DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Wage Hikes Minimum Impact

I stated before that although I don't believe that the Federal gov't should be sticking it's beak into private business payrolls, I understand that it is a reality. I also realize that a $2.00 per hour wage increase for the lowest earners is a big deal....but simply a temporary one.

As to your remark that the immigrants would be arriving by boatload to take the slave wage jobs available....maybe if the Federal Government wasn't spending time in private business matters it would be able to shut down the borders and eliminate your boatload concern.

All you have to do is look at our country's history to see this is the exact reason that unions and minimum wages were istituted in the first place. Because it WAS happenning.

Unfair wages,hours and poor working conditions. Child labor,etc.... That was the reality and why the gfovernment had to get involved in the first place. I don't like the government involved any more than absolutely necassary. But big business made it necassary.

Had it not been for their greed and mistreatment of workers in the first place,the government never would have gotten involved. And a two dollar raise over a ten year period,only equals out to a .20 cent raise a year freom the last minimum wage increase. Boy,talk about giving away the farm. Poor old big business.

JMHO

And the reason everything is going overseas is because the unions got greedy and rake the companies over the coals. It's that viscous cycle again.

Well all we have to do then,is get big business to cut their prices back to ten years ago and we won't need a raise in minimum wage. That should stop the cycle huh?

<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I consider to be a moderate and I largely base things off of what I see and what I thoroughly reason to be the case.

Right after I graduated from undergrad, I tutored kids from the neighborhood at a summer program at my old high school alma mater at W. 30th.

What I saw were many kids who were illiterate or very poorly educated. The program was free and what I saw from many of the parents were that they just dropped their kids off there so they wouldn't have to deal with them (I'm not speaking for everyone. Some were very nice families).

Many children were from welfare families. Many of those families used any money to either dress themselves in unnecessary jewelry and really nice clothes or on drugs.

In one case, there was a boy who had a severe illness and his family still decided to use the money they received from the government to eat at expensive restaurants for a week every month.

I see your point, Pitt, about needing to help families that really are going through hard times.

But the flip side is what really bothers me. Why take money from hard working families to help people who don't even want to help themselves?

I at least think it has to be a lot more strict.

JMHO.

We had a contest today and I shattered my budget. After we celebrated I was getting ready to leave, and had another order come through. I walked back into the office and worte it down where we right them and said to the boss what I just got. Many reps wer ticked and walked out and made snide comments (I'm on 100% commission, they can all go you know where with their comments) back to my point. I was #1 biller on the day, #1 in percent over budget. They got mad at me, most show up late - most don't work late (I just stopped about 30 minutes ago - I worked from 8am-10:15pm). Take away a small amount of time for working out, driving home and eating and I worked a 12 hour day.

The reason I own a house, have a car that's paid off, live in a nice neighborhood, if I need something buy it, have no debt, etc. Is because I WORK for it. NONE OF IT was handed to me. You want to make more than minimum wage? QUIT COMPLAINING AND WORK. Why should someone get $7.15 an hour just for showing up???? Makes no sense to me. WORK and proe your worth. Many of the repsabove wonder how I get the business I get, they get angry when I do well, why? Because they don't work and it ticks them off that I do. There are very few people there that will congratulate someone when they hear about a big deal, I'm one of them. the people I respect most do the same, oddly the ones that do are the ones that also work.

It's time people stopped crying and started working. People who say "I can't find a job" are not looking - what they are saying is "I can't find the job I want and I'm too afraid to do some hard work that I don't like so i'm going to whine and cry until some Democrat hands me a check." People crying about minimum wage and welfare and discrimination need to shut their hole and work.

Do you realize you just keep making yourself look worse every time you post <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So even though people are willing to work every day at anything they can find,you promote keeping them pretty much on equal terms as welfare recipiants.Actually,less than a welfare recipiant if it's a single mom and two kids.

You expect to give people no incentive to work. I think you're being pretty silly about it myself.

You see,minimum wage hasn't been raised for almost teen years. All anybody is looking for is "equal pay" to what they got ten years ago. All they are asking for is "not to keep going backwards". Nobody is asking for a hand out,just fair treatment.

But every year as we have inflation,you expect their wages to be frozen. That each year,they keep losing buying power. You're simply advocating the working impovrished. They haven't had a raise in minimum wage in almost ten years and you could care less about anybody other than yourself. Everybody already gets that Soup.

There's nobody else out here to convince.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let's see ...I have agreed that MW rates are here to stay
I have agreed that a $10.00 and hour MW rate is OK with me
I do accept that sweatshops have existed and may to this day in America..

