DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Secularists Erect ‘Holiday’ Exhibits in Florida, Michigan, Angering Believers

I do believe that there have been times where God has influenced certain situations in order to achieve His ends. These are few and far between. Does God completely change a person? I don't think so. Does He take what is already in a person's heart and bring it to the fore to suit His purposes? Quite possibly.

God exists in all time, and outside of time. He knows everything that was, is, and everything that will be. I don't think that He changes people for the worse ...... but I do think that He can take a person who will be lost anyway, and use their tendencies for His purposes. I do not believe that He takes anyone who will accept His gifts and causes them to be lost. I do not believe that He takes anyone who can be redeemed and cause them to do something to be condemned to death.

Remember that He took Saul, who persecuted and murdered Christians as a matter of course, and brought him in to build His church. I do not believe that God made Saul (later the Apostle Paul) do any of the vile things that he did in the name of God before his conversion, but rather He used what Saul had done to demonstrate another miracle. He did not reach down and just change Saul's heart, but rather demonstrated His power to Saul, and changed him using love. He struck Saul blind, and made him see how truly blind he had been in persecuting the Christians. God sent one of Jesus' disciples, a man named Ananias, to cure Saul's blindness. Saul was then baptized, and went on to establish the Christian church throughout much of the (then) known world.

Did God make Saul commit the vile acts he committed as a Pharisee? I do not believe so. Did He use what was in Saul's heart to His own purposes? Absolutely. Did he "make" Saul change, and become the Apostle Paul? I don't think so. Did He create circumstances that allowed Saul to change completely? Absolutely.

As far as Exodus, what did God do? He hardened the hearts of the Pharaoh and his men, so that God could demonstrate His power to them. Did He permanently change Pharaoh, or his men? No. He made them stubborn so that He could show them the power of God. Did He make this a permanent change? No. Chapter 10, verse 7 says that Pharaoh's officials pleaded with him to let Moses' people go, so they could save themselves.

7 Pharaoh’s officials said to him, “How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the Lord their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?”

Did God create a permanent change in these men? No. He hardened their hearts, (made them stubborn, and more convinced to do what they would do anyway) so that He could demonstrate His power. Could God have merely blown Egypt off the map, protecting His people, and destroying their oppressors? Sure, He could have. (if we accept that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then we accept that He could do anything He wishes) However, He had His own purposes, so He went a different route.

In short, I do not believe that God makes permanent changes in a person that would cause them to be lost. I do not believe that God makes permanent changes to a person that would make them turn away from Him, or make them stay turned away from Him. (except by their own volition) I believe that much, in fact most, of what happens on this earth is caused by man's own actions and desires. God gives us free will to do as we please. He already knows what we will do with that free will, but that is not because He outlined our lives in detail in advance. He allows(ed) us to make our own decisions. He may use what we will do anyway to help save another (or even the person himself) by putting him in a certain situation, but I do not believe that He takes a good person and makes then evil, or takes a saved person and causes them to be lost.

Man has slaughtered man since the beginning. Even in the Bible, just after the fall of man, while man was still living in God's company. Cain slew his brother Abel out of jealousy. As far back as history goes, one people have fought another, one person has killed another pout of the most petty of reasons, and have we changed, truly, over the centuries of civilization? We still have people who steal from another person without regard. We have people who kill to steal, or out of anger, or jealousy, we have people who hate those who have more than they do, because "it's not fair" .....

I am not saying that people don't also do good along the way as well ...... but we have huge portions of the world where people would as soon kill you as look at you. Other people have no compunction against cheating another of what is rightfully theirs. People cheat on their spouses, breaking what I would consider one of the most sacred vows they have ever made. Many have sworn before God to join with their spouse for life, only to divorce a couple of years later when things get difficult, and the initial passion has worn off. Others believe in their own superiority, either as a person, or as a race. Others still hate others because of their skin, or national origin, or the way they speak, or any number of other factors. Even if some don't hate, they have a feeling of being uncomfortable around others who don't look and sound like they do.

For all that mankind has advanced, how much have we really advanced? We still have the same pettiness and hatreds inside. (granted, in widely varying degrees, but I believe that there were largely good and kind people in all parts of history as well, mixed in with the petty, criminal, and flat out evil)

We have advanced technologically. Life is easier than ever. We could transform this globe into a paradise within a decade if we all wanted that outcome, and if no one cared who got the credit and who had to pay the bill. There would be no bill, because we would all contribute. Instead we fight over petty things. I don't exclude myself. I know that, despite my best intentions, get caught up in some of this from time to time as well.

