bad for Haslam to have fired two regimes — coach Pat Shurmur, General Manager Tom Heckert and President Mike Holmgren, then first-year coach Rob Chudzinski, Banner and Lombardi — in his 16 months in charge. That’s a lot of scalps, fueling the perception that Haslam has no clue what he’s doing. But the first three were hires of now-minority owner Randy Lerner, who might still be paying them. With the latter three, Haslam should be lauded for trying to make things right, even though Chudzinski deserved more time. Haslam might have been reacting to Banner’s and Lombardi’s failure to deliver a coach like Bill O’Brien (hired by the Houston Texans) or Josh McDaniels (who remained offensive coordinator of the New England Patriots) or after a falling out with Banner over Seattle Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, who Banner wanted to interview a second time after the Super Bowl. Haslam continued to lash out at the media for criticism over the length of the 25-day coaching search and the fact that at least four candidates, with Wisconsin’s Gary Andersen added to that list Tuesday, took their names out of the running. But something during that process could have led to the duo’s ouster, especially with the charge of the organization’s “radioactivity” coming from the league’s own network. Now some of the radioactivity is gone, although the black cloud of Haslam’s possible indictment still looms. “I will accept comments and criticism about change and I’ll accept responsibility for some of the changes that have been made,” Haslam said. “I underestimated this. It’s a learning curve to be an NFL owner. If you want to look at me as a work in progress, that’s fair to say. I will tell you this: These are the last of the major changes we’re going to make in the organization. We’ll continue to tinker to find ways to improve it and make it better.” What Haslam did Tuesday did not smack of dysfunction. While it was a power coup, with Haslam grabbing the reins from Banner, it also was a brilliant flash of clarity that could get the Browns back on track.
As I was writing this the thread was locked and this continuing thread was started. So I never saw your posts in this new thread. Now that I have I think we are saying the same thing about the structure. Maybe I'm a bit Pollyanna in hoping the GM and HC really work together for the best of the team as Pettine wants it to be but we shall see...
Quote: ddbub: I respect the heck out of you, but I think you are wrong for saying that is the proper set-up and here is why:
Yeah, I stand corrected. Posting too fast without thinking. I guess I'm just so relieved in knowing who the GM is as opposed to the muddy, "consensus" version of which I could never really establish who was in charge of what and led many to believe Banner was in charge of the roster by his own proclamation that he held "final say" on everything.
I've been to family picnics and have seen a bowl containing a pot luck side dish and being wary of even trying it. I never knew exactly what the ingredients were but it somehow didn't look right. At the end of the day that bowl sat nearly full as very few servings were spooned out, probably the cook who brought it and her husband. That told me I wasn't the only one who didn't like the look of it.
Our now former FO was like that to me.
I had no idea what the ingredients were or what amount of each contributed to the overall flavor and final result of the "consensus". It was all murky to me like that crap on the picnic table.
Nonetheless, I tried to buy in. There were things about Banner that I did like. He is a shrewd business man. A wheeler-dealer with experience in getting the best of a deal. I liked the things he said in his interviews and pressers until that last one when they fired Chud. At that one he sounded like he was grasping at straws to defend the firing. But before that, in many ways, I warmed up to Banner. After all, I had no choice. It was either that or be miserable with my team.
I can actually handle the losing better than I could handle the thought that the FO was a murky mess of which I could not define.
I feel better. That was my first post in this thread. No elaboration, just "I feel better". And I do.
At least now I know who everyone is. I know the owner, the president, the GM and the coach. Regardless of the executive structure the titles and the people who hold them is clear. It's like the whole FO has had the mud washed off of it.
Regarding charge of the 53 man roster, I thought most GM's want that distinction. I know Heckert did and that is a small part of why he was let go. I'm not sure if you can have the HC be in charge of the roster unless he's an experienced HC with the ability to juggle both being in charge of the team and in charge of the roster. We hired a rookie HC. I'm ok with the HC. But no one was going to give Pettine the GM job too.
So Farmer is in charge of the 53 man roster and Pettine is in charge of the team. If we continue to keep that separation while both men work together on what the team needs, (i.e. positions the HC wants upgraded), then it is fine with me. That's much better than having the "consensus" meddling in the HC's responsibilities which has been reported about the previous FO to the detriment of the team and finally the firing of the HC.
I have no link to back up my thought that a large part contributing to the firing of Chud was that he refused to be strung up like a puppet controlled by the "consensus".
So, other than having a proven, experienced HC with the credentials to be able to hold the position of HC/GM I'm fine for now with the structure so long as the GM and HC truly work together.
If we have a situation of backstabbing as we had with Savage and RAC with Savage acquiring players in an attempt to build the kind of team he wants instead of working with the HC to build the kind of team the HC wants then it should all work out. I really think Savage was preparing for his HC hire. I hope Farmer is not of the same ilk.
The Cleveland Browns interviewed Ken Whisenhunt for their head-coaching job in each of the past two Januaries, first after he was fired as Arizona’s head coach, and last month when he was employed as San Diego’s offensive coordinator. When Whisenhunt entered the room this year for the interview, he was one of the hottest commodities on the head-coaching market, and the Browns were very interested in him.
Whisenhunt said, “Why didn’t you guys hire me last year?’’
The Browns’ CEO who was in both interviews, Joe Banner, told Whisenhunt he didn’t think the staff he was putting together at the time was “a championship coaching staff.”
Whisenhunt, one NFL source said, was peeved that a man who had never coached and who’d been involved in football mainly on the business side would sit in judgment of his potential coaches.
“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice
Quote: Farmer said in his interview that while Jimmy told him he would have control over the 53, that he would work closely with the coaches and scouts taking their input and factoring in his own assessment before making any decisions. It sounded to me like the coaches and scouts would have plenty of input, and more importantly, their input would carry actual weight. I get the impression Farmer is more interested in getting it right than in being right.
I don't think that it is usually a big deal. I bet that there are very few cases where the coach or GM feel extremely strongly about the 51st, 52nd, or 53rd player, to the point where it becomes a massive issue. Further, I bet that if both present the reasons why they prefer one of the other, it's relatively easy to work out. The only time that "final say" comes into play is if there is a huge disagreement. In the event of such a disagreement, someone has to be the one to decide the issue, and in our case, it's Farmer. Frankly, I see it largely as a non-issue.
Overall, I like how this structure is set up. I didn't understand having an owner (absentee) then a CEO who was a non-football guy making football decisions, a president that handled the business admin, a GM in name only (or so it appeared) an Asst GM that is a Football guy and then a coach and his staff.
This is simple
Owner with the President, GM and Coach all reporting directly to him
Makes sense to me and that's after putting all the personalities aside for a second, the structure just makes sense as long as the Owner is going to be around and it appears that he is,.
J/C I seem to recall a lot of rumors floating around at one time on the boards that people might have been contacting Chud regarding the HC job with the Browns. Reading through the thread, it made me wonder if some of that was true and was a reason that people declined interviews or removed themselves from consideration. The Whisenhunt quote kind of adds a little more weight to that.
If someone contacted Chud and he said something like "You don't want to work for that guy." It seems logical.
I wonder, after reading about the possible "Manning Meeting", if Gase removed his name because Peyton was in his ear and said something similar.
In any event, I was surprised and a little giddy about the news yesterday.
Hopefully, Haslem got it right this time around.....
Quote: I have no link to back up my thought that a large part contributing to the firing of Chud was that he refused to be strung up like a puppet controlled by the "consensus".
Chud was used as a sort of scapegoat for the teams poor record in 2013. ...it had to be someone's fault, so the front office blamed Chud.
I believe Haslam was convinced by Banner and Lombardi that either Josh McDanials or Adam Gase could be hired to replace Chud. But, during the search process, once again, just like last years search for a HC, the top prospects turned down the Browns HC job.
Once again, Haslam was made to look foolish for #1-firing Chud...and #2-not being able to land their target and being forced into an exhausting search that had to be a nightmare for Haslam.
Somewhere near the middle of the search process the words "radioactive" and "toxic" were used to describe why candidates were refusing to take the job as HC of the Browns.
It's not a stretch to believe Haslam began asking himself or others, why the Browns were being described as toxic or radioactive? Haslam either admitted to himself or some close friends, maybe Peyton Manning, gave it to Haslam straight...that Banner and Lombardi were casting a negative shadow over Haslam's franchise that was so bad that coaching candidates refused to work with them.
At some point between firing Chud and yesterday, the light bulb finally came on in Jimmy Haslam's head...he finally figured out that he had made a mistake of historic proportion, hiring Joe Banner to run the football side of the Browns.
By Tom Reed, Northeast Ohio Media Group February 11, 2014 at 8:50 PM
BEREA, Ohio – A decade ago, Les Snead had the opportunity to hire Ray Farmer as a scout for the Atlanta Falcons.
On a day the Browns promoted Farmer to general manager, Snead reflected on the choice he made in 2002.
“Hiring Ray is one of the easiest and best decisions I've ever made,” said Snead, who’s now general manager of the St. Louis Rams.
Browns owner Jimmy Haslam hopes he can make a similar statement in years to come. As part of the franchise’s latest reset, the Browns named Farmer its top football decision-maker Tuesday while announcing the departure of CEO Joe Banner and GM Michael Lombardi.
Many are focused on the continuing dysfunction in Berea and an owner who cleans house more than Molly Maid. But in a league-wide sampling of opinions the decision to promote Farmer is being greeted with mostly favorable reviews.
The 39 year old, who becomes the NFL’s second-youngest GM, has taken the proper steps in climbing the ladder from ex-player to scout to pro personnel director and assistant general manager.
“Ray is a highly-regarded guy around the league,” said former Washington and Houston GM Charley Casserly, now an NFL Network analyst. “Ray Farmer was going to be a general manager within the next 12 months somewhere and that probably played into Cleveland’s decision.
“He’s a bright guy and he’s well organized and I know people around the league who are big fans of his.”
One current NFL executive, talking on conditions of anonymity because he’s not authorized to speak for his franchise, was more direct.
“Ray is absolutely ready for this,” the executive said. “You can say, ‘Well, he’s never run a draft before,’ but everyone has to do it for the first time, right? It’s not like he hasn’t been in war rooms in years past. He was in there last year with Cleveland and was in there in years past with Kansas City.
“By promoting him, the Browns also are giving themselves some continuity. He is familiar with the scouts, he’s done his own scouting and knows how to evaluate talent.”
From a draft standpoint, Cassserly does not believe Farmer has been handicapped by Browns' decision to make the change now rather than after the season. Farmer would have spent weeks occupied by a coaching search, he said. The fact the draft (May 8-10) is two weeks later also affords him more time.
Casserly does wonder about Farmer’s comfort level with a scouting staff he did not hire. The Browns are reportedly adding front-office help in Bill Kuharich, a former Chiefs and New Orleans Saints executive who worked with Farmer in Kansas City. There’s also the matter of Farmer co-existing with new coach Mike Pettine, a man he did not hire.
Snead considers Farmer an excellent communicator, an executive who can be tough without forcing his agenda on someone.
“He is a people person who genuinely wants to build a united team on the field and inside the building," Snead said. “He knows this requires asking inquisitive, but often hard, questions as well as listening to the answers to those questions.”
ESPN analyst Brian Dawkins, a former Farmer teammate, echoed Snead’s sentiments.
“Ray is not pig-headed,” he said. “He’s going to have a strong opinion, but he’s going to let the people around him do their jobs.”
Dawkins and Farmer have known each other since their days of playing in ACC for Clemson and Duke, respectively. What impresses the former Pro Bowl defensive back is how quickly Farmer processes information and puts it to use.
Some believe the Browns are placing Farmer in a difficult spot given the number of picks (10), the importance of the draft and the amount of time he has to prepare for it. Dawkins isn’t concerned about his friend’s readiness.
“I don’t think the moment is too big for him,” Dawkins said. “I know people have questions about him, but nobody works harder at what he does. He is a football nerd like he says. He’s put in the work and now he’s ready to spread his wings.”
Vers, I see what you are saying, but Farmer made it more than clear that Pettine would have significant input, along with the other coaches on what and who they need. I can't understand why you want to infer that he will do it all alone, when he stated specifically when asked that he would work with Pettine to see what he needs and who fits for what he needs.
I can't see how you don't see what a bad set up we had with Banner trumping everybody and him and Lombardi disagreeing, as reported in different articles, on personnel and coaching matters.
Most teams run on the structure we now have. You are smart enough to know that. I can't look at this as a reboot, as Farmer has been here, and was part of the coaching search, just not the interview process. The scouts are intact, and the only thing missing is the drama caused by Banner and Lombardi.
It is becoming clear to me that Banner is not liked around the NFL. He did not possess the acumen to run football operations, and clearly used Lombardi as a lackey. It is also very obvious that Chud's staff did not have say so on the roster. I don't know how anybody could conclude that they did. Norv's comments after he left opened my eyes. It was clear that Banner was trying to control everything, and that doesn't work.
GMs ARE the guys who control the roster, except in cases like Belicheck and a few others who control everything. I don't see Farmer being a guy who, not in your exact words, but forces his players on a coach. When a FO guy starts to demand players play, as Banner did apparently, that is overstepping his bounds.
GMs provide the players the coach needs, and coaches decide who plays. That is how it works best, and I believe that is what we will get. Will we be successful? Who knows. But most teams work this way, and I have to believe removing the negative aspects of the FO is a move in the right direction.
The continuity in the FO has changed some, but it also has been set up to be more efficient. I understand your thoughts, but I take it as you thinking Farmer is going to go it alone, and I don't see that.
Browns | Wanted Bill Parcells Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:21:03 -0800
The Cleveland Browns wanted Bill Parcells to run the team, according to a source. Parcells said he only talked to the team about why organizations succeed and fail.
The Cleveland Browns' front office mess already had some local ties -- ex-Eagles president Joe Banner got fired, along with New Jersey native Michael Lombardi -- but there's another wrinkle to the story that involves Greg Schiano.
The ex-Rutgers head coach, who was fired by the Buccaneers in December, interviewed with the Browns but didn't end up with the job.
MMQB's Peter King shed light on why that was the case: Patriots coach and Schiano pal Bill Belichick recommended Schiano (so strongly that he called twice) as did Ohio State's Urban Meyer. That piqued Browns owner Jimmy Haslam's interest...but not Banner's, as King wrote:
"Here's where I hear there was a major rift in the organization. Banner wanted nothing to do with Schiano. Haslam was intrigued with him after the over-the-top recommendation from Belichick. The group flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, and one source said Banner was cold to Schiano, not participating much in the interview. Banner likely thought Schiano would be a disastrous hire, given all the negatives in recent Cleveland history. He was probably right, but the owner was open to it, and when the owner's open to it, the man running football operations should at least consider it." Banner apparently didn't and now, like Schiano, he's out of a job.
Quote: It's not a stretch to believe Haslam began asking himself or others, why the Browns were being described as toxic or radioactive? Haslam either admitted to himself or some close friends, maybe Peyton Manning, gave it to Haslam straight...that Banner and Lombardi were casting a negative shadow over Haslam's franchise that was so bad that coaching candidates refused to work with them.
At some point between firing Chud and yesterday, the light bulb finally came on in Jimmy Haslam's head...he finally figured out that he had made a mistake of historic proportion, hiring Joe Banner to run the football side of the Browns.
I don't think that's a stretch at all, just wonder why he didn't fire the GM first then and let the new GM hire the coach... unless you are hypothesizing that during the interview process, Haslam was listening to Farmer as much or more than he was listening to Lombardi/Banner.. which is possible.
Finally....There Gone...Never Liked Banner or Limbardi.
We have a owner who's not afraid to get rid of dead weight,
I dont have a problem replacing people, I'd much rather replace a problem now rather than wait 2-3 years, hoping they get better or finally get it right, one can tell, Consistancy starts with the right people in place, we would never get consistancy in our Franchise with Banner & Limbardi here, to much back stabbing & wanting to be the big man instead of one of the players.
Ray Famer...Is the real deal, Soooo glad to have him, best hire of the year.
I feel much better about our future....Thanks Jimmy
Solid post and I understand your logic. E.Ryze19, I liked the logic of your post, too.
I will give these guys time to prove themselves. I won't stomp my feet. I won't say "he lied to me." LOL
I do have to say that I am now more concerned than before. A few thoughts:
--Banner got bashed for being arrogant, but I like having smart guys in charge. I think we lose something by losing his intellect.
--The guy was a cap guru. We will miss that.
--Most people on here slammed Schiano over and over. Ridiculed the FO for talking to him. Now, it comes out that Banner was opposed to this and that is what caused the rift between he and Haslam. Let's imagine if we didn't hear the specific names involved, but just heard that one guy didn't want anything to do w/Schiano and that led to problems between two of the participants. I bet that almost to a man, our posters would have sided w/not wanting anything to do w/Schiano. But, since it is Banner, most will either ignore it or excuse it away. Again.........hypocritical is the word that pops into my head.
--I respect your opinion in regards to who should control the roster, but it's been my experience that giving the GM control over the final 53 is counter productive. The coaching staff knows more than the GM about who is performing well in practices, scrimmages, games, etc. They break down way more film and are w/the players a lot more. It's not even close. But again, I respect your opinion.
--Final thought........I'm not angry, but this latest move has kind of drained me.
Quote: If we make the playoffs next season I'll shave my head!
I'll ask my wife first... but I'm willing to go to those lengths if the Browns make it. I'd even paint it orange with a with a white stripe down the middle and thinner brown lines on either side of it.
I don't think that we'll see a situation as reportedly happened last season where Chud and Norv wanted a true FB, (Like a Mike Tolbert or a Le'ron McClain) and Lombardi felt that the position was better filled by a guy like Obi. It's a relatively small item .... but both men have run their offenses with a bruiser FB. (we had Vickers when Chud was OC here in 2007) For the front office to overrule the coaching staff like that is unacceptable to me. I di not expect to see that kind of thing happen with Farmer here.
...and I'm the opposite (right or wrong). I was "drained" after Chud was released; I felt little hope. Now I'm more energized, optimistic, and a bit more bounce in my steps.
That's fine. At the same time, this latest move has been very revealing in terms of seeing exactly what motivates many of our posters.
It's very obvious that they were not basing their demonstrative bashing of the FO because they were being lied to, or about losing continuity, or concerns about being a national laughingstock. It was all about their personal dislike for two individuals.
Spite and hate rather than logic and reason. I think that has me more depressed than anything. It's going to be real hard to take those people seriously or even have any respect for them.
I like that we made changes ...... but we have made many changes before, and none have worked to this point .....
So, I will be guarded in my optimism ..... at least for a few days ........ and then I will talk myself into believing that we got a steal at GM, and that Mike Pettine will be the next great NFL head coach. I'll be really psyched by training camp, and I hope that they don't let me down ....... like damn near everyone else associated with the Cleveland Browns over the past 2 decades has.
I agree Vers we will miss Banner as far as controlling the cap but I have spoken to a guy that knew Scheiner (sp) from his Cowboy days and he told me that Alec is extremely intelligent and could handle the business side with acumen.
As far as Banner being smart, I will give you that, but I do not think that smart means arrogance... I know many smart people that are not arrogant.... do not see those as mutually inclusive traits.
The Schiano flap... color me as one that did not want Schiano, but i had no problem with their talking to him,I wanted them to talk to anyone they thought viable and leave no stone unturned
...I do know this, however, if my boss wanted to talk to someone I would do more than show indifference to that person, that to me shows arrogance without being very smart on Banners part.
I can see why you are drained and certainly there are many questions left unanswered, but I still view this as a very positive step, I have hope again.
As far as Banner, I too kind of liked him. Smart, in command, and somewhat demanding. But as time wore on, and now that some insight on went wrong has arisen, I started to think that Banner was overstepping his expertise. He was hired to do what he was doing, so he should not be bashed for that. But, IMO, he just was out of his comfort zone when it came to personnel.
I believe that he did very much for Haslam in laying the ground work on how to build a franchise. He also made some good moves in FA. The thing there, is how much Lombardi was involved. But I see it as sort of a personality conflict with him and most people, and I think Haslam realized it.
For him being a cap guru, that might be missed, but there are many people who can fill that job. I think Scheiner has the knowledge and the intelligence to handle it, but only time will tell.
If Banner was against Schaino, I'm with him. To me Schaino was Lombardi and Bellichek helping a friend.
As to the roster, I'll just say that listening to Farmer, I think he gets that. I got a feeling Pettine is going to have big input, and also Shanahan. But, like I said ...hope. Once again time will tell.
All in all, I genuinely feel these were good moves. Firing Chud wasn't. I get a feeling that Chud was fired so quickly, because Haslam was lead to believe a replacement was a sure thing.
Up front, I readily admit to a dislike of Banner, although I was OK with Lombardi. Although I tried, I could not bring myself to fully getting on board with those two. In a professional organization, they did not seem (to me) a good "fit". Contrast that with Haslem, who comes across as very polished, if you will. I felt the FO was dysfunctional (I used that term many months ago), and have never been comfortable with control freaks and micro-manager which Banner certainly was. I believe the new guys are set up so (if they are proven capable) they can succeed...
j/c....just some thoughts on what has been discussed on both old n new threads.
1. For the most parts its the GM who has the power but its that ability to wield that power with strong considerations of what the HC and staff wants and needs. You know that all elusive GM/HC working together or as ONE thingy.
2. Few go the other way around. BB and Reid were on the short list.
3. Banner had some strengths but I do think he lacks the Charisma as the Supreme leader of an organization. That flaw came back to haunt him. Of course I'm reading why Banner got fired but I thought is was Lombardi who got fired and Banner resigned??? or is that just symantics on who gets Unemployment checks?
4. Django...lol you won't be happy till you are named GM. Its like you look for dirt and think you know he sucked or something. Farmer is one of the brightest GM candidates around - the only one giving him a negative report is you. Everyone else who actually worked with him have nothing but praises for him.
5. I never do play the race card but there are few Black GMs and the majority of the football players are black - I think they will be proud to be playing for him and would help the rally around the Brown n Orange Flag
6. I think we had over kill - Banner's thing was the Business end but he didn't want to get involved with that but more so the day to day football stuff. Hands on owner stuff. We got this other kid Scheiner??? who is suppose to be very talented.
Same with Lombardi...not in deviating from his job prowess but over kill as Farmer was considered the Super star not Lombardi. Anything important to do with evaluating he was sent. So we got the great Business guy and the GM guy not as a hire but Continuity here.
So we have. The Business guy...still here and he was carrying the load as it was. The Personnel guy...still here and he was carrying the load as it was. Organization wise all we did in that regard was bring on Haslam to be the CEO type making the final decisions not Banner.
Of course in the midst of all this we got the Change on the field. That is what has effected the Continuity or stability with the players. Hopefully the new staff will be dynamic in that leadership to gain the trusts and 100% commitment from the players.
We look to be younger brighter organization without personal goals over the Team goal. Again I think this is a team of destiny the recent FO moves did not dampen this thought/wish of mine. Actually I think it brings its success closer.
Quote: 4. Django...lol you won't be happy till you are named GM. Its like you look for dirt and think you know he sucked or something. Farmer is one of the brightest GM candidates around - the only one giving him a negative report is you. Everyone else who actually worked with him have nothing but praises for him.
Wonder why you didn't tackle one of my concerns I came up with researching his bio and moves with the Chiefs?
No, I don't want him to fail. Actually I think he's very likeable and anyone would look good right now because the fanbase is just relieved that the other clowns are finally gone. That doesn't make him better though.
That said, if you look at WHAT he did and in WHAT capacity, then I can't see how anyone can give him a good report for the things he did and be excited about him at a new position to boot. The Chiefs started turning the corner when he was gone. They signed FAs that actually contributed. He gave Routt 11mil in 2012 and they had to cut the dude after the season because he was so bad and is still a FA to this day. This signing alone makes me cringe, but the FACT that he was never involved in College scouting concerns me even more
DJ sorry I just don't have the time to get into some detailed logic nor investigate was you say is true or false.
What I find interesting is that it was Farmer who signed the Bad guy and waste of money but it was Farmer who had nothing to do with the good things that happened in their personnel department. That is pretty much it in a quick synopsis - I like what you say most of the time. I don't take you that serious when you got to extremes cause most of it isn't from sight...actually it is somebody as thorough as you I would love to team up with and investigate or evaluate things together.
Hope that is taken as a compliment and not an insult.
I went to espn and looked at every FA aquisition from 2006 and 2012 when he was the ProPersonnel Chief....it simply was not good. I'm sorry, but I didn't see one single move that turned out good and a handful of bad one's and lots of "mehs" at best.
Their record in those years was 38-74 and they drafted in the top 10 a lot. Those are the facts I could come up with, so don't shoot the messenger.
Imho there are no moves you can attach to Farmer and say something good about. He may be a smart guy and an "up and comer", but similar things have been said about others before, so to me that's just PR talk.
I hope he and Pettine succeed, but I'm not too excited looking at this duo. Both are new to their job and have a so-so at best resumee.
Quote: That's fine. At the same time, this latest move has been very revealing in terms of seeing exactly what motivates many of our posters.
It's very obvious that they were not basing their demonstrative bashing of the FO because they were being lied to, or about losing continuity, or concerns about being a national laughingstock. It was all about their personal dislike for two individuals.
Spite and hate rather than logic and reason. I think that has me more depressed than anything. It's going to be real hard to take those people seriously or even have any respect for them.
Maybe if you could ever come to the realization that it was mistrust of the people in charge to do the job and not hate, that would make more sense to you.
I could never hate someone I've had zero interaction with. I can however question their ability to do what they were hired to do and hate the fact they were hired for that job.
Big difference. I have zero dislike for Lombardi or Banner in our FO jobs now that they're not here.
Good post. We may disagree, but you present a logical argument.
I'm still kind of numb. Still processing things.
I keep thinking about the continuity thing. I have always believed in continuity. I'm not going to cry because Haslam lied to me, but I do believe in it. In my mind, I tried justifying the early firing of Chud by thinking that perhaps there was much more behind the scenes that we did not know and combine that w/the fact that the team regressed over the course of the year, I could at least accept the firing, even if I didn't agree w/it.
But now, Haslam fires two more main players. I don't know, man.......
I realize most hated those two guys so they won't delve into the "why" of it, but man, if King's story is true about Schiano and Haslam is that much of a dictator......and then you add in the facts that Banner, Lombardi, and Chud have been fired in such a short time.......
Quote: --Banner got bashed for being arrogant, but I like having smart guys in charge. I think we lose something by losing his intellect.
--The guy was a cap guru. We will miss that.
I agree wholeheartedly with both of those statements. I will miss those things about him. He's a shrewd dude who did some unorthodox things that paid off like taking the 1st round for TRich and trading up a whole round from both a 4th and a 5th. There was more.
I just always felt he was being a bit arrogant regarding his knowledge of on the field football matters and coaching responsibilities. In his element I don't think there's anyone's better. I just always felt he was overstepping his bounds here.
Quote: --Most people on here slammed Schiano over and over. Ridiculed the FO for talking to him... I bet that almost to a man, our posters would have sided w/not wanting anything to do w/Schiano.
I agree with your assessment on that topic as well. So much in fact that I'd likely been one of those hypocritical posters you mentioned. I am glad he's not here. All the ugly things I've read about him in TB freaked me out.
Quote: --Final thought........I'm not angry, but this latest move has kind of drained me.
Exactly where I was when we fired Chud. Angry only at the dysfunctional manner I saw coming from the top. At least with this move it had more of a clarifying substance to it.
And I don't think this is the end of it because if we don't bet A LOT better over the next two years I can see a house cleaning coming again. It may only be the coaching staff or it could be Farmer too. But this time around Haslem settled for "the best available" HC and a rookie GM. I don't see this being the 10 year continuity thing we hope for unless we get real good, real fast and sustain that with these guys.
It is hard to tell to what extent Banner was responsible for the T Rich trade.
But from the sound of it he was responsible for us not hiring Schiano.
For that I owe him a debt of gratitude and I sincerely worry about Haslam's ability to judge people. If Banner had much to do with the T Rich trade I am very thankful for that as well.
Chud was the hometown hero and OC for the only successful offense we had seen since 99. Banner was thought of as shrewd and possibly unlikeable due to his mistreatment of aging players. He brought Lombardi along who was nearly universally reviled by all the fans in Cleveland.
It isn't surprising people sided with Chud. Not in the least.
I am pretty concerned about Haslam being interested in guys with massive ego / disrespect problems like Schiano (and Parcells). I hope Pettine isn't that kind of guy, and if he isn't I hope we keep him around.
I understand why people sided w/Chud. No problem there. I just think many lied about their real intent, because they are singing a completely different tune now.......and their prior reasons for all the angst, bitterness, and ridicule would fit w/these latest moves, too.
I actually have gained more respect for Jules and a couple of others.......who have been consistently negative about both of these moves.
Quote: Good post. We may disagree, but you present a logical argument.
I'm still kind of numb. Still processing things.
I keep thinking about the continuity thing. I have always believed in continuity. I'm not going to cry because Haslam lied to me, but I do believe in it. In my mind, I tried justifying the early firing of Chud by thinking that perhaps there was much more behind the scenes that we did not know and combine that w/the fact that the team regressed over the course of the year, I could at least accept the firing, even if I didn't agree w/it.
But now, Haslam fires two more main players. I don't know, man.......
I realize most hated those two guys so they won't delve into the "why" of it, but man, if King's story is true about Schiano and Haslam is that much of a dictator......and then you add in the facts that Banner, Lombardi, and Chud have been fired in such a short time.......
Again, I just don't know.....
This is going to sound awfully weird coming from me, but at this point, I'd like to buy you a beer and tell you that everything will be alright..
Farmer is qualified to be a GM. Many around the league are saying so and they are the guys that would know.
Pettine seems like a smart guy that knows football from the ground up and Schiener seems like a solid business man.
Having said that, it appears that Haslam has surrounded himself with guys that are good solid people.
I know that's not all there is to it, but it's a damn fine start.
Quote: It is hard to tell to what extent Banner was responsible for the T Rich trade.
