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It's like playing Flappy Bird!
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I'd say DG should have bought the team 2 years earlier so that maybe they could have gotten Jim Paxson out of there, but we don't really know if Danny Ferry would have done better. His entire tenure was nothing but late picks. Although he did pick Danny Green who has turned himself into a really good player.
Considering how he did with his late picks, I thought he was a decent drafter. Possibly he takes someone other than Luke Jackson. He also definitively doesn't make that Jeri Welsh trade!
He might not also botch the Boozer contract too
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speaking of Bennett, what happened to his green light? since the beginning of February, Mike Brown had told him to take any open shot that was there for him. as a result, he was averaging alot of attempts even when he didn't get alot of minutes. and, he seemed to be much more relaxed and putting up numbers across the board with the freedom.
the past 2 games, he has only taken 1 shot in each. not big minutes, but that hasn't mattered lately. possibly just a blip, but wanted to make note before it becomes a defined pattern.
or he's been playing with a sprained knee and will now be out 3 weeks. ugh.
https://twitter.com/JasonLloydABJ/status/443078765338308608
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The national media loves them, it was a lovefest on twitter last night. Pretty hilarious for a team that will get swiped in 5 games by either Miami or Indy in the playoffs.....
The only teams in the East that won't get blown out by Miami and Indy are Indy and Miami.
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The things like signing Larry Hughes things just look terrible in hindsight, but pays no attention to what was going on at the time the deal was signed. At the time, Lebron was one year away from signing an extension or bailing to free agency. The Cavs were sitting on a ton of cap space and the prevailing opinion was that the Cavs needed to spend it, otherwise Lebron would see no commitment to winning, and leave for Free Agency. Unfortunately, it was a weak free agent class. The two best choices (Ray Allen, Michael Redd) opted to resign with their current teams, which meant the Cavs had to overpay Hughes to ensure that they would get SOMEONE that was considered a top free agent. They also picked up Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones, which were the two best three point shooters available.
It's also really easy to forget that Larry Hughes was coming off 19- and 22-point seasons in Washington, and had a horrible string of bad luck here…broken finger, 20-yo brother died of heart failure during the playoffs, torn plantar fascia in the ECF.
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Agreed ... even signing Michael Redd might of been disastrous in hindsight, as he started going through all of his injuries right after he re-signed that contract. The only Free Agent that turned out to be worth his money that year, was Ray Allen, and I think he re-signed before free agency even opened.
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jc
Flip it around... what has the Cavs actually done right? What have been the brilliant moves that they have made? I'd prefer to talk about the last few years but go back 10+ if you want to. Let's make this easy on me and omit no-brainer #1 overall picks.
What great moves have the Cavs made? Ferry, Grant, Gilbert, Griffin, whoever... they have failed.
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Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland?
Please enlighten me on what moves Ferry & Co could have done to land another All Star...
Did they wiff on some pics? Yeah... But once your winning 60 games a year hitting on the 30th player in the draft is just dumb luck..
So yeah, what detailed, laid out plans, did we not go through to bring specific talent here?
I'm not going to go too deep into this. I know there are always a thousand excuses why the team couldn't land players. I say that they just had to do their jobs better over the course of 6 or whatever drafts, free agency periods, and trades.... i.e. don't pick Luke Jackson, sign Larry Hughes, trade for an over the hill, broken down Shaq, etc.
If you don't sign Larry Hughes, then you are either not spending money or bringing in a guy like Bobby Simmons who also would have done nothing. I don't know why people continue to think that Ray Allen or Michael Redd were going to take a 20m paycut to come to Cleveland.
Like the move or not, which most of us in hindsight don't, Larry Hughes was the best option for them that year. Overall it was a bad signing, but Mike Brown did actually have him playing really good defense in that 2007 run..
The failures of the Cavs in the Lebron era probably rest on those first two years where they were still in the lottery but struck out on getting that 2nd guy.
And also, for all the talk of how Lebron had nobody around him, they did go 60 wins back to back, which even for a regular season accomplishment, that's impressive... They also had a 2-1 advantage in that Boston series after handing them their worst home playoff loss in team history. Then game 5, and then game 6, which people always forget, was very winnable, and I believe Lebron had 9 turnovers in that game. He also takes his blame for that era.
You will never hear all that from a national outlet, because they only see it as Lebron had nobody and that's the end of it. Just like how they see the Cavs as a horrible team but Kyrie Irving is awesome and needs to go. They aren't watching these games, because he takes his blame in this mess as well.
Pretty funny how the national media molds their stories and angles...