For such an "advanced species", it is amazing how primitive we can be at times. I think that it shows just how much we need God, and His love, and forgiveness.

Any human or human(s) who are tasked with rule.

Was that a serious question?

Also...it doesn't bother you that a lot of those are irrational and stupid?



But you do buy that a snake told a woman to eat an apple, and that's why people do bad things?

So...maybe magic?

How do you think a person comes to salvation through Christ? What part does God play in that process?

Nope. I believe that God is above magic, above science, and above the limitations we have as humans. Despite all of that, He wants fellowship with us, and He wants to love us .... if we will only let Him.

I think that a person comes to salvation through Christ. The Bible says that we go to Christ, accept him as our Lord and Savior, and repent of our sins. (which includes, IMHO, a desire to do our best to not commit sins, especially habitual sins) We will never be perfect or sinless, but I do not think that Jesus accepts repentance, where a person says they repent the sin of adultery, for example, yet continues to live in a sinful relationship outside of marriage. I think that God is faithful to forgive us our mistakes, but not to accept our blatant disregard for His Law. Jesus was critical of the Pharisees, who were outwardly Godly men, and who followed Gods Law faithfully, on an outwardly basis. However, they were prideful men, and spiteful men. They wore a Godly covering over corruption and sin inside. Jesus rebuked them, and I suspect that He will do the same to those who think that becoming a Christian means asking Him once for forgiveness, and then going on with their lives as if nothing had changed.

However, I believe that God is willing to forgive us up to our dying breath, if we truly repent and accept him. Once we die, though, it is off to judgment, and it is then too late for the non-believer to change his/her mind. It is a sad thing, but God has given us His Laws. he has given us the perfect "out", a perfect "pardon" for our sins, and a complete and total dismissal of our sentence. I believe that the mortal souls of every person ever to live go before God for judgment. Certain souls, like the children who know no better, are likely yo get a pass. I cannot remember the passages in the Bible, but the subject is addressed a couple of times. Everyone else goes to judgment, and there is only one defense, that of Jesus Christ. Man can never be sinless on his own, and all sin offends God, and is worthy of death. Now, i do not believe the idea some have that the souls of those who refused to believe will somehow burn forever in torment and agony. I do believe that is the fate of Satan and his fallen. However, for those on earth, I believe that their mortal (which indicates that they can die) souls are tossed in the lake of fire and disposed of. Those people never receive an immortal soul. I believe that immortal soul is a gift from God for the believers, and a person who never gained one cannot exist forever, let alone suffer forever. Satan was already immortal though. I do believe that he, and his fallen angels, will suffer the torments of the damned forever.

A person in this country has numerous opportunities to hear about Christ. I also think that God speaks to us at numerous times throughout our lives, if we only listen. I do think that some have decided that they will never listen, no matter what, because they "know better".

God has made salvation available for all who will accept Christ as their Savior, and repent their sins. I think that God has made us all aware of Christ's existence, even if some prefer to decide that He doesn't exist. (as if that makes it so) God does not force any of us to love or accept Him. He is available for all of us though. Now if someone truly has never heard of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and Son of God, then I honestly do not know what happens in that case. I suppose that it is possible that such a person could exist, especially in some of the Communist Block that fought so hard against Christianity for so long. Further, given Paul's Biblical comments on the subject, if a person has truly never heard of Jesus Christ, then I suppose that they might get an opportunity to accept him at judgement. Paul does warn that God gives us a conscience, and paints His Law on our hearts, so even if a person has never heard of Christ, they would be expected to live in a moral manner, even if they had never heard of Christ, or His message.

God's Word is available to any who will read it. I admit that it is a challenging book. I am finally studying it in depth for really the 1st time in my life. I have 2 different study Bibles, (that have tons of notes and background, along with verse by verse context) and there are still some areas that I have questions about. I a making a list of questions for my Pastor. He may rue the day that I joined his church, because I may need a few days to go through all of the questions I have. lol

I often wonder why it is that some people fight so hard against God .... like they are afraid that if they even entertain the idea that He could be real for a second, they'll believe. (which they might .... it has happened to some rather famous Atheists) My sincerest hope, especially on the day when we celebrate Christ's birth, (even though it is almost certainly not the actual date of His birth) is that someone will decide to look beyond the presents, and the decorations, into the real and true meaning of Christmas.

You probably won't see this scene anymore on TV ......



As an aside, this may be the only time Linus ever put down his blanket.