But from the sound of it he was responsible for us not hiring Schiano.
Its hard to tell, but i'm maybe thinking Haslam related, at least at that time, more to the college game than the pro game. Schiano was a winning college coach, but you cant treat pros like college players. Most times they wont play for a guy like that.
The Browns have $45.5 million in cap to spend in the new league year, and two first-round picks after fleecing the Colts in the Trent Richardson trade. There’s a lot of talent on defense, and a few real playmakers on the offensive side of things. In other words, everything needed to build a real NFL powerhouse. Unfortunately, a front office that deserves a far lower rating than the one we were able to give it (heck with it; we’re throwing the lowest grade possible at this mess) will almost unquestionably squander these great gifts. Because when your team owner is under federal investigation, and your organization has changed team presidents, general managers and head coaches at a dizzying rate, it’s hard to take anything you do seriously.
Of course, they could've just as easily said that we are better off now with a (seemingly) more unified FO.
I'd be willing to bet that this writer wrote an article in the last couple weeks slamming Banner for the stuff we've been talking about on here. These writers need a jester, and we are it right now.
Quote: I understand why people sided w/Chud. No problem there. I just think many lied about their real intent, because they are singing a completely different tune now.......and their prior reasons for all the angst, bitterness, and ridicule would fit w/these latest moves, too.
You have some guts to blame posters for flip flopping and being inconsistent after your Fred Astaire act on Norv Turner. I (and others I guess) actually was playing nice not to call you out on now backing the two worst FO's ever to set foot in Berea, which takes some ex-scout talent to filter out I guess, lol...but to hell with it, since you're still attacking posters and throwing dirt around, probably blinded by the egg on your face right now. Nobody cares, that's why nobody called you out on it...well, I guess I did on both accounts now, lol. That's a backhanded compliment, if you've noticed...talk football !
Anyway, I think most who hated the Chud firing actually said that he was scapegoated and that LomBanner should have been held accountable too. Nobody, not even me, wanted anyone to get fired, but when they fired Chud, LomBanner should have been booted too. That's what I said and wanted to see for sure and I remember many other's saying the same.
Quote: Anyway, I think most who hated the Chud firing actually said that he was scapegoated and that LomBanner should have been held accountable too. Nobody, not even me, wanted anyone to get fired, but when they fired Chud, LomBanner should have been booted too. That's what I said and wanted to see for sure and I remember many other's saying the same.
Exactly.
Of course according to some, it was all the players fault.......
Until Chud was fired. Then it suddenly became Chud's fault.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Quote: It's hard to argue what's said in that article.
Of course, they could've just as easily said that we are better off now with a (seemingly) more unified FO.
I'd be willing to bet that this writer wrote an article in the last couple weeks slamming Banner for the stuff we've been talking about on here. These writers need a jester, and we are it right now.
The Browns have $45.5 million in cap to spend in the new league year, and two first-round picks after fleecing the Colts in the Trent Richardson trade. There’s a lot of talent on defense, and a few real playmakers on the offensive side of things. In other words, everything needed to build a real NFL powerhouse. Unfortunately, a front office that deserves a far lower rating than the one we were able to give it (heck with it; we’re throwing the lowest grade possible at this mess) will almost unquestionably squander these great gifts. Because when your team owner is under federal investigation, and your organization has changed team presidents, general managers and head coaches at a dizzying rate, it’s hard to take anything you do seriously.
I can't take this evaluation seriously, especially when the writer automatically says the FO will botch the draft. Do these idiots have any clue that Farmer was part of the team all along?
I mean what gives them the right to judge what will be done? All the scouts and Farmer are still in place. They were the same ones that would be here if Banner and Lombardi were still here. So to assume just because they are gone it is for sure that the draft will be bad is just plain terrile journalism.
This is why I don't pay attention to these rankings. These guys write stuff like this to look smart, but IMO it makes them look like unprofessional idiots.
No one knows what the draft would have been like with those two still here, but I would bet that most of the draft boards are already made, and they were part of that process. They would have used the same info Farmer will, and the same team, except for the highly regarded guy they hired from KC to help.
Judging, or in this case demeaning a draft before it has happened is unprofessional, and wreaks of what is wrong with sports reporters these days. IMO the writer is a fool, and anyone who can take his rankings seriously are also.
He gives the GM a score of -5, and the guy hasn't even moved into his office yet. As Eo would say...BOZO.
He didn't even know that Scheiner has been the president since last year, Banner was the CEO.......Bozo.
As much as I dislike Banner's presence if he did get us away from Schiano then he's a great man and deserves a key to the city.
semi-jokes aside, a lot of these articles are throwing some mad shame and I'm just wondering if it's because of Lombardi's relationship with the media members.
Quote: semi-jokes aside, a lot of these articles are throwing some mad shame and I'm just wondering if it's because of Lombardi's relationship with the media members.
While some close to the subject view these moves as a good thing, from afar it looks like a mess with no direction.
The Browns have $45.5 million in cap to spend in the new league year, and two first-round picks after fleecing the Colts in the Trent Richardson trade. There’s a lot of talent on defense, and a few real playmakers on the offensive side of things. In other words, everything needed to build a real NFL powerhouse. Unfortunately, a front office that deserves a far lower rating than the one we were able to give it (heck with it; we’re throwing the lowest grade possible at this mess) will almost unquestionably squander these great gifts. Because when your team owner is under federal investigation, and your organization has changed team presidents, general managers and head coaches at a dizzying rate, it’s hard to take anything you do seriously.
I'd be a whole lot of worried if Farmer and the Scouting/personel people weren't here for a year. If it was an All new crew, I'd think trouble was ahead.
There is NO reason to fear Farmer. None that I can see.
Quote: semi-jokes aside, a lot of these articles are throwing some mad shame and I'm just wondering if it's because of Lombardi's relationship with the media members.
While some close to the subject view these moves as a good thing, from afar it looks like a mess with no direction.
Wait until Lombardi makes the rounds. We are going to get hammered and not in the good way
Quote: semi-jokes aside, a lot of these articles are throwing some mad shame and I'm just wondering if it's because of Lombardi's relationship with the media members.
While some close to the subject view these moves as a good thing, from afar it looks like a mess with no direction.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I like the moves.. I'm glad they made them. I think it's a positive.
Quote: It's very obvious that they were not basing their demonstrative bashing of the FO because they were being lied to, or about losing continuity, or concerns about being a national laughingstock. It was all about their personal dislike for two individuals.
Spite and hate rather than logic and reason. I think that has me more depressed than anything. It's going to be real hard to take those people seriously or even have any respect for them.
I never liked Lombardi on any level. I thought he was a backstabbing ass that would prove to be a cancer in any environment. Many agreed with that and whether you want to admit it or not, he is the big reason we lost Chud, Norv, Horton and Banner.
I was not a fan of banner but I liked most of the decisions he made here and feel we are worse off without him being around. His downside was that he put Lombardi on a pedistal. He did a great job of reinventing the direction of the Browns, but he should have had the balls to say, its stupid to fire a coach after one season.
he did not do that and helped his bubby Lombardi in a power move to get rid of Chud and bring in his boy Josh McDaniels. BTW I think its ludicrous that McDaniels took his name out of the hat because of dysfunction. He was Lombardi's chosen one and everyone knew it and I think he felt he would be handed the reigns as soon as Chud was escorted out of the building.
When that didnt happen he took his name out. They could have had McDAniels anytime they wanted him.
The Schiano thing is bizarre. I thought Schiano was a good coach and had the Bucs playing some pretty good football. Inexperience was their downfall much like what the Browns has been going through. Inexperience and confidence.
Anyway, I dont know much about Farmer other than he sounds smart and he has no real victories as a personnel man. pettine does come across as a Parcells, Jimmy Johnson type and that has me intrigued but we will see. The fact that everyone is saying Mariotta was the top QB on Farmer's list however scares the crap out of me and makes me think we may go after Bortles who I think is a mid 2nd rounder at best.
I've been wondering about this for awhile and I will finally share it. I was watching Banner in the PC where Chud was fired and he did not look like his normal self. He was clearly uncomfortable and looked very unhappy----------even for him--------LOL
I have been wondering if firing Chud was Haslam's move and Banner did not approve of that move. It could have been the beginning of the end.
Then, when Banner opposed Haslam in regards to Schiano, Haslam's ego just couldn't take it.
Sorry...........the more I think about this, and I have been thinking about it quite a bit, I don't see how we are better off w/out Banner.
The Cleveland Browns interviewed Ken Whisenhunt for their head-coaching job in each of the past two Januaries, first after he was fired as Arizona’s head coach, and last month when he was employed as San Diego’s offensive coordinator. When Whisenhunt entered the room this year for the interview, he was one of the hottest commodities on the head-coaching market, and the Browns were very interested in him.
Whisenhunt said, “Why didn’t you guys hire me last year?’’
The Browns’ CEO who was in both interviews, Joe Banner, told Whisenhunt he didn’t think the staff he was putting together at the time was “a championship coaching staff.”
Whisenhunt, one NFL source said, was peeved that a man who had never coached and who’d been involved in football mainly on the business side would sit in judgment of his potential coaches.
“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice
It shows the arrogance and stuff that was going on in those interviews and that others were turned off..it's not the only stuff that was going on.
You keep acting like you have inside information. Wanna clarify that? I don't really consider Insider information from journalists all that legit. You might want to add "possibly," or "rumor has it," to your declarations. Unless, of course, you know someone who has had access to all those meetings.
(edited to add the quote so it was clear what I was responding to)
Quote: Nice post.
I've been wondering about this for awhile and I will finally share it. I was watching Banner in the PC where Chud was fired and he did not look like his normal self. He was clearly uncomfortable and looked very unhappy----------even for him--------LOL
I have been wondering if firing Chud was Haslam's move and Banner did not approve of that move. It could have been the beginning of the end.
Then, when Banner opposed Haslam in regards to Schiano, Haslam's ego just couldn't take it.
Sorry...........the more I think about this, and I have been thinking about it quite a bit, I don't see how we are better off w/out Banner.
I think you are onto something there. In fact, the transcripts of press conferences are mostly worthless. You're just going to get the unified, politically correct version meant for the public the overwhelming majority of the time. Often times though, you can get a sense of what they are really thinking by how they react and how they sound. Most of these guys do not have a good poker face by any stretch of the imagination (Belichick does, he is one coach you really can't tell if he's being honest or totally BSing you.)
Anyway, I got the same sense at the time. It's just one of those things that doesn't really fit well on a football message board.
Yeah, I typically hate speculating like that w/out any other information at hand, but I was astounded at how unhappy he looked during that PC, and that was before he even faced the tough questions.
Quote: You keep acting like you have inside information. Wanna clarify that? I don't really consider Insider information from journalists all that legit. You might want to add "possibly," or "rumor has it," to your declarations. Unless, of course, you know someone who has had access to all those meetings.
Lets establish something right now,because I knew sooner or later, you'd find your way to challenge something.. I post things like I always have. if U have a issue with it, that is your problem not mine. I don't have to add or subtract anything I don't want to , to appease anyone . There are those who get where I'm coming from. U act like U want to control how people post and what they can say and how they RESPOND. In the words of Wolverine..' I go where I want to go and say what I want to say"...
I am not trying to control you. I am simply wondering how you can speak w/such conviction. It's like you were actually in the meetings w/Haslam, Banner, Lombardi, etc. I find that hard to believe.
Vers U seem to come across disgruntled a lot, and that's not good.. I am sarcastic, U know that but I rarely see U post without confrontation with someone. Lighten up, or I am going to start calling U the Most Disgruntled Man in the World..stay thirsty my friend..:brownie Actually I do have information from insiders , however I have to be careful how I post it..so I try to word it in a manner that some know it's not me actually speaking. Since I am not on here like I used to be I told some I would share anything I can to give U guys a inside view on the team. :
Quote: Peyton Manning could be Cleveland’s best hope Posted by Mike Florio on February 11, 2014, 1:15 PM EST peyton_ap_img AP
Sure, the Browns could use a quarterback like Peyton Manning. Over the long haul, they’d be better off with an executive like Peyton Manning.
With Jimmy Haslam restructuring the front office to remove the buffer between owner and G.M., a spot has now been created for Manning, if he chooses to follow the John Elway path after Manning’s football career ends and become the buffer between Haslam and G.M. Ray Farmer.
While Manning will be a star if he chooses to do TV, no network will pay as much as Haslam would to resurrect the Browns, if/when (when) the team is still struggling after Manning’s playing career ends.
Manning and Haslam have been linked for years, dating back to Peyton’s time at the University of Tennessee, where Haslam is a major booster. For years, the theory had been that Haslam would buy the Titans and hire Peyton to run the team. Haslam still has a team; he now simply needs someone to run it the way it needs to be run. By someone with the skills to run it. With Haslam taking his unqualified hands off the wheel.
Peyton has the track record, the work ethic, and the gravitas to succeed as an NFL executive, and to persuade the latest meddling NFL owner to stop meddling. Peyton’s involvement also would go a long way toward making the Browns under Haslam look like something other than a clown show.
Ok Goldhammer tell us what really happened with Kokinis since you have inside information. LOL I remember a while back we had a guy named CoachB who claimed to have inside information, and he was found to be a phoney. If you truely do have inside scoop thats great, but just know saying you do doesnt give you some kind of status here on the boards. For all you know I could be Munch. I mean if I claim to be I have to be him right?
and would you two stop the slap-fest and discuss the topic at hand. or take your flame war to PM's. I was looking to see the newest on our FO Changes and instead I walked into another pissing contest.
Yeah really.. And the post I esponded to was not inside information. That was a article but it coincides with what was going on.What I spoke about Banner/Lombardi was inside stuff .
I'd say I'm THRILLED with this recent embarrassment (and just because I like it and believe it is the right move ... it doesn't mean its not embarrassing) but the lead DA is still around .. are u kidding me with all the excuses folks are throwing around for this guy ....
Banner was "thrust" on him ... *LOL* ... in what world did that happen???? .. has anyone seen the lead DA in action ... NO ONE THRUSTS ANYTHNG ON THAT MAN .... are u kidding me???? ...
PLUS .. how does the TIMELINE WORK ON THAT ONE ... he bought the team in early August ... he hired banner Mid Oct. ... lets see ... that leaves august, sept and half of oct for him to INTERVIEW and find people .... so how was him and banner a MARRIAGE made at nfl headquarters ....
I gotta go .. will be back to blow up more myths and BS being spread about this a-hole we have leading us ...
EVEN THOUGH I LIKE WHAT HE JUST DID I AM STILL BUMMED WE HAVE THIS IDIOT LEADING THINGS .... IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ...... cause based on what we've seen so far only a blind person would have any faith in this guy ...
u know ... I've seen a few say there a lot more positive than they were before the two minion DA's were let go .... I knew I felt better but not positive ... the best way to describe my sentiments ..
I'm less pessimistic that we'll f this off season up as far as personal moves go .. and lets face it .. THIS IS HUGE ... we have a chance to REALLY IMPROVE and be a LEGITE CONTENDER soon with the right moves ...
I have no clue how good farmer and co will be ... but I was POSITIVE we would fail with the DA's leading the talent acquisition this off season ...
Quote: He was going to take a qb at four. Now, I am not so sure.
Do you have insider information to state that as a fact? Maybe you should have qualified that by saying "I believe he would" or "I feel strongly he would"?
And who would have been left? Who was he targeting at QB? I'm dying to know the info you have.
No, I have no inside information. Only logic and reason.
Banner, like I did, knew that Weeden sucked eggs. He made several moves to ensure that we were in a good position to secure a qb in this upcoming draft, where there were several potential candidates.
I know you are just being an ass, but at least I answered you. Have a nice day.
Quote: I feel much better about our future....Thanks Jimmy
Same here. Im very happy to see Banner and Lombardi gone.. Pettine and Farmer have the opportunity of their lives before them now. 6 PBers, 10 draft picks, alotta cap room and even the possibility of a returning QB. From utter misery at the end of the season, to having hope again.
And btw Mouth...............how about we pull up the threads about Weeden that occurred before the season and see exactly who said what.
I've let a lot of that stuff slide, but I took a tremendous amount of grief for stating that Norv would not make a HUGE difference in how Weeden performed. Keep running your big mouth and I will actually take the time and re-post all those conversations.
Go ahead, I've got nothing to hide when it comes to Weeden. While you're at it, post all the threads where you mocked and bullied everyone who said Lombardi and Banner were egotistical duds who should have never been hired. Those would be fun to go back and look at!
Quote: Go ahead, I've got nothing to hide when it comes to Weeden. While you're at it, post all the threads where you mocked and bullied everyone who said Lombardi and Banner were egotistical duds who should have never been hired. Those would be fun to go back and look at!
It is funny to see how people's moods have shifted. Some people who supported Banner and Lombardi are now highly skeptical of Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Also, some people who didn't like Banner and Lombardi are now very excited about Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Then there are the people who just didn't like Banner and Lombardi and would take anyone over them. And there are the people who liked Banner and Lombardi and whoever was hired they were going to talk themselves out of it.
There are also the outliers who just are always in defensive attack mode about anything that is happening.
Quote: Go ahead, I've got nothing to hide when it comes to Weeden. While you're at it, post all the threads where you mocked and bullied everyone who said Lombardi and Banner were egotistical duds who should have never been hired. Those would be fun to go back and look at!
I Posted videos) here is what I said about Weeden:
not much out of those videos make me go... WOW! that guy is a first round qb that can take the Browns to the SuperBowl.
watch the last video
He isn't as accurate as people think. He was just lucky to have a great WR to bail him out. He overthrows/under a lot and didn't have that great of ball placement. He forces way too many passes, he makes some really really less than intelligent plays. If people complained about colt under throwing... they will have a field day with Weeden. He also leaves his WR's out to dry.
He reminds me a lot of DA-- strong arm that has limited control and sprays footballs all over the field in a 2 step drop in the shotgun.
further down I wrote:
"oh and he might be the only QB in the NFL to get a safety by stepping out the back of the endzone and at the same time throwing a pick 6 to a wide open defender with no teammates around.."
I was close... it was a triple pump rainbow flip toss pick 6 to a wide open defender without a defender around
Another article that does not paint Banner in a good light:
Quote: Jimmy Haslam’s remake (i.e. streamlining) of the Cleveland Browns front office was a major bombshell.
But according to league sources familiar with the way things went with the Browns in 2013, the decision was a culmination of Haslam, the Browns' owner, coming to grips with several factors, primarily that the structure CEO Joe Banner convinced him to build was not working.
Whether that was because of the personality of the people involved or because of the structure itself is a matter of opinion.
Haslam spoke highly of Banner even as he was announcing his departure.
“It’s been a pleasure to work with him,” Haslam said. He then called former general manager Mike Lombardi a great friend who has “great football acumen.” Haslam added that he and Banner had been discussing this streamlining for two weeks. It would be tough to find a higher road for the owner, which is admirable.
The sources said the change in the team’s structure with both coach Mike Pettine and new GM Ray Farmer reporting directly to Haslam is a fallout from the former system, which had everyone providing information to Banner.
The owner prefers more direct channels.
The sources also addressed several reports of what happened with the Browns last season:
• One source said Lombardi favored trading Josh Gordon. On the day Gordon was selected in the second round of the supplemental draft in 2012, Lombardi -- then an analyst with NFL.com -- criticized the selection. Former coach Rob Chudzinski, aware his receiving corps would have been left with Greg Little and Davone Bess and who knows, worked hard to keep Gordon. Eventually, Banner did not like the offers he received. Gordon went on to lead the league in receiving yards. He averaged 97 yards per game before the trade deadline in late October, 133 after.
Lombardi would not comment on his position on Gordon, and declined comment on other matters related to the team and season. Chudzinski now works for the Indianapolis Colts, who make their assistants available only at certain times of the year. Now is not one of those times.
• Banner did not ask Chudzinski to cut Little and guard Shawn Lauvao. However, Banner’s personnel moves did leave Chudzinski and offensive coordinator Norv Turner frustrated. Bess was brought in by Lombardi to be the dependable third-down guy. He was anything but. At one point the Browns had Bess starting ahead of Little, an indicator of the coaches’ frustration and “what are we supposed to do” thinking. There was ongoing frustration about the running back position. Farmer was asked Tuesday if Banner was a good judge of football talent, and he thought a moment before answering: “I could tell you that Joe is a football guy. He would classify himself as a non-traditional football guy, and I would say that is a good representation.”
• The only time the team seriously discussed acquiring a back after the Trent Richardson trade was when the possibility of trading Gordon was discussed. When Richardson was traded, there was no other immediate plan to acquire a back.
• Banner tried to exert control over much -- from personnel to offensive system, which galled the former coaching staff given the experience of Turner.
• The coaching staff considered the draft a near waste. Barkevious Mingo at the sixth pick was a situational pass-rusher, and Leon McFadden was drafted two rounds earlier than the team’s scouts projected. The team also traded two picks in 2013 for picks in 2014. Those picks will benefit the new coaching staff at the expense of the old. “Ridiculous,” said one NFL coach.
• The mesh between the scouts held over from former GM Tom Heckert to Lombardi was difficult. No scouts were in the Browns' draft room during the ‘13 draft. Many transitions with a front office and scouts are tough; this one seemed tougher.
• The free agents and acquisitions were much touted, but league insiders point out that only Paul Kruger started with his former team. Quentin Groves, Desmond Bryant and Dion Lewis were backups. Quarterback Brian Hoyer played well and earned the respect of everyone, but there were very few coaches in the league who saw him as a starter when the Browns acquired him.
• In the news conference after Chudzinski was fired, Banner called Groves, Bryant and Lewis “excellent additions.” Haslam sat to Banner’s left as he spoke. All six of the team’s Pro Bowlers, though, were brought in by either Heckert, Eric Mangini or Phil Savage.
• Haslam gained much of his insight on the team from Banner, who was the voice between Lombardi, the coaches and Haslam.
• There is a belief that Haslam’s eyes were opened to how his team was viewed around the league as the 25-day coaching search took place. In talking with people from other teams, Haslam learned firsthand of the reluctance of some coaches to work in the Browns' old structure, and of the difficulty in dealing with the Browns in terms of trades. Peter King wrote on SI.com that the first question Ken Whisenhunt asked when the Browns interviewed him this year was why he was not hired a year ago. Banner told Whisenhunt he did not believe Whisenhunt was putting together a championship staff. “Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship staff?” Whisenhunt snapped.
• It may have meant something or nothing, but one of the last things Haslam said Tuesday was: “I think we got the best coach we could get.”
Piece everything together and it’s evident why Haslam preferred a more streamlined operation.
He wants people working together, reporting to him, with no filter between the voices.
The structure seems almost as clear as the reasons that prompted it.
Quote: EVEN THOUGH I LIKE WHAT HE JUST DID I AM STILL BUMMED WE HAVE THIS IDIOT LEADING THINGS .... IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ...... cause based on what we've seen so far only a blind person would have any faith in this guy ...
Color me "Blind".
Really?
This dude, after one lousy year as an Owner, just showed the NADS and took the SLEDGEHAMMER to 2 of the biggest buffoons to ever grace an NFL Front Office.
You bet your ass I've got faith in Haslam.
He saw exactly what was going on here and he took action.
We now have Scouts, a HC and a GM who will WORK TOGETHER and not have this BS Consensus thing that Banner blew up our asses. And MOST of it has come from WITHIN the organization. We never even knew what the Hell Lombardi's job description was. They shielded that chump from ever even addressing the team with the media. REALLY?
Blame that on Haslam if you want, but the blame lays squarely on BANNER.
COME BACK. I can't wait to hear your rhetoric slamming of the Owner of this team.
Quote: It is funny to see how people's moods have shifted. Some people who supported Banner and Lombardi are now highly skeptical of Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Also, some people who didn't like Banner and Lombardi are now very excited about Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Then there are the people who just didn't like Banner and Lombardi and would take anyone over them. And there are the peo£le who liked Banner and Lombardi and whoever was hired they were going to talk themselves out of it.
There are also the outliers who just are always in defensive attack mode about anything that is happening.
You left me out. I was Happy when we hired him, and pissed when I thought we might lose him, and thrilled when we promoted him. I was a Farmer fan when everybody else was saying Ray who?
Quote: EVEN THOUGH I LIKE WHAT HE JUST DID I AM STILL BUMMED WE HAVE THIS IDIOT LEADING THINGS .... IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ...... cause based on what we've seen so far only a blind person would have any faith in this guy ...
I agree with this statement. The problem for Haslem is he didn't hire adequate "football" people in the first place.
I'm not thinking hiring Ray Farmer is the cure, he still has to prove himself, but I feel much better regarding the football "vision" moving forward.
Quote: Another article that does not paint Banner in a good light:
Quote: Jimmy Haslam’s remake (i.e. streamlining) of the Cleveland Browns front office was a major bombshell.
But according to league sources familiar with the way things went with the Browns in 2013, the decision was a culmination of Haslam, the Browns' owner, coming to grips with several factors, primarily that the structure CEO Joe Banner convinced him to build was not working.
Whether that was because of the personality of the people involved or because of the structure itself is a matter of opinion.
Haslam spoke highly of Banner even as he was announcing his departure.
“It’s been a pleasure to work with him,” Haslam said. He then called former general manager Mike Lombardi a great friend who has “great football acumen.” Haslam added that he and Banner had been discussing this streamlining for two weeks. It would be tough to find a higher road for the owner, which is admirable.
The sources said the change in the team’s structure with both coach Mike Pettine and new GM Ray Farmer reporting directly to Haslam is a fallout from the former system, which had everyone providing information to Banner.
The owner prefers more direct channels.
The sources also addressed several reports of what happened with the Browns last season:
• One source said Lombardi favored trading Josh Gordon. On the day Gordon was selected in the second round of the supplemental draft in 2012, Lombardi -- then an analyst with NFL.com -- criticized the selection. Former coach Rob Chudzinski, aware his receiving corps would have been left with Greg Little and Davone Bess and who knows, worked hard to keep Gordon. Eventually, Banner did not like the offers he received. Gordon went on to lead the league in receiving yards. He averaged 97 yards per game before the trade deadline in late October, 133 after.
Lombardi would not comment on his position on Gordon, and declined comment on other matters related to the team and season. Chudzinski now works for the Indianapolis Colts, who make their assistants available only at certain times of the year. Now is not one of those times.
• Banner did not ask Chudzinski to cut Little and guard Shawn Lauvao. However, Banner’s personnel moves did leave Chudzinski and offensive coordinator Norv Turner frustrated. Bess was brought in by Lombardi to be the dependable third-down guy. He was anything but. At one point the Browns had Bess starting ahead of Little, an indicator of the coaches’ frustration and “what are we supposed to do” thinking. There was ongoing frustration about the running back position. Farmer was asked Tuesday if Banner was a good judge of football talent, and he thought a moment before answering: “I could tell you that Joe is a football guy. He would classify himself as a non-traditional football guy, and I would say that is a good representation.”
• The only time the team seriously discussed acquiring a back after the Trent Richardson trade was when the possibility of trading Gordon was discussed. When Richardson was traded, there was no other immediate plan to acquire a back.
• Banner tried to exert control over much -- from personnel to offensive system, which galled the former coaching staff given the experience of Turner.
• The coaching staff considered the draft a near waste. Barkevious Mingo at the sixth pick was a situational pass-rusher, and Leon McFadden was drafted two rounds earlier than the team’s scouts projected. The team also traded two picks in 2013 for picks in 2014. Those picks will benefit the new coaching staff at the expense of the old. “Ridiculous,” said one NFL coach.
• The mesh between the scouts held over from former GM Tom Heckert to Lombardi was difficult. No scouts were in the Browns' draft room during the ‘13 draft. Many transitions with a front office and scouts are tough; this one seemed tougher.
• The free agents and acquisitions were much touted, but league insiders point out that only Paul Kruger started with his former team. Quentin Groves, Desmond Bryant and Dion Lewis were backups. Quarterback Brian Hoyer played well and earned the respect of everyone, but there were very few coaches in the league who saw him as a starter when the Browns acquired him.
• In the news conference after Chudzinski was fired, Banner called Groves, Bryant and Lewis “excellent additions.” Haslam sat to Banner’s left as he spoke. All six of the team’s Pro Bowlers, though, were brought in by either Heckert, Eric Mangini or Phil Savage.
• Haslam gained much of his insight on the team from Banner, who was the voice between Lombardi, the coaches and Haslam.
• There is a belief that Haslam’s eyes were opened to how his team was viewed around the league as the 25-day coaching search took place. In talking with people from other teams, Haslam learned firsthand of the reluctance of some coaches to work in the Browns' old structure, and of the difficulty in dealing with the Browns in terms of trades. Peter King wrote on SI.com that the first question Ken Whisenhunt asked when the Browns interviewed him this year was why he was not hired a year ago. Banner told Whisenhunt he did not believe Whisenhunt was putting together a championship staff. “Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship staff?” Whisenhunt snapped.
• It may have meant something or nothing, but one of the last things Haslam said Tuesday was: “I think we got the best coach we could get.”
Piece everything together and it’s evident why Haslam preferred a more streamlined operation.
He wants people working together, reporting to him, with no filter between the voices.
The structure seems almost as clear as the reasons that prompted it.
Some of this may or may not be exactly true but the way the season went I think most of it is more likely to have happened.
So basically this article is suggesting the 2013 was a giant cluster_____.
The main thing MANY on this board was concerned about was Banner's desire to control EVERYTHING football. As the days go by and more information is coming out, this is showing to be the case. It's too bad because I thought he was a more than decent business man. Too bad for him he wanted all that control and too bad for him he hired a President (Sheiner) Haslem think is more than competent to move forward with.....
Quote: It is funny to see how people's moods have shifted. Some people who supported Banner and Lombardi are now highly skeptical of Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Also, some people who didn't like Banner and Lombardi are now very excited about Farmer -- who was hired by Banner and Lombardi.
Then there are the people who just didn't like Banner and Lombardi and would take anyone over them. And there are the people who liked Banner and Lombardi and whoever was hired they were going to talk themselves out of it.