Am I still allowed to question the basis upon which the Federal Government has imposed this arbitrary amount?

If unions and the MW were developed to counteract the Big Business slave wages of decades ago...why are we still fighting the battle? Do we not allow the market to dictate wages even now in the 21st Century?

Q: I got laid off in 2005, the job market was "awful" just like it is today. I had 4 job offers, all in fields I didn't want to be in and still don't want to be in. I took one and have been working my butt off in it and making a good living. Yes, I know it hits home for you and I apologize again if I offend you, however my stance won't change. When you go out and learn a new business by getting yourself hired you open doors to different worlds you didn't know existed. The job you WANT may not be available, but there are plenty you can do that are available. Those are ripe for the picking, they will lead you to what you want. I've given you many logical ideas and I'd be willing to help, ya never answered my question in PM about the field. I know a ton of people all over the place, may even be able to help you uncover a lead that you never knew was there. I'm very willing to help a fellow dawg and his family. However, info is needed.

If you are working for minimum wage and STAYING WITH THE SAME COMPANY (most min wage workers jump job to job, I know many of them) and want to improve - then you need to ask about management training program, all companies have one available. However, people don't want to work so they don't ask about it - instead they complain and change jobs over and over again (in 2 months, the lady in this article that's complaining, do you think she once asked about the management training program?). If the reporter had a 1/4 of a brain that should have been the first question asked to her.

Yet you brag about owning a house in a nice neighborhood, owning a nice car, not owing anybody any money. you also claimed that your not a man if you take unemployment checks <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Your posts don't make any sense at all Soup. If your so well off ( remember you said they take 4,000 a month in taxes out of your pay check) why in the hell would you cancel your cable, and drink only tap water when you were only out of work for two weeks <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Your sounding more and more like Tom T. Hall every time you post.


Once again you open your mouth and crap comes pouring out <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



No need to apologize. I was not offended, and I have been back to work since the first of November.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Do you really believe the crap you type <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Reference is minimum wage jobs. McDonalds, record stores, Target, etc. they all have them.

Many, many, many jobs are not for big companies, and many places that pay min. wage do not have "management training programs" Yet you say "ALL companies have one" <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Just wondering.....do kids out of college generally move to other cities/states for their first position in the real world? Do high school graduates move to other locations for trade training? Do unskilled workers leave to find jobs in construction anymore?
Just wondering how many of you worked fulltime jobs and had part time work as you attempted to raise your kids?

Can't find a job in your field or a related field? Move
Can't make it on one jobs wages? Get another

Single mother with kids??? Sucks all the time...Hope you teach your kids to be better prepared for life...Moms tell the girls not to "give it up" without being prepared to suffer the consequences.
Single motherhood will never be easy ...this is one that MW will not help!

Sure you do Ralphie.

And I'm just pointing out what I believe is an even handed answer to your question. But I doubt that it is purely an "arbitrary number" at all. I believe if you look at the cost of inflation over the past ten years,it may not even be enough to break even on what the buying power of $5.15 was almost ten years ago.

And see,there is a vicious cycle,but people,at least some of them,wish to concentrate on that vicious cycle being elsewhere,instead of where it truely lies. And that cycle,IMO,is the ability for Americans that work,to have a living that provides a minimum standard of life.

And it has gone from one extreme to the other,and back again. You see,if you really look at why labor unions were formed,it was for necassar and honorable reasons. But,just as with most things,you end up with misuse and abuse that was in no way why they were formed in the first place. So the unions that actually saved the American workere in the beginning,simply went too far,defeated the very purpose of why they were formed in the first place.

so they have pretty much lost their place in society for the most part. The last figures I saw,only about 15% of the American work force is union.

But on the flip side of the coin,now that unions have been minimized,look at the results. A "Will To Work" clause is now law. You need "no legitimate reason" to fire anyone. You can dismiss any employee,any time,for any or no reason. So if your boss didn't get any that week-end,he can just fire you because of his own sexual frustration and that's perfectly legal. Minimum wage has been frozen for almost ten years and so on. So now,we're headed right back to the other extreme and no buffer for the worker at all.

Neither extreme is good. You can just look at the labor movement of the 30's to see the consequences of what will happen if this trend continues. Unions will re-form. There will be strikes that can shut down major cities and violence and deaths.

I don't really have any problem at all with your views on this subject. Nor do I really disagree with your views. All I'm promoting is that we not carry things to the same extremes that we did that created this same social unrest we had in our countries history.