I have to hand it to you PDR, you are always willing to dig in and duke it out with the hardcore bible thumpers. It really cracks me up to see the responses I get for just admitting I'm an Atheist. I must think I'm God, if I don't believe in God... WTF? Ancient Alien Astronauts... LMFAO.

Is it so hard to wrap around the fact that some of us simply don't need to believe in any superstition in order to live a quality life? I try so hard to respect the beliefs of others and to explain that I do respect their beliefs to them; but it really sends me ballistic to be attacked for my beliefs time and time again by the so called "Good" religious people.

It's not so hard to understand people, I don't buy into the stories behind the religions... NONE OF THEM. Personally I think they are borderline insane fairy tales told to primitive minds to make the boogie men go away. If you don't understand it poke it with a stick or throw rocks at it... That's what cavemen do! Why not try to really understand it?

I can tell you from experience, most of the Atheist in this world or on this board know more about your religions than all you "Good " religious people do. They've actually read the books and dissected the beliefs before they determined what they think is or is not true. Do you think Atheist are just lost Christian souls that need your guidance back to the church? That's exactly what the inquisition thought too (or something eerily similar).

There have been wars fought, countless lives lost all in the name of these beliefs; even today our country's biggest fear is the threat of those whose religion differs from our own.

I can't stand radical islamic thinking (terrorist mentality), but how does that really differ for me from the constant onslaught of my good christian neighbors that vilify me for my beliefs? I do everything that you do except believe in God, how am I a threat? What makes you think I need to be fixed?

Don't get me wrong, I want you good christians to have your beliefs. I will never try to take them away from you and will always do my best to understand your point of view even when it opposes mine. All I ask is that you return that same basic courtesy to me.

PDR, I'm sure this goes without saying but only of few of these comments where for you directly.

Imma have to stop you right here.

There's nothing wrong with ancient Aliens, especially when I'm stoned out of my mind.

I believe in a higher power, a "god" I guess. But I'm not religious.

But if this Christian god is real, then thanks for that beautiful plant he put on this earth!

Police in Haverhill, Massachusetts are trying to find who’s responsible for stealing the baby Jesus from a Nativity scene outside a local church, and replacing it with a real pig’s head.

The baby Jesus was stolen from the crèche at the Sacred Hearts Parish church on Christmas morning, police say. Lieutenant Robert P. Pistone, a spokesman for the Haverhill Police Department issued a press release saying they were investigating the gruesome crime, the Boston Globe reported.

The Nativity scene was in a raised wooden box outside the church. Friday morning the pig’s head had been removed, and all that was left where the baby Jesus would be was a plastic bag.

Police were asking for help from the public to provide any information that could lead to any suspects in the case. A police news conference was scheduled for Friday morning in Haverhill, north of Boston.

...And the World continues as it always has.

This might be for you Swish!

That's fair, and well stated, O-C-D. If only more people, on both sides of the fence (and those sitting on it), held to this mantra...

While Jesus hung on the Cross He forgave the ignorant, and in doing so taught us to do the same ... LUKE 23:34 Jesus said "“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

mag·ic
noun
noun: magic

the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

I should've bought you a dictionary for Christmas.

...and then he rose from the dead.

For me, a man's religion is his own until he starts acting as if it should be a part of the conversation when it comes to the law of a greater society. Christian, Muslim, whatever.

Most of my religious friends would tell you I'm very tolerant. I don't really act this way in real life.

But far too often, a lot of Christians on this board expect or want the society to reflect their faith, and that's when you've got to take the gloves off and say 'OK, you know what, you believe in talking snakes. You believe a virgin gave birth, an a man put two of every animal on a boat. We're not taking any of this seriously.'

After sitting through years of nonsense arguments about religion being considered when making law, I have no hesitation when making fun of these insane fairy tale beliefs.

Now, if I were invited into their home, and asked to pray before a meal, that's a different venue.

But I do see what you're saying.

Magic usually takes on a darker tone with it when people use it to discuss God. Using that definition, I guess I can accept it.

I was thinking that you intended more along these lines:

1mag·ic noun \ˈma-jik\
: a power that allows people (such as witches and wizards) to do impossible things by saying special words or performing special actions

: tricks that seem to be impossible and that are done by a performer to entertain people

How could that draw objection as a definition?

In Christianity (or any faith), God is the wizard orchestrating impossible things.

Otherwise, there would need to be an explanation as to the possibility of the occurrence, no?

How did the snake talk to the lady? How did the man put two of every animal on a boat? How did the virgin get pregnant?

