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[quote I do agree w/you that he was better than any of his predecessors.
This a far cry from one year ago. 
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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LOL..... I always knew that. I just don't think he was as great as most people did. The FA thing bothered me, too.
Oh well, he's gone. I really don't want to bad-mouth him anymore. He did some good and some bad. Let's hope Farmer is better.
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Thanks guys for some good posts here.. I was getting sick of the FO posts and wanted to discuss something else. For a couple years now I've posted the three year grade thread and it's interesting to see the different approach that different posters take.. Some evaluate from a 'value' standpoint relative to what round / overall pick # and others evaluate from a "Did this guy make the team?" "is he a starter?" "Is he a pro bowler three years later?"
It's interesting to see the different perspectives..
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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I really liked Heckert but I do agree with you on the 2012 draft. If there was ever a draft to trade down and stock pile picks that was the draft to do that.
Just look at the wide receiver position all of the talk that year before the draft was about Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, and Stephan Hill. The best of the Wide Receivers did not get drafted until pick #45 Alshon Jeffries.
Doug Martin at RB was selected at pick 31 and Alfred Morris RB was pick 173.
Looking back in hindsight using the Browns needs. They really wanted a QB and some skill players. What if they would have traded back to Jacksonvilles pick who was in love with Blackmon and selected Ryan Tannehill at QB and picked up a 4th. Then at #21 they would not have needed a QB and then selected Doug Martin at RB. In round 2 they could have selected Alshon Jeffries WR. Then with an extra 4th from Jacksonville and then the 3 picks they used to trade up for TRich a 5th, 6th, and 7th there would have been planty of ammo to get back up in top 3 rounds to get more players.
I guess it is always easier to look back than be in the moment. I am a huge fan of trading back and aquiring more picks than trading up and surrendering picks. The best teams trade back year after year.
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Quote:
I am a huge fan of trading back and aquiring more picks than trading up and surrendering picks.
Me too, but not this year. 
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Does anyone know a website that grades drafts a few years after they are finished?
I'd like to see how our 2011 draft stacks up with the rest of the league.
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Your logic is flawed on that one.
Perhaps, but we all have our own logic when applying an arbitrary grade to a player.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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*Cue Django to explain Value
#gmstrong
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His 2011 draft would be considered an overall success based on guys like Skrine and Cameron becoming starters in spite of where they were drafted. Little IMHO is a bust. He not only hasn't developed into a starter, he's failed to make an impact as a sub-package player.
And while it's clearly going against the adoration of the guy, I think Taylor is vastly over-rated by Browns fans. He's been a decent player with short bursts of great play but longer stretches of little impact. Versatility, great size, great strength, and a menacing look doesn't make a player great. His lack of rush-ability has been a disappointment.
In 3 seasons he's registered exactly 1 forced fumble. Since his rookie season he's had 3 sacks. He's been decent against the run but far from dominant and saw his snaps reduced last season.
People won't like to read this, but 2014 is a make-or-break season for Taylor.
I need to start asking what your criteria for certain positions are. I'm starting to think you have insane expectations from certain positions.
I suppose if you're perfectly content with 7 sacks and 1 forced fumble in 3 seasons then we are going to have two very different "expectations" from certain positions. I also don't expect the 21st player taken in any draft to be taken off the field on passing downs if he's a D-lineman.
Frankly, I think it's more than fair to question just how good Taylor has been for this team. Likeable? Yeah. Productive to his draft position? I don't think so. He's trending towards being a 2-down player.
Setting all that aside, 2014 is Taylor's walk-year. Has there been loud noise from anyone in the media or from the organization stating that it's imperative to lock him down to a new contract? I haven't heard any of that. If you don't want a really good, young player to leave you lock him up before he gets to the end of his contract.
Taylor hasn't been as good as people around here believe him to be. There's still potential there, but he was never a good rush-player, and likely never will be. He's had some injuries and while versatile, he's not excellent at either NT, DT, or DE.
If Taylor gives the same production in 2014 as he did in 2013 I think he's allowed to go elsewhere. It's not too late for him but he's reached a crossroads kinda season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Is it fair to judge a nose tackle by sacks?
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1
21
Phil Taylor
DTBaylor
Solid pick. Taylor is just short of pro-bowl type play. I don't need 1st rounders to become superstars. I just need them to be very good players, and Taylor is that.