I'm for balance. Neither extreme. I was merly pointing out why there needs to be an increase in the minimum wage and what may happen if we would happen to listen to people like Soup. His beliefs will only lead to social unrest in this country. And we may be a lot closer to that now than many would like to admit,or even see in their daily life.

And I do have one question in response. The stock market was where ten years ago? And it's over 12,000 now. If,as you suggest,"The market" should dictate wages,then your ten dollar an hour minimum wage thought is probably a lot closer to what it should really be.

That's part of the problem,man's greed. First it was big business,then it was the unions. Both of those extremes came from greed. And now,the market has risen greatly over the past decade,while the pay hasn't even been close to keeping up in comparison. Once again,greed rules the day.

IMO- Whatever the better good of the country is,that's what I want. And to keep working people down while everybody else flourishes,drives a wedge between Americans. I mean what happens when only twenty percent of the country can afford to buy a new car? How can the auto industry survive? If only twenty percent of people can afford new homes,what happens to the housing industry?

So keeping wages balanced and fair actually helps businesses thrive through sales of goods and products they couldn't purchase before. The money spent on wages,goes straight back into the economy. So if a reasonable balance isn't kept,in reality we all lose.

JMHO

A. I was on a salaried job prior to this one and saved up for what I have (had the house for 4 years prior to the layoff). Not even close to a big salary.

B. Getting laid off is VERY scary. I cut eveything because I didn't know if I was going to get a job. I was nervous and freaked out, so as someone with priorities I cut things that were not NECESSITIES like a savy person would. Cable is useless without a job, pop is pointless - it's a luxury, survival requires food and water - not pop. Unlike most people, I'm very smart with my money - I'm extremely cautious. I made squat for the first year of my new job. When I don't know what I'm getting into I get extremely cautious.

C. I'm in a 100% commission job, that was one paycheck - best month I've ever had by far.

D. As for the "job" comment and saying I don't know what I'm talking about, get a paper with the classifieds and go on Monster.com. Tell me there are zero entry level jobs available. When that's the case, then and only then what I say is crap.

E. This is my first real good year. i'm very conservative with my money and always have been. I don't indulge in the latest trends, I'm sensable. Most would say cheap, but I don't have a problem spending money on what I enjoy and I spend well for quality because it's what I like.

What doesn't make sense is:

People in minimum wage jobs with cable or satelite, going out every weekend, smoking, drinking, buying DVDs, CDs, Ipods - buying any "luxury" and putting yourself in debt.

Some people look at me and say I'm cocky, bragging, etc. Those are the same people who look at those who have and make 2 or 3 times what I do and think the same about them. The people who make way more than me - I admire rather than sneer at, I'm happy for them as they worked for it and more than likely worked harder than me. Rather than be jealous, I try and igure out how they got where they are and duplicate it. Rather than complain, I work. Complaining gets you nowhere, hard work gets you everywhere. Many of us out there feel how I do, most anyone you find like me have one thing in common - we all work our butts off. I do not really like what I'm doing, it's not what I want to be doing, but doing it is much easier than complaining and trying to find a job in my field. By the way, in my old field - there are now 3 jobs in all of Western PA - all filled - rather than moan, I went on to someothing new and became a success because I wanted it.

These people who complain need to make some sacrifices and work, even if it's not what they want to do or what they went to school for.

My wife worked part time for several years so she could be home with the kids. She never worked full time till our kids were almost grown.

Kinda torn on this one... on one hand I hate the thought of somebody working long and hard for minimum wage for a long time... on the other hand, I don't see why anybody would have to....

The key to NOT working for minimum wage is education and work ethic.... and I'm not talking about Harvard masters degrees, I'm talking grade 2-5 stuff... When I was younger I was a bus boy... I cleaned up after folks who could afford to go out to dinner for waiters who made 3x what I did... and I still made $6-7 an hour 20 years ago.... then I became a waiter... what does it take to be a waiter? Well let's see.... "I'm sorry sir, we're all out of the filet tonight, might I suggest the prime rib?" or "We ain't go no filets, you want the prime rib or what?" How hard is that? My dad used to get on me because I wasn't "furthering my career" when I was younger... hmmmm get up early, wear a tie, work in an office with dull people for $6 an hour... OR sleep all day, work until midnight, drink until 3 usually for free, spend my time with co-ed waitresses and make $15 an hour... hmmmm tough one.. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't want to wait tables? Every major city on the east coast needs a variety of trades for construction... yea it's hard work... but it pays pretty well.. anybody who can operate a screw gun can make $15 an hour in the DC area to start. Just be dependable, show up, and work hard. Electricians, plumbers and other unions all have apprentice programs where you work as you learn.....