There are also the outliers who just are always in defensive attack mode about anything that is happening.
LOL, well put.
The problem as I see it is that so many want to couch their opinion of one regine based on the actions of another and the there is no cause / effect relationship.
IE - Banner did all these thig right therefore Farmer will probably not be as good.
or Banner was an egomaniac who ran everybody out of town therefore Farmer is the saviour.
mangian - good, heckert Bad, banner good, farmer bad . some perverted texas two step.
Haslam is not the type of owner I had hoped he would be...he is a disappointment.
...going forward, I don't know if Haslam is going to jail or not over his FlyingJ mess. If he does go to jail, turning over the team to a family member with less knowledge and experience running a NFL franchise than Jimmy has... is not a positive move forward for the franchise.
If Haslam does go to jail, someone with a strong football background will be needed to assist the family in managing the franchise. Hopefully Jimmy is planning for the worst, knowing he needs to find that someone who can help the family lead the franchise if Jimmy does have to serve time.
I believe there is a very good chance that Jimmy will end up selling the Browns if he is facing an extended stay behind bars.
The nightmare that began when Haslam bought the Browns is far from being over. Removing the cancer that infected the franchise is a positive step forward, showing that the owner is beginning to show some maturity.
But, the long term future of the franchise is far from being certain or stable...the nightmare is only half over.
there is always a chance that Haslam ends up going to jail. but, 10 high level employees have now done plea bargains with the fed's and they haven't indicted Haslam yet. that seems to indicate that he's kept a good buffer between himself and that mess.
Banner is the one who put us in position to have so many draft picks and cap flexibility. He was going to take a qb at four. Now, I am not so sure.
Eh, I'd beg to differ. We already had a lot of cap and two big FA's hardly put a dent into the cap space we had. As for the picks that's very true, but he did have to trade picks from last year's draft to get them. The result was a lack of talent on the team this year which led to the firing of him, Chud and Lombardi.
Quote: I was a bit surprised by the level of detail and information contained in the Peter King article.
The article was probably needed, and King was a credible person to write it.
i was also. It was very well written, although that is not necessarily creating truth, and King has been right more often than not when i have followed him on a story. It definitely has the "ring of truth" about it; IE a person could imagine the parties involved saying the things attributed to them based on their behaviors in other pressers and interviews.
I'd say I'm THRILLED with this recent embarrassment (and just because I like it and believe it is the right move ... it doesn't mean its not embarrassing) but the lead DA is still around .. are u kidding me with all the excuses folks are throwing around for this guy ....
Banner was "thrust" on him ... *LOL* ... in what world did that happen???? .. has anyone seen the lead DA in action ... NO ONE THRUSTS ANYTHNG ON THAT MAN .... are u kidding me???? ...
PLUS .. how does the TIMELINE WORK ON THAT ONE ... he bought the team in early August ... he hired banner Mid Oct. ... lets see ... that leaves august, sept and half of oct for him to INTERVIEW and find people .... so how was him and banner a MARRIAGE made at nfl headquarters ....
I gotta go .. will be back to blow up more myths and BS being spread about this a-hole we have leading us ...
EVEN THOUGH I LIKE WHAT HE JUST DID I AM STILL BUMMED WE HAVE THIS IDIOT LEADING THINGS .... IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ...... cause based on what we've seen so far only a blind person would have any faith in this guy ...
u know ... I've seen a few say there a lot more positive than they were before the two minion DA's were let go .... I knew I felt better but not positive ... the best way to describe my sentiments ..
I'm less pessimistic that we'll f this off season up as far as personal moves go .. and lets face it .. THIS IS HUGE ... we have a chance to REALLY IMPROVE and be a LEGITE CONTENDER soon with the right moves ...
I have no clue how good farmer and co will be ... but I was POSITIVE we would fail with the DA's leading the talent acquisition this off season ...
Later bro ......
Ah, a voice of reason sprinkled in with the Jimmy love fest. I'm reading all these posts absolving this owner of all these screw ups, using revisionist history to do so, and just shaking my head. It's wild. I hope this guy falls in with some people who know what they are doing, because he obviously does not. Wish you were around more, my friend!
Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other and Browns owner Jimmy Haslam wiped out both
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns CEO Joe Banner and his top lieutenant Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other, and their discord led to Jimmy Haslam firing both, league sources told cleveland.com. Banner and Lombardi clashed over a number of things, but the disconnect came to a head during the tumultuous 25-day coaching search.
By the end of it, Banner wanted to fire his embattled GM, and Lombardi knew it. If he didn't know, he missed the writing on the wall.
But what Banner didn't know -- and should have -- was that Haslam had also grown weary of him during the search -- portrayed as dysfunctional in the local and national media -- and was gearing up to fire him. The owner and the CEO didn't see eye-to-eye over a number of candidates, and Haslam came to feel that Banner was the reason some didn't want to interview for -- or accept -- his coaching job.
Banner took a gamble last year on Lombardi -- who's reportedly set to join Bill Belichick's staff in New England -- despite a thunderous backlash from Cleveland fans and media, and it ultimately contributed to his downfall.
In the latter stages of the coaching search, Lombardi's good friend Belichick was calling to advise Haslam on candidates, including encouraging him to interview fired Bucs coach Greg Schiano, sources confirmed for cleveland.com. Sports Illustrated's Peter King first reported that Banner was miffed about the last-minute Schiano interview, which took place a day or two after their second interview with Mike Pettine at the Senior Bowl in late January.
Against Banner's wishes, the Browns left the Senior Bowl and flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, who was coming off a scandal-rocked 4-12 season, one marred by a MRSA outbreak in the locker room and a public battle between the team and quarterback Josh Freeman. At the time, the interview looked like a favor for a coach down on his luck, but it was more than that. Haslam listened to the recommendations of Belichick and Ohio State coach Urban Meyer, and overrode his CEO's opinion. Others in the organization were also on board with talking to Schiano.
Haslam and Banner were also at odds over Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, according to insiders. McDaniels -- a longtime Lombardi favorite -- supposedly became Haslam's top choice, but Banner had his reservations.
McDaniels had been fired by the Broncos after a controversial reign in which he alienated some players and lost 17 of his last 22 games. He was also fired in large part because of a videotaping scandal. But Lombardi strongly felt McDaniels received a raw deal in Denver, and would excel in the right situation chance, much like his pal Belichick did in New England.
Shortly after the Browns interviewed McDaniels, a Canton native, he pulled his name out of the search, saying he was happy where he was. After the media portrayed McDaniels' withdrawal as another sign that no one wanted the "radioactive'' Browns job, sources told cleveland.com and other local reporters that McDaniels pulled his name out because he was told he wasn't the frontrunner.
The "frontrunner'' retort didn't sit well with some candidates or potential candidates, a source said.
But a McDaniels hire might've also gone over like a lead balloon. During the interview, NFL Network's Mike Silver wrote, “ ... when I read reports that former Denver Broncos coach Josh McDaniels might be the leading candidate to fill the Cleveland Browns opening, I feel like someone has just taken a tire iron to my skull.”
Within about 24 hours after McDaniels pulled out of the search, he called to get back in, sources close to the situation said. This was contrary to a report on NFL Network that the Browns called McDaniels and tried to lure him back into the mix. Regardless, he remained in the running right up until the end, when the Browns hired Pettine on Jan. 23rd. In fact, he received the support and recommendation of Belichick right up until the 11th hour.
McDaniels was likely the "mystery finalist'' the Browns referred to on the day Pettine was hired, although they later said it was Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, who also hadn't yet been eliminated until Pettine agreed to terms.
The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy also presented problems. Sources said that Whisenhunt, who took the Titans head job, would've considered coming to Cleveland but had concerns over the management team in place, specifically Banner.
The Browns had interviewed Whisenhunt for their head-coaching vacancy last year, but passed him over because they were more impressed with the coordinators Rob Chudzinski could produce -- Norv Turner and Ray Horton, sources told cleveland.com at the time. Whisenhunt also interviewed with Buffalo in 2013, but the job went to Doug Marrone.
SI's King reported Wednesday that when Whisenhunt asked the Browns in his interview this year why they didn't hire him in 2013, Banner told him it was because they wanted to see more of a “a championship coaching staff”
Whisenhunt, one NFL source told King, was miffed that Banner, who had never coached, would criticize his choice of assistants.
“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice, King wrote.
Sources told cleveland.com it's true Whisenhunt was told he didn't get the job last year because of his staff, but that he never called Banner out over it during this year's interview or had an edge in his voice. One said there was never an awkward moment during the Whisenhunt meeting and that he was the consummate professional. The discussion was frank and open, but Whisenhunt was non-confrontational.
"Why would someone who was trying to land a job go off on one of the interviewers?'' said one source.
Still, the disconnect amongst the power-brokers was evident by then, and the groundwork had been laid for the end of the short Banner-Lombardi regime. Banner had the job for 16 months, and Lombardi, 13 months -- although he was involved behind the scenes from the moment Haslam agreed to purchase the team 18 months ago.
Sources also said that former Penn State coach Bill O'Brien, who also remains close to his former boss Belichick, wasn't interested in interviewing with the Browns this year because of the management team in place. He talked to Browns last year but opted to remain at Penn State. This year, he took the Texans head-coaching job without interviewing with the Browns.
By the day Pettine was hired, the signs were strong that Lombardi was gone, and that Haslam and Banner weren't in lockstep.
While Lombardi wasn't even present at introductory press conference, Farmer was hailed that day by Haslam and Banner as "a rising star'' in the organization -- the first sign that Lombardi was on his way out.
That same day, Banner also lamented the fact that he didn't get a chance to meet with the Super Bowl-bound Quinn a second time, calling it "the toughest decision'' of the interview process. He went on to praise Quinn, predicting he'd be an excellent head coach some day. It almost sounded like buyer's remorse -- but several sources said that wasn't true, that everyone in the organization was completely on board with Pettine and blown away by his interviews.
A week later at the Super Bowl, Banner continued to praise Farmer in an interview with cleveland.com regarding the assistant GM's decision to turn down the Dolphins' GM job.
"I'm not surprised that other people are recognizing it,'' Banner said. "He's extremely hard-working, smart, totally trustworthy loyal and a great evaluator. He understands the elements of character, personality and drive (in prospects) and he integrates them into the grading of what you see on the film.''
Meanwhile, Banner barely mentioned Lombardi and kept his media-savvy GM out of the public eye all season, describing him in March as a "lightning rod for criticism.'' It was clear that Lombardi had fallen out of favor with Banner, and that the top of the organization was splintered.
Still, two sources said Banner was "flabbergasted'' by his firing and never saw it coming. They said Banner thought Haslam was happy with Banner's first 16 months, during which he attracted excellent top-level executives such as President Alec Scheiner and general counsel Sashi Brown and had overhauled the entire operation.
Insiders also said Haslam may have had second thoughts about firing coach Rob Chudzinski, even though he was completely on board with it at the time.
In the end, the Browns felt they landed an excellent head coach in Pettine after a thorough process in which they cast a wide net. Several sources that perceptions that candidates didn't want their job were inaccurate, and that many excellent prospects called to be interviewed and weren't considered.
The only candidate on their list that actually declined to interview was Broncos coordinator Adam Gase, who told them he wanted to focus on the Super Bowl and was happy with his current job.
In the end, Banner took a chance on Lombardi, and when he set out to fire him, they both went down.
I know you liked Banner because you liked having a smart guy running the show. On the surface of that statement alone I would agree with you. However, apparently those smarts came with tradeoffs. The environment Banner created was not good. There was a black cloud hanging over Berea. There are multiple articles documenting this....including the really damning ones on his effect on the coaching search. He hired his buddy as GM ....the same guy who was ...as reported by Grossi on the radio yesterday ...beginning to undermine Banner (how's that for loyalty btw?). Banner was in such a rush to prove how smart he was, I think that clouded some of the decisions being made.
It's great being smart and all, but when you jot down the list of pros and cons for him and stack them up against each other, you hope the pros outweigh the cons. I don't think that's the case with Banner.
I'd say I'm THRILLED with this recent embarrassment (and just because I like it and believe it is the right move ... it doesn't mean its not embarrassing) but the lead DA is still around .. are u kidding me with all the excuses folks are throwing around for this guy ....
Banner was "thrust" on him ... *LOL* ... in what world did that happen???? .. has anyone seen the lead DA in action ... NO ONE THRUSTS ANYTHNG ON THAT MAN .... are u kidding me???? ...
PLUS .. how does the TIMELINE WORK ON THAT ONE ... he bought the team in early August ... he hired banner Mid Oct. ... lets see ... that leaves august, sept and half of oct for him to INTERVIEW and find people .... so how was him and banner a MARRIAGE made at nfl headquarters ....
I gotta go .. will be back to blow up more myths and BS being spread about this a-hole we have leading us ...
EVEN THOUGH I LIKE WHAT HE JUST DID I AM STILL BUMMED WE HAVE THIS IDIOT LEADING THINGS .... IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ...... cause based on what we've seen so far only a blind person would have any faith in this guy ...
u know ... I've seen a few say there a lot more positive than they were before the two minion DA's were let go .... I knew I felt better but not positive ... the best way to describe my sentiments ..
I'm less pessimistic that we'll f this off season up as far as personal moves go .. and lets face it .. THIS IS HUGE ... we have a chance to REALLY IMPROVE and be a LEGITE CONTENDER soon with the right moves ...
I have no clue how good farmer and co will be ... but I was POSITIVE we would fail with the DA's leading the talent acquisition this off season ...
Later bro ......
Great post.. love reading your slant on things though I must admit I am new to "Diam Speak" .
I hope that with these changes he does just what you say.. backs off and lets those in charge make the football decisions, there is nothing wrong with his oversight and his input, but those that know must make the choices.
We all have our opinions, but it was Banner who brought in all these guys like Farmer, Scheiner, Jenkins, and Sashi Brown.
He is the one who did not want Schiano and McDaniels. He is the one who did want Quinn. He is the one who got us extra picks in this year's draft.
Wisenhut? I didn't want that stiff here to begin with.
Black cloud? Sounds like speculation. Let me ask you this..........how much interaction do you think there is between the Chief Executive Officer and the players?
You are right. I do respect intelligent men. It was Banner's brilliance that kept Philly a contender all of those years. GMs can draft good talent and coaches can get the most out of that talent, but the team's success is short-lived w/out a guy like Banner.
Oh, and I am not asking you to agree w/me about any of this. It's just how I feel. I am not saying I am right. It's just my opinion. Again, I will support the new guys.
This really does make me believe more and more that people didn't even want to interview here, or those that did didn't even want the job cause Lombardi/Banner, or more so Lombardi.
Bringing Lombardi here was just a mistake since it was first considered and then even more so a mistake when it was carried out. Sounds like Banner really slit his wrist by going the Lombardi route and Haslam didn't want tango with either of them anymore after seeing how they worked together and etc. Who knows what the truth is though really. "Something" happened...
Sounds to me like you want to disregard all the negative things about Banner that are CLEARLY there, whether in this article or the several ones/reports that exist both in Philly and in Cleveland.
I think all three are idiots, they think their smarter than everyone else, and possess the biggest egos I've ever seen running the Cleveland Browns.
It was a cancerous situation in Cleveland in just one year. Who knows, it may continue to be that way based on how Haslem handles this new group and/or what becomes of our talent evaluator's success.
The business approach may take a hit based on what Banner accomplished here and how well Scheiner picks up where Banner left off. I do think Scheiner played a big part in the stadium renovations and fan experience portion, but to what extent, I don't know. I think Banner did a lot of very good things in that department (the Business side) as he was known for doing in Philadelphia.
IMO, it was the football side dramatically hindered by his presence and NO ONE will ever change my mind about that. From everything I gather having a little bit of inside info, the Norv Turner rift and Banner wanting to be managing the offense HAS some true legs to it. He hired an idiot in Lombardi to gather information up to the draft but it was Banner that wanted all control in personnel decisions. It was a concern from the beginning and was ultimately his desired plan. Haslem saying he is "streamlining" the Browns says nothing more than dividing business and football....seeing that he no longer wanted Banner involved in football matter. That is clearly evident to me.
Banner was a problem. A problem in Philly and a problem in Cleveland. Now to be fair, not the only problem but a big one. And still a problem (or Stooge for some) remains in Cleveland....and thats Haslem's approach as an owner. He needs to step back and allow the football people do their thing.
Addition by subtraction by letting those two go as far as I am concerned. Based on organizational structure alone it was not going to work let alone their football approach to it all. There is still a long way to go but at least the organizational structure makes a ton more sense today than it did one year ago. Hopefully, Farmer knows his talent because that's what's gonna change this team-- not stadium renovations, not the fan experience, not a "consensus" in decision making, not a uniform change.
Winning. That's the only thing and it will be accomplished by adding the right guys in the draft and keeping the good ones we have here.
Diam...not going to pick stuff apart. Just one thing stuck out for me.
Aug Haslam bought the team and then hired Banner in Oct. Its seems you suggest that he came on the scene in Oct. But in August he was a minority owner in purchasing the Browns. Haslam and Banner were forever linked together from day one. The NFL will do this all the time to assure themselves that a team will be organized with somebody who has knowledge when a new owner is involved (not that a new owner pops up often). It also has been said that Banner did a lot of good in establishing the Organization in structure so that Haslam did need him.
I saw the trouble with Banner being the lack of LEADERSHIP needed to wield the power that he had. Lombardi...I think he was in over his head and depended a lot on Farmer for the correct evaluations. I think he had OPINIONS not fact and was the one who wanted to get rid of Gordon/trade. Banner wanted to micro manage even things ran in detail by the Offense. They didn't support Chud at all.
Haslam was away he knew so much was messed up from when he left to when he had the time to look at the Browns internally. Of course Banner and Lombardi pointed fingers at Chud mostly Banner I presume.
Well that is the way I look at it. Look the bright side of Haslam coming on board to replace Randy was that he was going to be hands on. Not Banner hands on. Banner was around football enough to know...but he didn't really know if you know what I mean.
Now we got our hands on owner. The choice of Pettine for Banner was a Settle Hire and would not probably work hard for Pettine to succeed just like he didn't work hard to have Chud succeed.
Vers....One thing I know. Our Draft Board is completed...there will only be a few tweaks from Combine Interviews and possibly a surprise talent here n there. Nothing should change from the board.
As for the QB it was FARMER sent to evaluate the QBs whatever decision we were/are to make on the QB in the draft was weighing heavily on Farmer regardless who pulled the trigger. Actually we might have duplicate trigger pulling such as our Board in 2013 having McFadden in the 4th round not 3rd. Things like that.
This draft is very important for our franchise I think there is less ITS MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY despite what the guys we hired say. And more cohesiveness with Pettine and Farmer to build this thing. I wish Chud has this make up instead of what he had. I'm sure there would be a big difference. But maybe its part of our destiny to get a kick butt QB cause last year if we had more success we would be picking around 16 not 4.
JMHO...excuse me for once again seeing the bright side of things...lol I cannot help it.
Quote: No, I have no inside information. Only logic and reason.
Banner, like I did, knew that Weeden sucked eggs. He made several moves to ensure that we were in a good position to secure a qb in this upcoming draft, where there were several potential candidates.
I agree with you that Weeden sucked and everyone knew that. We need a QB and I believe everyone pretty much knows that as well.
What I don't believe is that every move was done with drafting a QB in mind. I believe each move was independent. Considering the production verses investment in TRich, you simply don't pass up the opportunity to trade him for a first rounder. You take that deal 10 out of 10 times.
I don't believe the later picks with Pitt. are enough to have any real value in a trade up scenario for a QB.
I don't believe you can have it both ways. Everyone knows that Banner is a shrude negotiator. He has never been known to sell the farm for anyone. That would be doing a complete 180 from what he is known for.
I also don't believe you can simply do the "insert name here" with the QB position that high in the draft. I have never seen, at least not since the 80's, a draft class where 3 of the top QB's in the draft are worth the #4 overall pick.
I believe that when all the homework is done, Banner would have had a target and a ceiling for what he would have paid. I'm not disagreeing with you that a QB wasn't his top priority. However I believe that will be the top priority for anyone running the Browns.
I don't see that a shrude mind like Banner would have done anything like an RG3 deal to land a QB. And I don't believe he would have simply taken one of the top 3 rated QB's to "take a QB".
Quote: I know you are just being an ass, but at least I answered you. Have a nice day.
Yes I thought it was funny to turn the tables since you did the exact same thing to Attack.
But thanks for answering and at least we now both know where each other stand on the subject.
Quote: I don't believe the later picks with Pitt. are enough to have any real value in a trade up scenario for a QB.
They would have little impact, merely as a throw-in to seal a deal. When you are playing in the top few picks of the draft, you need to bring the weight...
By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group February 13, 2014 at 9:13 AM
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns CEO Joe Banner and his top lieutenant Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other, and their discord led to Jimmy Haslam firing both, league sources told cleveland.com.
Banner and Lombardi clashed over a number of things, but the disconnect came to a head during the tumultuous 25-day coaching search.
By the end of it, Banner wanted to fire his embattled GM, and Lombardi knew it. If he didn't know, he missed the writing on the wall.
But what Banner didn't know, and should have, was that Haslam had also grown weary of him during the search -- portrayed as dysfunctional in the local and national media -- and was gearing up to fire him.
The owner and the CEO didn't see eye-to-eye over a number of candidates, and Haslam came to feel that Banner was the reason some didn't want to interview for -- or accept -- his coaching job.
Banner took a gamble last year on Lombardi -- who is reportedly set to join Bill Belichick's staff in New England -- despite a thunderous backlash from Cleveland fans and media, and it ultimately contributed to his downfall.
In the latter stages of the coaching search, Lombardi's good friend Belichick was calling to advise Haslam on candidates, including encouraging him to interview fired Bucs coach Greg Schiano, sources confirmed for cleveland.com. Sports Illustrated's Peter King first reported that Banner was miffed about the last-minute Schiano interview, which took place a day or two after their second interview with Mike Pettine at the Senior Bowl in late January.
Against Banner's wishes, the Browns left the Senior Bowl and flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, who was coming off a scandal-rocked 4-12 season. The year was marred by a MRSA outbreak in the locker room and a public battle between the team and quarterback Josh Freeman. At the time, the interview looked like a favor for a coach down on his luck, but it was more than that. Haslam listened to the recommendations of Belichick and Ohio State coach Urban Meyer, and overrode his CEO's opinion. Others in the organization were also on board with talking to Schiano.
The Josh McDaniels candidacy
Haslam and Banner were also at odds over Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, according to insiders. McDaniels -- a longtime Lombardi favorite -- supposedly became Haslam's top choice, but Banner had his reservations.
McDaniels had been fired by the Broncos after a controversial reign in which he alienated some players and lost 17 of his last 22 games. He was also fired in large part because of a videotaping scandal. But Lombardi strongly felt McDaniels received a raw deal in Denver, and would excel in the right situation chance, much like his pal Belichick did in New England.
Shortly after the Browns interviewed McDaniels, a Canton native, he pulled his name out of the search, saying he was happy where he was. After the media portrayed McDaniels' withdrawal as another sign that no one wanted the "radioactive'' Browns job, sources told cleveland.com and other local reporters that McDaniels pulled his name out because he was told he wasn't the frontrunner.
The "frontrunner'' retort didn't sit well with some candidates or potential candidates, a source said.
But a McDaniels hire might've also gone over like a lead balloon. During the interview, NFL Network's Mike Silver wrote, “ ... when I read reports that former Denver Broncos coach Josh McDaniels might be the leading candidate to fill the Cleveland Browns opening, I feel like someone has just taken a tire iron to my skull.”
Within about 24 hours after McDaniels pulled out of the search, he called to get back in, sources close to the situation told cleveland.com. This was contrary to a report on NFL Network that the Browns called McDaniels and tried to lure him back into the mix.
Regardless, he remained in the running right up until the end, when the Browns hired Pettine on Jan. 23. In fact, he received the support and recommendation of Belichick right up until the 11th hour.
McDaniels was likely the "mystery finalist'' the Browns referred to on the day Pettine was hired, although they later said it was Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, who also hadn't yet been eliminated until Pettine agreed to terms.
The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy
The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy also presented problems. Sources said that Whisenhunt, who took the Titans head job, would've considered coming to Cleveland but had concerns over the management team in place, specifically Banner.
The Browns had interviewed Whisenhunt for their head-coaching vacancy last year, but passed him over because they were more impressed with the coordinators Rob Chudzinski could produce -- Norv Turner and Ray Horton, sources told cleveland.com at the time. Whisenhunt also interviewed with Buffalo in 2013, but the job went to Doug Marrone.
SI's King reported Wednesday that when Whisenhunt asked the Browns in his interview this year why they didn't hire him in 2013, Banner told him it was because they wanted to see more of a “a championship coaching staff”
Whisenhunt, one NFL source told King, was miffed that Banner, who had never coached, would criticize his choice of assistants.
“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice, King wrote.
Sources told cleveland.com it's true Whisenhunt was told he didn't get the job last year because of his staff, but that he never called out Banner over it during this year's interview or had an edge in his voice. One source said there was never an awkward moment during the Whisenhunt meeting and that he was the consummate professional. The discussion was frank and open, but Whisenhunt was non-confrontational.
"Why would someone who was trying to land a job go off on one of the interviewers?'' said one source.
Beginning of the end
Still, the disconnect amongst the power-brokers was evident by then, and the groundwork had been laid for the end of the short Banner-Lombardi regime. Banner had the job for 16 months, and Lombardi, 13 months -- although he was involved behind the scenes from the moment Haslam agreed to purchase the team 18 months ago.
Sources also said that former Penn State coach Bill O'Brien, who also remains close to his former boss Belichick, wasn't interested in interviewing with the Browns this year because of the management team in place. He talked to Browns last year but opted to remain at Penn State. This year, he took the Texans head-coaching job without interviewing with the Browns.
By the day Pettine was hired, the signs were strong that Lombardi was gone, and that Haslam and Banner weren't in lockstep.
While Lombardi wasn't even present at introductory press conference, Farmer was hailed that day by Haslam and Banner as "a rising star'' in the organization -- the first sign that Lombardi was on his way out.
That same day, Banner also lamented the fact that he didn't get a chance to meet with the Super Bowl-bound Quinn a second time, calling it "the toughest decision'' of the interview process. He went on to praise Quinn, predicting he'd be an excellent head coach some day. It almost sounded like buyer's remorse -- but several sources said that wasn't true, that everyone in the organization was completely on board with Pettine and blown away by his interviews.
A week later at the Super Bowl, Banner continued to praise Farmer in an interview with cleveland.com regarding the assistant GM's decision to turn down the Dolphins' GM job.
"I'm not surprised that other people are recognizing it,'' Banner said. "He's extremely hard-working, smart, totally trustworthy loyal and a great evaluator. He understands the elements of character, personality and drive (in prospects) and he integrates them into the grading of what you see on the film.''
Meanwhile, Banner barely mentioned Lombardi and kept his media-savvy GM out of the public eye all season, describing him in March as a "lightning rod for criticism.'' It was clear that Lombardi had fallen out of favor with Banner, and that the top of the organization was splintered.
Still, two sources said Banner was "flabbergasted'' by his firing and never saw it coming. They said Banner thought Haslam was happy with Banner's first 16 months, during which he attracted excellent top-level executives such as President Alec Scheiner and general counsel Sashi Brown and had overhauled the entire operation.
Insiders also said Haslam may have had second thoughts about firing coach Rob Chudzinski, even though he was completely on board with it at the time.
In the end, the Browns felt they landed an excellent head coach in Pettine after a thorough process in which they cast a wide net. Several sources said that perceptions candidates didn't want their job were inaccurate, and that many excellent prospects called to be interviewed and weren't considered.
The only candidate on their list who actually declined to interview was Broncos coordinator Adam Gase, who told them he wanted to focus on the Super Bowl and was happy with his current job.
In the end, Banner took a chance on Lombardi, and when he set out to fire him, they both went down.
I've been wondering about this for awhile and I will finally share it. I was watching Banner in the PC where Chud was fired and he did not look like his normal self. He was clearly uncomfortable and looked very unhappy----------even for him--------LOL
I have been wondering if firing Chud was Haslam's move and Banner did not approve of that move. It could have been the beginning of the end.
Then, when Banner opposed Haslam in regards to Schiano, Haslam's ego just couldn't take it.
Sorry...........the more I think about this, and I have been thinking about it quite a bit, I don't see how we are better off w/out Banner.
I don't get the respect that Banner is receiving from you. I mean to each his own and all, but Banner bothered me from the beginning, I warmed to him and then I have to say, it went downhill in a hurry at the end of the season.
After all is said and done, I like this new streamlined management structure. It's a good structure. The question will always be, are the right pieces. (Farmer, Sheiner and Pettine).
I like what I'm hearing from Farmer. I don't know much about Sheiner except what we see on his resume (and that's fine for a guy not in the limelight and running the business end). What little I know of Pettine is good. Sounds and acts like the guy that's needed to turn this thing around.
Quote: I don't believe the later picks with Pitt. are enough to have any real value in a trade up scenario for a QB.
They would have little impact, merely as a throw-in to seal a deal. When you are playing in the top few picks of the draft, you need to bring the weight...
But you guys are ignoring the fact that you NEED those extra picks to bring in other players if you give up the higher picks. You don't get that?
But that once again begs the question...... How much do you honestly believe a shrude negotiator like Banner would have given up to get a QB?
He has never been known to overpay or go "all in" like that given his history. I believe you somehow feel Banner would have done a 180 against all of his tendencies to make a huge deal for a QB. I simply don't see that.
Had the right QB have fallen to where he could have made what he saw as a "reasonable deal", I believe you are right. But I simply don't buy into the fact that Banner would have sold the farm for a QB.
I also know it was Farmer who was sent to evaluate the QB's. I don't see anything in Banners resume' to suggest he would have been the most qualified for the job of scouting and selecting a QB.