Here's the Cavs 2007 Finals Roster:
Shannon Brown
Daniel Gibson
Drew Goodon
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Lebron James
Damon Jones
Dwayne Jones
Donyell Marshall
Ira Newble
Sasha Pavlovic
Scot Pollard
Eric Snow
Anderson Varejao
David Wesley
Take away Lebron and that is an early lottery team. The 60+ win teams were better but I think they were overhyped to be honest. The national media was actually pretty generous to the Cavs at the time. We had the best player on the court, Boston had the next best 4.
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jc
Flip it around... what has the Cavs actually done right? What have been the brilliant moves that they have made? I'd prefer to talk about the last few years but go back 10+ if you want to. Let's make this easy on me and omit no-brainer #1 overall picks.
What great moves have the Cavs made? Ferry, Grant, Gilbert, Griffin, whoever... they have failed.
Not many. More recently hurts than the LBJ era only because we had so many high picks...
I really think for the most part Danny Ferry was handcuffed during that era. I really don't know what he could have done different. When we look back at the Chris Grant era, it's going to be really sad.
I think more than anything I'm disappointed with the re-hiring of Mike Brown. It reminds me a little bit of the Shurmur hire because it seems like in either case the organization did their homework. Say what you want about Jimmy and Mike Pettine, but at least they tried. This wasn't some buddy hire, they went out and did a pretty full search.
Mike Brown smells of a buddy hire.
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Who was the best player he ever played with in Cleveland?
Please enlighten me on what moves Ferry & Co could have done to land another All Star...
Did they wiff on some pics? Yeah... But once your winning 60 games a year hitting on the 30th player in the draft is just dumb luck..
So yeah, what detailed, laid out plans, did we not go through to bring specific talent here?
I'm not going to go too deep into this. I know there are always a thousand excuses why the team couldn't land players. I say that they just had to do their jobs better over the course of 6 or whatever drafts, free agency periods, and trades.... i.e. don't pick Luke Jackson, sign Larry Hughes, trade for an over the hill, broken down Shaq, etc.
If you don't sign Larry Hughes, then you are either not spending money or bringing in a guy like Bobby Simmons who also would have done nothing. I don't know why people continue to think that Ray Allen or Michael Redd were going to take a 20m paycut to come to Cleveland.
Like the move or not, which most of us in hindsight don't, Larry Hughes was the best option for them that year. Overall it was a bad signing, but Mike Brown did actually have him playing really good defense in that 2007 run..
The failures of the Cavs in the Lebron era probably rest on those first two years where they were still in the lottery but struck out on getting that 2nd guy.
And also, for all the talk of how Lebron had nobody around him, they did go 60 wins back to back, which even for a regular season accomplishment, that's impressive... They also had a 2-1 advantage in that Boston series after handing them their worst home playoff loss in team history. Then game 5, and then game 6, which people always forget, was very winnable, and I believe Lebron had 9 turnovers in that game. He also takes his blame for that era.
You will never hear all that from a national outlet, because they only see it as Lebron had nobody and that's the end of it. Just like how they see the Cavs as a horrible team but Kyrie Irving is awesome and needs to go. They aren't watching these games, because he takes his blame in this mess as well.
Pretty funny how the national media molds their stories and angles...
Here's the Cavs 2007 Finals Roster:
Shannon Brown
Daniel Gibson
Drew Goodon
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Lebron James
Damon Jones
Dwayne Jones
Donyell Marshall
Ira Newble
Sasha Pavlovic
Scot Pollard
Eric Snow
Anderson Varejao
David Wesley
Take away Lebron and that is an early lottery team. The 60+ win teams were better but I think they were overhyped to be honest. The national media was actually pretty generous to the Cavs at the time. We had the best player on the court, Boston had the next best 4.
It was a rag-tag team that benefited from a winnable playoff schedule, they played unbelievable team defense as a group, and Lebron came into his own during that run.
Say what you want about those 60+ win teams that failed in the playoffs, but that 2010 Boston series was on Lebron. He was absolutely horrible in his final two games as a Cavalier. Horrible. The national media NEVER mentions that. It was always about him not having a supporting cast, despite the fact that up until game 5, that wasn't an issue.
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They are doing the same thing with Kyrie Irving. While his supporting cast right now is bad, they are making it out to be like he's without blame, when he is just as much at fault as a lot of these guys. His defense is horrible, he turns the ball over a lot, and his body language at times says he wishes he were elsewhere.
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Sorry that we didn't have huge amounts of cap space and a bunch of trade pieces to find two other HOFers...