And there are examples of other industries where decent starting pay with minimum qualifications is possible... and some with advancement possibilities....

Keep in mind GM, I understand that grown man with kids and family who suddenly loses his job is in a different situation than a 20 year old kid who only has to worry about himself... so it's different...

hell, one of my brothers is a tinner (sheet metal worker) and he's making almost $60k/yr. I've kicked my own butt for not going into the trades more than once.

but he's 22 right? I mean he has to make that much in his second year or it's not worth it right? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Maybe he just understands what his basic needs are. I think that's one thing we forget too much in this country. A poor person in the US on our poverty levels compared to people starving in Africa or Korea or whever is generally in a much better predicament. We have a big thing in our society called consumerism, where we just keep on purchasing things we don't need. I wish we would all really grasp that sometimes.

80% of the world doesn't have their basic needs met.... and here we wine and complain when the market is somewhat down...

<img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

If the average American can't afford to "keep consuming" what in turn happens to the businesses that produce these goods?

I'm not advocating extremism here,but the two are directly connected.

As are hard work and good pay <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have no issue with that Soup.

But keeping the lowest wage frozen for ten years is not plausible for anyone.

Even for college kids going to school,with the cost of books,tuition and housing,they need help too. Sorry,I just can't bring myself to be as heartless about this as you seem to be. I guess I'll have to work on that huh?

Two words: Gerard Warren. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You were in a position to make squat during your first year, may people are not in that same position. Some because they wasted money over the years, some due to things out of their control.


I did that for months. You can read the want adds in the local papers around here in one min. <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> and the jobs listed on monster.com and career builders are almost nill in this area.


Your also single with no children to care for. Many other people are not.


Your saying that there are tons of jobs out there for everybody, and that every company has management training programs.


People with min. wage jobs, a home or kids are not out blowing money Soup, they can't afford to.

I'll give you another example of who is helped out by the min. wage being raised. Young people with huge college loans due once they graduate. The jobs out there now that pay six and seven bucks an hour, will end up being jobs that pay eight, nine, and ten bucks an hour once the min. wage increased <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> Also older couples who are forced to go back to work due to increased medical costs. Lets face it very few companies are going to hire a 65 to 75 year old man or woman and invest time into training them for a high paying job. I see people almost every day who have worked hard all their life and thought they would be retired and taking it easy, but they lost jobs at an advanced age, or because their company they worked for went out of business or moved over seas. People who lost pensions that they busted their butts for years to get only to have the company be able to weasel it's way out of paying it, and people who had no way of knowing their medical costs would be ten times more expensive than they had planned on in retirement.

You act like they only people making min. wage or a few bucks an hour over min. wage are all lazy bums who don't want to work. While that is true for some, it's not true for all.

I have no idea on your 1st three questions. However as for your fourth question, I didn't work a part time job when my children were younger because I worked 60 to 75 hours a week at my regular job then.


Not everybody is in a position to move.


<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Are you going to be just as heartless as soup <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> *insert heavy sarcasm here* Damn those woman for "giving it up" it's all their fault that their loving husband died of natural causes or was killed in an accident. Damn that husband who raised his kids while his wife worked, then died of cancer at 35 to 40 years of age. If the SOB would have kept it in his pants he wouldn't have to worry about his kids. *end sarcasm*

GM, "... did that for months. You can read the want adds in the local papers around here in one min. and the jobs listed on monster.com and career builders are almost nill in this area."

"Did Mohammed go to the Mountain, or did the Mountain go to Mohammed?"
I moved my family around the eastern part of this country to 4 different states and 10 different cities from 1971-2001. It was fun for me but terribly tough on them. We lost precious time with extended family and the grandparents were a once or twice a year visit. Lasting friendships with neighbors seldom developed since we were usually gone within3-4 years like clockwork.

Did I endulge myself at the sake of my kids normalcy? I don't know.
I tried to give them a good standard of living and basic skills of grammar and proper communication skills.We showed them how tough hard work could be and how important it was to use your head instead of just your back.

I moved to where the jobs were and would again. Is that not an option in your case?