2
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Jabaal Sheard
DEPittsburgh
Solid player but possibly a bit overrated, but again, he is a solid pick. No beefs here.
2
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Greg Little
WRNorth Carolina
I wouldn't call him a bust. He has given us some production, but he is replaceable.
4
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Jordan Cameron
TEUSC
What can you say.....a gem from the middle rounds....excellent pick.
4
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Owen Marecic
FBStanford
Total bust. The guy was a crappy fullback. You can find decent fullbacks as UDFA, or maybe 7th round. That pick hurt.
5
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Buster Skrine
CBChattanooga
Nice pick. Buster is a decent player who has gotten better each year so he may still have room to improve. Solid value out of the 5th round. That's all you can really hope to find in that slot.
5
150
Jason Pinkston
OTPittsburgh
Not good. He helps disprove you can pluck guards out of the latter rounds. He might linger around the league for a few more years since he now has some experience, but he is a weak back-up player.
7
248
Eric Hagg
SNebraska
He was a 7th rounder. I don't consider that a bust. What do you expect to find? All you are doing is throwing darts at some names you have left on your board in the hope you get lucky. I stop throwing out the bust tag on player drafted after maybe the 3rd- 4th. round.
So, out of that draft we got 5 guys who start or started on a regular basis, though Little is lucky to be playing. Taylor and Cameron could play for any team in the league. Sheard could play for most at least in some rotational basis, and Skrine could be the 3rd corner on many teams in the league.
I have long maintained if you can get 2-3 starter type players....meaning guys who could be solid starters for most teams in the league, you had a solid draft.
We did here.....solid draft.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
I think he did some good.
I really like picks like Winn, Pinkston, Jordan [man, was I wrong about that one,] Skrine, etc.
Some were okay. Haden [I would have rather had Thomas,] Sheard, Ward, etc.
Some were horrific. Weeden, TRich, Hardesty, Marecic, etc.
My biggest gripe was his last draft. Man, that draft was loaded and we trade up for a RB. We gave up picks for TRich. Then, we turn around and draft an old, dumb qb. I still think Schwartz was a reach. We could have traded down and done so well.
Overall...............he was good and bad. I do agree w/you that he was better than any of his predecessors.
If Heckert had found a QB he'd have been the best GM the Browns have had in the last 20 - 30 years. That's one big glaring weakness, but he was one pick away from turning us into a contender. Its just unfortunate for him, for us. The guy knew what he was doing. Its pretty hard to find a QB unless you're handed the #1 overall pick.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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As I always say. It take threes years to see how a draft turned out.
I'm giving Heck a standing ovation on that draft.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Is it fair to judge a nose tackle by sacks?
Casey Hampton says no.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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The guy was drafted to be a 4-3 DT. He's done both and done fairly well, I believe his story from his draft is that he's best as a penetrating tackle.
Even though I'm a self-proclaimed football newbie, I still felt disappointed with how we used him in our variable-front defense. I would've thought Horton would have more fun with a guy that big and that athletic.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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1 (21) Phil Taylor D-
Heckert essentially took the #6 pick and turned it into Phil Taylor, Brandon Weeden, Greg Little and Owen Marecic (and burned a third round pick in the process).
That's a failure, and I don't know what grading system wouldn't deem it an F.
Taylor was a decent enough selection where he was taken, but I can't ignore the road it took to get there.
2 (37) Jabaal Sheard A
Good pick, good value. One of the few Browns selections that I might not change given the chance to bend history.
2 (59) Greg Little D
A huge swing, a huge whiff. The second round is not the place to take fliers on project players, especially when you're a talent starved team
4 (102) Jordan Cameron A-
You get a Pro Bowler in the 4th, you're doing something right. The minus is for a lack of sustained production, but this was a great pick.
4 (124) Owen Marecic F
Heckert fell in love with the myth of a two-way player so gritty he cracked his helmet. Too bad he had no NFL skills.
5 (137) Buster Skrine B-
I think he's more suited in the slot, but he held his own as a CB2 and has developed nicely. Seeing Richard Sherman's name a few down the line makes you sigh a bit (and add a minus).
5 (150) Jason Pinskton C
Can't really complain, but can't really talk about it being a great pick, either.
7 (248) Eric Hagg D-
Can't really put a failing grade on a seventh rounder, so D- it is.
In the grand scheme, not a very good draft at all, though we did manage to get a few nice pieces out of it, which is under par as far as Browns drafts go.