OKC did it right.. When they got Durant, they got rid of EVERYONE and SUCKED for 2-3 more years, and also happened to luck out with a late 20s pick...
We won 35 games out first year, and no less than 40 after that... In weak drafts. And weak FAs..
I don't really know what you wanted them to do... And I don't think you do either...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Sorry that we didn't have huge amounts of cap space and a bunch of trade pieces to find two other HOFers...
OKC did it right.. When they got Durant, they got rid of EVERYONE and SUCKED for 2-3 more years, and also happened to luck out with a late 20s pick...
We won 35 games out first year, and no less than 40 after that... In weak drafts. And weak FAs..
I don't really know what you wanted them to do... And I don't think you do either...
Well I wish I would have never mentioned the past era. I know the Cavs weren't in the best of positions with limited picks, not drafting early, and no superstar free agent wanting to come to Cleveland. I still think they did a lousy job with what they had, but whatever. I'm more disappointed in recent events. The Cavs shortchanged the rebuild and my opinion is that it had more to do with business than basketball decisions. It is what it is.
Someone else is going to mention OKC is a different context... that they became who they are because 'they learned how to win'. I say they turned the corner because they drafted 3 guys in the top 4 who are all better than our best player, and Durant is miles better. Most of the best teams in the NBA are such because they are carried by a an elite player or two who were drafted in the early lottery. Indiana might be an exception but I don't even want to hear about that as a team building concept until they actually beat Miami in the postseason.
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Are you saying the OKC guys are better than Kyrie.. Or LeBron?
Because Kyrie yes of course..
But while Durant may be able to score at will, he's still not BETTER than LeBron, and Westbrick and Hardly aren't even close...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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OKC is the team that they are solely because of Durant. And I still don't think that he'll win a ring there barring a talent acquisition.
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I think they win it all if they face Indiana in the Finals. Miami isn't a good matchup for him.
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Are you saying the OKC guys are better than Kyrie.. Or LeBron?
Because Kyrie yes of course..
But while Durant may be able to score at will, he's still not BETTER than LeBron, and Westbrick and Hardly aren't even close...
I was talking about Kyrie. You're not going to be able to build a championship team with him as your best player, not even close. That's the main reason why this push to make the playoffs has been so frustrating-- I thought the team's ceiling was mediocrity treadmill and even that seems to be optimistic at this point.
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OKC is the team that they are solely because of Durant. And I still don't think that he'll win a ring there barring a talent acquisition.
Not really gonna disagree with that.... so how do we get our Durant? The best chance for the Cavs in the forseeable future is probably in the top 3 of the 2014 draft... JMO of course.
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Easy...you don't worry about it. You stop focusing on tanking to get the next college kid who can fill up stat sheets, because the college game and the pro game are so different that they might as well not be called the same sport, and you find guys who are talented but who also work hard and are willing to be led.
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You should never go into the season that you should tank. Best case scenario, you get a 25% chance of winning the lottery. so right off the bat the deck is stacked against you. then if you win you have to hope there is a once in a decade type of player. We've won 2 damn lotteries in 4 years, that should tell you something how incredibly hard it is to have the stars allign to get your superstar player.
I hope they lose every single game going forward. the season is wasted, and I have no problem tanking right now. But I think they made the right move going after deng and hawes. THere was still plenty of games left to turn the season around, and there is talent here to win. Vegas had our over under at 41, the same as the wizards, and nets if I'm not mistaken. Mike Brown, youth, and not having enough shooting is killing this team.
The Thunder drafted durant, westbrook, and harden in a 3 year span. Not too many teams have that kind of luck and draft expertise to make it happen. More teams have flopped than hit that kind of jackpot.
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alot of teams decided to tank this year because they thought there could be 3-5 elite talents coming out. now, guessing which ones are the correct choices from the top10 picks will be the key. but, tanking to get one is not saying you have to get the #1 overall pick.
the OKC model is great if you can hit that many picks in a row, but the more likely route is the Chicago or Indiana method of having high picks for years and years and finally gaining some traction when that talent starts to gel together.
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I agree with the top 3, especially this year. But most years you have to get in the top 1-2, if you want a Duncan, Durant, Lebron, even Anthony Davis. If somehow they could end up with the 4th or 5th worst record, they would have a 30-35% of cracking the top 3. They are only 2 game ahead of the 4th worst team right now.
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most years I agree you need top 1 or at least top 3. i'm not so sure this year.
Embiid - thought for sure he'd go #1 overall, but the back issues with a center will give a bunch of teams pause.
Wiggins - Pierce-type talent. Easily could be best player in this draft.