GM....."...Not everybody is in a position to move" OK I do understand that it is not a pleasant experience but sometimes you have to do these things.
"...
Damn those woman for "giving it up" it's all their fault that their loving husband died of natural causes or was killed in an accident. Damn that husband who raised his kids while his wife worked, then died of cancer at 35 to 40 years of age. If the SOB would have kept it in his pants he wouldn't have to worry about his kids. *end sarcasm* "
Listen GM... If you want to claim that there are a huge number of widowed 35 year old single parents out there making minimum wage then go ahead but we both know that that segment is very,very small. In comparison to single Moms who were never married but have kids it is less than 5%.

This thread started out discussing the effect of a MW increase and now we have branched off into bebating the necessity of the social welfare safety net on underpriveleged single Moms.

Nope moving around is not an option in my case. For me (and my wife as well) money is not as important as family, and friends and missing out on time spent with them can't be replaced by material things. Thats our opinion, and I realize many people do not share that opinion, and thats fine. I am not saying we are right or wrong, thats just how we feel.

Pit...
" IMO- Whatever the better good of the country is,that's what I want. And to keep working people down while everybody else flourishes,drives a wedge between Americans. I mean what happens when only twenty percent of the country can afford to buy a new car? How can the auto industry survive? If only twenty percent of people can afford new homes,what happens to the housing industry?

So keeping wages balanced and fair actually helps businesses thrive through sales of goods and products they couldn't purchase before. The money spent on wages,goes straight back into the economy. So if a reasonable balance isn't kept,in reality we all lose."

If only 20% of the citizens can afford to buy a home and or a car then the market will collapse. That will not happen because of supply and demand...someone will build a less expensive car or home and become a billionaire while the working folks get their own property and wheels.
There are most certainly exceptions to this as few of us can buy A Rolls Royce or a Ferrari nor can we buy the Hearst Castle in California but the market generally provides balance.

I have already conceded the precedent for the MW and I really have never had a problem with the concept it as such...I just struggle with the Federal Government reaching itself into an area where Constitutional jurisdiction belongs to the States and not the Federal gov't.

And I pretty much agree with you there about the federal government not leaving these issues to the states. Our state has already addressed the issue and from where I sit,it's a non issue for Ohioans as a whole.

But in the end,we are a nation. And I would like to believe that if all of the states had addressed this issue in a fair and balanced way,there would be no reason for the feds to get involved. Unfortunately,that isn't the case here.

JMHO

This is honestly not a sarcastic remark from me. You have a better grasp on life than the majority on this board or in thsi world being that your view above holds true. I respect that more than you'll ever know. I branched out to follow my dream and lived it for 7 years, hardest thing I ever did. I don't regret it in the least. Love where I live and have made numerous close friends and run around constantly. The difference between you and I is age. You are married with older kids. I moved when I was 23, I'm only 31 now. If a young kid can't find a job in an area due to limitations beyond control he/she should leave and explore on their own. You can always move back home, you can't always move away and explore. I can tell how close you are with your family, I'm just as close with mine. If a kid thinks long term, he can easily move to where a job is - establsh himself and then be frontrunner for the job back home if he so chooses. Sacrifice goes a long way. My whole point, and Ralphie seems to be that way - isn't that we are cold-hearted - we believe in doing what has to be done rather than complain about it. Goes back to the old fable - give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. You are speaking about the minority in minimum wage jobs - widows, etc. Ralphie and I are speaking about the norm.

I'm not sure how Ralphie feels,but I see very little comparison between the two of you at all.
JMHO

I believe they are in the minority, however that does not mean they should be ignored just because they are. It also does not make then stupid, or lazy. Also when it comes to taxing the rich.... Robin Hood was a popular guy <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ralphie is not the most compassionate guy around but generally only one person can be the most at anything.
Compassion stems from character and understanding and in such is a personal/private emotion.
Too often those on the right are too involved with the 5 Ps...Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. They believe hard work and action must lead to success and only personal failures stand in your way. The demand for action first clouds their emotions on this subject.
Too often those on the left are too involved with their own emotions[compassion,empathy,brotherhood and charity] to realize that hard work and life style changes may in fact be absolutely necessary for success. Their emotions cloud the need for actions.

Regardless where we all fall on this line of emotions we must realize that some folks need help immediately and some folks will always need help immediately and some folks just don't want to change the conditions that affects them even if they could.

We are bound by the fact that we are Americans to assist all in dire need,but we are all equally responsible to persuade the least of us to improve where they can.

I agree wholeheartidly! That's why we agree that a fair wage should be available for those willing to work,but not big on government giveaway programs for those who are not willing to work.

<img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />