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1. I said by end of March...giving a what if space in there. As in what if he doesn't sign the contract right away but visits the teams that are interested in him??? Why does a general wide stroked statement have to be so Perfect and exact? Shall I have to put the exact date n time for it to be considered LOGICAL 
2. We have 7 days to sign him.
Note one is more funny to me than mad. But sometimes I just don't understand your reasoning there. But the key word was "BY" as in it can happen before the end of March.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Quote:
1. I said by end of March...giving a what if space in there. As in what if he doesn't sign the contract right away but visits the teams that are interested in him??? Why does a general wide stroked statement have to be so Perfect and exact? Shall I have to put the exact date n time for it to be considered LOGICAL
2. We have 7 days to sign him.
Note one is more funny to me than mad. But sometimes I just don't understand your reasoning there. But the key word was "BY" as in it can happen before the end of March.
What did I misread,, you said it would be settled by the Draft.. you did mention march and I did miss that.
As for the 7 days, I said I wasn't sure. I thought it was 5 but ok,, 7 it is then..
What thinking aren't you understanding?
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/06/14 08:59 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
If Mack does not accept an offer from another team, and doesn't work out a deal with Cleveland, then yes, he will get a 1 year deal from Cle for 10 mil..
I'm saying no one wants that, no one likes to be tagged, because everyone wants the security of a multi year deal with garentees..
Which leads me to believe he'll take less than 10 mil per year to get a multi year deal...
Because no one really wants to pay a center 10 mil...
No way Mack turns down 10 million. He will play one year with the Browns and look multi-year next year. Mack is getting an incentive to stay in Cleveland. The Browns need to correct the ship making it a place Mack wants to stay. This helps the Browns with cap minimum requirements too.
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
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Quote:
Quote:
If Mack does not accept an offer from another team, and doesn't work out a deal with Cleveland, then yes, he will get a 1 year deal from Cle for 10 mil..
I'm saying no one wants that, no one likes to be tagged, because everyone wants the security of a multi year deal with garentees..
Which leads me to believe he'll take less than 10 mil per year to get a multi year deal...
Because no one really wants to pay a center 10 mil...
No way Mack turns down 10 million. He will play one year with the Browns and look multi-year next year. Mack is getting an incentive to stay in Cleveland. The Browns need to correct the ship making it a place Mack wants to stay. This helps the Browns with cap minimum requirements too.
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
we'e had players before take less to leave this place. Eric Wright comes to mind.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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What thinking aren't you understanding? 1. you are correct I did state BY the draft.
2. Yep, I did finish it up with we should have him signed by the end of March.
3. 7 vs 5 just correcting a fact not criticizing.
4. Like so many times on a message board possibly I took what you wrote differently so its easy to not understand anyones thinking 100% 
relax...I ain't a dawg that bites....sometimes I do bark and will only bite if bitten.
lol 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Quote:
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
But Mack doesn't score any way you slice it. If he gets significantly injured in 2014 there is no way he signs for the same guaranteed money he could get right now. It behooves him to look for the deal now, whether w/ Cleveland or another team (which by extension could still be Cleveland if they match it). Signing this one year deal is a gamble, no matter the type of tag or the amount that comes with it. It's a huge risk for the player.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Quote:
What thinking aren't you understanding?
1. you are correct I did state BY the draft.
2. Yep, I did finish it up with we should have him signed by the end of March.
3. 7 vs 5 just correcting a fact not criticizing.
4. Like so many times on a message board possibly I took what you wrote differently so its easy to not understand anyones thinking 100%
relax...I ain't a dawg that bites....sometimes I do bark and will only bite if bitten.
lol
Ahh, how refreshing, a man that accepts his weaknesses 
That was chain yanking right there bud....LOL
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JC
Now that we have tagged him, are we allowed to keep trying to sign him to a long term deal of our own accord or are we bound to wait it out until some other team makes him a offer?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I believe we can still negotiate a contract with Mack but if he signs a long term deal then we lose the use of the Transition tag for however long his contract is.
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Quote:
Quote:
If Mack does not accept an offer from another team, and doesn't work out a deal with Cleveland, then yes, he will get a 1 year deal from Cle for 10 mil..