Quote: Vers....One thing I know. Our Draft Board is completed...there will only be a few tweaks from Combine Interviews and possibly a surprise talent here n there. Nothing should change from the board.
Agreed. This same concern was brought up shortly after Heckert was fired December 31, 2012 and many were assured (and I agreed with) that most of the draft board is normally completed at the time of his firing plus the scouting staff was all kept in tact through the draft to add continuity to their work and justification of value slotting.
The only problem was the scouting staff was not even allowed in the draft room come the 3-day draft, but that is a completely different issue . An dumb organizational move reported directly after the draft and reaffirmed recently.
Look........I am the one who brought those mid-round picks up.
I didn't think I would have to explain that they are important because you need extra picks when you give up other higher picks. I was NOT saying that they would be used in moving up. I AM saying you need them when you lose the higher picks.
It was a very good strategy and it amazes me how few people give Banner any credit for all those moves.
It's always black and white. It can't be that he did some good things and some bad things. Nope, everything was stupid and he was evil. It begins with Once upon a time and ends with Everyone lived happily ever after.......
Quote: It's always black and white. It can't be that he did some good things and some bad things. Nope, everything was stupid and he was evil. It begins with Once upon a time and ends with Everyone lived happily ever after.......
I don't know how much he would have given up. I have no inside information. I am only speculating. I have already admitted to that.
What I do know is that he put himself into position to move up. It's evident he never believed in Weeden and his moves tell me that he was positioning the team to get the QB they identified.
Banner did send Farmer, but Lombardi did a ton of work evaluating QBs, too.......most notably, Johnny Football.
Hopefully, Farmer will draft a QB at four or before and all of this rhetoric will be for naught.
Quote: It was Banner's brilliance that kept Philly a contender all of those years.
Your smarter than this. Any monkey with a calculator can manage the numbers. Andy Reid and Donovan McNAbb kept Philly a contender. Banner had zero to do with wins on the field. He is a number crunching snake, everyone in the philly area knows it.
Yes we can agree we need a QB and I hope they can land which ever QB their target is.
I do believe Banner put us in a position to move up as well. The only place I really felt we disagreed was the extent Banner may have been willing to pay to move up.
As much as you may wish to not believe it, I did give Banner credit for some of the moves he made. It's not really black and white to me.
I think we can all appreciate Banner in the aspect of acquiring a first round pick for Trent, who's next season is going to be a gut-wrencher for him cause the jist I get, Indy fans are very unhappy with that move... it'll be his third season where people are already itchy to classify him as bust and writing him off as a mistake. Maybe he can catch onto the game and live up to high-draft pick talent, but it's looking grim.
Don't forget the Colt McCoy trade too, which was rather beneficial. Especially since San Fran got him and then tried to trade him before, to my knowledge at least - reworking his contract to a league based minimum.
The Bess trade "would have been awesome" if we didn't trade for a psycho that is on riding his last brain cell into the dirt.
I don't have all that much hate towards Banner. With that said, I'm not really sad to see him leave either. I like this setup, Farmer, Alec and Mike and they report directly to Jimmy. Jimmy said it best, streamlining it!
If the article is true, i wouldnt want to coach the browns either. Why would you talk to interviewees like that? I would have punched him in the face followed by cuss words, lol
There was no intent IMO to streamline the communication flow. If there was a problem, it was Haslam getting fed a line of BS or mis-information. No reason at all why the new structure shouldn't work; it's simple and should be effective. The "move" wasn't made merely for streamlining; it was done to get his house in order, cleaning up the dysfunctionality...
Although I agree, it wasn't the intent of the moves to "streamline" communications, obviously some sorta fallout happened - but the result is what it is and now the communication lines and etc seem to be much more streamlined than the previous structure.
On Tuesday morning, the Cleveland Browns cleaned house. Again. General manager Michael Lombardi -- fired. CEO Joe Banner -- out. It seemed stunning, even by Browns standards.
Who fires the brass in early February after a coaching search? And why does this seem like an annual tradition?
If you listened closely, wherever you were in this great country, you heard the media and fans cackling in unison. It was like Jimmy Haslam's press conference was a sitcom filmed in front of a live studio audience, or a Chris Rock comedy special.
The Browns were mocked as clowns, a mess of an organization. Cleveland changing coaches and executives like you change your socks. Everyone was having a grand old time yucking it up.
Laugh now, but the joke will be on you later.
Haslam saw a problem. He fixed it. The Browns are much better off. Seriously.
Haslam is an easy target: He buys the team, makes sweeping changes, oddly structures the front office, unsuccessfully targets big-name coaches before settling on Rob Chudzinski, fires Chud less than 365 days later, struggles to find a coach who wants the gig, hires Mike Pettine to coach the team despite Banner's dreams of Dan Quinn, then gets rid of Banner and Lombardi.
With the offseason underway, Around The League explores what's next for all 32 teams.
Whew. I need a rest after reading that.
Such rapid and unrelenting change can signal the lack of a plan or vision. Maybe that's true. Or maybe Jimmy Haslam just hit a home run.
The Lombardi and Banner dynamic wasn't working. TheMMQB.com's Peter King and The Plain Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot have provided some excellent reporting on Cleveland's issues over the past few days, including King's detailing of Greg Schiano's interview with the Browns, which revealed dysfunction and disconnect at the top.
One coaching agent told me on Tuesday, "Jimmy (Haslam) had one idea. Mike had another. Joe another one. That leads to confusion and chaos. That's what happened with the coaching search in both of the last two years. That's the turn-off." Or as one rival executive explained to me, "Mike is a great football guy, but he couldn't get many things he wanted past Joe. It just didn't work. Now, with Ray (Farmer), they are back in business."
Oh yes, they are.
Farmer is a highly respected personnel man in the NFL. Well before this promotion, it was clear that he was on the fast track to becoming a general manager somewhere. He's detail-oriented, intelligent and will get things done. Haslam said Farmer will have full control of the 53-man roster. That's a big deal. Lombardi, the prior GM, did not enjoy this luxury. Farmer could've been the Miami Dolphins' general manager, but he passed to stay in Cleveland. While folks laugh at the Browns, that says something.
Cleveland won four games last year. But with the regime changes, a whole bunch of cap space and a ton of talent already on the roster, I think the Browns are in prime position to double their win total in 2014. Again, seriously.
Pettine might not have been the first choice, but he's an excellent one. He was a superb assistant at his first two NFL stops (Baltimore Ravens and New York Jets), and he immediately turned around the Buffalo Bills' defense last year. Pettine brings a much-needed blend of savvy, swagger and sensibility to Cleveland's head-coaching position.
Talking to Pettine two weeks ago on my SiriusXM Radio show, "Schein on Sports," he raved about the Browns' talent on defense and said, "We are going to have an attacking style defense that Cleveland fans will be proud of." Given Pettine's history, the Browns' strong pass rushers and Joe Haden's emergence as one of the NFL's best corners, Cleveland's defense is indeed going to rock.
I also loved the choice of Kyle Shanahan for the offensive coordinator position. Executives rave about the young coach's shrewdness in the X's-and-O's sense. And with the passing of the Brandon Weeden era, Shanahan will have the opportunity to help define a fresh approach at the quarterback position. Talking to Pettine, there is no question the Browns will bring in a new QB or two. How great would Kirk Cousins look in a Cleveland uniform, reuniting with Shanahan? Even better, how great would Johnny Manziel look running Shanahan's offense? Say what you want about Mr. Football, but he, along with Pettine and Shanahan, would give the Browns the right attitude and mentality going into Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.
The Browns have two first-round picks and 10 overall in an incredibly deep draft. They have options.
Debate: Most enticing free agent WR? Many notable receivers -- like Jeremy Maclin -- are hitting the open market. Who's the best option? Our analysts debate. READ And with all that cap room, they can make a splash in free agency, too. How about signing Ben Tate to play running back? That'd fill a gaping hole. And check the list of receivers hitting the open market -- some enticing options there. Do you think Eric Decker or Hakeem Nicks would look good alongside Josh Gordon and Jordan Cameron?
Laughing is healthy. I encourage it. But stop chuckling at Cleveland. Get past the bevy of changes. Look at the result of the perceived insanity.
It's easy to compare this to George Steinbrenner's New York Yankees of the 1980s. Or maybe the comparison is when "The Boss" hired Bob Watson and some guy named Joe Torre in the winter of 1995. Remember when the back page of the New York Daily News screamed "Clueless Joe"?
The Browns are actually moving in the right direction. Get past the laughter and think about it.
Quote: You keep acting like you have inside information. Wanna clarify that? I don't really consider Insider information from journalists all that legit. You might want to add "possibly," or "rumor has it," to your declarations. Unless, of course, you know someone who has had access to all those meetings.
Vers, I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to comment.
I am too skeptical of "insider" information, but direct quotes were used, and Whisenhunt has not refuted them so I have to believe it could be accurate.
If this was true, it does shine some insight on how Banner was conducting the interviews. As for Mc Daniels, I think he saw there was no concensus on his hiring, and didn't want to take the risk. I'm glad he did, IMO, he is not a HC.
i do wish that journalists were willing to give a more reasonable viewpoint these days though. this article is almost as sappy optimistic as the La Canfora article was suicidally negative.
Quote: IMO were SCREWED til he either gets a clue and backs off and gives his FOOTBALL PEOPLE a chance to do there jobs ......
He just did.
He fired two non-football people and put his football people front-and-center.
Even if we replaced them with nobody, I'm quite convinced that we're better simply by not having Banner and especially Lombardi. Banner is nothing but a control-freak bean counter. Lombardi is just a freak, and not in a good Jevon Kearse sorta way.
i do wish that journalists were willing to give a more reasonable viewpoint these days though. this article is almost as sappy optimistic as the La Canfora article was suicidally negative.
Quote: [Trading for future picks] was a very good strategy and it amazes me how few people give Banner any credit for all those moves.
If people agree that trading for the future picks is a good idea, then they credit Banner for it. Some people just would rather have used the picks to improve the team for 2013. Also, everyone gives Banner credit for the Richardson trade.
It seems that you have blinders on when it comes to Banner. You liked and respected him so much that you can't believe the stories that are coming out about him. These stories could be false, but doesn't that mean Banner just has tons of people out there who want to bury him? Do we really want someone running the team who has so many enemies?
My guess is that a good portion of the things coming out about Banner are true. Let's say 60%. If that much is true then he should have been fired.
Quote: [Trading for future picks] was a very good strategy and it amazes me how few people give Banner any credit for all those moves.
If people agree that trading for the future picks is a good idea, then they credit Banner for it. Some people just would rather have used the picks to improve the team for 2013. Also, everyone gives Banner credit for the Richardson trade.
It seems that you have blinders on when it comes to Banner. You liked and respected him so much that you can't believe the stories that are coming out about him. These stories could be false, but doesn't that mean Banner just has tons of people out there who want to bury him? Do we really want someone running the team who has so many enemies?
My guess is that a good portion of the things coming out about Banner are true. Let's say 60%. If that much is true then he should have been fired.
I call things like that half-good moves. They're only as good as what you reap from them.
For example, we traded KW2 for a 2nd and a 5th, which I though was a great move. We then squandered it. I think we got Veikune and Larry Asante?
The Julio trade is another good example.
The trades are great if you hit on your return.
As for Banner, I blasted a lot of people for jumping the gun on him. It's turning out that they were right. Might've been a blindfolded dart hitting double bull, but the guy certainly went down in flames.
As I let this whole set of changes sink in, I think that I think the following:
Banner was a very smart guy, but he wanted everyone to know and accept that he was the smartest guy in the room. That doesn't fit well with everyone, and in fact, it doesn't fit well with anyone over an extended period of time.
Even though he has yet to coach a single game for us, I think that we got really lucky with Pettine. I think that comments Banner has made, (about Chud, and also the stuff about Whisenhunt's staff) really hurt him. I think that a first year head coach candidate would be more likely to overlook such things, but a guy who had been a head coach in the past is probably less likely to overlook such things.
I think that Haslam actually came into this whole ownership ill prepared, because the Steelers have been such a model franchise. That sounds somewhat backwards, but the Steelers have key pieces in place, and have for years. The owners don't have to worry about getting it right, because they already have. I suspect that Haslam expected to hire a guy and have him in place for 10 years. Unfortunately, that didn't work out.
I do wonder who initiated the change at Head Coach following last season. It seems almost like Haslam wanted to stay with Chud, and had to be talked into firing Chud. I think that Haslam respected Banner, until he didn't. That sounds counter-intuitive, but I really think that Haslam trusted Banner until he felt that he no longer could,
I also believe that the rift growing between Banner and Lombardi upset Haslam. If a front office if built upon a cooperative approach, having a CEO and GM at odds tends to destroy cooperation.(and trust) I truly believe that both Banner and Lombardi thought that they would be the survivor in an all out battle, and both had to be surprised that they were both dumped.
I have no idea how Farmer will do at GM. Banner did make some shrewd moved, but also signed a bunch of backups. I like Kruger, even if he's not the pass rusher we hoped for. He is very good at setting the edge in the run game, and is a huge part of the reason we improved in run defense. I like the Richardson trade, and I like the trades of picks for better picks in a better draft. That said, Banner always struck me as the guy who wants everyone to acknowledge him as the smartest kid in the room. I wonder how many other trades we might have made, but the other team backed off because they didn't like the way Banner wanted to deal with them.
I do like the fact that we now have a clear chain of command, answering directly to Haslam. Any owner is going to sit at the top ...... but this gives all aspects of the team equal access to the owner. It also allows for unedited communication. Imagine if Chud could have gone directly to Haslam without having to go through Banner or Lombardi. Maybe things might have turned out differently.
It seems like the way Banner acted towards the very idea of interviewing Schiano was the last straw for Haslam. While I am glad that we wound up with Pettine, (at least, so far) Banner's behavior in that interview, as reported, could not have sat well with Haslam. It had to get the wheels turning, and set Haslam on the path of taking a hard look at his organization. Maybe this is when he actually became an owner.
I liked some aspects of the Banner/Lombardi team, at least at first, and disliked others. I was willing to give them a chance. They did some good, and some bad. When they fired Chud, Banner said that it was better to make the change now if you just didn't feel that he was going to be the guy long term. It is ironic that Banner fell victim to that same logic.
I like what I know of Pettine, and I like what I know of Farmer. I hope that they will both be long term answers for this team.
The more I look at this the more I like it. Both Pettine and Farmer were guys with a goal in mind. Neither got where they were due to a favor or close friends.
These guys started small and worked their way up. That says a lot about their character and drive. These type of people are rarely swayed by others opinions of them, and stick to the process they have used to get where they are.
Confidence seems to flow from these guys,and that type of thing is contagious. Even if they don't end up as the best ever, I'm sure it is safe to say that they never stopped trying.
Quote: CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns CEO Joe Banner and his top lieutenant Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other, and their discord led to Jimmy Haslam firing both, league sources told cleveland.com.
Banner and Lombardi clashed over a number of things, but the disconnect came to a head during the tumultuous 25-day coaching search.
By the end of it, Banner wanted to fire his embattled GM, and Lombardi knew it. If he didn't know, he missed the writing on the wall.
But what Banner didn't know, and should have, was that Haslam had also grown weary of him during the search -- portrayed as dysfunctional in the local and national media -- and was gearing up to fire him.
The owner and the CEO didn't see eye-to-eye over a number of candidates, and Haslam came to feel that Banner was the reason some didn't want to interview for -- or accept -- his coaching job.
Banner took a gamble last year on Lombardi -- who is reportedly set to join Bill Belichick's staff in New England -- despite a thunderous backlash from Cleveland fans and media, and it ultimately contributed to his downfall.
In the latter stages of the coaching search, Lombardi's good friend Belichick was calling to advise Haslam on candidates, including encouraging him to interview fired Bucs coach Greg Schiano, sources confirmed for cleveland.com. Sports Illustrated's Peter King first reported that Banner was miffed about the last-minute Schiano interview, which took place a day or two after their second interview with Mike Pettine at the Senior Bowl in late January.
Against Banner's wishes, the Browns left the Senior Bowl and flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, who was coming off a scandal-rocked 4-12 season. The year was marred by a MRSA outbreak in the locker room and a public battle between the team and quarterback Josh Freeman. At the time, the interview looked like a favor for a coach down on his luck, but it was more than that. Haslam listened to the recommendations of Belichick and Ohio State coach Urban Meyer, and overrode his CEO's opinion. Others in the organization were also on board with talking to Schiano.
Haslam and Banner were also at odds over Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, according to insiders. McDaniels -- a longtime Lombardi favorite -- supposedly became Haslam's top choice, but Banner had his reservations.
McDaniels had been fired by the Broncos after a controversial reign in which he alienated some players and lost 17 of his last 22 games. He was also fired in large part because of a videotaping scandal. But Lombardi strongly felt McDaniels received a raw deal in Denver, and would excel in the right situation chance, much like his pal Belichick did in New England.
Shortly after the Browns interviewed McDaniels, a Canton native, he pulled his name out of the search, saying he was happy where he was. After the media portrayed McDaniels' withdrawal as another sign that no one wanted the "radioactive'' Browns job, sources told cleveland.com and other local reporters that McDaniels pulled his name out because he was told he wasn't the frontrunner.
The "frontrunner'' retort didn't sit well with some candidates or potential candidates, a source said.
But a McDaniels hire might've also gone over like a lead balloon. After the interview, NFL Network's Mike Silver wrote, “ ... when I read reports that former Denver Broncos coach Josh McDaniels might be the leading candidate to fill the Cleveland Browns opening, I feel like someone has just taken a tire iron to my skull.”
Within about 24 hours after McDaniels pulled out of the search, he called to get back in, sources close to the situation told cleveland.com. This was contrary to a report on NFL Network that the Browns called McDaniels and tried to lure him back into the mix.
Regardless, he remained in the running right up until the end, when the Browns hired Pettine on Jan. 23. In fact, he received the support and recommendation of Belichick right up until the 11th hour.
McDaniels was likely the "mystery finalist'' the Browns referred to on the day Pettine was hired, although they later said it was Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, who also hadn't yet been eliminated until Pettine agreed to terms.
The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy
The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy also presented problems. Sources said that Whisenhunt, who took the Titans head job, would've considered coming to Cleveland but had concerns over the management team in place, specifically Banner.
The Browns had interviewed Whisenhunt for their head-coaching vacancy last year, but passed him over because they were more impressed with the coordinators Rob Chudzinski could produce -- Norv Turner and Ray Horton, sources told cleveland.com at the time. Whisenhunt also interviewed with Buffalo in 2013, but the job went to Doug Marrone.
SI's King reported Wednesday that when Whisenhunt asked the Browns in his interview this year why they didn't hire him in 2013, Banner told him it was because they wanted to see more of a “a championship coaching staff”
Whisenhunt, one NFL source told King, was miffed that Banner, who had never coached, would criticize his choice of assistants.
“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice, King wrote.
Sources told cleveland.com it's true Whisenhunt was told he didn't get the job last year because of his staff, but that he never called out Banner over it during this year's interview or had an edge in his voice. One source said there was never an awkward moment during the Whisenhunt meeting and that he was the consummate professional. The discussion was frank and open, but Whisenhunt was non-confrontational.
"Why would someone who was trying to land a job go off on one of the interviewers?'' said one source.
Beginning of the end
Cleveland Browns: Mike Pettine named head coach View full size Even though the search had its rough patches, in the end the Browns are happy that they landed Mike Pettine as their coach. Thomas Ondrey, The Plain Dealer
Still, the disconnect amongst the power-brokers was evident by then, and the groundwork had been laid for the end of the short Banner-Lombardi regime. Banner had the job for 16 months, and Lombardi, 13 months -- although he was involved behind the scenes from the moment Haslam agreed to purchase the team 18 months ago.
Sources also said that former Penn State coach Bill O'Brien, who also remains close to his former boss Belichick, wasn't interested in interviewing with the Browns this year because of the management team in place. He talked to Browns last year but opted to remain at Penn State. This year, he took the Texans head-coaching job without interviewing with the Browns.
By the day Pettine was hired, the signs were strong that Lombardi was gone, and that Haslam and Banner weren't in lockstep.
While Lombardi wasn't even present at introductory press conference, Farmer was hailed that day by Haslam and Banner as "a rising star'' in the organization -- the first sign that Lombardi was on his way out.
That same day, Banner also lamented the fact that he didn't get a chance to meet with the Super Bowl-bound Quinn a second time, calling it "the toughest decision'' of the interview process. He went on to praise Quinn, predicting he'd be an excellent head coach some day. It almost sounded like buyer's remorse -- but several sources said that wasn't true, that everyone in the organization was completely on board with Pettine and blown away by his interviews.
A week later at the Super Bowl, Banner continued to praise Farmer in an interview with cleveland.com regarding the assistant GM's decision to turn down the Dolphins' GM job.
"I'm not surprised that other people are recognizing it,'' Banner said. "He's extremely hard-working, smart, totally trustworthy loyal and a great evaluator. He understands the elements of character, personality and drive (in prospects) and he integrates them into the grading of what you see on the film.''
Meanwhile, Banner barely mentioned Lombardi and kept his media-savvy GM out of the public eye all season, describing him in March as a "lightning rod for criticism.'' It was clear that Lombardi had fallen out of favor with Banner, and that the top of the organization was splintered.
Still, two sources said Banner was "flabbergasted'' by his firing and never saw it coming. They said Banner thought Haslam was happy with Banner's first 16 months, during which he attracted excellent top-level executives such as President Alec Scheiner and general counsel Sashi Brown and had overhauled the entire operation.
Insiders also said Haslam may have had second thoughts about firing coach Rob Chudzinski, even though he was completely on board with it at the time.
In the end, the Browns felt they landed an excellent head coach in Pettine after a thorough process in which they cast a wide net. Several sources said that perceptions candidates didn't want their job were inaccurate, and that many excellent prospects called to be interviewed and weren't considered.
The only candidate on their list who actually declined to interview was Broncos coordinator Adam Gase, who told them he wanted to focus on the Super Bowl and was happy with his current job.
In the end, Banner took a chance on Lombardi, and when he set out to fire him, they both went down.
Quote: I call things like [the Trent Richardson trade] half-good moves. They're only as good as what you reap from them.
I don't agree with this. The move to make the trade is one move. The player you draft with the pick is a different move.
Quote: Might've been a blindfolded dart hitting double bull, but the guy certainly went down in flames.
I don't think this is true. I think that Banner (and Lombardi) didn't value any running back as highly as they valued a first round pick. They got great value, they made the deal.
Quote: It seems that you have blinders on when it comes to Banner.
I don't see it that way. In fact, much of what I am saying is because the vast majority of the board are looking at this in such a one-sided light.
They keep focusing on his arrogance. Seriously?
They are ignoring that he was the one against Schiano. If he were the one who had wanted Schiano, they would be screaming bloody murder.
They are ignoring he was against hiring McDaniels. Again, they were blasting him when they thought that was who he wanted.
They are ignoring he wanted to wait for Quinn, yet they were blasting him because we didn't wait for Quinn.
They are ignoring he is the one who brought in these guys who are now supposed to lead us to the promised land and instead are focusing only on his hiring of Lombardi.
Do I think Banner was perfect? Hell no. But, he is not getting the credit he deserves and is being unfairly portrayed. What's more, I think most didn't like him from the start and never really gave him a chance. Unfortunately, I also believe his physical appearance actually has a role in this.
I still wonder if we got rid of the wrong guy. It seems that Lombardi and Haslam are the ones who are clueless and Banner's feelings on this process were the ones that were correct.
I don't know if ignoring is the right word. Plenty of people are giving Banner credit for several things he did.
Quote: Do I think Banner was perfect? Hell no. But, he is not getting the credit he deserves and is being unfairly portrayed.
But you are definitely in the minority in thinking the good outweighed the bad. Disregarding many of the reports as speculation when there are direct quotes is peculiar. I think he is being portrayed very fairly. He did many good things (hiring Farmer and Scheiner, getting the stadium deal done, trading Richardson, etc) and all of these things are being discussed and applauded.
Quote: I think most didn't like him from the start and never really gave him a chance.
I agree with this. I just don't understand why it makes you upset.
Quote: I still wonder if we got rid of the wrong guy. It seems that Lombardi and Haslam are the ones who are clueless and Banner's feelings on this process were the ones that were correct.
Haslam is staying whether we like it or not. But is eminently clear that Banner did several things that were fireable offenses. And that is not including the fact that people around the league did not want to work with him. The right move was to fire Banner and Lombardi. If Haslam distrusted Banner there was no way anything was ever going to work.
Quote: It seems that you have blinders on when it comes to Banner.
I don't see it that way. In fact, much of what I am saying is because the vast majority of the board are looking at this in such a one-sided light.
They keep focusing on his arrogance. Seriously?
They are ignoring that he was the one against Schiano. If he were the one who had wanted Schiano, they would be screaming bloody murder.
They are ignoring he was against hiring McDaniels. Again, they were blasting him when they thought that was who he wanted.
They are ignoring he wanted to wait for Quinn, yet they were blasting him because we didn't wait for Quinn.
They are ignoring he is the one who brought in these guys who are now supposed to lead us to the promised land and instead are focusing only on his hiring of Lombardi.
Do I think Banner was perfect? Hell no. But, he is not getting the credit he deserves and is being unfairly portrayed. What's more, I think most didn't like him from the start and never really gave him a chance. Unfortunately, I also believe his physical appearance actually has a role in this.
I still wonder if we got rid of the wrong guy. It seems that Lombardi and Haslam are the ones who are clueless and Banner's feelings on this process were the ones that were correct.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I gave the devil his due plenty of times this year. I didn't like the hire but as I've said a bunch of times now, I warmed to it. he didn't trade Gordon, he got a 1st for TRich and he or his group of guys brought in Hoyer who I like so far.
So I recognize the value he brought, in the end, when measured against the arrogance and REAL LACK of football knowledge that he professed to have, I'm glad he's gone.
Quote: It seems that you have blinders on when it comes to Banner.
I don't see it that way. In fact, much of what I am saying is because the vast majority of the board are looking at this in such a one-sided light.
They keep focusing on his arrogance. Seriously?
They are ignoring that he was the one against Schiano. If he were the one who had wanted Schiano, they would be screaming bloody murder.
They are ignoring he was against hiring McDaniels. Again, they were blasting him when they thought that was who he wanted.
They are ignoring he wanted to wait for Quinn, yet they were blasting him because we didn't wait for Quinn.
They are ignoring he is the one who brought in these guys who are now supposed to lead us to the promised land and instead are focusing only on his hiring of Lombardi.
Do I think Banner was perfect? Hell no. But, he is not getting the credit he deserves and is being unfairly portrayed. What's more, I think most didn't like him from the start and never really gave him a chance. Unfortunately, I also believe his physical appearance actually has a role in this.
I still wonder if we got rid of the wrong guy. It seems that Lombardi and Haslam are the ones who are clueless and Banner's feelings on this process were the ones that were correct.
Whoa there buddy.....
First they are focusing on his arrogance because that was a HUGE PROBLEM in the organization...it led to a hostile workplace environment. It had negative affects in professionalism during interviews. It had negative effects in our perception within the NFL as well as the public opinion. Some people flat out REFUSED to even do ANY business with us because of Joe Banner. THAT IS FACT
I didn't see ANYONE ignore the fact that he was against Schiano....In fact many are lauding him for it. BUT here is the problem...HIS BOSS based on the suggestion from SEVERAL high football minds (2 of which included Belichick and Meyer..just stating reported names but noting that there were others)...HIS BOSS WAS INTERESTED. and his EGO interfered with his professionalism. Now I don't care how you feel about Schiano...I don't think I would have wanted him either...but you don't act like a freaking spoiled brat that didn't get his way and try to sabotage the interview by being cold, unresponsive, and disinterested during the interview. Case in FACT....he did not do his job which was to thoroughly interview Schiano (who knows maybe Schiano could have surprised him) and do it with the intent that Schiano could possibly handle the job of Head Coach of the Cleveland Browns. Because that was what HIS BOSS asked him to do.
As for the McDaniels and Quinn things you are stating...I haven't seen much of those accusations either...From all that I have read...McDaniels was Lombardi's guy....Quinn was Banner's guy, but he was also high on Pettine. We went with Pettine....Me personally...I don't see what everyone's hub bub is all about...
As for the guys he brought in.....Who has he brought in that is going to lead us to this promised land???Kruger???Leon McFadden???Garret Gilkey???Was Mingo a GREAT pick, solid pick, OK pick????(people are definitely questioning it) All of our Pro Bowlers this year were either Mangini or Heckert guys....And THEY are our foundation of which we are building on RIGHT NOW....So who is it that is leading us to the promised land...so far it looks like Mangini and Heckert are the ones who did that.
Banner did some REALLY good things...he is GREAT with the salary cap, he set us up fantastically for this years draft. and as PDR said...we have to take advantage of those picks or the Richardson move and the draft day trades last year don't mean a thing. Personally I liked Banner and a lot of the things he was doing...I liked the Kruger and Bryant moves, I liked the move with Richardson (hated that we didn't even TRY to replace him tho), I like the stockpiling of picks....But he also did a lot of things that tell me that this firing was the correct move...because he WAS hampering the progress of the Cleveland Browns.
I don't think anyone ever doubted Banner's business acumen, nor had any problem with him on that level. Heck of a bean counter, good at drumming up business and sales.
That said, judging by reports from now-departed coaches like Norv, I would say that he wasn't exactly a well respected boss. He may know his business stuff, but by most accounts he was anything but a good leader.
Unfortunately, we need just a wee bit more than that on the football side of things.
But you are definitely in the minority in thinking the good outweighed the bad. Disregarding many of the reports as speculation when there are direct quotes is peculiar. I think he is being portrayed very fairly. He did many good things (hiring Farmer and Scheiner, getting the stadium deal done, trading Richardson, etc) and all of these things are being discussed and applauded.
Your fascination w/picking apart my posts is peculiar. I haven't disregarded anything. You are putting words into my mouth. If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance. I realize that seeing both sides of an argument upsets the little world that some of you live in, but in many circles, a good debate is actually appreciated.
