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Help me out... if a player opts out under a player option and goes somewhere else, we owe him nothing right?
yebat' Putin
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Here is #Jaguars offer sheet Alex Mack will be signing tomorrow: 5 years, $42M. It’s $18M over 2 with player option after ’15. Can’t tag him
Ian Rapoport, Twitter
So we are actually saving money with Mack signing this contract. I don't see how we don't match it.
So basically we are renting him for two years. What's the guaranteed money? 18 million? Or is it more? And we CAN'T tag him after two years. So he is GONE in two seasons. Period. ALL the guaranteed cash goes on the first two years. Why the hell would we do that? Better to draft a center now and pay him WAY less. How is it saving money to pay him a LOT more than any other center in the league? All I can say is if we match, Mack better put this team on his shoulders and get us some wins. It's on him if he's getting that kind of money. I expect Tate to get 1500 yrds and 15 TDs all right up the middle. Because Mack must be the greatest center to EVER play the game. Better than Mike Webster.... a first ballot Hall of Famer...
How many think Mack is THAT good?
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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Man, that agent took us to the woodshed... 
Not really.... 9 mill a year for two years.
That's a mill less than the tag for one year.. And less then the tag for 2 years.
The first question I have is, is there a NO TRADE CLAUSE. If there isn't, then this is easy,, we trade him back to the Jags right away for a 1st next year or this year or two 2nd rounders. One this year and one next or some combination of picks.. That way, he gets what he wants (out) we get picks, the Jags get their guy.
WIN WIN WIN
yeah I do n ot know how to do that purple thing
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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there's a reason it exists, tld...
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2nd String
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What?
It'll avg to 9 mil a year... isn't the next guy making like 8.1 on avg? That's not that much more and Mack is the best center in the league.
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We owe him nothing of the remaining contract. So the 3rd year is guaranteed unless he voids it in which case we'd owe him nothing for that 3rd year.
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the only guarantee we know for sure in $8 mil the third year.. if he stays. if not we owe him nothing.
Kalil (sp) makes 8.2 mil we will pay 9 mil... too much? probably... but it solves the problem for at least two years and allows us to convince him we are pointed due north and make him want to stay or two years to find / groom his replacement.
As far as renting... you can make that argument about any player under any contract
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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But I don't think he ever wanted out. He wanted to get paid after testing the market. He's getting that.
As mentioned above, is there a direct quote from Alex that he indeed wanted out (and/or still wants out)?
Last I saw was that he would be more than willing to play out the two years in Cleveland if we match.
I agree.
I think that Banner turned him off a bit, because he wasn't going to approve a big deal for Mack. Mack then called a suspension of contract talks during the season, and Banner said something about maybe sliding Greco to Center. Then the team had massive changes, so Mack explored his options. I suspect that this contract is on its way tot he NFL office to be approved, while the Browns also have a look ...... but I cannot see any way, based on what has been reported, that they walk away from him under this deal. We will still be able to carry over a sizable amount of cap room again, and that will help with our impending free agents. Since we are matching a free agent deal, we will lose the Transition Tag for the life of Mack's contract. That's why they used that tag and not the Franchise Tag. That Tag will be used for one of Haden, Cameron, or Gordon, if needed. I am really curious how far apart we are on numbers with Haden. This draft is supposed to be deep at CB ........ what if we wind up taking 2 high in this draft in case we can't re-sign Haden? Stranger things have happened.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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there's a reason it exists, tld...
I know, I know took me 5 minutes to figure out how to do it. 
#gmstrong
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Great deal for us. If Mack opts to leave after two years we owe nothing.. If he opts to stay we have him for the full five years. I don't mind him getting paid like this if his production is "Pro Bowl" caliber. If he under performs we will take a hit with the guarantees.
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All Pro
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JC
1 thing for certain: This deal beats whatever we had offered him. No way he signed for less, knowing we would match. And this is structured to their situation, not our's. We have to commit $$$ to 2015, our big year for expiring contracts.
This is why I wanted the Franchise Tag:
2014 is not a Cap Issue.
