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Quote:
I certainly hope "many in football" are wrong, because while Carr looks like a world-beater when throwing passes in drills, he looks like Mark Sanchez when there are actually players playing defense against him.
Couch, Frye, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden...I've liked none of them and view Carr in the same ilk.
I don't know...I hadn't paid much attention to him but from what I have seen it looks like he throws just fine. Really fine for that matter. I saw him pressured and he wasn't falling apart in the clips I saw.....but you guys know more about it than I.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I really hope this is talking heads. Just hearing this drums up the "here we go again" theme in my head.
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I certainly hope "many in football" are wrong, because while Carr looks like a world-beater when throwing passes in drills, he looks like Mark Sanchez when there are actually players playing defense against him.
Couch, Frye, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden...I've liked none of them and view Carr in the same ilk.
I don't know...I hadn't paid much attention to him but from what I have seen it looks like he throws just fine. Really fine for that matter. I saw him pressured and he wasn't falling apart in the clips I saw.....but you guys know more about it than I.
I agree. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, which I think is what's going on here.
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Quote:
Quote:
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I certainly hope "many in football" are wrong, because while Carr looks like a world-beater when throwing passes in drills, he looks like Mark Sanchez when there are actually players playing defense against him.
Couch, Frye, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden...I've liked none of them and view Carr in the same ilk.
I don't know...I hadn't paid much attention to him but from what I have seen it looks like he throws just fine. Really fine for that matter. I saw him pressured and he wasn't falling apart in the clips I saw.....but you guys know more about it than I.
I agree. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, which I think is what's going on here.
Possibly so. Too bad that first impressions carry such weight. If your first impression of Teddy was his pro day, you would be laughing as you left half way through the session.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Does Mary K like Carr, because if she does...everyone should run.
She actually had the browns drafting him at 4 in a mock draft that espn.com or nfl.com was doing with reporters from each teams city. insane.
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I've heard that in more than one place...
I really hope it isnt the case.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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steve, I watched the guy all stinking year. And you know I have. I kept posting updates on all the qbs I watched throughout the year.
I liked him at first. He has good size. Good arm. His coaches said he is smart. He is vocal. But, once I saw him face pressure, I changed my mind.
It was NOT a first impression.
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Mary Kay also had us drafting G. Smith last year in round one.
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OK, yes, you're right. It was not a first impression. It was just from one game, though, if I'm reading your posts correctly. 12/19 (Two days before the Bowl) https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1101528Quote:
Carr looked good in that game vs. Fales.
I really worry about him being like his brother, though. A lot of people put all the blame on David Carr's OL, and they were bad, but the elder Carr couldn't read coverages and held the ball way too long. Very similar problems that Timid had and Weeden has. There are rumblings that the younger Carr suffers from the same issue.
I can't stand a QB who holds the ball too long. They make their lines look bad. They make their receivers look bad. They alienate teammates because the press and fans blame the OL for poor protection and the receivers for not getting open. While Carr has some very good skills, I really worry about his ability to read coverages.
In fact, that is my concern w/almost every single QB that is still in college. That doesn't mean they can't read coverages, it's just they haven't been asked to do so very often. The top two guys who have read coverages are probably Bridgewater and Bortles. I feel they are the safest guys. The big dude at LSU---Mettenberger--also reads coverages, but I think that guy is an injury waiting to happen.
It's going to be a tough call for our FO on how to solve this problem. Lot's of risky decisions.
12/15
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1100138
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Another guy..........and I wrote about him on Thanksgiving weekend is David Fales from San Jose State. I watched the game [I think it was that Friday night after Turkey day] to watch more of Carr. While Carr played well, he still made some of the mistakes his brother was infamous for.......meaning he didn't always show poise in the pocket and held it too long. Carr was better than I thought, but I absolutely despise QBs who hold the ball too long---and so do their offensive linemen.
12/8
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1098020
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One of the reasons I took so long to take the younger Carr seriously was because how putrid I thought his brother was.
I know he took a lot of sacks and I heard all the excuses that I heard for Timid and Weeden about how his OL was horrible.
I don't think he played behind a good OL. They were bad. However, the guy did the same thing Timid and Weeden did. He held the ball too long because he could not read coverages.
Some will argue that Carr was forever ruined because of the early beatings, but I think the fact that he sucked wherever he went is further proof of my contention that the guy could not read coverages and thus was relegated to a journeyman that couldn't win a starting job anywhere.