Quote: As for the guys he brought in.....Who has he brought in that is going to lead us to this promised land?
The same guys who everyone is raving about now. Farmer, Scheiner, Sashi Brown, Pettine, etc.
Yeah,, I'm sure he brought in Farmer and Scheiner but I have my doubts that he was the driving force behind Pettine. In fact, that may have been the breaking point between him and haslam.. not sure of course, but it fits the time line.
As for Sashi Brown.. I don't remember anyone bringing that person up. but Ok..
None of that overshadows the damage an arrogant attitude can bring down on a team.
Quote: I don't know if ignoring is the right word. Plenty of people are giving Banner credit for several things he did.
Quote: Do I think Banner was perfect? Hell no. But, he is not getting the credit he deserves and is being unfairly portrayed.
But you are definitely in the minority in thinking the good outweighed the bad. Disregarding many of the reports as speculation when there are direct quotes is peculiar. I think he is being portrayed very fairly. He did many good things (hiring Farmer and Scheiner, getting the stadium deal done, trading Richardson, etc) and all of these things are being discussed and applauded.
Quote: I think most didn't like him from the start and never really gave him a chance.
I agree with this. I just don't understand why it makes you upset.
Quote: I still wonder if we got rid of the wrong guy. It seems that Lombardi and Haslam are the ones who are clueless and Banner's feelings on this process were the ones that were correct.
Haslam is staying whether we like it or not. But is eminently clear that Banner did several things that were fireable offenses. And that is not including the fact that people around the league did not want to work with him. The right move was to fire Banner and Lombardi. If Haslam distrusted Banner there was no way anything was ever going to work.
Good stuff. I think you guys are bringing this all together nicely.
I think Vers understands that in spite of doing some good things, and having some good qualities as a company bad guy, that Banner was a liability going forward. The PR, the free agents, the working with agents, etc... It got so messy, doing his job, that its best he moves on. Just like Chud, he will be financially rewarded for it. Very much so.
I don't want all decisions to be made strictly by Farmer and Pettine. The Lerner era really torched me when it came to "football people" who weren't being watched and held accountable making all the decisions. It doesn't work. We need an owner that the football people have to look in the eye throughout the week. He has actually tailored this, by plan or mistake, to be close to what he originally suggested -- the steelroid setup.
I wanted an owner who seemed invested. Who was present. Who appeared to really care about his organization. Who had the nads to hold everybody accountable. So far, Jimmy, in spite of making mistakes, seems to be that. One of the most "tell all" elements of the presser was when Jimmy fessed up to screwing up over the past year. That was about as much as anyone will ever get from a billionaire who has run successful businesses. Jimmy has a huge ego. For him to let go with the "learning curve of an owner" thing was telling. Although he may be easy for us not to like, at this time, I have a better feeling for where we are headed than at any time since 99. Jimmy screwed up. Banner screwed up. We are one good quarterback away from being a solid playoff contender.
Quote: Your fascination w/picking apart my posts is peculiar.
I read everyone's posts the same. I respond to you in detail for multiple different reasons. (If you would like to know those reasons please private message me. I am guessing you don't care to know.)
Quote: I haven't disregarded anything. You are putting words into my mouth.
You have responded to multiple different articles by saying they are speculation when the articles have direct quotes from people.
Quote: If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance.
Would you care to elaborate on this statement? You're saying you base your arguments on what the majority of people think and then you take the other side? For example, if everyone thought we should take a QB at pick four, you would argue the other side just for balance?
Quote: I realize that seeing both sides of an argument upsets the little world that some of you live in, but in many circles, a good debate is actually appreciated.
Are you saying I haven't acknowledged both sides of the argument?
Quote: If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance.
No, it's called being a contrarian. Opposing popular opinion is more important to you than a genuine and accurate interpretation of the facts, an interpretation that doesn't change simply because a certain percentage of people believe one way. Not very admirable.
Quote: I'm sorry, but I really don't get the emphasis on arrogance. It sounds like an excuse for saying "I don't like that guy."
I get you don't get that. If you did, we wouldn't be having this discussion LOL
You want more? Ok, he wasn't a football guy in the sense where he understood the players talents and abilities or the coaching and what to look for in a HC in Philly. That was in 1999 and prior. Go check his track record for his entire tenure in Philly and you'll see, he's a business guy.. That's not a bad thing. It's just not the guy I want picking my players and coaches.
So, while in Philly he says he was part of the hiring of Reid. that's like Schiener being part of the group that hired Pettine or Chud. Which is to say, he had nothing to do with it. (that's schiener hiring Chud or Pettine that is, don't confuse that)
So I don't believe that Banner had anything to do with hiring the HC in Philly other than getting the contract done. I don't think he ever picked a player in Philly. I don't think he had anything to do with the draft in Philly. The only evidence of that is HIM saying he did. Nothing else exists (that I can find) that references him being in that role in any way.
I DO think he had a lot to do with managing the CAP in Philly and to that end, it appears that he let some quality guys go because of age and dollars. That's pretty much been documented and referred to a lot. (you can deny that if you like, but I don't think you stand a chance of convincing many on here that you are right)
Here is an excerpt from the Wiki page on Banner:
Quote: Pre-Football Career
Banner attended the Rivers School in Massachusetts and studied economics at Denison University in Ohio. In 1975, he spent a semester interning at WCAU 1210 AM radio in Philadelphia; soon after, he was hired there as a sports producer and reporter.[3]
Banner left WCAU when he opened a chain of clothing stores in Boston called Designer’s Clothing. He then became Co-Chairman of the Board for the Greater Philadelphia chapter of City Year, a national non-profit organization promoting community service for youth.[3] [4]
Football Executive
In 1994 Banner began his work in professional football when Jeffrey Lurie, an old friend, purchased the Eagles.[3] He was promoted in 1996 to senior vice president,[5] and in 1997 from senior vice president of administration[6] to executive vice president.[7][8] In 2006, his contract was extended through 2010.[9] On April 1, 2010, his contract was extended three more years through 2013.[10] He changed positions on June 7, 2012, becoming the strategic adviser to team owner Lurie. Don Smolenski replaced Banner as president.[11]
In 2001, Banner received a "PARTNERS Leadership Award" from the University of Pennsylvania for his extensive community service, including volunteer activities reading to students in the Boston public schools and spending time with severely ill children in the Boston Children's Hospital.[12] He has also been heavily involved, in both Boston and Philadelphia, with City Year, a program based on volunteers who commit to a year of full-time volunteer work.[13][14][15][16]
In 2012, Banner was reportedly part of a group that was interested in purchasing the Cleveland Browns.[17]
On October 16, 2012, Banner was announced as the new CEO of the Cleveland Browns by new owner Jimmy Haslam III.[18]
On February 11, 2014, the Cleveland Browns announced that Banner (as well as the team's General Manager, Mike Lombardi) would be leaving the Browns within the next two months.[19]
(Just a side note here: not that it means much, but he owned a string of Designers Mens Clothing stores? Do you see how the man dresses? YIKES.. No wonder he's not still doing that LOL )
Where in there did he EVER hold a position that would lead you to believe he can pick players?
He DID hire Schiener.. And he's VERY qualified to have done that. He may have hired Sasha Brown and it appears he's VERY qualified to have done that.
He should be qualified to hire a Football Guy like a GM, yet first crack out of the box on his own without Reid or Lurie, he hired Lombardi. Wanna tell me that was a good idea?
If you are trying to hire a guy to do a job that you yourself aren't qualified to do, it can be done and has been done a lot. Both in sports and in business.
You write up a job description after digging around to find out what skills it takes to excel in the position you are recruiting for, then you set up a search committee and you get to recruiting. you find the guy, hire him and then let him do his job.
But NOTHING in his background indicates ANY prior experience in hiring football people to run that side of the business prior to coming here.
If you just go by his resume, you will find that he didn't qualify to do anything but run the accounting, legal, admin for the browns. that's it.
he was OVERHIRED when they put him in charge of anything to do with hiring coaches and drafting players.
Did he do some good things.. yeah, he did and I've applauded him for those things. I'll add the hiring of Schiener and Brown. (I really don't know much about Brown but I don't think it's a big deal)
I'll leave it at that. I've substantiated my position.., you may not like it or believe it, but it's what I believe and there is some facts to at least make my position plausible.
If I could...direct you to points 3:15 and 5:00 marks of the interview. Here he discusses his short time working w/ Farmer, their philosophies, and the early attempts of cohesion between the personnel and coaching departments. I enjoyed the 5:00 response but at this point in the game, it's all narrative.
Quote: You worry way too much about what people are saying rather than just debating the topic.
Huh? Isn't the whole debate based on what people are saying?
I have to be honest... I'm scratching my head on that one too.
Banner did some good stuff but clearly there was an issue between Haslam and Banner that couldn't be reconciled. They couldn't work together anymore, Haslam is the owner, therefore Banner gets the axe.
Personally, I had soured on Banner especially after the Chud stuff so I'm glad the change was made. Hoping for the best!
Quote: I'll leave it at that. I've substantiated my position.., you may not like it or believe it, but it's what I believe and there is some facts to at least make my position plausible.
I don't have a problem w/your position. Not at all.
I am not trying to change your mind. I don't need others to see it my way.
However, I do think I have the right to express my opinion w/out all the biting rhetoric that is so common on this board. Furthermore, I do not understand why people get so upset about both sides of an argument being presented. I am not saying you feel that way because I have seen you argue the other side. It's just a general statement.
Quote: I'll leave it at that. I've substantiated my position.., you may not like it or believe it, but it's what I believe and there is some facts to at least make my position plausible.
I don't have a problem w/your position. Not at all.
I am not trying to change your mind. I don't need others to see it my way.
However, I do think I have the right to express my opinion w/out all the biting rhetoric that is so common on this board. Furthermore, I do not understand why people get so upset about both sides of an argument being presented. I am not saying you feel that way because I have seen you argue the other side. It's just a general statement.
and I can appriciate that you don't have a problem with my position, but you took a position saying you didn't understand all the (what did you call it) hate for Banner.. I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember your exact words.
I gave you a picture of my reasoning and it seems clear you cannot refute my argument.
So, did I change your mind? do you now accept he was a mistake and that he misled Haslam as to his ability and experience? Did I at least give you reason to reassess your thoughts on the man and his background and experience?
Come on, man. It's been that way for years. It happens w/almost every player, coach, GM, etc.
If most think a guy stinks, they get mad if you defend them. If they think a guy is good, they get upset if you point out a weakness. If they think a GM is great, don't you dare criticize him about anything. If they don't like the guy, he is a stooge.
I think there are arguments to be made on both sides most of the time. I also think that sometimes, the opinions on the boards are whacked. I mean.......completely whacked, such as the ones thinking Weeden would magically turn it around because he was playing w/Norv.
You are a smart guy and I respect your intelligence. I wish we could have better conversations. Have you ever noticed how my debates w/ddubia go? Heck, Diam comes off as a jerk, but we actually have good debates. Ezyre19 and I had a good discussion. Razor and I disagree on when to draft a qb and who to draft, but it was a good discussion. There just are not that many people on here that want to debate in that way.
It's like they feel exposed if someone challenges their opinion. It's so important to appear to be right. There are guys on here who agree w/me, but can't bring themselves to say it, so they respond to another poster. LOL man..............
Are you telling me you haven't recognized any of that?
I don't have a problem w/your take and I do think parts of what you say are true. However, I think there are other aspects that you are not giving much credence to.
We don't have to agree, Daman. It's cool to debate it. I will say I am already getting tired of defending Banner and its only been a couple of days. He's gone. Nothing can be done about it now.
Like I said earlier, I will support the new regime............at least until they pass on Teddy or Manziel and draft a WR. Then, I will raise holy hell and probably quit watching the team until they show me they can win again.
Quote: Vers Said: He said I was a contrarian who put more emphasis on opposing popular opinion than on the facts and that it wasn't an admirable trait.
Did you think that was a compliment?
And when have I ever lied about anything?
Not defending how he said it but you did post this:
Quote: Vers said: If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance. I realize that seeing both sides of an argument upsets the little world that some of you live in, but in many circles, a good debate is actually appreciated.
That sounds like a contrarian to me... why not just post what you honestly think even if it happens to be in line with the vast majority of other posters? Would be less confusing I think. jmho
I do post honestly. However, there are typically two sides to each event. I know that Banner has faults. I also know that he has strengths. Not sure what is so hard to understand?
Quote: If there were a ton of people on here singing Banner's praises, I would argue the other side. It's called balance.
It's not that hard. Banner, like almost every executive, coach, player has both positives and negatives.
I believe that people are obsessed w/concentrating on his negatives. They dismiss the good things w/conciliatory remarks and focus on trivial matters such as his arrogance. Do you realize how many arrogant people there are in authoritarian positions? Was Holmgren not arrogant? Yet, they didn't bash him for it.
Now, if people were ONLY pointing out the good things about Banner, than I would be inclined to point out his negatives, such as not being the easiest guy to approach, his lack of experience at evaluating players, etc.
I simply do not like it when one side of the argument is overly stressed while the other side is either ignored or dismissed as not very important.
Not sure what is so hard to understand. And no, it is not contrarian and lacking factual evidence.
Quote: The more I hear Pettine talk, the better I feel about him. If he's half the coach he is as a man, we're in for a fun time.
Really? He said I was a contrarian who put more emphasis on opposing popular opinion than on the facts and that it wasn't an admirable trait.
Did you think that was a compliment?
And when have I ever lied about anything?
Couple of quick points, you quoted one of my posts, but actually responded to another,, had me a little confused there.. Please don't do that. I'm confused enough without your help
Another point is, I have no idea what your talking about with the lying thing. So I'm afraid I'm at a total loss there.
No intent to offend, but honestly, when he called you a contrarian (sp) he responded to something you wrote and frankly, I agree with him.
Take a moment, go back and read what you wrote to get him to say that. My guess is that you are way smarter than to think that it's not possible you caused that remark.
Oh,, and I didn't think you being a contrairian was a bad thing. so am I. I get people all riled up when I take a stand and won't back down... LOL I get it all the time. (were you around when I equated congress to terrorists,, Holy hell man,, I got beat on relentlessly LOL I enjoyed that or how about the twitter thing, I swear to you, I think its idiot to allow twitter on here, but I'm getting beat on about that as well)
So while I didn't miss anything, I just didn't think what he called you was all that bad. Thus I didn't equate it to any name calling. Did you get that?
I don't have a problem w/your take and I do think parts of what you say are true. However, I think there are other aspects that you are not giving much credence to.
We don't have to agree, Daman. It's cool to debate it. I will say I am already getting tired of defending Banner and its only been a couple of days. He's gone. Nothing can be done about it now.
Like I said earlier, I will support the new regime............at least until they pass on Teddy or Manziel and draft a WR. Then, I will raise holy hell and probably quit watching the team until they show me they can win again.
What am I not giving proper credence too?
If and it's a big IF, Manziel or Teddy or both are there when we draft, I hardly think they'd pass. But if they are both gone, I'd assume you'd be ok with a top WR? Right?
Quote: I don't think anyone ever doubted Banner's business acumen, nor had any problem with him on that level. Heck of a bean counter, good at drumming up business and sales.
That said, judging by reports from now-departed coaches like Norv, I would say that he wasn't exactly a well respected boss. He may know his business stuff, but by most accounts he was anything but a good leader.
Unfortunately, we need just a wee bit more than that on the football side of things.
This will explain some of what was gong on..
Mike Lombardi provided information on candidates and gave his thoughts on such. He had his favorite, Josh McDaniels and the team owner interviewed and really liked McDaniels -- Due to how McDaniels was the preconceived pick from the Lombardi end and Banner having his own thoughts, Haslam became concerned with those in the FO.
Lombardi stuck his neck out there by basically disagreeing and having some backbone in dealing with Banner in the later stages
.Haslam had heard the rumors, got to see first hand how Banner operated and also learned how Banner attempted to manipulate the assistant coach hiring process for Shanahan.
He also did not want Shanahan.Banner wanted to wait on Quinn while Haslam liked Petitne.
Quote: If you want someone to take what you're saying with any interest. Some sort of proof is required..
There are people on this board that question common knowledge if an article isn't posted..
But I assume you don't care what anyone else thinks about how you know what you know..
And then I would just question what's the point of giving knowledge if you have no proof it's knowledge..
This ain't a court of law.....but if U read my earlier posts , U will see that what I post isn't a article. If I do have a article I will post a link. Like I said since I do not post here as often as I used to, I try to share what I am privy to. No one has to believe it or not..it's just there to inform others.
Quote: If most think a guy stinks, they get mad if you defend them. If they think a guy is good, they get upset if you point out a weakness. If they think a GM is great, don't you dare criticize him about anything. If they don't like the guy, he is a stooge.
This the exact reason I don't post very frequently. If you disagree or offer a different position on something, you are automatically lumped into one side or the other. Apologist or hater are the terms used. It doesn't matter that most is opinion.
Myself saw good and bad in both Banner and Lombardi. I saw some good with Holmgren, but was blinded by optimism. I have given all the changes over the years time to prove themselves. I'm not one who is up on things like FO guys. I have no set perception of Haslam, but while this latest move could be considered knee jerk, successful CEOs and corporate leaders need to make decisions like he did without worrying about public backlash.
Over thew years between this and the old board, I found agreement with many people, some others lambasted while others are still respected for their opinion. Myself loved some of the stuff Diam said. I was always intrigued by your posts also, but in no way would I say I agreed with everything from either of you. Eotab has always been one of my favorites, but I even disagree with some things be says.
I guess my point is I like that there is difference in opinion, it makes us all better. If someone can't look at the other side and at least try to understand their reasoning, they are losing out IMO. Opinions are the venting of ones feelings. They can change, and that is a good thing, at least in life, not so much on these boards. Posters love to pigeon hole others once they say something, as if they never have changed their minds in their life.
Changing feelings about a subject is healthy, if it comes from true revelations about the subject. Daman has been blasted for years as a "fence sitter" and other IMO derogatory ways, yet he always backs up his feelings, I respect that a lot. I like Daman's opinion, but that doesn't mean I think he is always right, just that he has convictions and stands with them. To me that is an admirable trait.
I just wish many would just ask why someone feels the way they do without looking at them as right or wrong. Just explain why you disagree, don't try to belittle someone for their opinions.
Vers, my advice to you, take it or leave it, is just ignore the baiting you sometimes get. I would say the same to Django. He's someone that I usually disagree with, but he always seems to explain why he feels he way he does.
Anyway, sorry for losing site of the topic of the thread.
Attack has been a member of this board for a long time. I have read many of his posts and would trust his insider information more than something posted by Mary Kay or Grossi from one of their unnamed league sources.
"Contrarian" is not name calling, nor is qualifying that label by saying it isn't admirable. I based that judgment on you saying you will argue different sides of an issue depending on where popular opinion lies. But to be honest, I doubt you really do that. Have you ever argued a position you didn't actually believe? Or, perhaps you are a true relativist, in which case it would be hard to take any of your positions seriously given that they don't come from genuinely held beliefs.
So, here's my contribution to this discussion. Perception is everything. If it is in fact the case that Banner was making it hard to do business in the NFL, then he had to go. Holding Haslam accountable for hiring him has some merit, but I don't think you can really get the full measure of a person from an interview. There is an element of luck to hiring people. You can only reduce that risk so much with the limited information you have about that person. So, I don't really blame Haslam all that much.
Oh geez, come on. All Attack is doing is regurgitating stuff he reads over on the insider section of the OBR. Know how I know? Because I am also a subscriber and read the same stuff. As a matter of fact, anyone who is willing to pony up $9.95/month can have the same privilege. Attack nearly plagarizes half of his posts from that site.
Quote: Oh geez, come on. All Attack is doing is regurgitating stuff he reads over on the insider section of the OBR. Know how I know? Because I am also a subscriber and read the same stuff. As a matter of fact, anyone who is willing to pony up $9.95/month can have the same privilege. Attack nearly plagarizes half if his posts from that site.
Look, I am not trying to call Attack out. What bothers me is that he presents it in a way that indicates he knows someone on the team which would lead to people believing it. The Insider information is nice, but one must understand that they are not always accurate.
Nice post. We don't always agree, but I think we both get where the other is coming from.
Mantis: The part that bothered me was where you said I would rather oppose popular opinion than use facts. That sounds like a euphemism for saying I am a liar. And of course, I believe in what I say. I am just saying that there are two sides to every story and I like to bring up the other "facts" in the story if the majority of people are ignoring them. Not sure how that is a bad thing???????
GM: We've been doing a lot of that lately, bro................but, it's all good.
You always rely on facts. No problem there. It's the interpretation of the facts where your contrarian nature comes out. One can only be a liar about facts, so you aren't that. But sometimes when reading your posts I wonder if you are trying to "stir things up" for the sake of balance, and as a result it's harder to take you seriously. But like I said, I don't think you are a true relativist. I think you really do believe everything you post. As for Banner, I liked a lot of the stuff he was doing last year. It's unfortunate he didn't have a better personality because his skills would have been valuable for this team.
Quote: Daman...that was a great post. Thank you for educating me.
Contrarian - sorry 4 syllables that cannot register on a Sports message board for me
Vers I won't get into it cause I know it upsets you...but take a read of your posts you made some contradictions and I'm talking just this page
+2
Personally I think Banner did some great things for Cleveland. But I think firing the coaching staff after only 1 year is so bad that when you combine it with even just some of the other negative stuff being discussed (allowing for much of it to maybe be false) then ya... it was time to send him packing. It's all so very subjective though. Let's all hope that Farmer/Pettine can work well together. Both are rookies and that does worry me... but it worries me less than having Banner making draft picks so... ya.
Quote: Daman...that was a great post. Thank you for educating me.
Contrarian - sorry 4 syllables that cannot register on a Sports message board for me
Vers I won't get into it cause I know it upsets you...but take a read of your posts you made some contradictions and I'm talking just this page
What actually frightens me is that all of that info was available when Banner was hired and I said all that back then. It was almost completely ignored so I figured, hey, maybe I'm wrong. As it turns out, I wasn't. Sorry to report that.
Overall, Banner did do quite a few good things for the Browns.
Not the least of which is that he left us with a ton of CAP room, 10 picks (with 2 being in the first round), a pretty darn good infrastructure that includes Farmer and Schiener.
Financially, I'd bet you that the balance sheet is in excellent order and it appears that everything from a legal stand point is in order.
He probably had a lot to do with the Stadium upgrades that are underway as well.
So, given his strengths, adminstratively, he's left us in very good shape or so it appears.
I have never once questioned his ability in those areas. Clearly he's a pro in that regard. it's the football things that always made me shutter. But, I gotta say this as well, he did well with the Richardson trade and the biggest thing might have been that he didn't trade Gordon when there were supposed to be offers on the table for him..
But to counteract that, he left a gaping hole at RB and WR. So there you have it, most of his success came in the form of setting up the business to succeed, but not the team on the field.
I think he served his purpose for Haslam. Get the organization in the right direction (not talking the field part but internally) I just think he bit off more than he could chew and this Industry (NFL) seems to need dynamic leaders off the field as well as around.
Banner was smart but not a good leader. Btw if it bothers posters that they post in Orange when answering I would fix that but if it doesn't matter then I'll leave it alone.
I do think we just stream lined our FO with some pretty good talents.
This dude, after one lousy year as an Owner, just showed the NADS and took the SLEDGEHAMMER to 2 of the biggest buffoons to ever grace an NFL Front Office.
You bet your ass I've got faith in Haslam.
He saw exactly what was going on here and he took action.
Blame that on Haslam if you want, but the blame lays squarely on BANNER.
Go re-read what I just pulled from your post ... read it .. then think about it for a few minutes (even longer if u have too and remember .. U WROTE IT ...) ..... if u still feel I'm a dimwitted idiot with no clue as to what he's talking about ...... well then ....
God Bless U man ... everyones entitled to there opinion ....... they say there's a fool born every minute ... I just didn't realize until just this very moment they were all Browns fans ...
OK .. your colored Blind ... so there's a real good chance I won't ever respond to U again ... I know .. horrible news ... your so sad ... *L*
Carry on dude .. GO BROWNS!!!
tabber ... I don't think he was a minority owner in aug .. he bought 70 % of the team ... he still needed league approval but that was just a formality ...
and bro ... Haslam was NOT A NEW OWNER ... he'd been a minority owner of the Stilers since 08 FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF LEARNING HOW TO RUN A FRANCHISE .... thats just more of the BS people are basically making up so they feel better about our direction (and I don't mean U tabber .... IMO U WOULD NEVER EVER PULL THAT KIND OF BULLCRAP ... that's not who u are and I know that ... so please don't think I mean u when I say that ... ) ...
this dude NEEDED NO HAND HOLDING .... NONE ... he had 4 years to watch and learn ....
Banner was HIS CHOICE .... CLEARLY HIS CHOICE .... another huge arrow in my favor here Tabber .. your a smart guy ... after watching Haslam do u honestly think he's ever even once in his life done what someone else wanted him to do with something that is his????? NO WAY IN HELL TABBER .... this dude is the DOMINANT PERSONALITY in the room when it comes to making decisions about anything that's his ... NO ONE ... and I mean NO ONE IS GONNA TELL HIM HOW TO STEER HIS SHIP .... NO ONE ... did I make myself clear on that one ..
and that's gonna be the next myth I address .... the myth that u NEED A HANDS ON OWNER TO SUCEED .... I SAY BULLCRAP and will present my case later tonight ....
Dude colored BLIND .... no need to read unless u want to get mad cause I offended your boy Jimmy "DA" Haslam ....
Banner did legal work on the deal that got Haslem the team, the NFL basically said, hey, here's this guy, he's good at this stuff, hire him..
Ohhh, gonna need some sort of proof on that. I wasn't lead to believe that whatsoever. In fact I was lead to believe that it was in fact Haslams direct hire.
Quote: Haslam chose not to dump dirt on the folks who are leaving, praising them effusively for the jobs they did and thanking them over and over. But it’s pretty clear the NFL-arranged marriage between Haslam and Banner didn’t work, and Haslam wanted to regain charge of his team.
This is what I could find for now, google is chock full of Banner getting fired articles, finding any on the deal is a task...
I don't think he was a minority owner in aug .. he bought 70 % of the team ... he still needed league approval but that was just a formality ...
I was talking about Banner - I thought at first in Aug. Banner was said to have 5% as a minority owner but was going to be the CEO/Czar whatever.
Then when it all became official Banner was out as a Share holder and just named CEO.
As for the meetings. No Haslam definitely doesn't appear to be the meek guy sitting back. But he is no Hillbilly and is a Business man.
He was in a meeting that - HE WAS NOT RUNNING. He was an Onlooker and yes owner. But he is sitting back and Observing. It was his observations of Banner and Lombardi conducting the meeting and the way they were handling the candidates. There is not one quote noted to be said to or asked by Haslam in these meetings. Its all Wisenhunt speaking to Banner. The other candidates speaking to Banner or Lombardi. Correct me if I'm wrong not one conversation was given credit to Haslam from these meetings.
That is how a Meeting would be with the Owner observing. I think he Absorbed and was rather shocked at the unprofessional way that everything was being handled.
Minority owner of the Steelers - yeah he had an inkling but chose Banner - do you think he sought out Banner or the NFL suggested Banner to Haslam?
Also possibly he had a heads up of trouble brewing with PILOT. So he definitely needed Banner to run things while he attended to his family business.
Just for the record...I never had any preference of Hands on owner...actually I always thought the owner should have a Football Guy (which Banner is not) Run Things. His inquiry to Parcells was interesting.
But I am willing to back him as a hands on owner. I think this past few weeks is the first Mark of him being a hands on owner cause Banner's unprofessional business demeanor was a shock to him and he soured on him fast.
We had also over kill. Sheiner and Farmer gave reason to not have a need for Banner and Lombardi. These are guys he can have with us for 20 years. Can you imagine a senile old Banner running things still here.
This is the only reload I'm giving Haslam - I consider from here forward this being HIS TEAM. He took charge and this is it. Now if he becomes a Rooney and we continuity great. If he becomes a Schneider and we got a reboot all the time cause of meddling or a Jones ownership as he makes himself the GM...
But I like Farmer I like what I have read about Sheiner. I loved Chud and the staff he assembled I didn't like the reboot but I also think Pettine can be a Super Star HC...and I know WE NEED THAT FREAKING QB!!!! and we can start the real Browns era....Once and for all!
look ... this ones a little hazy cause everyone definition of a hands on owner is different .... so i'll try the best I can to give u my definition(s) ... see what I mean by hazy .. *L* ..
I want an owner like the Rooneys ... to me there hands off even though over the last decade there names have been in the news more often than the previously 40 years when u didn't know they were alive ...
they HIRE PEOPLE to there football positions and let them do there jobs .... they are around but LEAVE THERE FOOTBALL PEOPLE ALONE .... they hire folks and then let them either strive or fail on THEIR OWN MERITS not on what the owner believes should be going on ... if there QB is suspected/charged with rape your gonna hear fro them ... if a potential big time FA WR wants to try and negotiate via the press U will HEAR FROM THEM ... and good for them ... *L* ... other than that ...
the guys like them to me .... Bob Kraft is another GREAT MODEL of what Mr. Myiaga said ... hands on ... hands off .. oh wait .. that was wax ... *L* .. hes there ... but he leaves his FOOTBALL PEOPLE ALONE ...
some more are the dude from the SeaHawks .. and hes a great example .. hes had some winning but lots of losing along the way ... but one thing hes done is let his football people do there jobs .... hes had to step in a few times but it was when his football people started to not get along and that usually only happened after they'd been together for at least 3 or 4 years (thinking of the walrus and his GM when he started there .. then the walrus got power hungry and got the gm booted .... and while I'm talking about it .. allen gave him a FAIR AMOUNT of time and then showed him the door) ...
theres more ... the glaziers in Tampa, Lurie, Mara, York, Wilson ... etc etc ...