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Good draft by Heckert..
and yes, Greg Little is a bust..
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Quote:
It is important to keep in mind we traded down from #7 that season. This netted Taylor, Little, Marecic, and Weeden. Some picks were also tossed in trading up for Taylor and later for Richardson.
At #7 we had the option of picking seven different future probowlers: Julio Jones, Aldon Smith, JJ Watt, Tyron Smith, Robert Quinn, Mike Pouncey, and Ryan Kerrigan. Nick Fairley was also available along with a slew of lousy quarterbacks.
I think Taylor is a fine player. But I'd take any of those guys over him right now. (Maybe not Smith or Pouncey due to need).
Sheard seems to be a hit relative to the other players drafted behind him. He has played well in both the 4-3 and 3-4.
Little is awful. He was a converted RB and simply can't catch. We took him one pick after Torrey Smith and Randall Cobb was available for a long time after we picked. We could have taken Mallett with this pick, or with our 3rd had we not traded it away for Taylor.
Jordan Cameron was a very clever pick. He showed nothing until this season and poofed into some pretty high quality play. Well done Mr. Heckert.
Not only does Marecic suck. Taking a fullback in the 4th round is absurd. This was when we realized Heckert wasn't all that good. Probowler Julius Thomas was taken shortly after as was Bilal Powell who got a lot of carries this season. There isn't a tremendous amount of talent in the 4th but Marecic was especially horrid.
Buster Skrine is a hit in my opinion. Funny to see now but we actually took him slightly before the Seahawks took Richard Sherman. They have to have had the luckiest drafting history in recent memory. Finding a competent 2/3 corner in the 5th isn't that common.
Pinkston...for a 5th round pick I would call him a hit. I'm not sure how fully he recovered from the blood clot or how well he fits into different schemes. Finding a high quality starter this late is very rare. He was in the average to below average area where most of these guys never see the field. Not bad.
Eric Hagg didn't work out. He was very recently signed by the Broncos after seemingly sitting out this season (perhaps rehabbing an injury?).
Grade? I give it a C. He passed up a bunch of probowlers in the first but snagged one in the 4th. A mixture of failure and success.
All good points. It's my belief that Heckert was trying to set us up for the following draft with the trade down. He saw Luck and RG3 on the horizon and tried to set us up to get one. If Peyton doesn't miss that season and Indy isn't at the top of the 2012 draft we may well have had the ammo to get one of those QB's. As it is, outbidding us and breaking the bank to draft RG3 hasn't worked out so well for the Skins. At least not so far.
I'd give the 2011 draft a B- which in Berea is awesome 
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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Quote:
Quote:
I am a huge fan of trading back and aquiring more picks than trading up and surrendering picks.
Me too, but not this year.
Who would you trade up for? And how much are you willing to pay?
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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This is not directed at you Spirit you just happened to be the last one to post.
So Guys just what do you consider a good GM and his draft? It seems like some people expect a GM to hit every single draft choice every single time. Man thats more bull crap than you see in the sand at a cow farm.
Just what do so many of you guys consider a good draft?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
1 (21) Phil Taylor D-
Heckert essentially took the #6 pick and turned it into Phil Taylor, Brandon Weeden, Greg Little and Owen Marecic (and burned a third round pick in the process).
That's a failure, and I don't know what grading system wouldn't deem it an F.
Taylor was a decent enough selection where he was taken, but I can't ignore the road it took to get there.
Phil Taylor as a player has nothing to do with how the pick was acquired.
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~ Legend
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To be fair, it does though. Because we're judging the draft as a whole and not just the individual players. Though I will say that it's unfair to judge Weeden on this as it's a separate draft and they still positioned themselves to do better. But then again, I really just want to live in a blissful ignorance on what we gave up for Phil.
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I hated the trade when it happened on draft night. Couldn't stand we dropped all the way down, just like we did with mangini in 09. Heckert did ok in 11, but you can't pass on top tier talent for guys like taylor, and little. then they mucked it up by taking weeden a year later. Absolutely horrible.
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Hindsight is a great thing, isn't it?
I guess he should have taken Gabbert, Locker or Ponder at six.
The trade down was the right move as it Set us up to trade for a QB in a better class.
Just as Banner's trade was the right move to do so this draft.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I tend to look only at the players, not how we got them. That's what being a GM is all about, getting the players. Using the tools you have to move around.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
This is not directed at you Spirit you just happened to be the last one to post.