The wizard (God) made an impossible thing happen with his magic.

When I think of magic, I think of more of either a pagan rite, or a trick show.

Simply different perceptions of the same word. (as seems to happen a lot with you and I) No big deal.

When I think of Magic, I think of Human Evolution without missing links as proof. I ask the learned "Where's the proof" and they say "Its all true but Magically Missing."

Fair enough, but what I'm saying is that every definition of 'magic' that's been provided has corresponded perfectly with the beliefs of Christianity, which harks back to my earlier statement that if something comes down to:

How did that/this happen?

Uh, I don't know, magic? God is magic?

...then it really should be left off of the table when discussing matters rationally, and it most certainly shouldn't be part of any consideration when it comes to law or society.

I don't think I've ever heard a single person describe the gap between the missing link as 'magic'.

Could you please refer me to a link where someone makes the argument that the bridge between this gap was the product of magic?

Why does God by the definition above, require a terrestrial place? That would be very limiting.

ter·res·tri·al
təˈrestrēəl/
adjective
adjective: terrestrial

1.
of, on, or relating to the earth.
"increased ultraviolet radiation may disrupt terrestrial ecosystems"
synonyms: earthly, worldly, mundane, earthbound, land;
literarysublunary
"our terrestrial existence"
denoting television broadcasting using equipment situated on the ground rather than by satellite.
"terrestrial and cable technology"
of or on dry land.
"a submarine eruption will be much more explosive than its terrestrial counterpart"
(of an animal) living on or in the ground; not aquatic, arboreal, or aerial.
(of a plant) growing on land or in the soil; not aquatic or epiphytic.
Astronomy
(of a planet) similar in size or composition to the earth, especially being one of the four inner planets of our solar system.
archaic
of or relating to the earth as opposed to heaven.

Exactly how would one not describe the idea of God as 'extraterrestrial'?

Yep. I agree.

The way I see God is that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present at all times. He exists outside of time and space, so neither limits Him, yet He is also in all of time and space as well. It is hard for me to comprehend, let alone describe.

I often wonder if Heaven will have time, and if we will experience the passage of time or not. The Bible says that there will be a new Earth, so that indicates that we will have physical bodies. However, being immortal at that point, it is hard to say about time either way.

All I can say to those who do not believe is this: it is Faith. That means that there is not definitive proof either way, except the evidence we experience in our own lives. No one could ever convince me that God does not exist. I happen to believe that He is the same God described in the Bible. Why do I believe in God? Because I have felt God and His power in my own life. I believe that if anyone else has also felt His touch and comfort, that they could never doubt His presence. I actually feel bad for those who will never allow themselves to experience this.

My life is not perfect, but I cannot imagine what it would be like if I did not have God in my life. It is a shame that so many deny themselves this comfort.

People also think that you have to give up a lot to become a Christian. I don't see that we give up anything of any real value, and I have gained so much.

That's because it's nonsense rooted in fantasy.



That should tell you something.



It's called 'reality'.

We don't all need to believe in fairy tales to get by.

If someone's faith leads them to be good, moral, understanding people, I leave them alone.

If they spend years on a message board spewing insane nonsense like 'Two people who love each other can't get married because the wizard in my magic book said they can't', I'll always point out the delusion.

If it comforts you, fine, but why do you try to spread your delusion into other people's lives?

Like I said, it's a shame that you cannot have my experiences. It is a shame that you can never feel what I have felt throughout my lifetime, especially in times of crisis. There is a comfort that comes from knowing that God loves you, and is watching over you. That doesn't mean that we automatically just get everything we want ..... but there is zero doubt that God is there.

I feel sorry for anyone who denies the,self that feeling.

It also surprises me when people flock to churches in times of crisis, and then abandon them after the crisis has passed. I admit that many churches have done a lousy job with the message of God's love, but many others do a wonderful job. I think that if someone wants to, they can fond a church that suits them. I had to look around for my church.

Anyway, to each their own. You choose to disregard God, and that is your right. God does not make anyone love Him. It has to be our decision. He tries to speak to each of us, but many ignore Him .... and He allows them to do so, if that is their decision.

I'll never get tired of you rambling on about your invisible wizard who performs magic, and how you feel sorry for those that don't "know".

It always makes me laugh, even on a bad day.

Happy holidays, dude.

And just so you know...the feeling of 'comfort' you describe is why religion exists. It's for people who can't deal with the harsh truth of reality as they know it, so they buy into fantastical Harry Potter-like stories that promise them they'll live forever.