NOW onto the HANDS ON OWNERS IMO .... now were talking guys like Jerry Jones, Daniel Snyder (the old one .. hes backed off just not sure how much), ... WOW ... that's about it ... much shorter list than I thought ... *L* ...
to me these guys ARE WAY TO INVOLVED with there teams .... there teams will NEVER WIN UNTIL THEY BACK OFF ...
and look at there records for the proof ... Jones won with Landry and Schramms leftovers and he brought in the hair and let him coach ... LEFT HIM ALONE ... they won and WON BIG ... then Jerry's ego got in the way and he pushed the hair out ... he then SUCKED until the brought in the tuna ... GREAT MOVE ... it scared me ... I thought OH NO .. he's gotten it ... then he decides hes gonna try and tell the tuna who to draft .. and BYE BYE TUNA ...
Now ... as long as hes doing what hes doing ... THERE DOOMED!!!!!
Jerry and Danny are FACTUAL PROOF THAT HANDS ON OWNERS DON'T WORK!!!!
I would much rather have an owner like Randy that hired his football people and left them alone then the type of owner I think the DA is gonna be .... now let READ WHAT I SAID ... I did not endorse Randy as owner ... he was to hands off ... like he didn't really care .. that's not good either .. but given the two evils i'll take the aloof approach over the I know more than U and its my ball so were playing by my rules or I'm gonna take my ball home and fire U approach ...
and save the he wasn't hands on last year crap ... cause that's all it is is crap ... the man was busy bribing and firing to hopefully save himself from doing any time .... gee .. I wonder if he knew about the rebate scam ... ...
sheesh .. I haven't even thought about that .. I'm suppose to believe and trust this guy .. OMG ... why the hell would I believe this dude ... *LOL* .. that makes all the excuses for him even funnier ... man I hope COLORED BLIND ISN'T READING THIS ... it may kill him of embarrassment ..
On to us ... what do we have .... so far as far as I can tell we have a HOT HEADED IRON FISTED BULLY WITH A HORRIBLE TEMPER running the show ... and now ... as far as I can tell he's going to be crawling up all there asses .... ya ... that's GREAT ....
Look folks .. this dude LUCKED INTO chud (and by chud I mean Turner .. more on that later ) ..... and I think he may have LUCKED into a good coach with Pettine ... out of all the interviews and potential candidates I liked this guy as much or more than any of them ... and hopefully he LUCKED into something good with Farmer ... oh god am I gonna have fun with his name ... and oh my ... the Dumb Ass and the Farmer ... *LOL* .. oh the endless possibilities there ..
but the main thing I hope for is that we GET TO FIND OUT if he did good or not ... BACK THE F OFF AND LEAVE THESE GUYS ALONE ... LET THEM LIVE OR DIE ON THEIR OWN .... and from everything I've heard ... Pettine and farmer don't lack for backbone ...
I have MAJOR DOUBTS about the DA and what kind of owner hes gonna be ... but if he leaves these guys alone and lets them work then I will be less pissed at him if these guys fail .. *L* ..
As for the myth .... I have the Rooney's, Kraft and Mara in my corner ... U guys have Jerry and Danny .... TKO IN THE FIRST MINUTE OF RND 1 ....
Bro, you are the most entertaining poster on the planet. Seriously. I laugh my ass off every time I read your posts. That last one was freaking classic. Oh..........in case other posters don't understand what I mean by that............It's a huge compliment and not sarcastic at all.
I don't know what to make of Haslam. I loved him at first. Loved his fire. Loved his energy. Loved his will. Loved that he got pissed.
Now..........I'm not so sure. I wasn't happy about us firing Chud, but I could understand it and thought there might be more to it. This latest move---while wildly popular w/you and the rest of the board-----actually scares the crap out of me. He's freaking all over the place.
Bro, I am seriously wondering if he was the one who wanted to fire Chud and Banner wanted no part of it.
It bothers me that Banner didn't want Schiano and McDaniels and did want Quinn and he is out because of it. WTH?
I am not there yet w/you on hating Haslam, but I have a lot less faith than I did before.
Now.............about Junior. You say he was hands--off. That's true in that he was a quiet introvert who probably suffered from mental illness. He would interview through emails? LMAO bro...........that's weird.
On the other hand, that loser made more changes than any owner in the league. Fire that guy. Hire this guy. Give this guy complete power. Fire him. Hire someone else. Fire secretaries and gophers. Hire new people. Give complete power to the devil Collins only to take it back after people went nuts. Hire a new guy and then bring in the most arrogant man in the world less than a year later. More firings...more hires.
That's pretty hands-on, bro.
It's also freaking nuts!
And I don't wanna hear how he slept in Brown's pajamas as a kid. Heck, he probably still sleeps in PJ's w/footies. Dude was majorly weird and I'm glad he is gone.
Now, I just hope we didn't trade one lunatic for another..........
I was talking about Banner - I thought at first in Aug. Banner was said to have 5% as a minority owner but was going to be the CEO/Czar whatever.
Then when it all became official Banner was out as a Share holder and just named CEO.
Never read that ... about Banner being a partial owner ..... every article I read said 70% to haslam now and the other 30% at some point in the not to distant future ... not even sure where Banners 5% would come from ...
As for the meetings. No Haslam definitely doesn't appear to be the meek guy sitting back. But he is no Hillbilly and is a Business man.
He was in a meeting that - HE WAS NOT RUNNING. He was an Onlooker and yes owner. But he is sitting back and Observing. It was his observations of Banner and Lombardi conducting the meeting and the way they were handling the candidates. There is not one quote noted to be said to or asked by Haslam in these meetings. Its all Wisenhunt speaking to Banner. The other candidates speaking to Banner or Lombardi. Correct me if I'm wrong not one conversation was given credit to Haslam from these meetings.
That is how a Meeting would be with the Owner observing. I think he Absorbed and was rather shocked at the unprofessional way that everything was being handled.
I agree with everything u just said 100% ... every word of it I believe ... that has nuttin to do with how banner ended up here ... but its a good read none the less ..
Minority owner of the Steelers - yeah he had an inkling but chose Banner - do you think he sought out Banner or the NFL suggested Banner to Haslam?
No clue .. Nor does it matter to me .. Haslam was going to do what he wanted with his team .. he hasn't made that clearly evident to U in the last 6 weeks?? .. come on bro ..... its ok .. u can admit it .. we all know .... its right there in front of each and every one of us ..
Also possibly he had a heads up of trouble brewing with PILOT. So he definitely needed Banner to run things while he attended to his family business.
Lots of possibilities my friend ... only limited by how much your willing to overlook and/or ignore .... the more your willing to close your eyes too, the more possibilities there are ....
Just for the record...I never had any preference of Hands on owner...actually I always thought the owner should have a Football Guy (which Banner is not) Run Things. His inquiry to Parcells was interesting.
as usual we agree more than we disagree even though we debate over those fine points like were polar opposites ... *LOL* ...
We had also over kill. Sheiner and Farmer gave reason to not have a need for Banner and Lombardi. These are guys he can have with us for 20 years. Can you imagine a senile old Banner running things still here.
we backed into Chud (Norv) last year ... hopefully we hit the jackpot again with Pettine and Old McDonald ... *LOL* ... man is this gonna be fun .... don't bother Daman as I could give a rats ass how childish u think I am ....
lightning very well may have struck twice ... U know what would have been REALLY GREAT though tabber .... FIRING THE DA'S WITHOUT FIRING CHUD AND NORV ...
HOW ABOUT THAT ONE FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I like Farmer I like what I have read about Sheiner. I loved Chud and the staff he assembled I didn't like the reboot but I also think Pettine can be a Super Star HC...and I know WE NEED THAT FREAKING QB!!!! and we can start the real Browns era....Once and for all!
WOOF WOOF WOOF .... LETS GO BABY .... here's to hoping my friend .. its carried us for the last jagillion years .... hopefully this time WINS finally push hope to the Stilers ....
Who is "HE" Banner or Haslam...I assume Banner. Thanks for sharing.
Banner. Oh and Rishz..like I said to Big Willie, I don't have a issue sharing what I find out especially when someone answers my questions. If U know things, hey that's fine , I don't have to get annoyed if U posted something in here that others might not be aware of..but if U have a personal issue with me, ya know U can speak to me about it. Oh and Vers...since U trying to keep it real, how I presented anything and how U took it are two different things. I said it was inside stuff. That's all I said. If I have a agenda, it's because this board has been my favorite since I joined in 2000..and I don't get to post much because of the stupid firewall at my work computer, so I don't know what everyone in here is privy to.
But like I told Big Willie, I'd post stuff that I find out. I don't have a lot of free time , I have 4 young ones to raise plus my wife works second shift 4 evenings in contrast to my job, so when I get a few minutes I come in here, post and go.
I don't have a problem with you Attack. I just find it amusing how the old guard on here always comes to the rescue of each other. You had people claiming what a stand up poster you were, and I thought it was important to set the record straight...not that you aren't are a stand up guy...but that you should at least have let people know its information you paid for...not because you knew someone in the organization. And let people know that it's information anyone can get if they are wiling to pay for it. To me that's a bit disengenuous you just let old guard carry on like that.
I share some of the info with others in PM. I am pretty impressed with the recent track record that the main insider over there has been batting recently. Its worth the money, IMO.
tabber, Vers, Diam, DAMN DUDES! This is feeling like the old days!
A fine example of how posters can disagree on specifics without involving personal attacks to add pretend strength to their opinions.
Diam, miss your style bro, but especially miss your take and the detail in which you explain your opinions without using a ton of words. Also miss your comments on the "dolts" in the "sea of stupidity" that they swim in. LOL But I guess it's best to leave that stuff out. LOL Still, there's so much of that going on here these days that I spend most of my thread reading scrolling down to something worthwhile.
I was glad to see Haslam rid the team of Banner and Lombardi. Never wanted either of them. Bought into them the best I could because, for me, it's better to buy in and try to understand them than it is to be a miserable fan. But I was still miserable.
Mad as hell that they fired Chud so quickly. Especially after not giving him and Norv anything to work with and then blame Chud for "not progressing". It almost looked like a set up to fire him but that doesn't make sense in the first season. The reason it took on a set up look to me is that the FO had no freaking idea what they were doing and they were way too hands-on themselves.
If they really knew what they were doing they would have given the coaching staff some support instead of cutting the legs out from under them. They thought they knew football better than anyone else and were out to prove themselves right on that account. They were trying to re-invent the wheel with their "consensus" BS. I saw that as more like a way for others to not be able to nail the blame on anyone for any dumbass moves that didn't work out. "It was a consensus, other people had a hand in it too."
You gave a really good, insightful description of a hands-on owner. So did Vers in describing Randy and his many moves. I actually thought I wanted one when nobody knew where Randy was for months.
Randy was driven by the fans. He got scared when the team was losing and felt he needed to make changes to please the fans. Yeah, he wore his PJ's as a child and was a big Browns fan, but he never noticed the workings of the "Modell Method" but it was ingrained into his psyche having been a lifelong fan. It is ingrained in the psyche of every Browns fan.
The Modell Method: When you're losing, fire everybody and bring in new guys to give the fans HOPE. If the winning doesn't start happening right away fire them too and re-create that HOPE. Modell ran this team by feeding the fans HOPE. We lived and breathed on that HOPE. There was always HOPE. Just as the Draft has become the biggest part of the season for us Browns fans because of the HOPE we get in bringing in new players, bringing in new coaches also brings us HOPE so we starve for it every two years. We've been fed HOPE for so long I think most fans want that HOPE rather than wins because they know HOPE feels good, they have no idea what winning feels like.
Randy ran this team in that same method. Instill new HOPE but when the winning didn't come right away and the HOPE diminished he jumped in and created more HOPE by bringing in new guys.
NOBODY EVER GOT A CHANCE TO FINISH WHAT THEY STARTED. If they had we may have enjoyed some serious winning had they not been fired for more HOPE.
FIRING THE DA'S WITHOUT FIRING CHUD AND NORV ...
HOW ABOUT THAT ONE FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That would have been the perfect move in my opinion. I was so high on that coaching staff. Hell, for the first time since our return we were STOPPING THE RUN! At least very strongly in the beginning. It tapered off towards the end but was still a strength. Since when has stopping the run been a strength in Cleveland?! All that defense needed was a couple years to solidify and I believe we'd have been dominant.
We had two excellent OC's in Norv and Chud. They were both excellent QB coaches too. But the FO never provided the support they needed since they were already without a QB. A running back would have been nice to see before game 13! 2014 was supposed to fix that. They never gave them a chance.
Great to have you back posting. As they say at the end of the AA meetings... KEEP COMIN' BACK!
Quote: NOW onto the HANDS ON OWNERS IMO .... now were talking guys like Jerry Jones, Daniel Snyder (the old one .. hes backed off just not sure how much), ... WOW ... that's about it ... much shorter list than I thought ... *L* ...
That's about as WEAK as WEAK can get man.
Jones yes. He crazily acts as the GM Snyder? You even say he's backed off. I DESPISE this guy but I THINK you're grouping him in here because of his crazy FA spending in years past and the crazy RGIII trade? Am I reading you correctly on that one?
Here's another I know you would have added if alive today. Al Davis. He again crazily acted as GM.
Are you seriously concerned that Haslam is going to end up like Jones and Davis?
GET REAL. That happening is like any chance in hell the SKY TURNS GREEN.
I have picked up on that as well, the "clique-ishness". But you know, that's OK...they have earned that recognition.
I can visualize them now, on a hot summer night, sitting on a veranda in their century-old rockers, with a cooler filled with their favorite cold ones, reminising: "ya'll remember that game in '57 against..."
Quote: I just find it amusing how the old guard on here always comes to the rescue of each other. You had people claiming what a stand up poster you were, and I thought it was important to set the record straight...not that you aren't are a stand up guy...but that you should at least have let people know its information you paid for...not because you knew someone in the organization.
That's hilarious. Nobody claimed he knew anyone, he's just always been good at giving out information, I couldn't care less where he gets it from. I saw no need for people to attack him for it. I swear, posts like your's and the "clique" post after just scream "inferiority complex". Some people take things way too seriously.
Quote: Are you seriously concerned that Haslam is going to end up like Jones and Davis?
GET REAL. That happening is like any chance in hell the SKY TURNS GREEN.
Why in the world do you act like that is so far fetched? So far, that is exactly what he's looking like. He also looks to be reactionary with a quick trigger finger. That may be fine this time, but he's screwed up the beginning of his reign royally so far.
Let's just hope he got it right and gets the hell out of the way if he did.
If i had to guess, I would bet you're not as self righteous in real life as you are on this board. I think you're probably actually a pretty nice person.
Quote: ... posts like your's and the "clique" post after just scream "inferiority complex". Some people take things way too seriously.
Jules: I assume you are referencing my post. That post was in jest, to amuse. I assure you it was not through an "inferiority complex" as, although I've only been posting here for 11 months, I have known Vers, eo, and others since I starting posting on the Browns site in 2007. (And I'm not a "screamer" ).
Quote: I don't have a problem with you Attack. I just find it amusing how the old guard on here always comes to the rescue of each other. You had people claiming what a stand up poster you were, and I thought it was important to set the record straight...not that you aren't are a stand up guy...but that you should at least have let people know its information you paid for...not because you knew someone in the organization. And let people know that it's information anyone can get if they are wiling to pay for it. To me that's a bit disengenuous you just let old guard carry on like that.
I share some of the info with others in PM. I am pretty impressed with the recent track record that the main insider over there has been batting recently. Its worth the money, IMO.
Lets get this straight... I posted it for anyone to see, if they wanted more detail everyone in here knows how to use the PM BUTTON. Ya know it has been done before. This stuff about me knowing others in the organization in nothing I made claim to, although on that site I do have contact with a few who actually know those inside.
As far as the disingenuous comment, I didn't mislead anyone,it's one person who took it that way, then of course U took issue with it also..whateva.. so U wanna take that that level go ahead, U would be way offbase with that. Neither of you are calling me out on anything because I made no claims except that the info would shed some light on said topic.. If U wanna sumpton...last time I posted something and spoke where I got it, my post was deleted. So it WAS why I said I have to word things a certain way. .
Quote: Jules: I assume you are referencing my post. That post was in jest, to amuse. I assure you it was not through an "inferiority complex" as, although I've only been posting here for 11 months, I have known Vers, eo, and others since I starting posting on the Browns site in 2007. (And I'm not a "screamer" ).
I've been here since 2001. Much of the "old clique" even longer. Jules, Vers, eotab, Diam, Attack and many others were here when I got here. When I say here I mean this board when it was the Official Message Board of the Cleveland Browns. But when the FO started the DawgChat mess this board was created by Purp to be just like the old one. So I, and many others from the old board, refer to both boards as one since Purp made sure it is exactly as it was back then. (in a matter of a couple weeks!) We've had a non-interrupted run.
But I digress. Just because some have been here longer doesn't mean we know any more than more recent posters. But it does mean that we know each other better than do the more recent posters.
We've been through, in my time, going on 14 years of discussion, deliberations and disagreements. All the way to down-and-out dawg fights. We used to even have wars with members of other teams boards when they'd come here like Sparta to make trouble. We kicked ass and run 'em off. Hell, some of us used to scour the other boards looking for clues to pending attacks and we'd be so ready for them it looked like Devner vs Seattle. those were fun times. I'm sure any of the old times who just read that smiled in remembrance. That kind of thing doesn't happen anymore. I suppose it happened back then because the whole message board thing was so new.
Anyway, over a time span like that you really get to know people. Many of us have gotten to know each other through PM's as well. Many of us have met personally in the Muni Lot at DawgTalk Island. (the old board was called DawgTalk). We've met at training camp and at games and other ways.
A lot of us, in PM's, have discussed personal life outside of this football board and way, way beyond football itself. Family tragedies, medial emergencies, deaths of loved ones, you name it it's been discussed through PM's when folks needed to talk to friends they knew and trusted. That's a strong bond that doesn't get built in 11 months. Stick around.
All I'm saying is that the "old guard" do know each other very well, we've learned each other's personalities, what buttons to push, what buttons to avoid, their line of thinking on many football matters and their honesty/dishonesty in presenting facts and first and foremost, personalities. So if a more recent member who doesn't know an older one makes comments that are misconstrued, well, of course we'll jump in to set that straight.
Regarding the posting of information/facts, it is in the rules that rumors are not allowed to be posted. The rules state that if someone posts information that they are required, by rule, to refer to the source of that information. It doesn't have to be a link but at a minimum a reference that points back to the source. This rule stops people from "making things up" and presenting them as facts. That "facts" still may not be accurate due to the source being wrong about it, but at least we, as readers, know the poster didn't make it up.
It used to be that mis-information and made-up facts did not penetrate this board because of the rules. Really, now-a-days we have so many posters posting misinformation that would have had 10 different posters asking for a link. These days information/facts are posted and it's up to each individual to do his/her own internet search determine if it's true or not.
The rules also disallow links to subscriber information. So if you have subscriber information and wish to let others in on it you have to take a different tactic. You can't just say, "I got his information from...". Back in the day that post would have been deleted as per the rules. Back in the day the moderators were very often referred to as "the Nazi Refs" for their hard-handed method of enforcing the rules. LOL But back then the information on here was far more reliable.
Attack took a different tactic and it did make it look like he was getting info from a friend in the organization. (Actually, those kind of posts used to get deleted as well since there was no source credited and an internet search would turn up nothing). But with the more lax enforcement of the rules, as I explained above, the tactic worked. He did it as well as he could. But I must admit that since I'm no longer a subscriber over there I was wondering where this information was coming from.
Those of us who know AttackDawg know he's not going to just make things up. Perhaps that's one reason we didn't ask him for a link. We know there's a reason. Nonetheless, I, myself, was suspicious about his comments because deep down inside I wanted to know if he knew someone with the team. But you don't ask that stuff even in a PM because if one does know someone they can't betray that trust. I assumed I knew the source. I guess I just wasn't comfortable with the tactic. I'm still old school insofar as adhering to the board rules.
I intend to, Lord willing, and the creeks don't rise. I was a member of the Browns board, as I said, since 2007 and had several thousand posts. I left that board when it went down early last year. I do believe it was shutdown (by Banner?) for censorship purposes. I have no intention at this time, of returning.
I thought that I made it obvious that my post was in jest, just a poke at the "old guard" . If any took offense, my apologies...
I know I didn't take offense to it. And I've been around forever!
I believe more than anything, the main reason people came to his "defense" as was stated, wasn't really for the purpose of "defending him", as much as it was to attempt to "re-enforce his credibility" to those who weren't as familiar with him.
I'm quite happy there's some new blood coming here. While some of us do think of this place as an extended family of sorts, all families grow. I see that as a positive thing, not a negative.
Yeah I had to word it in a way so as not to get it deleted but still just give U guys some stuff to discuss. And anyone could have pm'd me, as some have before. But expect more..especially draft time.Lets talk more ball people..
Quote: FWIW, Attack has always been a decent and reliable poster from my perspective.
And that is why people posted to "defend him". So that those who haven't been around as long and don't know which posters to trust can find out. If that same post would have come from any of several others who will not be named, I don't think anybody would be backing them up.
so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
JH needs to go away for the next few years, fight the Feds and let his football people work...
so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
JH needs to go away for the next few years, fight the Feds and let his football people work...
He's fired everyone else, maybe the Feds will still yet fire him.
Quote: so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
I think he settles down a bit on the house cleaning firings. He's taken a lot of crap and I don't think he'll be too anxious to take anymore in two years.
But I also think that neither of these guys, Farmer or Pettine is his guys. Farmer was brought in by the two stooges and Pettine was "the best head coach available", as Haslem put it, and I took that to mean a very diplomatic way of saying, the guy I wanted didn't want to work with the two stooges I fired and so Pettine was the best one left on the board.
Farmer and Pettine are both going to have to have some reasonable success or I think Jimmy will start anew. At least with the HC position as Farmer played little part in his hiring he'll not likely play a very big part in his defense if he falters.
Personally, I don't see why they can't bring some success here. They both seem very competent.
clique??? lol thats funny oh btw leave Jules alone She's IN THE CLIQUE!
But that sort of is ridiculous I've almost strangled each poster...but after time we can't get away with some mutual RESPECT for each other. That's all it is...btw you forgot to add Pit...I think he's in the clique too...just a rebel.
seriously...Jules is as sweet as one can be in real life.
Quote: But I also think that neither of these guys, Farmer or Pettine is his guys.
I look at it like this ddubia... With Farmer.. He could have let him go and found his new GM.. Maybe he was concerned about it being to close to the draft to let him go... or the guy he wants isn't available... But I think he likes Farmer..
Pettine...If he wasn't his guy...Then I believe he would have given Quinn that second interview... Who knows really... I just think Jimmy would have gotten who ever he wanted no matter what Joe and Mike said...
Just like always.. we will have to wait and see how the two perform... Got a feeling it may work out well this time.
There's so many in that "clique" they can't be all be named. When I named some old timers I only covered a few that posted just above me. Saint and Pit and a few others responded. Man, me and Pit used to have discussions/arguments that lasted pages. LOL
Someone should start a page in Tailgate about the old days.
Yeah Deisel, I think it may work out for the best as well. Farmer and Pettine look to be a couple of tough guys. Hopefully they can change the culture.
Neither looks like a weasel and when Pettine leaves off those sunglasses he doesn't look nearly so much like Trent Dilfer as he does with 'em on.
so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
Hopefully Jimmy will learn he can't go nuclear on this organization every year and expect to win games.
Quote: clique??? lol thats funny oh btw leave Jules alone She's IN THE CLIQUE!
But that sort of is ridiculous I've almost strangled each poster...but after time we can't get away with some mutual RESPECT for each other. That's all it is...btw you forgot to add Pit...I think he's in the clique too...just a rebel.
seriously...Jules is as sweet as one can be in real life.
I am in the classification that thinks it's entirely ok to both like what Jimmy Haslam has done and also be wary of the man as the owner of the Cleveland Browns. I cannot say I am 100% on board with all of the decisions he has made, but this latest move gives him some cache with me. I am extremely anxious as his stewardship of the team I am a fan of and fear that his impulsiveness will continue, however, I also feel that his pride has taken such a massive blow that he can't fathom making more changes at least for a few more years.
Think about the impetus for this latest move. According to the reports, he was hearing negative things about his team, his BRAND, and he felt he needed to make a drastic change to ensure that his investment didn't lose all value. His attutude that the media created the tag of dysfunction also points to him feeling that the perception has been palpable and his direct attention was reqired to correct this. So, he cut out the last vestiges of his initial crew and started fresh. To think that Farmer, Pettine and Schiener are all on "borrowed time" is somewhat naeive when it comes to dealing with an owner that just watched his business get diminished yet again. To blow this up in even the next two years will completely drive the value to zero, obliterate his already tenuous reputation and kill any chance that anyone of prestige will EVER work for the Browns.
I'm certainly not advocating every move Haslam has made, and I have made numerous comments to friends that he hews a bit to close to the Jerry Jones mold for my liking, but I do feel he made these moves in a clear mind and with the teams (and to a lesser extent, the fans) interest at heart. Do I fear that he will be one that feels it so important to get involved with the day to day decisions? Sure, but I also feel that he could have possibly learned a lesson from this latest go round on the media tour and is tired of being crucified for making business decisions.
As for Farmer, I don't fear that he can't or won't do a good job. I have this suureal sense that we finally found our surrogate Ozzy here and he can do his job and do it effectively. He doesn't have the history of being in charge, he's a rookie GM, and Pettine is a rookie HC. However, I think most seem to forget that everyone, regardless of how the career ends up, is a rookie at some point. Paul Brown, Lombardi, Noll, Landry, Shula, Ditka, Parcells, Walsh, Cowher and Belechick were all rookies at some point. Same with countless GMs in this game. Even some of those I just named didn't catch lightning in a bottle twice, but the fact remains that we don't know how good one is until we observe them in action. So, Farmer and Pettine both have my support unless they do something to make me lose faith. Because that is a massive part of the make up of a Browns fan; faith. It's what makes us all excited, against common sense, around training camp!
When it comes to his relationship with Pettine, and whether he is a Farmer guy, is not a great concern, as I'm sure that even though he didn't directly inteview him, he had to vet him to a certain extent. For example, in my career, I have to assist interviews. I don't sit in on them, but these prospective employees will answer to me, similar to Pettine will to Farmer. However, I do extensive research on the resumes and applications as well as send questions I feel would be effective in determining the valditity of a candidate. Thus, I can draw some similar parallels to the situation that our FO is in. I work for a beer company, so I guarantee you that an NFL franchise takes that process to the next level!
Even the most strident Banner supporters need to admit that he wasn't doing this team any favors in NFL circles. If one believes Cabot's report, FOs across the league are now back on our speed dial, and we don't have a prohibitive cloud hanging over our player acquisitions and communication. While I admit to not liking him, it stems from his smugness and his seeming superiority in terms of football knowledge. As to how that plays out in a room of real football men, look no further than Farmers response to that question regarding Banner in the presser. I look forward to seeing what Farmer does starting in free agency and carrying on to the draft. That alone will give us a good idea of where we are headed, not his work in KC, as he didn't pull the trigger on those moves, he simply helped aim the gun.
In the case of Lombardi, I suspect that next year we won't see so many stories coming out of Brownstown in pretty much all situations. Notice this year how many stories popped up about the Gordon trade, the Hoyer situation, the whole Chud situation, and during the coaching search there seemed to be a different take every hour. I guarantee the source of the majority of those stories was Lombardi. His perch in the journalism trade earned him some pretty considerable confidantes and mouth pieces, and he utilized that to his extent. I didn't like the vibe coming out of Berea all year long and the national media seemed to have a field day in exposing all of these stories as the season drug on.
His track record speaks for itself. He has had serious difficulty placing talent in the corresponding holes in each of his stops up to and including this latest tango in Cleveland. The Richardson trade he (Banner?) made certainly looks great now, but it could have just as easily blown up on us. The Hoyer deal has yet to be fully evaluated as we still cannot be sure Hoyer is a worthwhile NFL level starter. He punted the 2013 draft to this year, and the merits of that can be debated, but to so nonchalantly push a full draft aside can't be forgiven in my book. He needed to give this team some building blocks in 2013, and he gave us a mediocre to below average draft class (have to wait a few years to fully eval).
His FA acquisitions can also be debated as they didn't live up to expectations. Note, I am not saying they performed poorly, I am saying for the money they got paid, they didn't meet expectations. Kruger did add a lot to the defense, but for the money should have been a monster and establishing team-record level numbers. Groves was pretty much non-existent. When it comes to Bess and Bryant, I cannot resolve the fact that the FO didn't do thier due diligence. Bryant had/has a heart condition that effects his reliability on game day and we all know the Bess situation. Regardless of whether the Bess mess could have been uncovered or not, the fact that it happened before we dealt for him and then gave him guaranteed money could not have helped either Banner or Lombardi's cause.
What's done is done. Haslam has made his bed and we can only hope he is ready to sleep in it. I, for one, feel that he understands the repercussions if he acts too brashly again in the coming years. He won't be looking at being called a stooge, he'll be looking at being called a murderer of a team that even the NFL and Art Modell couldn't kill no matter how hard they tried.
Haslam is not the Top Dawg of a conglomerate in Pilot by having knee-jerk reactions all the time. If he ran that business like that, he would have gone under long ago.
He strikes me as a guy who will give credit when due and slap your PP when you screw up in his business.
He slapped the PP's of the 2 people who were creating all the negative reaction to his baby (Owning the Browns). And he did it swiftly and is moving on.
I now see Haslam sitting back and observing where his baby goes from here on out and let's his football people do their thing.
The PP slapping is over. Now there is a calm in Browns Town and I'd bet virtually EVERYONE including players feel that sense of calm. The merry go round is dead.
Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
I am in the classification that thinks it's entirely ok to both like what Jimmy Haslam has done and also be wary of the man as the owner of the Cleveland Browns. I cannot say I am 100% on board with all of the decisions he has made, but this latest move gives him some cache with me. I am extremely anxious as his stewardship of the team I am a fan of and fear that his impulsiveness will continue, however, I also feel that his pride has taken such a massive blow that he can't fathom making more changes at least for a few more years.