So Guys just what do you consider a good GM and his draft? It seems like some people expect a GM to hit every single draft choice every single time. Man thats more bull crap than you see in the sand at a cow farm.
Just what do so many of you guys consider a good draft?
I agree. That is why I said that if a team gets a couple of good starting players per draft, it is a good draft.
I think some over analyze and play the "what if" game...what if we drafted this guy v who we drafted....to me it doesn't work that way. IMO, once a player is drafted, it doesn't really matter what round he was selected. As long as we get our two good starters, I don't care if they come from round 1 or round 7.
Now, if the GM keeps busting on the top pick and hits on later picks it might make me think the guy is getting it done by pure luck over any ability to select good players....that would be a point of concern that might make me want to make a change.....but bottom line, 2 good players a draft is all one can really expect over the course of time.
* By good player, I am talking about a player who would crack the starting line-up for nearly every team in the league, not just our starting line-up. On those teams he would be a major contributor. Not really a back-up, more of a co-starter in a rotational system.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 02/16/14 08:32 AM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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JC Still no franchise QB....Heckert and everyone before him has failed the Brown's in the drafting department. End of story. I'll never understand why you guys argue this crap. You can't change it. The only thing you get ........I told you so! Or something to that extent. 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Quote:
I think some over analyze and play the "what if" game...what if we drafted this guy v who we drafted....to me it doesn't work that way. IMO, once a player is drafted, it doesn't really matter what round he was selected. As long as we get our two good starters, I don't care if they come from round 1 or round 7.
I understand what you are saying. If you get someone who ends up being "good" according to your definition, at the end of the day, that is all that matters.
However, I do think GMs should be criticized, especially in earlier rounds, if other players taken shortly after perform above and beyond. It's all about the opportunity cost of a choice.
For example, when Greg Little was taken- just five spots later another WR Randall Cobb was selected. I think it is fair to criticize Heckert in possibly choosing the the wrong WR here. Now, I get Cobb has Rogers throwing to him and Little has the flavor of the week at QB, but I think if all things are equal, Cobb still comes out on top.
Another one...Leon McFadden. Now, I don't know how McFadden will shape out but the next pick after Leon was another secondary player, Tyronn Mathieu. He had a hell of a rookie year. I think it is fair to question the decision making ability, at least at this point, why we didn't pick him while we had a need at FS. Maybe Tyronn goes back to rehab and maybe McFadden proves his worth but again, I think you can question the judgement of the FO here.
I think the same thought process is applicable to trades as well.... Who did we opt not to take??
Heckert, IMO, made a great trade with Atlanta in 2011. What resulted in the trade, outside of Taylor, was poor. It's fair to look at players taken around the additional picks we acquired in judging the decision making of the talent selected.
In 2011- Already touched on Greg Little above. instead of Owen Marecic- how about Bilal Powell or Cortez Allen.
In 2012- Instead of Weeden, there are plenty of worthy picks shortly after him.
With LomBanner:
In the trade w/ Steelers- G Barrett Jones
In the trade w/ the Colts- WR Kenny Stills
These players may or may not end up being valuable but they were bypassed when other teams picked them at similar locations in the draft. Again, as I look at it, it's about opportunity cost.
If the same regime were making the 2014 picks in substitution for these 2013 picks, then it's fair to question the decisions to trade and the decision on who they would have selected instead. If the subsequent picks end up being "good" and the above two player examples don't then it's obviously the right moves were done. But again, I think it's fair to criticize the overall decision making when doing these moves.
Now, of course, no GM gets is right every single time. But when looking at a FO's moves on a macro scale, we should look at everything- including the cost of player bypassed for other players (especially at the same position) or trades. That's all I'm trying to say.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I'll never understand why you guys argue this crap. You can't change it
Its rather simple Spiral - its a freaking message board. If we don't DISCUSS these things as fans just close up the board or just have a general topic talking about everything but the Browns. Its just expressing Opinion. but Obviously my opinion is Correct and all others are wrong
I still think the key on what is a good GM regarding the draft is the Hits in the 1st and 2nd rounds.
Its the teams that do poorly in those rounds over the years become bottom feeders and the teams who do well the top Echelon teams. This is a proven fact even though I'm way too lazy to PROVE it lol  This is why I'd like to team up with Django - apparently he is no way lazy like me. I question about 25% of his football but say what you will the guy is not lazy.