We'd have 6 months exclusive negotiations for his BIG Deal. Not this.
He'd be much easier to trade (or sign-trade) with an expiring tag than this.
We'd have time to groom his replacement.
Its not terrible. But we put ourselves in a box when all we had to do was pay him another $1.5 million.
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Legend
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j/c...
In 5 years when we will have to make a 2nd contract to our Franchise QB we will let Mack walk and have a successor already to take over 
Jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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JC
1 thing for certain: This deal beats whatever we had offered him. No way he signed for less, knowing we would match. And this is structured to their situation, not our's. We have to commit $$$ to 2015, our big year for expiring contracts.
This is why I wanted the Franchise Tag:
2014 is not a Cap Issue.
We'd have 6 months exclusive negotiations for his BIG Deal. Not this.
He'd be much easier to trade (or sign-trade) with an expiring tag than this.
We'd have time to groom his replacement.
Its not terrible. But we put ourselves in a box when all we had to do was pay him another $1.5 million.
what would consider a good center to be worth? $4 mil.. if so we have used an excess of $5 mil next year and 4 the years after that. Do not think that is a cap killer.
#gmstrong
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A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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If we sign it cool... if we dont.. its whatever..
we'll be fine regardless..
I want Mack to be a Brown.. but I'd rather those millions go to someone like Joe Haden..
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Legend
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Joe Haden is going to get his money either way. We will have $30 million (or more) in cap space next off-season.
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Mack is easily one of the very top premiere centers (still pretty young, very durable, zero off field problems) easily an elite talent...considering the Browns still have holes in numerous areas...its imperative to keep this guy around...hoping Cleveland matches the offer...and we can keep easily a top 3 NFL center on our roster...I have no problem giving #1 money to an elite proven talented player whom has zero off field issues and has showed and showcase he's easily in tops of the league
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JC
1 thing for certain: This deal beats whatever we had offered him. No way he signed for less, knowing we would match. And this is structured to their situation, not our's. We have to commit $$$ to 2015, our big year for expiring contracts.
I call BS on that. Unless you've read the contract of course. This deal he gets 18m guaranteed the first 2 years and has an opt out at that point. That is likely the reason he signed it. He might have gotten the 18m in the form of a signing bonus, but not the option to opt out after 2 years. That, I'm pretty sure is the reason he signed the deal.
As a matter of fact, I'd wager that when we offered him money, his agent asked for this and the Browns said no and that is why they tested the market - someone would say yes if they wanted him bad enough.
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Our current guys didn't really get a chance for an offer - the table was set prior. Banner was playing a little hardball and was waiting for the season to end to make the offer...then came the firings with Chud which really PO'd Mack and at that point had made up in his mind to leave Cleveland - Yeah no offer was made - shortly after as we hired our new coach the FO was fired. And the New Regime took over.
One of their first acts as a Group was to fly en mass to the West Coast and visit him. It was at this time he first said if he plays in Cleveland it won't be bad. The Tag was there cause it was too late for an offer as he was going to see what was out there in offers.
The agent seemed very bitter - Possibly there was burnt bridges with Banner vs Agent??? Banner does play hardball and is not known to be an agent friendly guy if I remember reading some things over the years.
That is complete BS!!!!
Please don't state things like that as fact. It is pure speculation. It's not based in fact and I have seen many reports to the contrary.
Btw------------agents have always respected Banner.
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Vers...no one gives a poop about Banner anymore...let it go
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That is complete BS!!!!
Agreed.
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What? I was quoting his post. Tell him to freaking let it go!!! Shessh..........y'all kill me w/your garbage.
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Isn't Jacksonville a candidate to move the franchise to LA, Mack could keep his surf board right there in SOCAL, now there is a back room deal.
Wouldn't that tick him off? Thinking he's moving to a state with no personal income tax, to one with about the highest in the known world.
Could be a reason Jacksonville thinks he'd go there.
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... More specifically, the center position is not worth the close to $10 million a year ...
I'm sure that's what Peyton Manning was thinking that split-second his first snap of the Super Bowl was sailing over his head into the end zone. 
Pro-Bowl O-linemen are gold in football. Yeah, I'd like to have him for half what he now stands to get, but except for QB, what position on offense is more important than the linemen??
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J/C Mack's not worth 7-9 million a year...the guy isn't even the best center in the league...Pouncey of the Steelers is as much as i hate to admit it...and Pouncey is just better, he is MUCH MUCH better...he pulls better, has better lateral movement, is stronger at the point of attack, and has better technique...Pouncey is a better center at every faucet of the game then Mack is, and I would be hard pressed to pay him that kind of money, let alone Mack. Let Mack go... the guy is obviously signing with another team hoping we don't match because he doens't want to be here...if he wanted to be here, he would have signed already....if he comes back next year, he will most likely miss all of training camp and will just hurt the team moving forward and will cause distractions we don't need. Mack is replaceable...we will be able to get a center of "comparable talent" or close in the 2nd rd of the draft this year for less money, younger, and a kid who actually will want to be here. We have some veterans on the Line like Thomas to help him along. Mack is overated by Browns fans because of his above-average play...had Pouncey not gotten hurt this year Mack would have never sniffed the Pro Bowl to begin with....thats a fact and everyone knows it. Mack is an above-average center...a B+ player at best...he isn't an A+ player like Thomas of Pouncey...he isn't worth that kinda money...he is way over valued here by the fan base.....We haven't been able to run the ball consistently for years...and Mack has been here all these years...the guy gets no push at all...he gets beaten at the point of attack just like our scrub guards do...Mack is part of the problem why we can't run the ball....change the guards and leave Mack and the results are the same...the guy gets no push...just because he hasn't been injured don't make him valuable or good. I know its hard to accept this, he is a Brown, us Browns fans all see things with Brown colored glasses, but Im telling you...Mack is so oeverated...he is every bit as overrated as Eric Wright was at CB only difference is Mack plays center...again if he was as good as he thinks he is...we wouldn't suck so much running up the middle...we have had quite a few different guards around him, yet the results are the same...at some point you have to stop blaming other people..... the only thing Mack has done consistently is not get hurt, and start a fight with Shaun Smith accusing him of grabbing his bag....I am honestly I know that may be a poor joke, but you get the idea. This is a defining moment for Haslam...he needs to set an example here just like the Rooney's would and refuse to play Mack's games and just move on....if Mack wanted to be here, he would have signed a long time ago....at some point its time to walk away....no way you would see the Rooney's acting like this....catering and playings Mack's game, they would have moved on or traded him already....one man is not that valuable...one man don't make a team...and paying a Center that kind of money is just poor financial management....I am not against giving a guy a fair raise....if he performs well, but 7-9 mill a year is just way to steep for a center...the guy better be the next coming of Mike Webster to get paid that kinda money at center....
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... More specifically, the center position is not worth the close to $10 million a year ...
I'm sure that's what Peyton Manning was thinking that split-second his first snap of the Super Bowl was sailing over his head into the end zone.
Pro-Bowl O-linemen are gold in football. Yeah, I'd like to have him for half what he now stands to get, but except for QB, what position on offense is more important than the linemen??
How is it the centers fault because he couldn't hear the cadence? It wouldn't have mattered who they ahd a center...Manning said he couldn't even hear himself speak the cadence let alone expect his center to be able to hear it...that bumbled snap was a communication error, it had nothing to do with the center's talent.....thats a poor example to use....any center in the league could have had the same thing happen to them in those conditions....besides thats not the reason they lost the game, they lost the game because the O never got rolling or executed their gameplan for the other 59:30 seconds of the game.
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But I don't think he ever wanted out. He wanted to get paid after testing the market. He's getting that.
As mentioned above, is there a direct quote from Alex that he indeed wanted out (and/or still wants out)?
Last I saw was that he would be more than willing to play out the two years in Cleveland if we match.
I don't know what he wanted. He said he wanted to be here, I'll take him at his word..
Let me rephrase it, mack gets what he wants (money and flexibility), how's that??
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Mack is overated by Browns fans
Well, then he's overrated by damn near every team and the media. So, who's right, you or everyone else? LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Let me rephrase it, mack gets what he wants (money and flexibility), how's that??
Agree.
I just want this "ordeal" to resolve itself soon. I'm not worried either way, I'm just sick of talking about it.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Mack is overated by Browns fans
Well, then he's overrated by damn near every team and the media. So, who's right, you or everyone else? LOL
Does the media not sensationalize a lot of stories Daman? have they not been inaccurate many times in the last few years?
Look Daman, I am not saying Mack is a total bum, Infact I wouldn't be opposed to keeping him for "
The right price", but that price is not 7-9 mil per year.
Now if Mack wants 3-4 mill per year, I am all ears, lets talk...thats a fair number for his position and his play...9 mill a year for a center of his talent is just crazy...he is not worth Joe Thomas kinda money, and he don't have Thomas kinda talent....9 mill a year could be better invested elsewhere as this team has many holes as it is.
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~ Legend
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JT also got his deal 3 years ago. We just have a lot of inflation in the NFL, so Mack deserves this.
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Do I want Alex Mack at the expense of losing Joe Haden, Jordan Cameron, Josh Gordon, or Phil Taylor, et al? Actually, I don't think that I do.
We currently have around $30 million left in cap room. The Mack deal takes away $10 million. That leaves us with $20 million. We sign all of our rookies, that takes the cap down to about $13 million. We then roll that $13 million over to next year and the cap increases another $10 million.
We will have plenty of room again next season.
First, we don't know what the actual cap increase will be.
Second, even if you go into the next season rolling over $13 million and adding $10 million more, that takes you to $23 million. You'll have competition with more dollars than you heading into the 2015 free agency period. Why tie up that money in Mack when you can use that $13 million you're talking about rolling over and the $10 million from the Mack transition tag and giving that money now, divvying it up and giving it to the players that would be free agents next year and avoid them becoming free agents.
I think that's a better plan than inking a short-term (2 year) deal with Mack and giving him LT money. Sorry, I don't get that thought process.
The Browns wanted to give him a 3-year deal and he says that he wanted a longer term deal. Fact is, the deal is really a 2-year deal with whatever team he signs with followed by a possible 3-year hostage situation with Mack holding a gun to the head of the team's front office.
No thanks. If it were me I'd say, "Sayonara!"
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Match the offer, then trade him to Jax.
Why? You take a $20 mil cap hit this season (the fully guaranteed salary) and get what in return? Let him sign with Jax outright and retire a wealthy man in 5 years.
Why would you take a 20 mil cap hit? You trade him with contract intact. Jax assumes it. If you let him walk you get nothing, trade him to Jax and you get something even if it's not much it's better than we'd get now. If Jax doesn't want to trade, you have him for two more years at least. If he wants out I'd rather let him go but get something for a former 1st rounder.
You take the cap hit for the fully guaranteed portion of the contract outside of the base salary portion. If it is structured as $1 million base salaries with $9/year signing bonus in each of the first two years, the Browns would have to eat $18 million in cap hit penalties this year if they traded him. The team that received him would only have to pay the salary portion of his contract.
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But those guys, by your philosophy, have also done nothing to help this team win more than 4 or 5 games a year since they've been here.
Not quite. Gordon and Cameron have done quite a lot (scoring TDs) to help the team win. You could make the case for Haden and Taylor. The difference is that the positions that they play is more critical to a team's success than Mack's (and yes, I've heard the talk about the center position becoming more important.) Truth is that Haden & Taylor are better at their positions than Mack is at his and their performances are more important to the team's success than Mack's.
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Why shouldn't we just let any of our players go?
Because the market won't allow you to keep them all. Personally, I would keep Taylor over Haden. I think he's performed better, but Haden is still a quality corner and you can't have enough of them.
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Where do you draw the line? If you don't want to pay our PB center, why do you want to keep our non PB DT, Taylor? Has he helped us win?Haden hasn't helped us win more than 5 games. Why do want to keep him at the expense of losing Mack?
I draw the line at how much value I am getting for the dollars that are spent on a player's performance. He's a Pro Bowl center and that means nothing. How much is Super Bowl winning center (also a Pro Bowler) making? Well, the answer is here. Is Mack worth more than Unger? Not in my book, but what do I know? Apparently not much.
To me, it's silly decisions like this that are the reasons why the Browns continue to suck. Frankly, I would look to off-load Joe Thomas too.
My philosophy would be to have constantly fresh bodies on my team. You have to turn the soil over for the crops to grow. You have to rotate the crops to keep the soil fertile and even leave a field to be fallow for a season or so to replenish itself.
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I'm not getting your 'dump our players because they don't help us win' philosophy.
Isn't the point to succeed and win as many games as you can? To put the best product on the field? Well, it appears to be obvious that the team hasn't been winning and hasn't been putting a good product on the field.
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If we sign it cool... if we dont.. its whatever..
we'll be fine regardless..
I want Mack to be a Brown.. but I'd rather those millions go to someone like Joe Haden..
We can pay both, and Gordon and Cameron. It's not like we have a QB making Tom Brady money on our roster and if we draft a QB in the first we have him on his rookie contract for 5 years.
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Is Cameron really worth it? I mean, truthfully there are about 3-5 guys every NFL draft who has the same skill set as he does. Heck, we could take a flyer on Colt Lyerla or AC Leonard in the 6th and be just as productive imo. The same could be said of Sheard. Yes, he's talented, but we have Mingo and Kruger already so do we really need him?
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Cam needs to prove himself over a few years before he gets the big money IMO. Sheard has earned his paycheck. He has been successful at anything we have asked him to do so far in his career.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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How many think Mack is THAT good?
Mack would be making as much (or very nearly as much) as Joe Thomas, the team's LT. Seriously! That's INSANE!
Let him walk!
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jc
It kills me some of the nonsense some of you post about mack. Not a top five center? Don't deserve the money? Your kidding right?
Mack is hands down one of the best centers in the league. He NEVER gets beat up the middle. NEVER. Even though he plays against the most elite NTs in the game. YOU dont understand how valuable that is because Mack has spoiled you. NORMAL centers cant hack it here. They just end up on thier arse like faine used to do. A guy who turned into a probowler once he didnt have to fight the NT in our division yet barely avg here.
YES, they need to keep mack and he is almost as important as Joe because without an elite Center there is no pocket for a QB to even think of stepping up into. Once we fix the guard situation if it isn't already.
Mack is just going to be making the normal excalation for top talent at his position. It ALWAYS goes up and the cap is going up again anyways. Just get used to veteran players making more money.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 23,847
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 23,847 |
I like mack and all but to say he never gets beat up the middle makes me wonder if you watch the games..lol, and as far as being as important as joe, i wouldn't even go half that far. Bottom line is centers aren't usually that important when the rest of the line is good. Do I want to resign mack, absolutely, for continuity sake, do I think he's worth 9 million a year...nope. But he is a vet, he's very durable and he's def. a plus level player. Market dictated his contract, we have the cap space so he will be a brown for the next 2 years and we saved some money in the process. I think resigning him is win/win for both sides.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Quote:
If we sign it cool... if we dont.. its whatever..
we'll be fine regardless..
I want Mack to be a Brown.. but I'd rather those millions go to someone like Joe Haden..
We can pay both, and Gordon and Cameron. It's not like we have a QB making Tom Brady money on our roster and if we draft a QB in the first we have him on his rookie contract for 5 years.
Sure, but it will cost us one or two of Sheard, Taylor and Rubin. The question, long term, becomes: are two more seasons of Mack worth 4-5 seasons of Taylor/Sheard?
The way the contract is structured, he WILL opt out 100%, as by then the contracts go up and his contract goes down. It's a GREAT deal for Mack, who gets guaranteed money in for two seasons, he normally would have only gotten for long term deals....and after those two years, he can do the same again. His agent DID deliver.
I'm torn on matching. I'd rather sign Sheard or Taylor long term than have him one more season
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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