I'm saying no one wants that, no one likes to be tagged, because everyone wants the security of a multi year deal with garentees..
Which leads me to believe he'll take less than 10 mil per year to get a multi year deal...
Because no one really wants to pay a center 10 mil...
No way Mack turns down 10 million. He will play one year with the Browns and look multi-year next year. Mack is getting an incentive to stay in Cleveland. The Browns need to correct the ship making it a place Mack wants to stay. This helps the Browns with cap minimum requirements too.
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
I could be wrong here, but this got me wondering...
If Mack signs the Transition deal for the $10M, its my understanding he won't actually start getting paychecks for that until the season starts.
If he signs a long-term contract with a signing bonus, he gets that ENTIRE signing bonus (no doubt will be more than $10M, whoever he signs with) the day he signs it.
So, even though the $10M for this year seems like a great deal for Mack, he won't actually see any of that money until September. (I think). This could possibly be a deterrent for him wanting to sign that deal.
If I was him, I'd be looking for the long-term contract with the big signing bonus TODAY rather than the 1 year contract at $10M that we won't see a dime of until 6 months from now.
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Signing bonuses cab be stretched out over the length of a contract unless that was changed in the new CBA.
ie..... 12 mil signing bonus for a 4 year contract equates to 3 mil per year. The only catch is, that if you cut a player, you're on the hook for whatever remains left that you have not yet paid in the signing bonus.
It's guaranteed money but not in one lump sum.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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pretty sure it went from being stretched from 5 years to 4 years???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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That very well could be. I gave up on trying to keep up with every new contract and CBA they negotiated.  I did know it wasn't one lump sum and was stretched out over years. Other than that, I can't say for sure one way or the other.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I remember it had to be the length of the contract so for Long term contracts it wouldn't be stretched more than 5 seasons. Pretty sure the new CBA became 4??? but we have seen the Signing bonuses get smaller and more n more Roster Bonuses take over the Bonus world of NFL Contracts.
I never saw the Roster Bonuses as good for either party - cause usually it would become a poison pill to cut somebody.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Signing bonuses cab be stretched out over the length of a contract unless that was changed in the new CBA.
ie..... 12 mil signing bonus for a 4 year contract equates to 3 mil per year. The only catch is, that if you cut a player, you're on the hook for whatever remains left that you have not yet paid in the signing bonus.
It's guaranteed money but not in one lump sum.
I'm pretty sure it's spread out "on the books" over many years to affect the cap number but the player gets ALL of it up front. The actual bonus is NOT spread over many years...just it's affect on the cap.
So if Mack gets a 4 year deal with $16M signing bonus, he gets a nice hand-written check from Jimmy Haslam for $16M. However, his cap number for each of the next 4 years would be the total of ($4M) + whatever his "salary" is for each season is.
If they cut him before the end of the 4 years, then his pro-rated signing bonus is accelerated (dead money) against the cap. The reason for this is that the team has already paid the player (when he signed the contract) and it must count.
I'm pretty sure this is how is works but I wouldn't bet my kids on it. Well, maybe.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Many contracts today are being written with guarantees instead of signing bonuses. (or instead of part of a signing bonus)
A player may sign a deal with the 1st 2 years fully guaranteed, the 3rd year 50% guaranteed, and the 4th year 25% guaranteed, (or similar terms)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yes. There is a difference between a "signing bonus" and "guaranteed" money. Signing bonuses are paid on the spot with the contract. Guaranteed money is paid during the season. Both have effects on the cap value for that player and when/if that player is cut.
My point above originally was....
Mack would probably want a long term contract with a signing bonus he can cash in March rather than wait until September and collect $625,000 per game for 16 weeks.
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Today there are usually signing bonuses and guarantees all lumped into "guaranteed money" in a premium free agent contract.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
But Mack doesn't score any way you slice it. If he gets significantly injured in 2014 there is no way he signs for the same guaranteed money he could get right now. It behooves him to look for the deal now, whether w/ Cleveland or another team (which by extension could still be Cleveland if they match it). Signing this one year deal is a gamble, no matter the type of tag or the amount that comes with it. It's a huge risk for the player.
What is the difference? Mack signs a long term contract and gets hurt. Team waves him anyway. NFL contracts are not guaranteed.
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Ross Tucker's Sporting News ColumnQuote:
The Browns have tons of cap space, more than $50 million, and every other team knows that. And they've already made it known that they are willing to pay Mack more than $10 million for just this season with no guarantee of keeping him afterward.
Simply put, no team is going to make an offer to Mack. It's a waste of time and resources to even negotiate a long-term deal with him when you know the Browns are just going to match it. To me, it's almost disingenuous to argue that you are letting a guy like Mack hit the market.
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What it says is that the Browns are letting Mack and the open market set/adjust his value. With their ability to match absolutely anything that doesn't have a poison pill clause in it, there is little need to worry about compensation because someone would have to actually sign him to an absolutely absurd offer sheet in order for the Browns to say "no thanks, that's too much for our blood".
It's a solid move by the team with very little risk involved. I simply take it to mean that the two sides want to negotiate a deal here, but they are just very far apart on the numbers.... this is the team's way of nudging them toward a happy middle ground.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
But Mack doesn't score any way you slice it. If he gets significantly injured in 2014 there is no way he signs for the same guaranteed money he could get right now. It behooves him to look for the deal now, whether w/ Cleveland or another team (which by extension could still be Cleveland if they match it). Signing this one year deal is a gamble, no matter the type of tag or the amount that comes with it. It's a huge risk for the player.
First off, I hope Bugs is right about how this will play out. I'm not as confident it will go that way, but I hope he is right.
But I agree that Mack would prefer a long term deal. He could have a dud year or a nagging injury (ankle, knee) that hurts his value going forward. And he'd probably love a big signing bonus instead of waiting on paychecks.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hypothetically if Mack would accept less from another team, Browns get to match. Mack scores with this tag anyway you slice it. Long term contracts are a pipe dream anyway. Not many players play them out. It's the guarantee money up front that is the selling point. Mack needs another pro bowl year to really get a big slice of pie.
But Mack doesn't score any way you slice it. If he gets significantly injured in 2014 there is no way he signs for the same guaranteed money he could get right now. It behooves him to look for the deal now, whether w/ Cleveland or another team (which by extension could still be Cleveland if they match it). Signing this one year deal is a gamble, no matter the type of tag or the amount that comes with it. It's a huge risk for the player.
What is the difference? Mack signs a long term contract and gets hurt. Team waves him anyway. NFL contracts are not guaranteed.
A portion of a contract is guaranteed for players of Mack caliber. If fact most contract have guaranteed $$ in them.....Joe Thomas' contract has $28.5M guaranteed; Ryan Khalil (Center) has $19M guaranteed in his contract....and on, and on.
The risk is if he signs for one year and blows out his knee, he'll won't get nearly the guaranteed money next year than he can this year in a long term deal. He's healthy, played every snap.
In your example, if he signed a contract now, blew out his knee, and was waved the team WOULD be on the hook for the remaining guaranteed money outlined in the contract. And in Mack's case, the guaranteed money would be very high if he signed a long term deal now.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Memphis, it is still a contract. The one year deal simple has to pay Mack 10 million. Him and his agent can make any stipulations necessary.
One year contracts have issues where a player thinks he is worth more or have a potential of more. Then if a player gets hurt, he has no way of obtaining. In this case, Mack is getting 2 or 3 million above the norm. The big issue for Mack is getting a contract in 2015 near the amount he receives this year.
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Memphis, it is still a contract. The one year deal simple has to pay Mack 10 million. Him and his agent can make any stipulations necessary.
One year contracts have issues where a player thinks he is worth more or have a potential of more. Then if a player gets hurt, he has no way of obtaining. In this case, Mack is getting 2 or 3 million above the norm. The big issue for Mack is getting a contract in 2015 near the amount he receives this year.
And if it's 10 million, he won't get it. So it's really better for him this way.
You are right about the 2 or 3 million about the norm (I prefer to use the term Average which is 7.7 million)
If we end up paying him the 10 mill then you are correct.
I just don't think it's going to happen that way,. Someone is going to offer him something like 8 to 9.5 mill a year (structured in what way I don't know) and we'll match it.
