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Toad who do you view as an elite guy for us at 4???
The OTs don't make a lot of sense do to the amount of $$$ we have tied up in the OL already.
Sure, you can argue that drafting one of the elite offensive tackles would tilt us offensive-line heavy, but that can't be a consideration if we have two really good players and a bunch of question marks. As it pertains to right guard and right tackle, they actually stunk. The Niners have proven investing highly in the offensive line isn't a bad thing, and one of the tackles IMHO are a lock over any of the QB's.
Regarding Watkins, I view him in a much more favorable light than you do, Willie. Sure, they have a high bust rate, but so do QB's, so do DT's, etc etc. He's a gamebreaker who reminds me very much of Crabtree when he was coming out, except he's got more explosion. I view him as less likely to fail than the QB's.
When it comes to Mack as being a position that we are already invested in, Sheard's contract is over after this season, and we both know when you talk about players who
"play like Jane" you're pointing the finger right at Mingo, and you'd be exactly right  He could very easily bust, and he certainly doesn't look like a full-time guy right now. I say that with the clear understanding that this was his rookie season so his learning curve is steep, but he's scrawny and it's a huge stretch to believe he's going to get measurably bigger and stronger. Furthermore, I'd love Mack at MLB. You're not just taking a 2-down run-stuffer, you're taking a play-maker who can rush the passer from anywhere on the field.
A few months ago I'd stated I wasn't sure there was a 1st round QB in this draft, but acknowledged that the need for QB's would likely drive these guys up to the top of the 1st. I'm now surprised there's so much chatter at how they aren't 1st round QB's. I actually think that's going to turn one more time right before the draft as QB-needy teams get sweaty palms and fold, hehe.
I know there's been a growing sentiment in recent years that "teams who need a QB and can get one at 3 shouldn't wait until later. Just take him." I don't agree with that. I never will. My belief stems from the thinking that too many QB's are reached on which sets them up for failure...and they often do. Part of the equation is some don't actually have the skills while others don't have time to develop. Thirdly, and this is one which I've seen very few people get on board with, is that if you hand the reigns to a guy like Charlie Freakin' Frye not only are you betting on a loser, you're also giving away years where you could have spent on another QB, one that either had the skills or you passed on building up another part of your team.
So no, man, I don't think we should take a QB at 4 just because we need one. There isn't a truly elite prospect in this draft at the QB position because they've all got some real questions. I'd rather take our biggest pick and take a better gamble. That's what teams who consistently win do, and something we've completely ignored in the last decade and a half. While all of these QB's are different in some ways, they are all very close as it pertains to overall grades so it almost becomes a case where you put the names in a hat and draw. One of them will be there at 26 or within striking distance of that pick, and with our extra selections, we can maneuver up if we so desire.
We're closer now than we've likely ever been in terms of matching up with the NFL on the overall talent scale but we're not quite there yet. If we don't know a QB is going to be good just skip him in favor of someone whose chances of failing are much lower, then grab one of the QB's later in the 1st.
Just look at the Bengals. If the team around the QB is good, the QB stands a much better chance of success. Dalton is no all-star but he looks good and the team wins because of the talent.
I see more Ponder's and Gabbert's in this draft than I do anyone close to a truly good bet. There's no point in doubling-down if we don't have to...and we don't have to.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The good thing about taking a tackle is having another Joe Thomas type player after JT retires in about 5-6 years.
Unless, of course, he has already gone to a new team in free agency before then.
I have this sneaking suspicion that we are going to take one of the more "prototypical" type QBs ........ maybe Bortles, or Carr. Just a guy feeling.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's what teams who consistently win do, and something we've completely ignored in the last decade and a half.
Let me guess those teams: Pats (Brady), Colts (Manning then Luck), 49ers (Kaep), Packers (Rodgers), Steelers (Big Ben), Ravens (Flacco).....its like all those teams have something in common...
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Dalton is no all-star but he looks good and the team wins because of the talent.
1st round exit after 1st round exit after 1st round exit....Now if you can be happy with 1st round exits and that's your ceiling more power to you. I want a QB who can win Superbowls and Daltons not one of them.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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I end to agree there amphibian.. I'm a bit underwhelmed with this class of QB's. If you take a look at who's going to be available next year.. I think it's a much better class of QB's.. take a look.. big tall QB's with good arms. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2015IMO.. drafting 2 QB's this year is not the right thing to do.. IF sites like Bleacher Report et al.. are correct we should be picking top ten again next year. The smart thing to do is take Sammy at 4.. see who falls to 26 or gamble on Carr and be done with it. I imagine Vers will be happy with me when He sees what I say next: IF Su'a-Filo is there at 35 we absolutely need to pull the trigger
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Am I wrong to be scared to see Braxton Miller as the #4 overall .... and Cliff Stoudt's kid as the 5th rated QB?  (and year, I know that most drafts might have only 2 really good QBs at best, before someone chimes in) 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's fair YT.. but also remember there's some guys that aren't on that list that should be.. for instance Hundley.. it's an incomplete list. I was just making a point.. also need to remember we will almost certainly be picking up a veteran QB.. I cannot see how we don't.
Drafting 2 QB's is a wrong move for us.. at least wait till 6th or 7th round for that. Just a developmental guy..
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We're in a position to draft non-starters because our team is well built enough that we just need a starting QB. We must take two this year no matter what, and if they don't work out then we need to take another one next year. We must get a QB no matter what. Planning to fail only leads to failure.
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CHS.. believe me, I understand what you're saying.. but IMO, there just aren't that many good QB's in this draft.
Let me ask you this.. do you think we will pick up a veteran QB?
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Well.. then that's the 2nd "drafted" QB.. right?
I find it hard to believe that we would draft for instance Manziel and Carr and keep our two current QB's AND pick up and keep a Vet..
Course I would assume Tanney gets cut..
Last edited by SaintDawg; 04/28/14 01:14 AM.
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That's not what I'm advocating at all. One early pick, one late pick and this only works in a situation where we do not pick up a veteran.
(Let's face it Tanney will be cut no matter what we do)
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Fair enough. Glad we could have a football conversation without the drama that seems to be plaguing the board lately.
Frankly, I think it's time we get a thread started entitled "What do you want to do in this draft?" Lets get it all out there..
Hopefully it can be a thread where we all state what we would do.. what you would like to see.. and have it steer clear of the bickering.
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BTW.. here's a better 2015 QB listing.. http://www.realsportshype.blogspot.com/2014/01/2015-quarterback-prospects.html1. Jameis Winston** Experience: Sophomore (RS) | School: Florida State Height: 6-4 | Weight: 235 lbs. Projected: Top 5 Pick 2013 Season Stats: 237-349, 3,820 Passing Yards (67.9% CMP), 38 TD, 10 INT (89.0 QBR); 4 Rushing TD 2. Marcus Mariota* Experience: Junior (RS) | School: Oregon Height: 6-4 | Weight: 218 lbs. Projected: Top 5 Pick 2013 Season Stats: 227-360, 3,412 Passing Yards (63.1% CMP), 30 TD, 4 INT (85.7 QBR); 81 Attempts, 582 Rushing Yards (7.2 YPC), 9 Rushing TD; Receiving TD 3. Brett Hundley Jr.* Experience: Junior (RS) | School: UCLA Height: 6-3 | Weight: 227 lbs. Projected: Top 15 Pick 2013 Season Stats: 232-342, 2,845 Passing Yards (67.8% CMP), 22 TD, 9 INT (75.4 QBR); 150 Attempts, 587 Rushing Yards (3.9 YPC), 9 Rushing TD; Receiving TD 4. Bryce Petty Experience: Senior (RS) | School: Baylor Height: 6-3 | Weight: 230 lbs. Projected: Round 1-2 2013 Season Stats: 220-356, 3,844 Passing Yards (61.8% CMP), 30 TD, 2 INT (80.6 QBR); 11 Rushing TD 5. Connor Cook* Experience: Junior (RS) | School: Michigan State Height: 6-4 | Weight: 219 lbs. Projected: Round 1-2 2013 Season Stats: 223-380, 2,755 Passing Yards (58.7% CMP), 22 TD, 6 INT (62.1 QBR); Rushing TD 6. Kevin Hogan* Experience: Junior (RS) | School: Stanford Height: 6-4 | Weight: 228 lbs. Projected: Round 2-3 2013 Season Stats: 170-277, 2,487 Passing Yards (61.4% CMP), 20 TD, 9 INT (73.0 QBR); 76 Attempts, 314 Rushing Yards (4.1 YPC), 2 Rushing TD 7. Sean Mannion Experience: Senior (RS) | School: Oregon State Height: 6-5 | Weight: 220 lbs. Projected: Round 3-4 2013 Season Stats: 376-570, 4,403 Passing Yards (66% CMP), 36 TD, 14 INT (65.3 QBR) 8. Chuckie Keeton Experience: Senior | School: Utah State Height: 6-2 | Weight: 200 lbs. Projected: Round 3-4 2013 Season Stats: 136-196, 1,388 Passing Yards (69.4% CMP), 18 TD, 2 INT (75.7 QBR); 55 Attempts, 241 Rushing Yards (4.4 YPC), 2 Rushing TD 9. Taylor Kelly Experience: Senior (RS) | School: Arizona State Height: 6-2 | Weight: 201 lbs. Projected: Round 4-5 2013 Season Stats: 302-484, 3,635 Passing Yards (62.4% CMP), 28 TD, 12 INT (61.5 QBR); 173 Attempts, 608 Rushing Yards (3.5 YPC), 9 Rushing TD 10. Braxton Miller Experience: Senior | School: Ohio State Height: 6-2 | Weight: 215 lbs. Projected: Round 4-5 2013 Season Stats: 146-231, 1,860 Passing Yards (63.2% CMP), 22 TD, 5 INT (77.8 QBR); 153 Attempts, 1,033 Rushing Yards (6.8 YPC), 10 Rushing TD
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I just worry about "next year's" QB draft, because I remember when people were all excited about the 2013 QBs in 2012. Matt Barkley (and people complained when I called him "Barely") was supposed to be the next great thing. Tyler Wilson ..... man, he could get into the 1st round discussion ......Landry Jones ..... same thing ........
I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones who really jump to mind.
Then the 2012 season was played, and the 2013 draft hit, and all of these guys were 4th rounders and below.
It is just so hard to project a QB a year away ..... because some develop, and others (and it seems like more than not) regress as weaknesses are exposed.
My personal belief is that if you don't have a QB, you need one ........ and if you don't have a QB, and it's not a great QB draft, you still have to take a chance on one ..... because you aren't going anywhere until you find one. I gamble until I find the right guy. I am not saying we should spend a 1st in every draft, but I would keep throwing bodies on the pile until I find the right guy, taking a QB every other year, some in the 1st, maybe a 2nd or 3rd ...... until I find my guy.
We have a very good team right now, just waiting for a QB. That won't last forever.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If we don't know a QB is going to be good just skip him in favor of someone whose chances of failing are much lower, then grab one of the QB's later in the 1st.
You make a lot of valid points and this one is legit too, but I disagree and think it's drafting not to lose in a nutshell. I also think you've bent your argument too much by saying that all of them are close in terms of rating.
Would you have signed a Multi Million Dollar OT in FA and skipped all RBs because you don't "know" if any would be good? I don't think so. So why is it ok in the draft? The draft is just another valuable offseason resource to make your team better. What you're suggesting is basically Ego-driven, as in "I don't want to look bad, so I take the player everybody thinks will be good"....and btw, that plan has failed too, see TRich. Remember when you beat every drum for him because he was the safest bet?
Not to lose is the worst kind of mindset, gameday as well as in the draft and offseason when putting a roster together.
#gmstrong
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Not to lose is the worst kind of mindset, gameday as well as in the draft and offseason when putting a roster together.
You're damn right.
We need to take our QB at 4. Be it Bortles or Bridgewater. BOTH are justified picks. IF we love Manziel, then take him at 4.
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I'll put my nuts out there and say this QB class is significantly better than next year's. Can't believe they didn't put Cody Kessler on there. That guy can play.
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Quote:
That's what teams who consistently win do, and something we've completely ignored in the last decade and a half.
Let me guess those teams: Pats (Brady), Colts (Manning then Luck), 49ers (Kaep), Packers (Rodgers), Steelers (Big Ben), Ravens (Flacco).....its like all those teams have something in common...
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Dalton is no all-star but he looks good and the team wins because of the talent.
1st round exit after 1st round exit after 1st round exit....Now if you can be happy with 1st round exits and that's your ceiling more power to you. I want a QB who can win Superbowls and Daltons not one of them.
Then name the QB in this years draft that's a sure thing to provide that.... Which one is the absolute best, can't miss, will take us to multiple SB's prospect?
Considering how downright lousy this team has played, I would TAKE winning the division and an early exit from the playoffs for a while. Sure beats the hell out of 4-12 every season.
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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The draft is just another valuable offseason resource to make your team better. What you're suggesting is basically Ego-driven, as in "I don't want to look bad, so I take the player everybody thinks will be good"....and btw, that plan has failed too, see TRich. Remember when you beat every drum for him because he was the safest bet?