12/4
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1097204
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--I like Carr's skill set, but his brother scares me. They are similar qbs. David Carr always held the ball too long. He had Timid Couch and Brandon Weeden disease. People wanna blame their lines. I blame slow-witted Qbs.
12/3
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1096830
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I posted this somewhere else, but I guess it fits better here since you guys are talking about Fales and Carr.
Wow. Two pretty good QBs.
I watched this game because I wanted to see more of Carr. I admit I came away impressed. I think I might have to take back some of my negative comments. Here is what I saw:
--Excellent arm strength
--Very good accuracy
--Quick release
--Delivered the ball on-time for the most part
--Decent athlete
--Got a lot of time to throw, hard to judge how he deals w/pressure
--Zipped the ball and showed good touch on other throws
--Coach on the field
Your concerns about him after one game (within mostly praise) was that he held the ball too long. That turned into over time (with only referencing the same game over and over) that his brother can't read coverages, which turned into you think he might not be able to read read coverages, to he can't read coverages.
Then... the USC game happened. After starting the game off beautifully, actually, he injures his shoulder in the first quarter, but stays in to play the whole game. Then, *this* is your opinion.
12/23
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1102919
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I think the biggest differences [and they are huge] between Bridgewater and Carr are that Carr panics under pressure and he doesn't read defenses and coverages well. Meanwhile, Teddy seems to excel in those areas.
12/22
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1102223
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I want no part of Carr. If we draft him, I will make Dj look a positive poster in terms of what I think about our FO.
Carr finally faced a defense w/some talent on it. You could visibly see how nervous he was. He was scared to death of the pass rush and it wasn't even that fierce. The announcers kept talking about the pass rush but it was less severe than what the kid will see in the NFL.
Some notes:
--Terrible footwork in terms of his mechanics. He kept getting his feet switched around, ala Timid back in the day. You aren't going to be accurate when you throw w/your right foot in front of your left.
--Speaking of accuracy, he missed three wide open WR deep. No one near them. Just plain out missed them. Several other throws were behind the receivers. Others were high. Some low. Terrible accuracy.
--Pocket presence was awful. He did not buy time in the pocket. He panicked at the snap. No awareness of exactly where defenders were. Did not buy time in the pocket.
--Reading coverages? Hard to tell because he fired it so quick because he was panicking on almost every single throw.
--Reading defenses? He threw that stupid bubble screen even when USC put 3 to 4 guys out there.
Conclusion: No way would I want this kid on our team. I don't care if he was available in the 3rd round, 5th round, or even the 7th. He is going to be one of those guys that makes his teammates look worse and will be a coach killer.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1102239
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My biggest issue w/Carr: He played scared. I would never want that in a QB. Never.
12/28
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1103698
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That is an euphemism for saying he played scared.
I am not kidding you guys about this: I would not draft Carr under any circumstances. You can't win w/guys like that. Other positions, such as the OL and receivers take the blame for them. Coordinators take more blame. Head coaches take the blame. We have seen this before.
You never want your leader on the field to be soft. I will be very upset if the Browns draft Carr. That move will be akin to us drafting Timid. They will have to stick w/the guy for several years. It will set this franchise back years.
Which of course, by January, became this...
1/9
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1108812
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Carr is a wuss, just like his brother. Panics at the first sign of pressure. Gets happy feet. Will take a lot of sacks and will be inaccurate in the pros. I wouldn't even draft that guy. But yeah..........he has a great arm and great size.
1/21
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1112906
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I would not touch him w/a ten foot pole.
The guy gets too nervous when pressured, His footwork falls apart and he becomes wildly inaccurate. He is not a gamer. He is not a leader. He is a wuss.
Reminds me of Timid and his brother. No thanks.
1/23
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1113337
Quote:
Carr: I don't like a guy who looks scared in the pocket. Can't win w/a guy like that.
So, yes. You are right. It's not your first impression. It is actually very different than your first impression. But it is based off of one game (in which he played more than three quarters of it injured, showing what a "wuss" he is) and what you remember about his brother.
You are certainly entitled to form your opinion on that, and it doesn't make it any less valid than mine and I know you have watched a lot of games from different QBs this year. But try to not lose perspective on what you're judging him based off of.
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I just figured out the main reason we shouldn't draft Carr..   No sir.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Derek Carr, Browns to continue pre-draft flirtations in ClevelandBY DAVID WHITE The Fresno BeeApril 21, 2014 Former Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr is considered by most to be first-round pick material. The Cleveland Browns need a quarterback and own two first-round picks. This week, the Browns will get another chance to see if Carr is their perfect match. Carr will travel to Cleveland this week to meet with the Browns at their team facility, according to a source familiar with the scheduled meeting. This comes three weeks after Browns coaches and officials flew out to Fresno State for a private workout and interviews with Carr. Cleveland clearly needs a quarterback and can use either the No. 4 or No. 26 overall picks in the first round to select a franchise arm during the NFL Draft on May 8-10. The Browns are also taking hard looks at other quarterbacks in the draft, including Teddy Bridgewater and Johnny Manziel. If they are going above and beyond due diligence to do so, it's understandable. They've yet to get the quarterback position mastered since the NFL returned to Cleveland in 1999. Since then, the Browns have drafted three quarterbacks in the first round: Tim Couch (No. 1 in 1999), Brady Quinn (No. 22 in 2007) and Brandon Weeden (No. 22 in 2012), which goes a long ways toward explaining their 13 losing seasons in 15 years. As far as franchise quarterbacks go, Carr has impressed NFL teams in the interview room throughout the draft process. He is consistently rated as the best pro-style quarterback in the class, and his arm strength is second to none. That said, he is also consistently rated by draft pundits as the fourth-best prospect in a quarterback class led by Bridgewater, Manziel and Blake Bortles. Carr has bristled at the notion, saying recently on NFL Network that he considers himself the top quarterback prospect in the draft. "I know what teams are telling me in these meetings, so I feel very good about where I'm at," Carr said last month. Carr has also had visits to Jacksonville, Tampa Bay and Tennessee, along with extensive interviews in Fresno with the Raiders and Vikings.
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If he is the guy....take him at #4. Don't fool around and wait for #26 or trading up at some point. If we want to trade up, trade up for one of the corners.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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If he is the guy....take him at #4. Don't fool around and wait for #26 or trading up at some point. If we want to trade up, trade up for one of the corners.
While I have my concerns about him, I agree, if he's the guy, don't be stupid, just take him.
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if he's the guy, don't be stupid, just take him.
What's the difference? Hey-OHHH!!! 
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If he is the guy....take him at #4. Don't fool around and wait for #26 or trading up at some point. If we want to trade up, trade up for one of the corners.
While I have my concerns about him, I agree, if he's the guy, don't be stupid, just take him.
Goes back to my argument in the other topic. If you don't like Carr at 4, do not even think of taking him at 26...
I like Carr. I don't know about first round material though. He looks the part. He has a nice arm, he seems very smart. I don't care what his brother's career looked like, if anything that may benefit him. There should not be one thing in his career that surprises him. I'm sure he has heard all about it.
I have no problems with the Browns taking him at 4, if they love him. Says to me that they did their homework and found their guy. That's more important to me than seeing them draft the guy I want. I want them to get 100% behind one of these guys so we can move forward.
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Quote:
If he is the guy....take him at #4. Don't fool around and wait for #26 or trading up at some point.
I agree. If he is the guy that the powers that be decide is the right guy for this team, then don't screw around. If he is a franchise level QV, then there is no sense hanging around and hoping that he'll still be there at 26. (and I am not advocating whether or not he is a guy we should take, or not .....)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
If he is the guy....take him at #4. Don't fool around and wait for #26 or trading up at some point.
I agree. If he is the guy that the powers that be decide is the right guy for this team, then don't screw around. If he is a franchise level QV, then there is no sense hanging around and hoping that he'll still be there at 26. (and I am not advocating whether or not he is a guy we should take, or not .....)
I'll take this one further, if you identify your guy..whether it be Carr or any other QB, we have the ammunition right now to move up and get him. If your convictions are he is the one, go get him. Don't pray no one else on the staff of 31 other franchises feel the same way you do, only to lose him to one of the 3 picks in front of you.
Only if you are convinced there is little difference between 2-3 QBs should you pass on moving up to get him. If you are convinced any of them are convincing enough, don't take one no matter what happens at the 3 picks before you...
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Does Mary K like Carr, because if she does...everyone should run.
She actually had the browns drafting him at 4 in a mock draft that espn.com or nfl.com was doing with reporters from each teams city. insane.
I hope all this carr love is just a smoke screen. imo that the "s" on his shirt does not stand for superman. I think it stands for sucks.
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jc
This is going to be a little off topic...sort of....But I was wondering what thought people had about Savage out of Pitt. ( I just haven't seen his name in any of the QB discussions)
They say he could have the best arm in this draft.....which is what the hype over Carr is...
Savage has the size at 6'-4" and 228#
Looking at the little tape he had I saw a guy who did a great job in the pocket as a DLineman was coming right on top of him and he just made his throw right in the face of the rush.
He is not perfect by any means...two time transfer...the first time due to some immaturity at Rutgers. He started as a true freshman. Four games into his sophomore season he got hurt...lost his job to the replacement...he was upset about that and transferred to Arizona...Sat out that year...and Stoops is fired...in comes Rich Rodriguez who likes ultra mobile spread option QB's....So he transferred to Pitt for a better Offensive system. The interviews say he handles the transfer issue incredibly well.
He also stares down his receivers some. and while not considered a mobile QB he can run and is far better than watching Bernie try to scramble...LOL
They say he has improved greatly every year...
As far as QB's in this draft...I like Bridgewater LATE (but not at 4), I like Garrapolo and Mettenberger...Carr is a quandary to me...I don't dislike him, but I am not in love with him either...he does throw a pretty ball tho...And I am starting to like this Savage kid...
So I was really wondering if anyone watched the kid play, has any opinion on him, or has any comments concerning him...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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13. Tom Savage, Pittsburgh 6'4", 230# Round: 6
Possesses good arm strength. Decent accuracy at mid range, good accuracy short from the pocket, but misses badly deep. Will go through progressions but doesn't read zone coverage well. Needs to make quicker decisions. Would benefit by tightening up his footwork. Highly inconsistent, as he will follow a beautiful, accurate throw with an awful one. Mediocre athleticism. Has ball security issues that seem to stem from focus issues. Difficult to evaluate since he is under a lot of pressure behind a poor offensive line. (vs. Notre Dame, Florida State, Miami, North Carolina)
Last edited by clevesteve; 04/22/14 01:47 PM.
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I dont think Manziel nor Carr make it out of the top 10. If you want either of those better take them at 4.
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ìfont class="small">Quote:
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13. Tom Savage, Pittsburgh 6'4", 230# Round: 6
Possesses good arm strength. Decent accuracy at mid range, good accuracy short from the pocket, but misses badly deep. Will go through progressions but doesn't read zone coverage well. Needs to make quicker decisions. Would benefit by tightening up his footwork. Highly inconsistent, as he will follow a beautiful, accurate throw with an awful one. Mµdiocre athleticism. Has ball security issues that seem to stem from focus issues. Difficult to evaluate since he is under a lot of pressure behind a poor offensive line. (vs. Notre Dame, Florida State, Miami, North Carolina)
From what I have seen, I am pretty much in agreement. I would add:
1 - he has a very live arm. The ball really has some zip on it.
2 - He has this ine¨plicable desire to throw into triple coverage. Watched several games and there are an inordinate number of throws into triple coverage. Not even double coverage but truly triple coverage.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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So isn't it draft time yet? What 16 days? enough already...
Manziel at 4...Hoyer starts and keeps his job cause he kicks butt. and we take Savage in the 5th round.
Are you ready for some Football!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I saw that too...
Wonder if it was the read or just hey this is what I wanna try.
Kid throws it well...I've seen his stock skyrocket in the last week...in that I've seen him go as early as the 2nd in some mocks. To Minnesota.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I really don't know why know one is LOOKING at Mettenburger! Think about his Pocket Presence ALONE.. His ARM Strength... And MOST of All Able to READ DEFENSES!!!  We haven't even brought him in for a LOOK! 1a Zach Mettenburger QB LSU 1b bpa @ cb 2 Jarvis Landry WR LSU Every pick from here on out BPA for NEED!!!
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Quote:
I really don't know why know one is LOOKING at Mettenburger!
Think about his Pocket Presence ALONE..
His ARM Strength...
And MOST of All Able to READ DEFENSES!!!
We haven't even brought him in for a LOOK!
1a Zach Mettenburger QB LSU
1b bpa @ cb
2 Jarvis Landry WR LSU
Every pick from here on out BPA for NEED!!!
Wait, what. . .
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You sure went though a lot of work to prove something. Not sure what it was? But, good effort.
I am actually thankful you posted all of those posts. It might help educate other people. Thanks.
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Quote:
Quote:
2 - He has this inexplicable desire to throw into triple coverage. Watched several games and there are an inordinate number of throws into triple coverage. Not even double coverage but truly triple coverage
If your goal was to word that in a way to get audible laughter, you succeeded. 
Laughter was not my intent. Hopefully it got my point across though.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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My issue with Mettenberger is that he is a poor decision maker. Though unlike Savage who has the propensity to favor the triple covered receiver, Mettenberger only throws to the WR being double covered, ignoring the wide open WR on the other side of the field.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Not to mention that he is an erratic thrower and even worse.................he stands still in the pocket w/his front leg planted firmly in the turf.............which will lead to serious knee injuries.
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j/c
Carr scares me a lot. I just don't see the quick decision making. I see him throwing a lot of screens that inflate his stats.
He sucked in the USC game, and now a couple weeks before the draft it comes out he was injured-- yeah, not buying it.
Man, if Carr is the guy, I sure hope they have done their homework on him.
I am strongly in favor of drafting two QB's- both early. One in the first and come back in the 3rd and take another. If these QB's all have flaws, and we have the extra picks- take a few shots and get it right. I would love to see Murray or McCarron in the third.
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Legend
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Legend
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It comes out a couple weeks before the draft? It was obvious in the game. He got hurt on a hit by George Uko that sent his shoulder into the ground funny in the first quarter on a play that was nullified by a penalty.
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Dawg Talker
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Personally I think the single most important thing for a QB is his head. Not smarts or wonderlic per se but coverage reading, quick decision making, accurate judgement and ability to handle pressure. Everything else comes after that. What foot he throws off of, accuracy, arm strength, measurements....everything. None of it matters if the head isn't right. Not that the other stuff isn't also important but the head stuff is the what everything else is built on. It's why Russel Wilson plays above his physical talents and why Weeden does not. Whenever I read "can't read defenses" or skittish or holds onto the ball too long, regularly throws into risky coverage or the like it's the first and most serious devaluation in my mind. I'm doubtful that ever changes or is really at all coachable. I'm not a coach so I don't really know but those kinds of things I generally think of as being the kind of traits you're either born with or aren't. If I was GM with some serious financial resources I'd put a lot of energy into figuring out ways of testing and measuring those kinds of mental functions in empirical ways.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Quote:
j/c
Carr scares me a lot. I just don't see the quick decision making. I see him throwing a lot of screens that inflate his stats.
He sucked in the USC game, and now a couple weeks before the draft it comes out he was injured-- yeah, not buying it.
Man, if Carr is the guy, I sure hope they have done their homework on him.
I am strongly in favor of drafting two QB's- both early. One in the first and come back in the 3rd and take another. If these QB's all have flaws, and we have the extra picks- take a few shots and get it right. I would love to see Murray or McCarron in the third.
I'd like to see them draft two QB's also.
Should the Browns draft two QB's?
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Hall of Famer
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OP
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Quote:
Personally I think the single most important thing for a QB is his head. Not smarts or wonderlic per se but coverage reading, quick decision making, accurate judgement and ability to handle pressure. Everything else comes after that. What foot he throws off of, accuracy, arm strength, measurements....everything. None of it matters if the head isn't right. Not that the other stuff isn't also important but the head stuff is the what everything else is built on.
I have a hard time arguing this point.
I used to think stupidity is bliss... but there is a comprehension level there that needs to happen. QB's need to be very cerebral and it's not just book smart either. There is logic and understanding concepts as they develop. It's also the wits to adjust on the fly. Your "street smarts" if you will.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
2 - He has this inexplicable desire to throw into triple coverage. Watched several games and there are an inordinate number of throws into triple coverage. Not even double coverage but truly triple coverage.
When you are going to enter the draft ... if you are not on the radar. you get yourself on the radar.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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Legend
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I was very adamant, earlier, about the Browns getting 2 QBs... but now I'd like to modify that a little.
It depends on who we grab first. If we get Bortles (a project QB taken high) then I don't want another project QB (what all the other QBs are outside of the top 3) taken lower in the draft. No thank you for 2 projects at the QB position in one draft.
If we take Bridgewater and even Manziel (you can, at least, make the argument that he's not a project), then you take 2 QBs.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Quote:
It comes out a couple weeks before the draft? It was obvious in the game. He got hurt on a hit by George Uko that sent his shoulder into the ground funny in the first quarter on a play that was nullified by a penalty.
funny, i don't really recall him being looked at by the training staff???? Anybody else recall that??? The only thing i remember is how poorly he played against a top tier defense (and USC was down last year).
If they go Carr, i just hope they have done their homework- i have some serious doubts about him. But hey, i'm just an arm chair qb, so what do i know.
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Legend
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Legend
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It's a lame excuse. He was overthrowing guys by a mile right off the bat. Check out his footwork. The guy played scared.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Yea its a lame ass excuse almost as bad as forgetting to wear your glove lol.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 ‘Many in football’ believe
Cleveland Browns will draft Derek
Carr
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