Simple
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If we're going to match it, then why is anyone going to offer a reasonable deal?
I think theres a point to the idea, that while it seems like a good faith move, letting Mack talk to other teams, is it really? Who's going to want to take the time to work out a deal with him if they know we're going to match it?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Memphis, it is still a contract. The one year deal simple has to pay Mack 10 million. Him and his agent can make any stipulations necessary.
One year contracts have issues where a player thinks he is worth more or have a potential of more. Then if a player gets hurt, he has no way of obtaining. In this case, Mack is getting 2 or 3 million above the norm. The big issue for Mack is getting a contract in 2015 near the amount he receives this year.
Sorry. I have no idea what you are trying to illustrate here as it relates to my comments or anything you've said in the past, for that matter.
I originally said it's not a win-win for Mack because if he gets significantly hurt on this one year tag contract, it will hurt in terms of the amount of guaranteed money he could get in a long term deal in 2015. Players do have guaranteed money in their deals and would prefer long term deals because of it. It's also a safety net in case they do get injured. Mack's deal is guaranteed for $10M for 2014 but I'd bet he'd prefer an average of $7/$8M as long as the guaranteed money hovered around $20M. It locks him up long term in case does get injured but also provides significant money beyond the $20M mark if he remains healthy simply by the lifespan of the deal.
If you disagree with this, fine. But we'll stop here because I think you aren't correct.
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If we're going to match it, then why is anyone going to offer a reasonable deal?
Simple, if a team thinks that the Browns won't match a 15 mill a year contract then they damn well better be prepared to pay that amount of money. there are no "I take that back" if the Browns elect not to match.
I just have a hard time believing that any team in the league is going to sink more than 8 or 9 million into a Center.
Quote:
I think theres a point to the idea, that while it seems like a good faith move, letting Mack talk to other teams, is it really?
Yes and no, depending on your point of view. You seem to think it's a bad Idea.
But let's say you are the Browns and Macks agent comes in to talk and says, hey, my guy (mack) is going to be offered 10 million a year so if you want him, you better get north of that.
Now if you are smart, you say, OK, I'll transition tag him and you (mr, Agent) get to prove it.
It hurts nothing,, NOTHING. Nobody is going to go nuts. They all will be reasonable.
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Who's going to want to take the time to work out a deal with him if they know we're going to match it?
Any team that covets him, needs a Center to protect their QB and has the money.
You can discount everyone else.
Remember when Holmgren and Heckert were soundly beaten around the head for nothing giving up a boat load of picks for RGIII? We'll picture fan backlash if a team needs a Center and they don't even make a play for Mack. Perhaps the best center available in FA.
And while I don't think anyone is wacky enough to offer a crazy contract (anything north of 10mill) there might be one. In that case, they might get him.
Then guess what, we'll have to go find another,.
This is a crazy league, a crazy business. And I think this is their best shot at retaining him while making sure that you don't get hornswoggled in the process by a good agent,.
We'll pay what someone else will pay, if we want to.
#GMSTRONG
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j/c
Does anyone know if the league & NFLPA outlawed Poison Pill contracts?
If not, all a team needs to do is mimic the Steve Hutchison deal and add a clause where he is guaranteed and additional 20 million a year if he plays two or more games in the city of Cleveland in any season of the contract.
EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw that they were eliminated with the 2011 CBA.
Last edited by PrplPplEater; 03/06/14 05:03 PM.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That's why I said it was a very smart counter move that completely turned the leverage in this negotiation. The fact that we have tons of cap space has become a negative for Mack now, whereas it was a positive when the negotiations started.
If Mack's agent comes back to us to discuss a long term deal, because I'm sure he doesn't want to risk to play on that 10mil deal only, then if I was Farmer my offer would be, say, just 500k/year lower than before just to make the point clear that he got greedy.
So much for the "angst" that now teams would "offer more" lol
Oh, and some in here still donn't understand that NO CONTRACT has been signed yet by Mack. The transition tag only functions as a "blocker". He will either sign a contract with another team and then hand it to us or he will come begging back to Farmer when he sees that nobody offers more (the more likely scenario imho). I'd love to make him eat that 500k lol or even if it's 100k, but maybe that's jerky lol
#gmstrong
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Diehard that is exactly how it works and nice job explaining it =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I guess it comes down to if Mack really wants to get out of here...