Parker - unless, of course, Jabari is the best talent. He fills up the stat sheet much better than Wiggins and plays better defense, but isn't quite the scorer (though it's not like he cannot score).
Randle - remember him? Kentucky has struggled but this guy still has a ton of talent. another guy with so much potential.
Vonleh - another big forward with a ton of talent. potential for point-forward type player as he can dribble and pass too. and, he's a workaholic type by all accounts.
Smart - outside of the moment where he lost his mind (and he'll be docked for it), he's still the most complete PG coming out and can fill up the stat sheet really well.
There's 6 guys. I honestly don't know who will end up being the best out of them as they all have really high potential here. After them, there's another tier of really good players but not at their overall level, but, who knows, maybe McDermott becomes a dominant scorer in the NBA or Exum is the next Penny Hardaway or maybe that guy ends up being Kyle Anderson.
it's a good and deep draft. gonna be fun projecting some of these kids.
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Disagree about Parker being a better defender. Did you get Parker and Wiggins mixed up?
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Disagree about Parker being a better defender. Did you get Parker and Wiggins mixed up?
Wiggins has the athletic tools to be a better defender. But, he loafs so much on defense that it irritates me. He's always trying to play off his man and tip passes rather than guard his guy. I may be projecting those feelings too much though as I've seen more Kansas games than Duke ones this year.
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Sooooo....lose at the Bobcats, lose at home to the Knicks and then beat the Suns on the road? Sure, makes sense.
I guess the Warriors and Clippers better look out.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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That's why I think the problem with the Cavs is largely mental.
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considering that Bledsoe basically was giving that game away last night as he tried to "prove" that he was healthy and back, I'm not sure we can read too much into it.
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I saw he returned and that probably helped a lot because he was trying to do too much.
I didn't watch the game, I only saw the ticker updates throughout the night. It looked like the Cavs dominated in the first half and then kept them away the rest of the night (which is unlike this team).
I barely pay attention to the Cavs now, I'll check a boxscore here and there. I'll see a game where they lose by 10 and notice Deng scored 6 points on 3-14 shooting (replace his name with Waiters, Irving, Thompson or Hawes on other nights). I'll think he was the reason they lost. Ya know, "if he played his normal game, it should have been a lot closer".
Since Lebron left I've spent so much more time following the NHL. I'm not bitter at him, the Cavs or the league. I just enjoy the NHL more. I'll still throw on a Thunder/Rockets game or even a Heat/Bulls game when there's nothing else on. And when the playoffs come around, I'll be watching a lot.
Its odd, watching the NBA now feels like how I used to watch the NHL 15+ years ago. I didn't have a team, barely followed during the regular season and then became a huge fan during the playoffs. It's a complete flip of the two sports.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I still watch the Cavs when I can, but I struggle with the *cough* borrowed streams...
I really miss the Lebron days when half of our games were on ESPN or TNT, or ABC... It was must see TV. I don't think there's anything quite like the NBA when you're at the top, ok maybe the Browns...
This is the worst part of the NHL season... I think this teams are dying to get the playoff run started... Especially after a shortened year last season.
The NBA seems to enjoy their regular season a little more. I think TNT does an amazing job with Thursday basketball games, outside of putting the Knicks on too much... I love the double-headers.
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No but they had good ball movement, and deng hit some open shots. Basketball is an easy game for the most part. they have been wildly inconsistent playing the right way.
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jc
Flip it around... what has the Cavs actually done right? What have been the brilliant moves that they have made? I'd prefer to talk about the last few years but go back 10+ if you want to. Let's make this easy on me and omit no-brainer #1 overall picks.
What great moves have the Cavs made? Ferry, Grant, Gilbert, Griffin, whoever... they have failed.
They got and kept Lebron in town for 7 years ... which is no small feat, considering ESPN had him jumping out of town the first chance he had.
As I've explained numerous times, Ferry had his hands completely tied. I've never claimed "he made great moves" and I've always said he "never had the possibility of making a great move". Every time I've posed the question to somebody who claims he failed and should of made better moves ... nobody can come up with ANY obvious answer of a great move he COULD have made that wouldn't result in: A) Lebron leaving in free agency or B) Ferry getting busted for Performance Enhancing Crystal Balls. The only thing that remotely comes close to a decent scenario was the "trade-the-farm-for-Amare" trade with the Suns that didn't pan out because PHOENIX pulled out of the deal. Even that suggestion doesn't really work, because for one, the Suns nixed the deal anyway, and two ... considering how well Amare has done in New York, there's still no guarantee a gutted Cavs team with Lebron and Amare wins the finals and Lebron doesn't bolt for free agency anyway.