Taking a safer bet isn't based on ego, it's based on percentages and need. Teams which are perennially successful often take players who are the highest rated on their board regardless of position and regardless of need.
I could turn that argument around and say the Browns threw the big dice at Weeden with a 1st round pick out of desperation, not smarts, just as this franchise has done with every QB from Couch to Frye, from Quinn to Weeden.
From my own personal perspective I don't see that much difference in overall ratings between the top 4 or 5 QB's in this draft, so if the Browns passed on one at 4 and took one later on it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit, even though I still feel Bridgewater is the best of this bunch.
There's no "ego" in this. In fact, my stance on this really comes all the way back around to the debate of "need" versus "BPA."
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'll put my nuts out there and say this QB class is significantly better than next year's. Can't believe they didn't put Cody Kessler on there. That guy can play.
I totally agree. Winston (if he comes out next year) would be the exception. Otherwise I would put this QB class much higher.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Then name the QB in this years draft that's a sure thing to provide that.... Which one is the absolute best, can't miss, will take us to multiple SB's prospect?
Name ANYONE in this draft class at ANY position that's a "sure thing"? There is no such thing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Would you have signed a Multi Million Dollar OT in FA and skipped all RBs because you don't "know" if any would be good? I don't think so.
There is always risk but at least in FA you have a body of work against NFL talent to evaluate...
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I don't think so. So why is it ok in the draft?
Because the transition from college QB to NFL QB might be one of the least successful transitions in all of professional sports when it comes to being able to judge who will make it effectively. And there is no plan B with a highly drafted QB.. ok so you take Joe Haden and he isn't as great as you thought but he's decent, then he can play CB2.. or you move your stud LT to RT or inside to guard, etc.. there is no moving that QB, he's either the team leader or he's not and he's riding bench with all of your money. Plus, most teams waste 2-3 years trying to find out if he's the right guy or not..
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and he's riding bench with all of your money.
Pretty much why they changed the rookie contract structure. Now it doesn't kill franchises (like us) who what seemed on the bottom forever missing on our picks. Couch, Brown (coulda woulda without the injuries), Warren, Green, Faine, KW2, BE, Wi...man senior moment our DE instead of NATA.
Outside of Green and Faine (midround picks) all in the top 10. And some with marginal success but not top 10 success. Not even close but those were the astronomical contracts that killed us.
Since the new CBA we have seen many chances taken on QBs pretty early - the contracts are longer in the first round and the pricing reasonable. Why wait for the 2nd round when you can jump in the late first and gain a year on that first contract???
Jmhthoughts
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not just the contracts killed us.. blowing the high round picks set us back Big Time, especially the Weeden and Quinn picks. Both set us back years while we were trying to decide if they were any good. For once, with multiple first round picks.. I would like to see us pick solid first round position players and build talent.. and go for a QB later.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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The good thing about taking a tackle is having another Joe Thomas type player after JT retires in about 5-6 years.
JC....Joe will be 30 this season. He is signed through 2017(4 years) with the final two years having no guaranteed money attached to them. A rookie would be signed through the same year. Meaning even if Joe played through his contract a rook wouldn't cash in on an extension with him still here.
Pace....34
Ogden..33
Munoz..34
I think many on here overestimate how long Joe will play. He is a finesse guy. Once he loses a step he won't have the power like the guys above to compensate. I'd be surprised if he played at a high enough level to keep for the next 4 years much less 6. Look for a replacement to be found this year or next and Joe to restructure in 2 or 3 years to stay a Brown or hell be cut.
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Wi...man senior moment our DE instead of NATA.
Wimbley
And I get that the contracts aren't as huge as they used to be.. you aren't going to draft Matt Stafford and put him in the Dleague... I just wonder if there isn't a better way than a DLeague...
yebat' Putin
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The good thing about taking a tackle is having another Joe Thomas type player after JT retires in about 5-6 years.
JC....Joe will be 30 this season. He is signed through 2017(4 years) with the final two years having no guaranteed money attached to them. A rookie would be signed through the same year. Meaning even if Joe played through his contract a rook wouldn't cash in on an extension with him still here.
Pace....34
Ogden..33
Munoz..34
I think many on here overestimate how long Joe will play. He is a finesse guy. Once he loses a step he won't have the power like the guys above to compensate. I'd be surprised if he played at a high enough level to keep for the next 4 years much less 6. Look for a replacement to be found this year or next and Joe to restructure in 2 or 3 years to stay a Brown or hell be cut.
You know this is a valid point on taking an OT this year...Just to change this slightly, if we took one at #4 he would sign a 4 year contract, however, the Browns would have the option to pick up a 5th year at the average of the top 25 of his position. So they could in essence let Thomas ride off into the sunset and have a full year to sign a 2014 draft pick to an extension AFTER Thomas leaves..
But, I just don't believe for a second another top ten offensive lineman is going to make any impact to get this team to the Super Bowl any more than one taken in later rounds. Joe Thomas is and has been one of the best, the team has not won in any of those 7 seasons except when they got extraordinary QB play...I feel very strongly we won't win again until we find a QB that will elevate the position to top potential...with or without a top 5 pick on an offensive lineman.
It isn't like we have the line back in 1999 that got Tim Couch killed..
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Carr on Gruden's QB camp today was very impressive. Would love to have the kid as a Brown.
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BTW.. here's a better 2015 QB listing..
None of those guys are better than Teddy. Winston might be close, but I have a feeling that guy is going to end up being a head case. The other guys are Spread type QBs who don't read coverages.
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We keep putting off spending big on a qb. We gamble on 3rd round guys. They end up sucking. Then we reach on guys like Weeden and BQ.
Time to stop the madness. Teddy is going to be a great qb. Take him.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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2 guys worth taking top 10 and thats Manziel and Carr
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109 Likes: 5
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109 Likes: 5 |
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You know this is a valid point on taking an OT this year...Just to change this slightly, if we took one at #4 he would sign a 4 year contract, however, the Browns would have the option to pick up a 5th year at the average of the top 25 of his position. So they could in essence let Thomas ride off into the sunset and have a full year to sign a 2014 draft pick to an extension AFTER Thomas leaves..
I'm thinking a top 10 pick gets a 5th year at the average of the top 10 of his position. That's a bit more $$$.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109 Likes: 5
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109 Likes: 5 |
Please avoid any QB who has the tendency for 'happy feet', no matter what kind of arm he has. IMO, you don't train that trait away. I'm resigned we take a QB at 4 but it will be interesting to see what they do if Watkins and/or Robinson is on the board. Taking a QB at 4 Anoints him as 'the Franchise' so there's not much chance he doesn't start either.
Let the draft come to us - love to see 3 of the top 35 come to us rather than force a QB into a starter considering their lack of pedigree. I get the argument you don't get a needed QB if you don't draft one - you also don't make someone a franchise QB just because you want one. From the amount of time they've taken to evaluate, it'll be interesting to see and hear about their early draft decisions.
I can live with Bridgewater, Bortles is a winner and wouldn't mind Savage as a later pick.
Last edited by chet the jet; 04/28/14 10:43 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
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None of those guys are better than Teddy. Winston might be close,
Yea, he might be.. he's an inch taller, 30 pounds heavier, stronger arm, more athletic, just as accurate, more of a vocal leader, plays with a great passion for the game, and is 3 years younger... if Jameis Winston was in this draft he would be the concensus #1 pick and it wouldn't be all that close.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
I wouldn't have him #1. He's got a lot of work to do in my opinion for a consensus #1. He reminds me a lot of Bortles, but is a better passer.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
If Winston and Mariota were in this draft they'd be 1 and 2. Not a single question in my mind.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
I wouldn't have him #1. He's got a lot of work to do in my opinion for a consensus #1. He reminds me a lot of Bortles, but is a better passer.
And if Bortles was a better passer and had faced better competition (both of which Winston has), he would probably be the #1 this year... therefore, Winston would be the #1 pick.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 342 Likes: 21
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 342 Likes: 21 |
Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't have him #1. He's got a lot of work to do in my opinion for a consensus #1. He reminds me a lot of Bortles, but is a better passer.
And if Bortles was a better passer and had faced better competition (both of which Winston has), he would probably be the #1 this year... therefore, Winston would be the #1 pick.
And this time last year, Teddy Bridgewater was the consensus #1 pick...and it wasn't really close...
Pretty amazing what 12 mont...er 4 months...does to a guys draft stock after a pro day.
Winston will be scrutinized the same as all the others...
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Is it possible that the NFL teams didn't like Bridgewater as much as the NFL media did one year ago?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 Likes: 26 |
Quote:
Is it possible that the NFL teams didn't like Bridgewater as much as the NFL media did one year ago?
It's rare that scouts rave about how he is still the #1 QB and the media to say he is not a first rounder. Even to this day.
It's possible, just unlikely. Something isn't right, it doesn't add up.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 ‘Many in football’ believe
Cleveland Browns will draft Derek
Carr
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