Before this gets too Kumbaya - He reminds me of Lombardi working real hard and his drafting prowess...lol Bazinga
Actually, you can change it. Some imbecile wrote on the local CBS TV station's facebook page a comment about 'The Three Stooges'. This was used by a 'journalist' as the impetus for a stupid question. It turned into a t-shirt slogan and a campaign to ridicule the owner, the team president and the team's general manager publicly.
One person made a big impact. You can argue how much of an impact, but it certainly played some part in the outcome. That's a huge impact by one person.
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Quote:
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1 (21) Phil Taylor D-
Heckert essentially took the #6 pick and turned it into Phil Taylor, Brandon Weeden, Greg Little and Owen Marecic (and burned a third round pick in the process).
That's a failure, and I don't know what grading system wouldn't deem it an F.
Taylor was a decent enough selection where he was taken, but I can't ignore the road it took to get there.
Phil Taylor as a player has nothing to do with how the pick was acquired.
In terms of grading the draft, it matters to me. We had the #6 pick, and when the dust settled, Phil Taylor ended up being the lone acquisition that mattered. That's a failure as far as I'm concerned.
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Is it fair to judge a nose tackle by sacks?
Casey Hampton says no.
Agreed...if you're Casey Hampton. Run-stuffing extraordinaires who have one job shouldn't be evaluated by factoring sacks into the equation. Phil Taylor isn't a lightweight on the line, but he's not known as being an elite run-stuffer or anything close to that. I would argue that Rubin is more stout against the run.
Taylor has all the tools but the knocks on him coming out have yet to be answered while the promise of the positives have yet to be realized.
I've gone back and located a statement in one of his scouting reports which represents the current state of his game to a tee, in my opinion:
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Walter Football
On the field he is the consensus top prospect for teams looking to fill the nose tackle position in their 3-4. At the next level, he needs to keep his weight under control, improve his stamina and get after the passer a little more to be an elite player. Still, right now he can step in and make an impact in a rotation as a run stopper whom offenses need to avoid.
Has he kept his weight under control? I would say he has unless someone else knows otherwise.
Has his stamina improved? He gets winded often and finds himself on the sideline more often than a good player should. Can that be attributed to injuries? Maybe, maybe not, but one of his questions was durability.
Has he improved his rush ability? I haven't seen any evidence to suggest he has. He's a power-player without any signficant rush components to his game.
So that leaves the last sentence which indicates he would be able to step into a rotation as a run-stuffing rookie. He's had good moments doesn't excel against the run.
There's still potential in his game. He's not a failure, but he hasn't succeeded through his 3rd year relative to being the 21st player taken in the draft. Because this is his walk-year, it's a make-or-break year for him.
Players and agents always shoot for the 2nd contract to be the life-changer which puts teams in awkward positions. If a highly-drafted player doesn't live up to expectations it's hard to justify giving them big free agent money, and those players can often get that cash by some strapped, desperate team.
I want Taylor on this team. He's a big, menacing, strong bull of a man who should be a difference-maker, and still can be. But his clock is ticking, and if he doesn't take a big stride in his 4th year it's very fair to question if he ever will.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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Hindsight is a great thing, isn't it?
I guess he should have taken Gabbert, Locker or Ponder at six.
...or Julio Jones or Aldon Smith or JJ Watt or Robert Quinn.
And the whole purpose of the exercise is using 20/20 hindsight to evaluate what happened.
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The trade down was the right move as it Set us up to trade for a QB in a better class.
Just as Banner's trade was the right move to do so this draft.
And had he hit on the set-up, the grade would be higher.
If we whiff on the pick we acquired for Richardson, then the trade isn't as shrewd as it seems right now.
Setting yourself up for the future is usually a good idea, but you have to capitalize on that set up down the line, or it isn't much to write home about.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 74,919 |
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If we whiff on the pick we acquired for Richardson, then the trade isn't as shrewd as it seems right now.
Setting yourself up for the future is usually a good idea, but you have to capitalize on that set up down the line, or it isn't much to write home about.
I simply don't see that. Each move is done separately. The move to get a first round pick for TRich was a great move. If the pick is blown, that's a bad move.
Banner won't even have any say in the pick. So how you can try to combine the two baffles me.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
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If we whiff on the pick we acquired for Richardson, then the trade isn't as shrewd as it seems right now.