Paxson and Grant on the other hand, completely screwed the pooch. Other than absolutely fleecing the Clippers in that Mo Williams trade, and making a couple of other decent trades ... Grant cluster-fudged most of his draft picks by relying way too much on saber-metrics. At least in his case you can make the argument that he SHOULD have drafted Drummond over Waiters or basically anybody over Bennett. You can't really say that about Ferry, because he never had the draft picks to draft an impactful player ... and most of that is because of Paxson's mismanagement.
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I'd add in Ferry should have traded for Shaq the year they lost to the Magic in the ECFs. It was on the table, it almost happened and I can't remember who said no.
With a one year younger Shaq there to battle Dwight, maybe the Cavs don't flame out. And you could imagine how fun it would have been to see Shaq and Kobe in the Finals against each other.
Oh well.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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the one miss isn't completely fair to Ferry, but it was what we needed. that miss was Ray Allen. no, he wasn't coming here for that much less money, but, as we found out, players can force their way out of their current team if they so desire.
Ferry would have needed to get LeBron to help convince Ray to go that route and pull what Riley pulled on him a few years later. It wouldn't have been easy, but I think that we weren't underhanded enough in that process.
give us a somewhat prime Ray Allen with LeBron causing havoc and Z grabbing rebounds and we could have plastered together virtually anything else into a championship team. also, such a deal would have likely helped recruit more players. waterfall effect.
and again, it was not likely to happen and would have been extremely hard, but other teams have pulled off similar gets and that is why we paid Ferry so much $$$.
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Ferry would have needed to get LeBron to help convince Ray to go that route and pull what Riley pulled on him a few years later. It wouldn't have been easy, but I think that we weren't underhanded enough in that process.
Except that would be collusion, and pretty illegal by league rules. I don't think Riley had anything to do with the move to get Lebron and Bosh into Miami, other than to clear the cap space needed to make the move. I think Bosh/Wade/Lebron had all sort of colluded to join forces that off-season, but that was really just on them not Riley. It was just as much a possibility to team up in Cleveland ... it just came down to living on Lake Erie versus living on South Beach.
At any rate, I think you over-rate Lebron's willingness to help the team at the time. If you remember, the Cavs had asked Lebron to meet up with Michael Redd at the airport when he came in for his free agent visit. Instead, Lebron was a no-show and it left a sour taste in Redd's mouth. The team pulled out all the stops to wine and dine him, but ultimately Redd decided to take more money with his original team as he didn't feel like Lebron really wanted him there.
Anyways, if the only answer is "Ferry should have broken more league rules to get someone in here" ... then he did pretty well with what he had. 
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
except that it was explicitly reported that Riley in fact DID break league rules and colluded with those guys. it could very well be that it didn't matter though, I agree and already stated it was a bit unfair.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
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I'd add in Ferry should have traded for Shaq the year they lost to the Magic in the ECFs. It was on the table, it almost happened and I can't remember who said no.
With a one year younger Shaq there to battle Dwight, maybe the Cavs don't flame out. And you could imagine how fun it would have been to see Shaq and Kobe in the Finals against each other.
Oh well.
Steve Kerr killed that trade as GM of the Suns. Less than a week later, Amare injured his eye and Kerr basically admitted that he regretted not making the deal.
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Kerr ended up making that exact deal that following summer which brought Shaq to Cleveland.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Quote:
Quote:
I'd add in Ferry should have traded for Shaq the year they lost to the Magic in the ECFs. It was on the table, it almost happened and I can't remember who said no.
With a one year younger Shaq there to battle Dwight, maybe the Cavs don't flame out. And you could imagine how fun it would have been to see Shaq and Kobe in the Finals against each other.
Oh well.
Steve Kerr killed that trade as GM of the Suns. Less than a week later, Amare injured his eye and Kerr basically admitted that he regretted not making the deal.
link
Kerr ended up making that exact deal that following summer which brought Shaq to Cleveland.
That's right. Thanks for the research. Another woulda, coulda, shoulda in Cleveland sports history.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1 |
If you ask me, had we gotten Amare, I still think we don't win anything, and Lebron still bolts. Just my guess.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
I wasn't not worried about him leaving, I just wanted to win one ring before he left.
I think the Shaq trade would have done the trick considering how we lost to Dwight Howard and the Magic and then Bynum being in the Finals that year.
As for Amare, I never really liked him all that much. He seemed like a product of Steve Nash more than him being a star. And sure enough, like someone mentioned above, once Amare went to NY his game imploded (and his body).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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