Of course there's a comfort in that.

It is all true and has been repeated a thousand times! To not believe the bridge to evolution is magic is to be uneducated. Perhaps you are a Zealot?

Oh and those links you asked for as proof, well they are just missing. They are true! They exist! Just missing.

Yea.... I don't get that.

I've been through some crap bro. Some serious life or death stuff.

You know what I took comfort in? My abilities as a person, my training, and my brothers beside me.

I don't need religion to feel this "comfort" like you do, and it seems like you can't comprehend why guys don't need religion to feel secure and warm.

I don't understand it, which is why personally I don't believe in religion, especially Islam or Christianity.

Two "peaceful" religions, yet both are responsible for some of the worst massacres and wars since record history.

A direct contradiction of the "word of god". If this Christian or Muslim god is real, then why does people who follow him continue to disregard everything he says?

Because it's fake.

I get furious at Turkish people who do these honor killings then try to justify it with the Quran.

I get furious with these religious Christian folk always being the MAIN war mongers.

I just took what you said wrong man. I don't need your religion to feel comfort. You need some idol to feel comfort.

I just rely on my character to get me through tough times.

And quite a character you are.

Yeah, I noticed.

Me and GM are cool.

I don't go after him. He's a good dude living with his own faith. He doesn't push it on others.

I don't have a problem with good Christians.

YTown isn't one of them. He takes that nonsense literally. GM lives like Christ.

I'm good with that philosophy, regardless of where it comes from.

So you just tried to make some half-baked comparison and don't have any evidence to point to something you insinuated was widespread, yes?

Jc


Anybody else notice something common?

They worship an unarmed color man who got publicly shamed and executed by a militarized state.

Merry Christmas.

I have nothing against GM at all, and I consider him a friend. However, your statement makes no sense at all.

You do realize that Jesus Christ was a Rabbi, who preached all over Judea. He was not a man who went through His life quietly, demurring from any expression of His Faith to those who do not believe. He actually told some that they would never make it into the Kingdom of God, because of what they were doing with their lives .... being hypocritical, and so on.

Jesus did not stay quiet about His Faith. He did not preach only to believers. He went out among the people. He spoke to those who did not believe.

How do you put Jesus and "living with his own faith and not pushing it on others" together? Man, that is a total contradiction. The more I discuss Christianity with you the more convinced I am that you have only read the Bible on websites that put forth Bible verses as a way to try and disprove the Bible. I am not trying to offend you, but you truly seem to have no idea what the Bible actually says.

Matthew 5: 10-15: 10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Disciples and the World

13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Mark 6: 15: 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Did He say to go talk only to other believers? No. He said preach the gospel to everyone. Spread the word to everyone. Talk to everyone about the gospel.

Did he say only speak with those who already believe so that you do not offend them, and also so they don't think you pushy? No. This is, to Christ, and to Christians everywhere, helping people to salvation, and an act of complete love. Jesus does not want anyone to be lost. He wants us to try to our dying breath to help others to salvation. He never said to only speak to friendly crowds. Most of his disciples were executed. They were not put to death for speaking to friendly houses.

I did not know whether to laugh, or have you checked into a facility for evaluation when you said "I don't have a problem with good Christians.

YTown isn't one of them. He takes that nonsense literally. GM lives like Christ."

Christians are expected to help bring others to Christ. That is the first and most important mission of a Christian. I have no idea how you think that a "good Christian" would not believe the Bible, and would not try to bring others to Christ, and it seems to me that you have insulted GM by implying that he does not believe the Bible, and its teachings, one of which is to spread the Good news of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection to the world.

Further, it is impossible to be a Christian without Christ. You might be able to be a lot of things, and maybe even do a whole lot of really good things for a lot of people, but you simply cannot be a Christian without Christ. He is the entire basis of the Christian religion, and is the reason the religion is named after Him. I truly do not understand many of your statements about the Bible. You act as though you know about the Bible, but then you imply that I am somehow a "bad Christian" by trying to help those the Bible says are lost be found, and by trying to answer the questions that have been asked of me. Weird. I guess I am lucky that you do not make the decision as to my salvation, or my humanity, for that matter.

I think that most people who have any knowledge of the area in which Jesus lived would agree that Jesus was not White. He probably has olive skin, typical of the region, and which would be even darker for those who were out in the sun almost constantly from sun up to sundown.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Merry Christmas

A lack of evidence is not proof that something/someone never existed...

"I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the Earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how a man could look up into the Heavens and say there is no God"....Abraham Lincoln