Setting yourself up for the future is usually a good idea, but you have to capitalize on that set up down the line, or it isn't much to write home about.
I simply don't see that. Each move is done separately. The move to get a first round pick for TRich was a great move. If the pick is blown, that's a bad move.
Banner won't even have any say in the pick. So how you can try to combine the two baffles me.
What exactly is baffling about it?
If somehow a light miraculously goes on for Richardson and he averages, say, 3.8 YPC and 10 TD's on the way to a Colts Super Bowl run, and the guy we pick at 26 flames out in three years, then no one will be praising the Richardson trade as a great move down the line in hindsight.
The Banner apologists, if there are any left, will tout it, but that's about it.
In hindisight, the Julio Jones trade was a failure. I understand the view of it being a prudent move at the time, but if you gain little for your assets, then who cares? It was still a failure.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186 |
I agree. the falcons got the better end of that trade, since they have the best player, and our haul of players hasn't added up to much of anything. Could only dream of a Julio-Gordon tandem.
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Legend
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His 2011 draft would be considered an overall success based on guys like Skrine and Cameron becoming starters in spite of where they were drafted. Little IMHO is a bust. He not only hasn't developed into a starter, he's failed to make an impact as a sub-package player.
And while it's clearly going against the adoration of the guy, I think Taylor is vastly over-rated by Browns fans. He's been a decent player with short bursts of great play but longer stretches of little impact. Versatility, great size, great strength, and a menacing look doesn't make a player great. His lack of rush-ability has been a disappointment.
In 3 seasons he's registered exactly 1 forced fumble. Since his rookie season he's had 3 sacks. He's been decent against the run but far from dominant and saw his snaps reduced last season.
People won't like to read this, but 2014 is a make-or-break season for Taylor.
I need to start asking what your criteria for certain positions are. I'm starting to think you have insane expectations from certain positions.
I suppose if you're perfectly content with 7 sacks and 1 forced fumble in 3 seasons then we are going to have two very different "expectations" from certain positions. I also don't expect the 21st player taken in any draft to be taken off the field on passing downs if he's a D-lineman.
Frankly, I think it's more than fair to question just how good Taylor has been for this team. Likeable? Yeah. Productive to his draft position? I don't think so. He's trending towards being a 2-down player.
Setting all that aside, 2014 is Taylor's walk-year. Has there been loud noise from anyone in the media or from the organization stating that it's imperative to lock him down to a new contract? I haven't heard any of that. If you don't want a really good, young player to leave you lock him up before he gets to the end of his contract.
Taylor hasn't been as good as people around here believe him to be. There's still potential there, but he was never a good rush-player, and likely never will be. He's had some injuries and while versatile, he's not excellent at either NT, DT, or DE.
If Taylor gives the same production in 2014 as he did in 2013 I think he's allowed to go elsewhere. It's not too late for him but he's reached a crossroads kinda season.
So we want Mack and Ward to walk? I never heard anything about extensions before this year. Every player that doesn't get an extension before his contract is up, the other team wants said player to walk? Am I reading this correctly?
Maybe it's hard to resign guys when the bosses and coaches are constantly being fired.
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 39,620 |
Not only that, Mack went in to this past season set on not talking contracts. I think we wants to test the market, and possibly even wants to leave Cleveland. He played on the west coast. Maybe he simply wants to go back there?
As for Ward, I don't think there was any real reason to talk extension with him before this past season.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Maybe it's hard to resign guys when the bosses and coaches are constantly being fired.
Amen.
Hard to evaluate when the schemes keep changing. Hard to get players to "buy-in" when there are multiple coaching staffs saying "this way is best". Hard for those players to develop a sense of unity when the team has no unity.
I'd not be surprised if players are torn between wanting to make this their home, to work their asses off for their team to succeed verses just wanting out of the dysfunction of nothing ever taking root.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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JC
To the people questioning Phil and questioning his productivity, this is mind boggling to me. He's double teamed virtually always. Often see him up field and proof of that is when he made the fumble recovery or the caused fumble, cant recall but it likely wouldn't have happened if Phil wasn't hustling.
Constantly splits double teams and wrecks havoc in the offensive backfields. My question/concern with Phil is... what is there to NOT like about him? He isn't a head case either.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum t's that time.. 3 years later
grading Heckert's 2011 draft
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