The only way he can do hat now basically is taking the tag for a year and going again next year, assuming we don't just tag him again...
If getting out of here isn't a priority, then it should be "easy" to work out a deal..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The reason why they say "nobody else will offer mack a contract" is that it actually hurts a team temporarily to offer that contract.
When you offer a Transition player (or RFA) a contract, that money temporarily goes on your books (with regard to your remaining salary cap). And the money is temporarily frozen until the other team matches the deal or not.
So a team pursuing Mack would have to tie up $10M on their salary cap, and then wait for 7 days (during FA period), until we, in all likelihood, match the deal.
Of course, we could match earlier, but have no reason to (especially if a rival offered the contract).
~Lyuokdea
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If the poison pill hadn't been eliminated, I'd be worried about losing Mack. Just read where the Colts just released their Veteran Center http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000331314/article/samson-satele-released-by-indianapolis-coltsWouldn't surprise me they go after Mack and with Chud there and how much Chud seemed to be liked by the players, and Irsay being a bit nuts, I'd not be surprised if they didn't go all in for him. Maybe try to go over what they think the Browns will match. Which brings up another question. What happens if a team makes a deal with Mack for 20 million a year so the Browns won't match it, but they have a gentlemans agreement that Mack will restructure next season. that way it would appear that they made a deal the browns wouldn't match, but in reality, they just did a heavy front load and will get realistic after the fact when it's too late for the browns to match. can that even happen?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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That would put a lot of faith in Mack as a gentleman. It would be very easy for Mack to go back on that deal (thinking Boozer and the Cavs).
I agree the Colts look like a potential landing spot. More likely they get an existing player to restructure (Reggie Wayne) and free up space.
While we are on gentleman's deals, any chance we work a trade if we match another team? They'd obviously like the price tag, maybe we get a player or late round pick after we match.
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Dawg Talker
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J/C
He's a CENTER.
Had the Browns franchise tagged him,they would have become the laughing stock not only of the NFL,but the entire universe.
The transition tag,although used rarely,appears to have been tailor made for situations involving interior o-linemen.
This was a shrewd move by Farmer.Mack will be playing for $10mil next year,and hopefully a new deal willbe worked out.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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$10 million is shrewd and $11.6 is a laughing stock? That's a pretty slim margin for a team with $50 million in cap space.
I think if we manage to lose 2 of our rarely drafted Pro-Bowlers at the peak of their careers, then we will be the laughing stock.
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The highest paid QB in the NFL for 2014 is Aaron Rogers at 22 mil. Second is Matt Ryan at 20.7 mil. So any team that would offer a C 20 mil.? Nah, that's simply NEVER going to happen! Gentleman's agreement or not. Or were you being sarcastic? 
Last edited by PitDAWG; 03/06/14 07:21 PM.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
So much for the "angst" that now teams would "offer more" lol
Angst?
It was a question so I could be educated.
Unlike you, I don't feel the need to look right all of the time. I actually prefer learning to pretending to being right.
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Quote:
The highest paid QB in the NFL for 2014 is Aaron Rogers at 22 mil. Second is Matt Ryan at 20.7 mil.
So any team that would offer a C 20 mil.?
Nah, that's simply NEVER going to happen! Gentleman's agreement or not.
Or were you being sarcastic?
Actually, no, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. But you didn't address the rest of my question.
The question was, if they offer a contract that reads out at 20 million a year for 5 years (100mill), the Browns would certainly not match that. (for the reasons you mentioned, it's dumb)
But WHAT IF, the Colts have a side deal that states that after the first year (too late for the Browns to match) they have a gentlemans agreement with Mack to reduce the deal to 6.5 mill a year. that would mean his deal would actually be worth 9 million a year, a very reasonable number.
I don't know if there is anything the Browns could do about it. I don't know if anyone would trust Mack or any player or agent with something like that. And trust them not to leak that info..
I mean, this is far fetched.. No question about it, but if there isn't a rule against it, what can the league or the Browns do about it if the Colts pull it off?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Transition Tag Alex Mack
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