Think about the impetus for this latest move. According to the reports, he was hearing negative things about his team, his BRAND, and he felt he needed to make a drastic change to ensure that his investment didn't lose all value. His attutude that the media created the tag of dysfunction also points to him feeling that the perception has been palpable and his direct attention was reqired to correct this. So, he cut out the last vestiges of his initial crew and started fresh. To think that Farmer, Pettine and Schiener are all on "borrowed time" is somewhat naeive when it comes to dealing with an owner that just watched his business get diminished yet again. To blow this up in even the next two years will completely drive the value to zero, obliterate his already tenuous reputation and kill any chance that anyone of prestige will EVER work for the Browns.
I'm certainly not advocating every move Haslam has made, and I have made numerous comments to friends that he hews a bit to close to the Jerry Jones mold for my liking, but I do feel he made these moves in a clear mind and with the teams (and to a lesser extent, the fans) interest at heart. Do I fear that he will be one that feels it so important to get involved with the day to day decisions? Sure, but I also feel that he could have possibly learned a lesson from this latest go round on the media tour and is tired of being crucified for making business decisions.
As for Farmer, I don't fear that he can't or won't do a good job. I have this suureal sense that we finally found our surrogate Ozzy here and he can do his job and do it effectively. He doesn't have the history of being in charge, he's a rookie GM, and Pettine is a rookie HC. However, I think most seem to forget that everyone, regardless of how the career ends up, is a rookie at some point. Paul Brown, Lombardi, Noll, Landry, Shula, Ditka, Parcells, Walsh, Cowher and Belechick were all rookies at some point. Same with countless GMs in this game. Even some of those I just named didn't catch lightning in a bottle twice, but the fact remains that we don't know how good one is until we observe them in action. So, Farmer and Pettine both have my support unless they do something to make me lose faith. Because that is a massive part of the make up of a Browns fan; faith. It's what makes us all excited, against common sense, around training camp!
When it comes to his relationship with Pettine, and whether he is a Farmer guy, is not a great concern, as I'm sure that even though he didn't directly inteview him, he had to vet him to a certain extent. For example, in my career, I have to assist interviews. I don't sit in on them, but these prospective employees will answer to me, similar to Pettine will to Farmer. However, I do extensive research on the resumes and applications as well as send questions I feel would be effective in determining the valditity of a candidate. Thus, I can draw some similar parallels to the situation that our FO is in. I work for a beer company, so I guarantee you that an NFL franchise takes that process to the next level!
Even the most strident Banner supporters need to admit that he wasn't doing this team any favors in NFL circles. If one believes Cabot's report, FOs across the league are now back on our speed dial, and we don't have a prohibitive cloud hanging over our player acquisitions and communication. While I admit to not liking him, it stems from his smugness and his seeming superiority in terms of football knowledge. As to how that plays out in a room of real football men, look no further than Farmers response to that question regarding Banner in the presser. I look forward to seeing what Farmer does starting in free agency and carrying on to the draft. That alone will give us a good idea of where we are headed, not his work in KC, as he didn't pull the trigger on those moves, he simply helped aim the gun.
In the case of Lombardi, I suspect that next year we won't see so many stories coming out of Brownstown in pretty much all situations. Notice this year how many stories popped up about the Gordon trade, the Hoyer situation, the whole Chud situation, and during the coaching search there seemed to be a different take every hour. I guarantee the source of the majority of those stories was Lombardi. His perch in the journalism trade earned him some pretty considerable confidantes and mouth pieces, and he utilized that to his extent. I didn't like the vibe coming out of Berea all year long and the national media seemed to have a field day in exposing all of these stories as the season drug on.
His track record speaks for itself. He has had serious difficulty placing talent in the corresponding holes in each of his stops up to and including this latest tango in Cleveland. The Richardson trade he (Banner?) made certainly looks great now, but it could have just as easily blown up on us. The Hoyer deal has yet to be fully evaluated as we still cannot be sure Hoyer is a worthwhile NFL level starter. He punted the 2013 draft to this year, and the merits of that can be debated, but to so nonchalantly push a full draft aside can't be forgiven in my book. He needed to give this team some building blocks in 2013, and he gave us a mediocre to below average draft class (have to wait a few years to fully eval).
His FA acquisitions can also be debated as they didn't live up to expectations. Note, I am not saying they performed poorly, I am saying for the money they got paid, they didn't meet expectations. Kruger did add a lot to the defense, but for the money should have been a monster and establishing team-record level numbers. Groves was pretty much non-existent. When it comes to Bess and Bryant, I cannot resolve the fact that the FO didn't do thier due diligence. Bryant had/has a heart condition that effects his reliability on game day and we all know the Bess situation. Regardless of whether the Bess mess could have been uncovered or not, the fact that it happened before we dealt for him and then gave him guaranteed money could not have helped either Banner or Lombardi's cause.
What's done is done. Haslam has made his bed and we can only hope he is ready to sleep in it. I, for one, feel that he understands the repercussions if he acts too brashly again in the coming years. He won't be looking at being called a stooge, he'll be looking at being called a murderer of a team that even the NFL and Art Modell couldn't kill no matter how hard they tried.
Nice to see you come out of the shadows, Wolfley.
I like to see Haslam put his stamp on the team. I don't think that he's going to blow anything up anytime soon unless there are serious issues with the team. These are, for all intents and purposes, his guys. They're the ones promoting his brand now, not just some schlubs that are there to punch a clock.
In regards to Farmer, I'm a big proponent of his. I'm glad that he withdrew his name from the Miami job. It meant that he was committed to the Browns. All things aside, he liked what he saw as the direction of the Browns (Pettine's hiring, etc.) and wanted to be a part of it. Now, he gets the chance to be a key player in it, not as an understudy.
I'm not a Banner supporter. I did like the moves he made in dealing some players. I don't even mind the FA acquisitions last season. While they haven't lived up to expectations (after one year), I think that it played part of why the last coaching staff is no longer here. That is, the coaching staff's inability to get the most out of these players.
Despite Kruger's insistence that he can be an every down player, he showed that he's effective as a situational player. Maybe he could take more snaps than he did in BallsNoMore, but he shouldn't have played as many snaps as he did his first season in Cleveland. Maybe they can get him back to being the situational contributor.
As for Bryant, he had early success and tailed off late. And there really wasn't any reason to suspect that he had a problem. He played all but one game in 4 seasons with Oakland. In reality, he probably could have kept playing last season, but they took precautions and shut him down.
It seemed to me that Lombardi was the invisible man. You knew he was there (the clothes walking around were the giveaway) but you never saw him. How much did he actually have to do with anything that went on? I don't think anyone really knows, including Haslam.
I'm not so sure that the punting, as you put it, of the 2013 draft to this year is really valid. The evaluations they made were that they talent level available didn't meet the level of the selections available. It's simply a judgment call. Besides, they took some players that contributed nicely.
It appears to me that Haslam doesn't take kindly to his reputation being sullied. I think that's the same aspect that he's taking with Pilot / Flying J and with the Browns. I think that he feels that he's been lied to by the NFL (Goodell & Co.), by the people he hired to be the caretakers of his business (Banner, Lombardi, & Co.) and maybe even by some of the lower level employees (the players) who are simply here to receive a paycheck without actually earning it.
Maybe he's learned a valuable lesson and that's why he got rid of some parts that he could and hired their replacements himself.
Quote: Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
Nothing to really disagree with here. What we all witnessed, I think, is accountability being meted out on a grand scale by Haslam.
true n ddubbia you are in the Old timer list don't forget the very Special Mac...lol
As for being his guys. Lets start with Pettine - It was Haslam who pushed for him to the point of insisting on him over riding Banner who wanted to wait for Quinn. So I think without a doubt Pettine is a Haslam guy not a settle.
Farmer - was interviewed for the Miami GM job and I think it got to the stage where they asked to meet with Farmer's people to start talks on contract it was here that Haslam had a long talk with Farmer which convinced Farmer to stay here to finish something he started. So again I think Famer is most definitely a Haslam guy.
What I hope is happening is we are putting together a LONG TERM FO young and football intelligent as well as excellent in the administration and contract department. GM and HC both young and willing to work together. Not like the disfunctional mess we had before which I do blame Banner cause he was the CEO and yes, I don't blame Haslam too much cause I don't think he had the time to be the Head. Evidently now he does but even so he still went and contacted a guy like Parcells. But what we put together now seems to a real good cohesive bunch a Gifted young guys coming into their own. Right place right time.
However how messed up it was before - I think its been righted. Haslam is pretty smart in his own right. He took a truck stop business and made it into a highly successful business. Many family business down fall after the kids take over - with our Haslam he made it into something bigger n better. So the guy knows a little something about organization and Leadership.
Guaranteed to work? We both know there is no such thing. But as much as a Homer as I am I truly think with all my intelligence not emotions that we just made our Organization into the best one we ever had. From Clark, Policy, Palmer - Butch, Garcia, Clark - Savage, RAC, Other guy? - Mangini, Kokinos - Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur - Banner, Lombardi, Chud.
The combo of Intelligence and cohesiveness just was not there in any of the regimes. Regime 1 - Infra structure from Policy was ok - Clark n others INEPT. Regime 2 - Micro managing from Butch and his little black book of HS recruits as our GM just didn't work. Regime 3 - RAC was too nice and there was a Power struggle with pres vs GM early on then RAC tried to make it cohesive but Savage was coniving and had his own agenda. Regime 4 - Kokinos flaked out on us within 5 months he was gone we could have had something there and this is where Randy sort of fired himself. Regime 5 - Holmgren did not work hard, Heckert was the best GM we had in Personnel but his choice of Shurmur sucked and Holmgren mettled enough to mess things up. Regime 6 - Banner, Lombardi, Chud - as it turned out they all didn't mesh even Banner's relationship with Lombardi soured as it turned out simply put Banner wanted to control EVERYTHING even what Toilet Paper we were going to use at the facilities
This one we got Young guys who are Gifted Sheiner and Farmer both here last year carrying a big load in their perspective fields. They know our Roster Sheiner knows our infrastructure and contract situations. Just for the fact that once the change was made that we started negotiating with Haden an Entire season prior to the current contract expiring was significant to me that these guys get it. When you wait to FA season you lose all leverage and the players will definitely want to see some offers out there even if they want to stay here - its like why not and up their ante.
But these guys are NEW and yet experienced. But they seem willing to band together and make this work. Its not about MY WAY - Its about the Browns which is the perception I get. They all will have the power withing their Departments but all work together to make it Cohesive as one.
Well thought out and put together by Haslam. Each and everyone of these guys are HIS GUYS weather he found them initially or not.
I really enjoyed reading your post, but I do take issue with one portion of it. The value of the investment.
This team has pretty much been dysfunctional since it came back in 1999. No real improvements. Never have answered the QB position. Yet at the same time, the value has gone up and up. I believe Lerner initially paid around 570 million. Yet his son sold a dysfunctional team for a billion.
With only 32 franchises available in the NFL, I really don't see any NFL franchise "losing value". I'm not lock step in line with all of your other views, but I like the way you presented your opinions.
Quote: Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
Actually, Haslam liked Chud. According to reports, he had to be talked into firing Chud by Banner, who, essentially, told him that he had several exceptional candidates all lined up and ready to come on board. As the process dragged on, he became less sure that he should have fired Chud. This was a large part of the disconnect between Haslam and banner and Lombardi.
Luckily, Haslam really seemed to like Pettine, and was the final word in hiring him. It has been reported that Banner wanted to wait for Quinn from Seattle, and that Lombardi preferred either McDaniels, (who did call to put his name back into consideration almost immediately after removing it) or Schiano.
I think that was Banner (and maybe Lombardi) who was the driving force behind pushing Chud out. It may have been the final time Banner and Lombardi were a united front. Haslam went along with them, they became disgusted by the way the 2 men couldn't get along at all, and couldn't agree on anything.
There were a couple of articles that covered this very subject, but it is so hard to find particular articles with all of the changes that happened this year.
Not to me but to the general theater...still excellent post and it mirrors a lot of my thoughts and fears. Even if I'm positive thought process I still have fears.
Quote: Just for the fact that once the change was made that we started negotiating with Haden an Entire season prior to the current contract expiring was significant to me that these guys get it. When you wait to FA season you lose all leverage and the players will definitely want to see some offers out there even if they want to stay here - its like why not and up their ante.
Is it a bit telling that it's reported that they chose to begin negotiations with Haden but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Maybe they will get around to it before free agency begins or they're not overly concerned it they walk.
As it happens, tomorrow, teams can begin slapping tags on players. Will either Ward or Mack receive such a tag?
Even though Mack & Ward are slated to become free agents on March 11th at 4pm, the Browns don't have to wait that long to talk with them and sign them. Other teams have to wait until March 8 to begin negotiations and can't execute any agreed upon contract offers until free agency begins at 4pm, March 11.
Does that say something? That they're not yet talking (or that it hasn't been reported) since they are pending free agents.
Would Rob Chudzinski have been fired if this shakeup had happened before the end of the season? Some insiders have told me that Haslam really liked Chudzinski ("Chud was Haslam's guy,'' said one source) and probably would have given him at least another year. "Those are hard decisions,'' Haslam said Tuesday. "I think we made the right decisions, we’re really excited about coach Pettine.'' Too bad Chudzinski had to lose his dream job in the midst of this upheaval.
Would Rob Chudzinski have been fired if this shakeup had happened before the end of the season? Some insiders have told me that Haslam really liked Chudzinski ("Chud was Haslam's guy,'' said one source) and probably would have given him at least another year. "Those are hard decisions,'' Haslam said Tuesday. "I think we made the right decisions, we’re really excited about coach Pettine.'' Too bad Chudzinski had to lose his dream job in the midst of this upheaval.
Mary Kay? Sorry, but that's hardly something to base reality on. A side note article filler from a singular and questionable source.
I'm not really calling you out on this as you provided a source. If it can be corroborated elsewhere, it might be worth considering, even if the secondary source is as dubious as this one. Maybe Tony Grossi can (or has) scribbled up something similar.
I understand though. It is Browns related and it's from a source and some might give it more validity than I give it.
YTown.........that article didn't actually prove anything. It sounded like more speculation than anything. Haslam's quotes did not give any credence to the claim.
Look...........I get that people need heroes and villains. They have made their choices on who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. They don't want to give the villains any credit for having good traits and they don't want to tarnish the heroes' reputation by assigning any blame to him, so they put it off on the villain.
Again, I understand it........but, that doesn't mean I have to believe in such narrow-minded thinking.
Quote: Yeah, the main beat reporter from the largest newspaper in Ohio just isn't good enough ...... I understand.
Nope. Not that one. She's only got her job because Tony Grossi fired off an unflattering tweet. And, in my view, Grossi isn't all that great but he's better than she is. I see better stuff written on fan websites like this than what she puts out there.
I'm sure that the 'inside sources' only told her, since nobody else wrote about this.
Quote: Yeah, the main beat reporter from the largest newspaper in Ohio just isn't good enough ...... I understand.
Nope. Not that one. She's only got her job because Tony Grossi fired off an unflattering tweet. And, in my view, Grossi isn't all that great but he's better than she is. I see better stuff written on fan websites like this than what she puts out there.
I'm sure that the 'inside sources' only told her, since nobody else wrote about this.
< right back at you >
You do realize that she was a beat reporter while Grossi was with the paper, right?
Grossi was #1, and Cabot was #2. Now Cabot is #1, and Reed is #2. Like it or not, as beat reporter for the Plain Dealer, she gets access few, if any others can.
I think that people dislike her because she doesn't savage the team when they feel she should. She will sometimes throw softballs at pressers, but I think that she also gets info few others do as a result.She doesn't back people into corners, and she is rewarded with items here and there.
I think that she is right at least as often as other reporters, and probably more often. However, in cases like this, we'll never know for sure. Haslam is never going to say "You know, I like Pettine and all, but if I had it all to do over again, I would have stayed with Chud." That ship has sailed, and all he can do at this point is damage control. Anyone watching his presser after firing Banner and Lombardi can tell that he was being extremely careful to be nice and complimentary to both of them ..... basically saying that they did their jobs too well, and thus had to go. Anyone who truly believes that ..... well ...... I don't know what to tell them.
I remember Grossi and the whole "Cower bought a house in Strongsville", and other similar types of "reports" that turned out to be nothing at all. Reporters do get things wrong ...... but in the end, I think that Mary Kay gets them right as often as anyone.
Quote: You do realize that she was a beat reporter while Grossi was with the paper, right?
Yes. I also realize that you should expect more from beat reporters than what she provides.
You get more insight from Cleveland BSPN Radio (WKNR) or CBS Sports Radio (WKRK) than from anything she actually has to say. It was Will Burge from the Bleacher Report (formerly with BSPN Radio Cleveland) that broke the Mike Pettine hiring. Not Mary Kay. Not Tony Grossi. I was listening to WKRK (via the interwebs) when he was on and broke the story.
Quote: Grossi was #1, and Cabot was #2. Now Cabot is #1, and Reed is #2. Like it or not, as beat reporter for the Plain Dealer, she gets access few, if any others can.
but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Does that say something??? Well it just might say it is falling just the way I laid it out.
Both might even said - WE WANT TO STAY HERE. But I think both are also saying...you know we went all this time without any significant negotiations. Its a month away (FAgency) might as well hold of on your contract offer as we will feel what is out there in terms of a contract...we'll speak to you before signing anything. And possibly they aren't saying that - But I betcha a pretty penny that their AGENTS are saying that. Its what I was talking about regarding Leverage. We waited this long (thanks Banner) we lost the leverage we had now its lets check out the best offers out there for our talents then we'll talk.
Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
And who the F holds the DA ACCOUNTABLE?????? ... U and guys like U that think this guy did a good thing MAKE ME SICK ....
You seemed to be THRILLED cause as u say he had the "balls" to fire INCOMPOTENT PEOPLE and he made himself look bad in doing so ..
Well good for U Jimmy .. sorry I didn't realize that FIRING INCOMPOTENT PEOPLE that u knew were in way over there heads and were GOING TO RUIN YOUR FRANCHISE FOR EVEN LONGER THAN THEY ALL READY HAVE TOOK BALLS ......... and that letting them stay on to 'save face" is somehow a SMART OPTION ...
WTF's next guys .. we gonna start rewarding people for putting one foot in front of the other when they walk????? ..
HE FIRED the people that had shown beyond a SHADOW OF A DOUBT THEY HURT THE DA ... they couldn't even get guys to COME INTERVIEW this time around cause of what happened in the last series of interviews and over the course of the year ... I MEAN THESE GUYS TOOK INCOMPETENCE TO AN ENTIRELY NEW LEVEL ..
I have never in my life seen so many coaches FLAT OUT TRUN DOWN INTERVIEWS (that's not even guys that interviewed and then said F OFF C-TOWN ... I am no longer interested in your CIRCUS ... ) .. GUYS ..... the DA basically called his own hire "leftovers" ..... CAUSE MOST OF THE FOLKS WE REALLY WANTED WOULDN'T INTERVIEW BECAUSE OF BANNER/LOMBARDI or the structure the minion DA's set up ...
u guys give him credit ... IMO WHAT WE JUST WITNESSED with the HC interview process made me wonder WHAT TOOK THE DA SO LONG TO PULL THE TRIGGER ..... this coaching search was EMBERASSING AS HELL ...
back to accountability being the "new word" (we've hired and fired more folks in the last decade than anyone YET U ARE CLAIMING ACCOUNTABILTY IS A NEW WORD ..... SORRY PEEN ... the NEW WORD around here would be COMPETENCE ... watch .. as soon as we get competent people around here there will be no need for accountability ....
back to accountability again .... why is he not held accountable??? ... oh ya .. that's right .. he needed his "hand held" and this was a marriage made in the nfl offices .. BRUTAL ...
LETS ALL JUST FORGET THE FACT HE WAS A MINORITY OWNER FOR 4 OR 5 YEARS AND DID NOT NEED HIS HAND HELD ... LETS ALL JUST FORGET THAT IN HIS VERY BRIEF TIME HERE HE HAS PROVEN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT HES GOING TO DO WHAT HE WANTS ... HE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION OR WHAT ANYONE THINKS HE SHOULD DO WITH HIS STUFF ..
ya ... ACCOUNTABILITY is the "new word" in c-town ... ..... as long as we DON'T HOLD HASLAM ACCOUNTABLE FOR SQUAT ...
the phrase stats are FOR LOSERS has a place in this thread ... but it has nuttin to do with stats ..
WTF .. I dare u guys to show me a WORSE FIRST YEAR BY ANY OWNER IN ANY SPORT IN HISTORY????????????????????? ....
I'll be waiting .. my guess is a very very long time .. MY GUESS IS I DIDN'T CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET TO FIND EVEN ONE EXAMPLE ....... and its not cause I didn't cast a wide net .. its because THIS DA did such a bad job NO NET has been built big enough to catch something worse than what he did ....TALK ABOUT A LOW BAR TO JUMP OVER ...... but I will none the less be waiting ..
and BTW ... IMO if he could have a do over ... we'd be w/o banner/Lombardi and Chud and Co. would still be here .. I think the DA got snookered by Banner/Lombardi into firing them ... but then again .. with his temper he may have been the lead DA in firing Chud .. I guess I want to believe my version cause I know in my heart that's the version that gives ME THE MOST HOPE ...
and Peenie .. as far apart as we are on this one ... I think u can agree with this statement ...
HOPE has carried us over the last 20 years .. lets HOPE that WINS finally push HOPE to the back seat .....
I really don't want to go down your chronological list and discuss them. We've been all over that in the past. But seeing them all in one place, in the order of their appearances, along with the short description you gave is enough to get the gist of why we've been floundering since our return.
You're right, every regime since our return has been a mess because of one or more people being power hungry or simply inept at their position. It's said that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. They reach a level where they really shine, but then that next promotion puts them in over their head and they fail.
At least with this regime Haslem has seen how the President and the GM work at their respective jobs since they've both been here for a year. He's gotten to know them well both personally and business-wise. So in that regard he's not gambling on them as he would be on two entirely new people.
I like Pettine and when I hear Farmer talk about working together he sounds like he'll be a very supportive GM. That is a very necessary part of success. I really hope these two work out well together.
I get it that Pettine is Haslem's guy but I don't buy into any idea that he was his first choice at all. I think more to the truth is exactly what Haslem said in the presser, "Mike Pettine was the best coach available". The best one available after everyone else backed out. I think whomever his first choice was was either happy with his current situation or didn't want to work with the Banner/Lombardi combo. It doesn't take a genius to see how unsupportive the FO was toward Chud & Norv and it seems to be a consensus on here that Chud was Banner's guy... in the end.
So we ended up with Pettine and may have fallen into manure and come out smelling like a rose. Just because some of the other candidates had popular names and great success with their current teams it doesn't mean they'd be a better coach. I'd think rarely do teams get their first choice.
I agree with your homerism take that this may well be the best heiarchy we've had since our return. I know I felt pretty good listening to Haslem's press conference announcing the changes because suddenly everything became clear as opposed to the murkyness of that Banner system. For me, the jury's still out on this new regime but it looks far more appealing.
The truth for me is I wish it hadn't come to this. It's a step back in my eyes. I don't mean a step lower, just that last season was basically wasted and the "here we go again" forehead slap I initially got from this was very disappointing. But now that the smoke has cleared a bit I'm fully on board. That's just the way I am. Better to buy in and try to understand what they're trying to accomplish than to pisss & moan and be miserable.
So I'll watch what they do now and try to understand their thinking. Even if I disagree I'll still try to understand them rather than putting up a big stink. (but I'm sure I'l complain sometimes too )
I really don't want to go down your chronological list and discuss them. We've been all over that in the past. But seeing them all in one place, in the order of their appearances, along with the short description you gave is enough to get the gist of why we've been floundering since our return.
You're right, every regime since our return has been a mess because of one or more people being power hungry or simply inept at their position. It's said that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. They reach a level where they really shine, but then that next promotion puts them in over their head and they fail.
At least with this regime Haslem has seen how the President and the GM work at their respective jobs since they've both been here for a year. He's gotten to know them well both personally and business-wise. So in that regard he's not gambling on them as he would be on two entirely new people.
I like Pettine and when I hear Farmer talk about working together he sounds like he'll be a very supportive GM. That is a very necessary part of success. I really hope these two work out well together.
I get it that Pettine is Haslem's guy but I don't buy into any idea that he was his first choice at all. I think more to the truth is exactly what Haslem said in the presser, "Mike Pettine was the best coach available". The best one available after everyone else backed out. I think whomever his first choice was was either happy with his current situation or didn't want to work with the Banner/Lombardi combo. It doesn't take a genius to see how unsupportive the FO was toward Chud & Norv and it seems to be a consensus on here that Chud was Banner's guy... in the end.
So we ended up with Pettine and may have fallen into manure and come out smelling like a rose. Just because some of the other candidates had popular names and great success with their current teams it doesn't mean they'd be a better coach. I'd think rarely do teams get their first choice.
I agree with your homerism take that this may well be the best heiarchy we've had since our return. I know I felt pretty good listening to Haslem's press conference announcing the changes because suddenly everything became clear as opposed to the murkyness of that Banner system. For me, the jury's still out on this new regime but it looks far more appealing.
The truth for me is I wish it hadn't come to this. It's a step back in my eyes. I don't mean a step lower, just that last season was basically wasted and the "here we go again" forehead slap I initially got from this was very disappointing. But now that the smoke has cleared a bit I'm fully on board. That's just the way I am. Better to buy in and try to understand what they're trying to accomplish than to pisss & moan and be miserable.
So I'll watch what they do now and try to understand their thinking. Even if I disagree I'll still try to understand them rather than putting up a big stink. (but I'm sure I'l complain sometimes too )
DING DING DING .... WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!
its not about the structure ... its not about who reports to who .... IT HAS BEEN PROVEN U CAN WIN WITH MULTIPLE SET UPS ....
at the end of the day ... its all about HIRING GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE and then LEAVING THEM ALONE .... we have FAILED MISERABLY AT HIRING GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE ....
the DA controls all this for us .. lets HOPE he GOT LUCKY FOR A 2ND TIME IN A ROW with a Coaching Staff ... and lets HOPE Farmer is who many believe he is ... if he got LUCKY AGAIN we will be in very good shape in a few years as this team has enough talent to be this years Chefs ... if not .. oh well ... lets HOPE he finds the REAL PROBLEM FIRST NEXT TIME AND DOESN'T FIRE THE WRONG GROUP ONCE AGAIN!!!!!
I was going to get to the "structure myth" shortly ... but what u just said about PEOPLE was going to be my main point in that one ..
Quote: but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Does that say something??? Well it just might say it is falling just the way I laid it out.
Both might even said - WE WANT TO STAY HERE. But I think both are also saying...you know we went all this time without any significant negotiations. Its a month away (FAgency) might as well hold of on your contract offer as we will feel what is out there in terms of a contract...we'll speak to you before signing anything. And possibly they aren't saying that - But I betcha a pretty penny that their AGENTS are saying that. Its what I was talking about regarding Leverage. We waited this long (thanks Banner) we lost the leverage we had now its lets check out the best offers out there for our talents then we'll talk.
jmho
Well, if they both said that they would like to stay here and I think that both are on the record of saying essentially that. I think Ward said so explicitly and Mack in his statement that he would give the Browns right of first refusal. That is, he'll let the Browns make him a counter-offer before he signs with another team. That doesn't exclude the Browns from making offers to him right now.
From what I can tell of Ray Farmer's comments, they aren't in the business of paying money to a player due to outside perceptions of how valuable that player is. They'll give each of them what they consider a fair offer. I'm not sure there is negotiating to be made with them. Haden, with a year left on his existing contract, is something different. Personally, I wouldn't mind letting Haden walk if they had to, but trying to get him under a longer-term deal would be alright. They obviously think he's worth keeping around long-term.
I'm not sure how Banner actually fits into the conversation anymore.
Banner and Lombardi has had a year to lock down 2 pro bowl players Ward and Mack. He failed!!!! That is how he plays into it! But, looking how dysfunctional the last year has been it is not surprising.
He should have these 2 locked up and spend his time working on getting new talent. Now we have to hope Farmer can undo the damage and get it done in less than 1 month.
Quote: Banner and Lombardi has had a year to lock down 2 pro bowl players Ward and Mack. He failed!!!! That is how he plays into it! But, looking how dysfunctional the last year has been it is not surprising.
He should have these 2 locked up and spend his time working on getting new talent. Now we have to hope Farmer can undo the damage and get it done in less than 1 month.
But neither Banner nor Lombardi are making any of those calls. That's Ray Farmer's and Alec Scheiner's realm now.
I agree they need to get it done. But, signing these 2 should have been done in the off season of 2013. With free agency less than 1 month away it is gong to be harder for Farmer to get it done.
Do you really think if Ward and Mack sign elsewhere it is Farmers fault?
This situation is another good reason why Banner and Lombardi are no longer running the operation in Cleveland.
Quote: I agree they need to get it done. But, signing these 2 should have been done in the off season of 2013. With free agency less than 1 month away it is gong to be harder for Farmer to get it done.
Providing they want to get deals done with them. I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe it is. Maybe they know how much they're willing to offer to Mack and will wait for his stated willingness to give them the right of first refusal.
Quote: Do you really think if Ward and Mack sign elsewhere it is Farmers fault?
Not at all. I just think that it could just be business decisions.
Quote: This situation is another good reason why Banner and Lombardi are no longer running the operation in Cleveland.
I'm neither here nor there on it. I've proposed letting Mack & Ward both walk if they won't sign reasonable deals. Get the compensatory picks for them next year (likely a 3rd rounder for Mack and possibly another or a 4th rounder for Ward) barring any big free agent signings by the Browns.
Man, we have had just about every single possible front office arrangement we could have over the past 15 or so years, haven't we?
1999: We start out with Carmen Policy and Dwight Clark, 2 guys from a successful NFL franchise. We hire a rookie head coach from the pros. Flop.
Butch Davis came in in 2001. He started out with Clark as the GM, but soon became Coach/GM/Lord of all he surveyed. He was good, until he wasn't.
In 2005, we brought in Romeo Crennel, then hired Phil Savage to be the GM. In 2007, we traded our starting QB in week 2 of the season. We won 10 games and had an offensive juggernaut. We then imploded in 2008, and everyone was fired again.
2009 brought along Eric Mangini. He was head coach, but he hired his own GM, then couldn;t get along with him. (sounds a lot like Banner/Lombardi) Then the big fat fish came in as President. He hung out in Seattle as much as he did in Cleveland. He spoke to Seattle media more than he did Cleveland media.
Anyway, in 2010, Holmgren hired Tom Heckert. Looking at the very difficult schedule coming in 2010, he kept Mangini. That was a marriage made in hell.
In 2011, Mangini was fired, and Shurmur came in. He lasted through 2012, when he was fired along with the President and GM.
In 2013, we hired a CEO, a GM who wasn't a GM to start with, but then became a GM ..... and a head coach.
11 months later, the head coach was fired. We hired a new guy, then, proclaiming that both Banner and Lombardi had accomplished their goal of putting great people in place, both were fired, and Farmer was promoted to GM.
Wow....... GMs and no GM ....... Presidents, CEOs, and who knows what else. (going from memory here)
I'd say that we've tried just about every possible front office setup here is in the past 15 years. Hopefully this new one works.
Quote: Do you really think if Ward and Mack sign elsewhere it is Farmers fault?
The excuse making has already begun.
Personally, I hope he lets Ward walk, but your excuse making is pretty darn funny. I mean, who has ever heard of signing your own free agents at the time their contracts are up? That never happens in the NFL. Never!!!
It should, cause like you say, we've had every other hierarchy combination and damn near all other people except these 4 guys.
I think it will. We finally got it right. Haslam doesn't need a buffer like Lerner did. Unlike Lerner, Haslam actually worked the business and grew the business. He knows how to make decisions. Lerner was like Little Lord Pomeroy or Georgie Porgy.
Haslam isn't going to micro-manage. Farmer is going to do his deal, Pettine his, and Scheiner his. One over football operations, one over coaching the team, and one over business operations. All three critical and different functions.
Some can call Haslam a dumb ass, but I like the fact he makes changes when he see what we are doing isn't working. Mistakes are one thing, but it takes a simpleton to keep beating their head in to a wall and keep thinking they don't need a hammer to knock it down.
Mistake are just like bad draft picks....I've said this many times before....I don't like them, but I dislike sticking with them even more.
Unlike some, I have the ability to move past mistakes. I can deal with that, but, some can't and expect everything to be perfect, just as it is in their life.
Quote: Guys, may I ask what happened to that "continuity" argument you were all going off about just about a month ago?
What happened to the "he lied to us" argument that you were tearing up about?
Just wondering.............
That's a valid question and I can only speak for myself. As you can see by my new signature I question that still.
At the same time, you already blew up the coaching staff which left the idea of continuity in shambles. So at that stage, if you're going to blow it up, blow it up all at the same time.
If Haslam had any intention of firing the FO, I'd rather it be done now in conjunction with firing the coaching staff, than wait another year or two and have yet another year of an overhaul.
Also, I believe not giving Chud the weapons on O to work with, then making him the fall guy for all of the teams shortcomings was a dirty move. those in charge of providing him with talent were just as culpable for the teams failures last year as Chud was.
So I believe if you wish to hold "everyone responsible equally", they needed to go too.
The book on Haslam has yet to be written, but Chapter One certainly portrays him as a guy in over his head who is scrambling. It's not a very flattering look.
Let's hope he gets it right, as he's not going anywhere for awhile unless federal charges rear their head (which at this juncture I'm doubting, though it remains to be seen).
We may as well give him the benefit of the doubt at this point, though there is a whole lot of doubt.
You see it your way and I see it mine. There were no major investments on the O side of the ball. None.
You hire an OC as the HC and dedicate your top 3 FA signings and 1st round draft picks to the D. Yet your O has been floundering for years. If that math adds up to you I won't argue the point with you.
But that math certainly doesn't add up to me. And if you are leading the game that many times, maybe your D should stop someone once in a while?
I'm not saying Chud was a great HC. Problem being, I don't think we had the time to find out.
This first year failed because Haslam bought in that Banner was going to be the positive force those who recommended him did.. No one was clamouring for him too be on their team or ML.. I do need to find out something I read, that JB has some stock or something in the Browns, don't know if that is true or not. But Banner sold Lombardi to Haslam and that didn't go well..that draft was crap yet they bragged about what they did. Just the way they handled business pointed to each of them having their own agendas.
There so many articles about all of their pasts that should have signed red flags..the main one was if Banner got in on the football side instead of sticking to the business side of things. He didn't and it showed.. Hardly anyone wanted ML..and even the way he was hired(can U be hired before you're hired????) lead to a lot ill will. Well it came to a head in the coaching search but the signs were there during the season..there were things going on that seemed odd to many of us..players being signed then jettisoned, not securing a RB after the TR trade,,etc,, Now all of this mess and it has made the Browns look like a mess. BTW I'm tired of JH's montra of the media is the one portraying the Browns as dysfunctional..he and his boys caused it.
Quote: At the same time, you already blew up the coaching staff which left the idea of continuity in shambles. So at that stage, if you're going to blow it up, blow it up all at the same time.
I think it worked out well actually. No one here hired anyone else. They can now all swim or sink together as equals.
My response: It should, cause like you say, we've had every other hierarchy combination and damn near all other people except these 4 guys.
Quote: What happened to the "he lied to us" argument that you were tearing up about?
Just wondering.............
The choice for me here is to move on or keep crying.
He did lie when he made an issue for continuity and then blew everything up in less than a year. So much for promoting continuity. So I no longer trust in him that continuity is as high on his list of importance as he insinuated.
But in review I'm not so sure he fired the "championship caliber" FO as it seems Banner & Lombardi saw themselves. When people first meet, everyone is on their best behaivor. It's not until you really get to know them that their character flaws begin to show. I think Haslem had seen enough.
I thought firing Chud, especially so soon, was a bad decision. I hoped to the point of believe that the Chud/Norv combo would have had this offense clicking given even an average QB. Also impressive was how Horton made our rushing defense a strength for the first time since our return. (credit to the FO also for FA acquisitions).
I also liked that in my perception Chud never had that "deer in the headlights" syndrome on gameday as did all our previous HC's. Chud seemed always to have his head squarely in the game and that was refreshing to see from my team's HC.
So yeah, firing Chud was opposed to Haslam's own continuity viewpoint. He lied to us. Firing Banner & Lombardi showed that he felt that he not only hired the wrong coach but also that the FO completed the trifecta of the whole damn mess.
Many fans had the opinion that getting rid of the coach you didn't believe in, even after only one year, was a good, ballsy decision to have cut your losses before things got really bad. I didn't agree with that at the time. But keeping a FO intact when you don't believe in them either would be contrary to his own method of cutting your losses. So at least he's true to himself.
Now, are we back to continuity as being important? I'm very wary of that. He could become, as Diam fears, another Jerry Jones or a Daniel Snyder which would actually be enough for me to give up.
On the other hand, he could now go back to his "belief" that "you can't build a winning franchise if you change your coaches every 2 or 3 years" and that "continuity is an important ingredient for the organization". It could happen.
As for what happened to the "he lied to us" argument, it's still there until he proves otherwise. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I won't be fooled again as I've lost confidence in him regarding his continuity statements. Now he has to prove to me he wasn't full of crap and he can do that by letting his football guys do their job. By giving them a fair chance to finish what they start.
Quote: Haslam isn't going to micro-manage. Farmer is going to do his deal, Pettine his, and Scheiner his.
I don't know where you garnered the confidence that such will be the case but I wish I had some of it.
You have explained Haslam as a business man and since you're from the Pilot area of the country you've seen him first hand so I trust your evaluation in that regard.
But this is football. A game of emotions. Nearly all owners are some sort of self-made billionaires and you don't get there by being business stupid. But many of them have made some unbelievably adverse decisions when the emotions run high. Being an owner of an NFL franchise takes those billionaires into a realm of which they are unaccustomed. Oh, they know the business side. As does Scheiner. But dealing with the emotions of their team puts them pretty much on the same level as the rest of us in that regard. It's emotional, tempers flare, changes are made, heads roll.
I sincerely hope you're right that he'll let his people do their stuff because all three of them seem qualified.
But Banner sold Lombardi to Haslam and that didn't go well..that draft was crap yet they bragged about what they did..
I'm excited for a three year thread evaluating 2012 and 2013. They both seem really weak at the top to me. I don't envy Heckert or Banner/Lombardi trying to get something done from their positions.
We really could have upgraded some positions that aren't normally valuable high in the draft like guard if we snagged guys like Cooper or Warmack in 2013. Or grabbing Kuechly in 2012. But in 2012 outside of Luck/RG3..the guys we were considering like Blackmon and Claiborne are looking as bad as T Rich right now. Dee Milliner was one of the more common choices for 2013 and he didn't exactly stud out last season.
Once the head coach was fired, continuity went out the window. I think that everyone would have preferred that all of the changes made would have been made all at the same time, rather than changing the head coach, and then the CEO and GM ...... but that's not how it worked out. At least in the case of Banner and Lombardi, there is a legitimate reason why Haslam decided to make the move. It is obvious that he gave it a ton of thought.
To me it seems like the Chud firing was Haslam going along with another's decision, and Banner/Lombardi was him making his own decision. Will it work? Who knows? Hopefully. No one can ever say 100% what will work ...... but it seems as though Farmer is well thought of and respected .... and that Pettine looks like a strong leader ...... so hopefully this will be a setup that works.
All I, as a fan, can do is hope that they do work.
As far as Banner and Lombardi, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I felt that they destroyed a large part of that faith by the way they (I feel) helped orchestrate Chud's ouster. I truly believe that they threw Chud under the bus in order to protect themselves, then, like piranha, started to tear each other apart as well once on the hook for their actions. I think that each guy tried to save his own job, and in doing so, each guy lost his. When a guy like Haslam is so far over the top when firing someone, it means that he is really ticked off somewhere deep inside, and is compensating so that he doesn't get started down the wrong path in a press conference, and start ripping into someone he is upset/angry with.
That's my opinion. Your's may, and probably does, differ. We'll probably never know for certain who is right on certain particulars.
Quote: We'll probably never know for certain who is right on certain particulars.
The truth usually comes out in the wash, especially more and more and things gravitate towards social media. Especially given the propensity to give a column to anyone with insider knowledge.
We more or less got the scoop on the whole Savage/Collins and later the Savage/RAC saga once the dust settled.
It didn't take long for it to come out how much of a clown and a loser Mangini was once the air was cleared.
We got a clear enough picture of the H&H regime fairly quickly, and were more or less privy to Holmgren's meddling in a pretty short time.
It remains to be seen what is true and what isn't in terms of the latest FO to bite the dust, but it will be clear soon enough.
I have a myriad of complaints as far as the new era of reporting goes, but the inside information does flow a lot more freely these days
Quote: The book on Haslam has yet to be written, but Chapter One certainly portrays him as a guy in over his head who is scrambling. It's not a very flattering look.
Let's hope he gets it right, as he's not going anywhere for awhile unless federal charges rear their head (which at this juncture I'm doubting, though it remains to be seen).
We may as well give him the benefit of the doubt at this point, though there is a whole lot of doubt.
I agree. We can debat this and that but none of us knows how things played out to cause the shake-up. I will say this, with all the tidbits of information, I am glad we made the changes.
How are Farmer and Pettine going to perform....who knows? All you can do is go by what you read, and so far most of the feedback is both guys will be good at what they do. I don't think that was the general feeling when we hired Banner and Lombardi. Both had enough history to bring some large question marks.
Pettine is seen as a no nonsense, though minded guy who will demand that from the players on his squad. Farmer is seen a rising star who understands the game and what it takes to be a player in the league.
No doubt Haslam made some mistakes. I can live with that because he has taken steps to correct the mistake. Only time will tell if things have been corrected or if one mistake was replaced by another.
What happened to the "he lied to us" argument that you were tearing up about? Just wondering..
No argument...I don't see a similar occurrence. Sheiner was here doing basically the business end as Banner wished to spread his wings.
Farmer was here basically at the Personnel end as Lombardi...well who knows what he did?
I see both staying here with CONTINUITY. The firing of Chud and Staff was a blow up...and the reaction was valid to most of us. This firing didn't come with a search and a new start...this came with the guys who were handling a very big chunk of the responsibilities from the two fired. Really the big change is Banner with supreme leadership to Haslam taking over the reigns.
But I hope that answers your question from the emotional outrage before to the reactions of the recent firings. And lets not BS either...quite frankly many really liked Chud and the Staff while not many embraced themselves to Banner/Lombardi and much much less now that we read a lot of their dysfunctional leadership. Possibly the guy getting hardly any love is Lombardi but he might have had a bit to do with the Chud Firing along with Banner so they made their bed.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how 2 people surviving their 1 season here and now stepping into new roles indicates that there's any semblance of continuity.
The Modell Method: When you're losing, fire everybody and bring in new guys to give the fans HOPE. If the winning doesn't start happening right away fire them too and re-create that HOPE. Modell ran this team by feeding the fans HOPE. We lived and breathed on that HOPE. There was always HOPE. Just as the Draft has become the biggest part of the season for us Browns fans because of the HOPE we get in bringing in new players, bringing in new coaches also brings us HOPE so we starve for it every two years. We've been fed HOPE for so long I think most fans want that HOPE rather than wins because they know HOPE feels good, they have no idea what winning feels like.
Randy ran this team in that same method. Instill new HOPE but when the winning didn't come right away and the HOPE diminished he jumped in and created more HOPE by bringing in new guys.
Wow
Pretty much says it all.
Glad I don't see all the jr. enabling I had to endure for all those years. That was painful..
Without elite level QB play you really have no hope. Bernie and Brian is it for the past 50 years. Not sure if all of you would even consider them elite. Bernie was for a few years. But, he took such a beating. Those were the days of league sanctioned cheap shots, and the stealroids were masters of it.
For those of you that are worried that Haslam is going to be a Jerry or Dan, I don't think so. I think the past year shows that he wants to remain in the background - he wants to be more like you describe a Rooney type of owner. I think the Banner, Lombardi, etc.... thing isn't in anyway the vision he had a year ago. I'm glad he got back in and made the changes he has.
Including Pettine
But, I do agree with the comment that it was nice to finally watch a team that could stop the run.
Ahhh............I get it. It's a lie when we don't agree and it's a change of heart when we do agree.
Why does this have to be a lie? His intention seems to have been he would like continuity. But...given circumstances that was not what was happening. Now should he have left it alone, just because? No, I don't think so.
Example: Say I've told everybody I know that I'm tired of always trading in a car for another one. This time I'm gonna buy one and keep it for years cause I'm tired of change. Well, I buy one. One year down the road and I already had it in the shop several times and now a wheel keeps coming off. So, I get rid of this one and start looking for another one. But....All my friends now start calling me a liar and said I was gonna buy just One More Car. But Nooo, I had to sell this one and looking to buy another one. Am I a liar, or did circumstances beyond my control cause this to happen? I'm with Jimmy on this one. He saw no win and made changes to get this thing right ASAP. I support him for that.
totally up to you jf...by the way what role changed with Sheiner the president? He was promoted to...ummm president.
Farmer by the way had some Asst. GM moniker to him. Not a norm pretty much a GM in training.
But the fact is Farmer did not have to study our players to find out who they are and what we need. If you cannot see the continuity factor its ok, but hope you don't mind if I see it
I agree and that's a good analogy... probably better than the one I was going to use about the guy who has been married 5 times and believed every one of them was going to last forever.
I just don't like people calling others liars. My Dad hated that word. It's not like JH just started throwing people out left and right. After reading much of what went on behind the scenes, it seems like he really did not have much choice. Who would want to stay the course with such discontent?
Maybe you don't get it because I wasn't calling anyone a liar, but was simply repeating what Daman said.
I do thank all of you who answered. That was nice.
Here is what I think:
Most of you who were freaking out and crying and whining about how you were lied to and crying about continuity did so because you hated Banner and Lombardi and were looking for reasons to slam them.
When the tables turned and those two were fired, you were not outraged that you were "lied to" [your words, not mine] and didn't mention the continuity thing at all, because you hated both of those guys and wanted them gone.
Basically.........what I am saying is that I think most of you were full of crap when you freaked out after the Chud firing and I think you are pretty much full of crap now.
Quote: I just don't like people calling others liars.
Me either, unless it's true. Which in this case, I'm almost 100% certain it's not.
I hate it when people change their mind due to changing circumstances or new information and then are called liars.. that's NOT lying. Lying involves the intent to deceive, I honestly believe JH planned on having the old group around for a long time.. I'm certain he now wants to keep this group around for a long time and I'm sure that barring something strange, we will have this group for at least 3 years...
This is just my opinion, but I think there is a decent chance that if JH had it to do over again, he would consider firing Banner/Lombardi, and giving Chud and his staff a little more time. I think firing Chud was Banner/Lombardi's idea, they talked JH into doing it, maybe to buy themselves more time, get a staff in their that they could control better, I don't know.... I think it was only after Chud and the staff were gone that JH really started to get feedback on what the real problem was...
Maybe I'm biased because I thought we had a good staff but a very questionable FO... as much as I tried to convince myself and others that it would work out.
Quote: Most of you who were freaking out and crying and whining about how you were lied to and crying about continuity did so because you hated Banner and Lombardi and were looking for reasons to slam them.
When the tables turned and those two were fired, you were not outraged that you were "lied to" [your words, not mine] and didn't mention the continuity thing at all, because you hated both of those guys and wanted them gone.
My perspective is a little different than yours. When Chud was fired continuity was lost. Kinda like losing virginity. But by the time Banner & Lombardi were fired there were no cries of losing continuity because there was no continuity. It had already been screwed.
So, there is absolutely no value to the personal feelings posters had in regards to Banner and Lombardi?
You know what, bro............I will let this go and perhaps I should have never brought it up, but to paraphrase MLK, to ignore is to advocate.
I just found the treatment of the FO to be incredibly unfair and biased. Now, I will allow you guys to have this thread back, so you can celebrate the firing of two men and tell yourselves that we are in such better hands.
No, what I said was I would not spend my money again on this team until they started winning. I also said I would not be around as much but that I would still drop in occasionally.
But I must say I find that getting rid of Lombardi may have softened my position. I always thought he was more of a Belichick butt-boy than a FO guy. And by that I mean I think he'd have done anything, including screwing the Browns, to impress Billy B. Plus I have no doubt he was feeding Bill as much info as he could whenever he could.
Banner I could have lived with as long as Haslam reigned in his power. But I'm certainly not sad that he's gone. Guys that always think they're the smartest guy in the room seldom are. And the "cap guru" tagline is really kinda worthless. I'm betting that with a week to study all the cap rules and some research on past contracts you or I could become a "cap guru".
Quote: So, there is absolutely no value to the personal feelings posters had in regards to Banner and Lombardi?
I didn't say that Vers, nor did I allude to it.
We were addressing continuity. Once you spoil continuity you cannot spoil it again until it has developed. Continuity certainly didn't develop between December and February.
Maybe you and I are viewing it from two different perspectives. I viewed continuity as the football side of the business continuing over a period of time, hopefully long enough to build a winning organization.
I think you are breaking it down into two parts: continuity in the FO/continuity in the coaching staff. Looking at it In that regard I guess you're right.
Losing the coaching staff for "lack of progress" bummed me out because I liked that coaching staff. They are the ones relating directly to the players. Changing that changes everything from an "on the field" perspective.
I wasn't bummed when the FO was let go because I felt that the continuity, from my perspective, had already been broken and that the FO played a huge role in the "lack of progress" for which the HC was fired and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
So in the end, once I really think about it, I guess I didn't bitch about firing the FO or losing the continuity of the FO because I didn't like their methods and that they played a major role in the reasons cited for why the coaching staff was let go.
(Yes, I know that technically the only one who was fired was the HC, but if anyone thinks Norv and Horton were willing to stick around and deal with the FO that played him dirty, and Norv had plenty to say about that in the aftermath, I think they're fooling themselves.)
I felt that if we're going to start over by ridding ourselves of people detrimental to the team then lets rid ourselves of all those people detrimental to the team.
Now they are all gone.
I feel better that it was done in fairness with all involved in the mess were let go rather than keeping half the mess to continue.
Quote: totally up to you jf...by the way what role changed with Sheiner the president? He was promoted to...ummm president.
Farmer by the way had some Asst. GM moniker to him. Not a norm pretty much a GM in training.
But the fact is Farmer did not have to study our players to find out who they are and what we need. If you cannot see the continuity factor its ok, but hope you don't mind if I see it
I just think continuity means more than promoting two first year employees who managed to survive another purge. I know you like to keep a positive outlook on things, but I'm having a hard time with the current situation. We have another new inexperienced coaching staff along with an inexperienced gm. There's nothing different about this crew going into this season than what we've had in the past. I really had my hopes up that we were finally on the road to some stability with Chud and Norv, but low and behold we have another total rebuild. I will not be optimistic until I see numbers in the W column.
Quote: From your posts, I presume that you and bleeds were NOT calling Haslam a liar after Chud was fired?
Any reason why you two didn't call out the huge numbers of posters who did call him a liar at the time?
I don't have the history, maybe somebody wants to look it up.. my opinion, and I'm pretty sure I said something to this effect, was that I didn't think he was lying... I was shocked at first, came to grips and understood it, and moved on...
I will call people out from time to time if they say something I believe is untrue, but I'm not going to make it a point to say it to every single person who agrees with them.. No point in that..
I really had my hopes up that we were finally on the road to some stability with Chud and Norv,
I know thats what is eating you...me too and Diam and probably several other dawgs. I try not to think about it cause it makes me angry still. But positive spin has nothing to do with my feelings that we didn't change much as far as continuity within the FO...except for me mad it better.
Cause the two at the top were really dysfunctional. They didn't know how to conduct interviews, work with a HC. Become a team. So that part is GONE! What remains is the Business end is still here still President. The GM/Personnel end is still here and went from asst. GM to GM.
Yest the blow up was in December when Chud got fired. But now we have to separate that and look at the current move. In comparison it gives continuity as much as you can have when two months ago you changed everything regarding the TEAM end.
Although the two top nuts were let go the two guys who replaced them are not new to the organization. To me it's nothing more than a slip and a stagger. I think it will quickly get on track and be better due to the purge of a couple of guys who were inept in their respective positions.
I am sorry we lost our cap guru and wheeler-dealer we had in Banner. If he'd have stayed out of the football side I'm sure I'd have been very happy with him.
Quote: I just don't like people calling others liars.
Me either, unless it's true. Which in this case, I'm almost 100% certain it's not.
I hate it when people change their mind due to changing circumstances or new information and then are called liars.. that's NOT lying. Lying involves the intent to deceive, I honestly believe JH planned on having the old group around for a long time.. I'm certain he now wants to keep this group around for a long time and I'm sure that barring something strange, we will have this group for at least 3 years...
This is just my opinion, but I think there is a decent chance that if JH had it to do over again, he would consider firing Banner/Lombardi, and giving Chud and his staff a little more time. I think firing Chud was Banner/Lombardi's idea, they talked JH into doing it, maybe to buy themselves more time, get a staff in their that they could control better, I don't know.... I think it was only after Chud and the staff were gone that JH really started to get feedback on what the real problem was...
Maybe I'm biased because I thought we had a good staff but a very questionable FO... as much as I tried to convince myself and others that it would work out.
Things change, with that, beliefs are altered.
I felt that after firing Chud and then allowing his staff to leave after saying he was in this for the long haul and wanted to build for the future (which Turner called him on), I felt as if it was a knee jerk reaction and that he basically lied to us. He just wasn't honest.
And yeah, I was vocal about it and I don't feel the least little bit ashamed about my beliefs.
But, I'm beginning to see a change. It was VERY clear to me after watching the Presser where Banner and Haslam were addressing the Chud Firing. I said it then and I'll repeat it, Haslam wasn't his generally comfortable self in that presser. He was twitchy and figgety.. I think the "Three Stooges" comment really brought out (as incorrect as I think it was to do that) the basic feelings the fans had.
Personally, I think (believe) JH saw that and didn't like it and realized that some of the problem was sitting right next to him.
I will never know (as none of us will) the entire truth as to what happened with Banner and Lombardi, there is a ton of speculation out there. But I don't know what's true.
But what is apparent is that there was a disconnect between Banner/Lombardi and Haslam. And Haslam ended it.
So while I felt he lied or misled us, I feel as if he figured something out and made the changes he felt he needed to make.
I applaud him. Finally, we got the BOLD that we were promised..
As for Vers, he's just ticked off that his boy Banner was booted. that's the only reason he brought that up the way he did. And pretty much the reason for his bashing of Farmer who's credentials are better than Lombardi and Banner on the football side and are as good as Ozzie Newsomes when he became the GM of the Ravens.
Let me say this so everyone knows it: I reserve the right to change my mind as circumstances become clearer or change.
Vers. Can't say I was shocked when Chud was let go. The way this board read after the last few games, it would have been a shock if they kept him. I think Rish hit it on the head, when he sensed the trouble brewing about half way through the season. Maybe it would have made more sense to keep Chud and get rid of Banner/Lombardi, but I think we know how it works when you keep a coach and try to hire a GM/CEO. Better to start fresh. I try not to post very much just because of all the BS that goes on here. I also try to stay away from you if your in a mood
Quote: We were addressing continuity. Once you spoil continuity you cannot spoil it again until it has developed. Continuity certainly didn't develop between December and February.
Quote: I wasn't bummed when the FO was let go because I felt that the continuity, from my perspective, had already been broken and that the FO played a huge role in the "lack of progress" for which the HC was fired and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
So in the end, once I really think about it, I guess I didn't bitch about firing the FO or losing the continuity of the FO because I didn't like their methods and that they played a major role in the reasons cited for why the coaching staff was let go.
Quote: I felt that if we're going to start over by ridding ourselves of people detrimental to the team then lets rid ourselves of all those people detrimental to the team.
Now they are all gone.
I feel better that it was done in fairness with all involved in the mess were let go rather than keeping half the mess to continue.
I think that sums it up nicely.
While we don't really know the facts of the matter, basing it on what has widely been reported, I feel my worst fears about this FO were coming true.
You simply can't break continuity that has already been broken IMO
Who among us would have bet money that out Chud, Lombardi, Jim Brown, and Joe Banner ....... that Jim Brown would have the longest tenure with the team and Haslam?
In the case of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi...continuity for the sake of continuity is nothing more than an excuse to keep unqualified management employed.
In the short time that both Banner and Lombardi were employed by Haslam, both managed to do enough to get themselves fired...truth is, neither should have been hired and Haslam has no one to blame but himself.
In the case of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi...continuity for the sake of continuity is nothing more than an excuse to keep unqualified management employed.
In the short time that both Banner and Lombardi were employed by Haslam, both managed to do enough to get themselves fired...truth is, neither should have been hired and Haslam has no one to blame but himself.
In the case of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi...continuity for the sake of continuity is nothing more than an excuse to keep unqualified management employed.
In the short time that both Banner and Lombardi were employed by Haslam, both managed to do enough to get themselves fired...truth is, neither should have been hired and Haslam has no one to blame but himself.
Nothing worse that an incompetent billionaire...
Why don't we just move forward......
As of now, "incompetent" is a label that Haslam earned and must wear until he proves to be competent, as an NFL owner.
IMO, firing Banner and Lombardi are the first signs that Haslam might be competent enough to own an NFL franchise.
In the case of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi...continuity for the sake of continuity is nothing more than an excuse to keep unqualified management employed.
In the short time that both Banner and Lombardi were employed by Haslam, both managed to do enough to get themselves fired...truth is, neither should have been hired and Haslam has no one to blame but himself.
Nothing worse that an incompetent billionaire...
Why don't we just move forward......
As of now, "incompetent" is a label that Haslam earned and must wear until he proves to be competent, as an NFL owner.
IMO, firing Banner and Lombardi are the first signs that Haslam might be competent enough to own an NFL franchise.
Well.. you're entitled to your opinion.. as I am mine....
Yes, he should really listen to those who feel they are qualified to tell others what to post and what not to post. Such censorship has always been an admirable quality.
Goes right along with how Bill B. would hire guys before the end of season to get an edge. Gotta hand it to him. Haslam pays Lombardi to asess players for 8 months and Bill gets all the info for next to nothing.
laird...I haven't posted much in the last 4 months and for the most part have just watched this thread as some make excuses for the poor performance of Banner and Lombardi.
...I just couldn't let the "continuity" excuse slide by without finally commenting.
I do understand that Banner and Lombardi supporters might not want to read opinions about "the firing"...but way back in August and Sept of 2012, I tried to tell folks what Joe Banner was like...turns out, Joe Banner was who I thought he was.
Haslam had to learn the hard way...you don't hire someone with a background on the business side to run the football side of your franchise.
In the case of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi...continuity for the sake of continuity is nothing more than an excuse to keep unqualified management employed.
In the short time that both Banner and Lombardi were employed by Haslam, both managed to do enough to get themselves fired...truth is, neither should have been hired and Haslam has no one to blame but himself.
Nothing worse that an incompetent billionaire...
Why don't we just move forward......
What? I'd say he shows a lot of compentence......the last one maybe not.
Like I have said before, I don't mind mistakes. Everybody makes them.....yes, even billionaires....What makes HIM different is he doesn't stick with a wrong decision.....I like that.
I like the fact we have a team owner who is active and insists on results and can afford to make changes in his desire to bring a winner. Randy could have afforded to make changes, he just didn't.
I cannot help it.
).
. If any took offense, my apologies...