DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

This post brings up some good points and makes me wonder just how much as a Browns fan if we really want bad boys on this team...

We have some bad boys... one can produce some as in Gordon and the other two just can't..

I guess what I'm getting to is some including myself would like to see a guy like Suh come here... Knowing his bad antics but also knowing his on field play..We could accept it because we know he could be a game changer.. Which makes it easier to accept.

As of now I can't accept JM... Gilbert I would have
rather of seen seen Mike Evans... And Gordon.. If we can hook him up with a QB that can help him kick ass.. then I'll deal with him... as we know most WR's are head cases anyway..

Sounds like the Browns will be drafting or signing a QB in 2015.

Suh wants to play for a big market team or a true SB contender.

This would take some testicular fortitude. Not sure how to make of this IF it comes true.

TEAM OF DESTINY!!!

I'm sure he does.. but that wasn't the point I was making in my post...It was about us dealing with difficult players.

the same fortitude that it would take to fire a coaching staff after their first year?

So you're ok with difficult players as long as they produce?

of course I am... as long as they don't become a locker room cancer.. I know it's a fine line.. But I believe some can fit in and have the players back as long as they do perform well

I agree.

You have to be ok with difficult players.

Winning games is winning games.

Richard Sherman produces, although he's just a loud mouth, but I'd love for him to be on this team.

Marshall lynch produced.

Aldon smith from San fran produces.

Part of coaching isn't just on the field, it's off as well.

Haslam and other fans let emotions and hype get in the way when choosing Manziel. Anyone who used logic and rational, KNEW Bridgewater was a better pro prospect.

Without being in the locker room it's hard to get a true bead on what the players are doing during practices or what the other players think about our "bone-headed 3". But my best guess on what will happen is.....

Gordon gets traded or dumped by draft day. I think even Haslam has seen enough of his BS. I always felt his talent warranted a little leeway but this last incidence is the last straw. He has to go, no matter what.

Manziel will be told in no uncertain terms (if he hasn't already) that one more dumbass incident and he's toast as well. If they can get a 3rd (or better) draft pick in a trade (unlikely at this point) he'll be traded by the end of the draft as well. Although, I don't think this will happen it would not surprise me in the least.

Gilbert is actually a harder case to figure out. At least for me. I think he has the talent to be good. Really good. But without being around the team to judge his desire and intelligence I cannot say what will likely happen. I think that if Pettine stays so will Gilbert. But, obviously, his leash is almost as short as Manziel's.

I have to say I am more sad than mad. The season showed so much promise 2 months ago. Now it's pretty much the same as every season since '99. To think that so much talent is wasted on guys with dime store brains is just depressing. That I now have to watch the Steelers and Bengals stroll into the playoffs along with the Ravens only makes me wish that I had the good sense to follow some other team. Sadly, I do not. So I'll be be back watching the Browns next year. I'll just be doing so with a lot more beer in the fridge......

Go back to after the Thursday night at Cincy ... and then look at the team right now

Man, what a debacle

It would be a "Conditional" (dependent upon his subsequent performance). Don't know what round, perhaps a 3rd with moving up to the 2nd. At this point we don't know when in time a trade could occur, but I would expect the pick would be in the following years draft...

Its odd because Blake Bortles looks horrible...yet noone is calling for his head and he has his teams backing...switch Manziel for Bortles...and we'd be calling for Bortles head...I'm not a Manziel lover and had Manziel ranked behind Bridgewater and Bortles and tied with Carr...I understand Manziel has irked many with questionable dedication (pisses me off too) yet I understand he is still a rookie and rookies all struggle (some more so on the field, some off the field, some with both) Manziel deserves blame for not knowing a majority of the playbook and for being late to his treatment yesterday...

The reason Manziel looked so poorly is because we had to run him in the limited plays that he did know...strictly on Manziel...all of our QBs struggled behind this line and with our wideouts dropping a lot more passes later in the year...

Regardless...QB is still a huge question mark

Bortles didn't have to have the team security go and find him because he was partying instead of taking his job serious

Good point.

Good point.

I'd cut or trade gordon... Manziel And Gilbert I'd sit and have a serious talk with before offseason but would shop manziel a little just to feel out what he's worth.... But if he doesn't tout in the work this offseason I would make him inactive every game and let him sit until he learns or we can trade him

I think with the new rules...doesn't Gordon have more leeway as far as being banned? Like if he messes up again its another full suspension without ban? Perhaps I read it wrong...I think Gordon compares to Mike Williams yet has shown to be an elite War and superior wide out...both had or have issues...Williams went for a 6th I believe...I can see us receiving a 4th easy for Gordon...or at least hope so.

So were Bortles and Carr

I'm sure Bortles has partied this year...many times to boot too...problem is he didn't miss a meeting or his treatment for an injury...and like I stated I'm irked with Manziel as well.

Wow, it may be getting bad....

https://twitter.com/ruiterwrongfan

Wow - tweeting like it is! I like JT - We need stability! . Did you catch the tweet where Pet and Farmer will be back?

I don't tweet or have an account. What was said by whom?

Without!

I think at this point, if you agree that Manziel is not going to be a good pro, and that Gordon is a screwup that you just don't want to count on anymore, you could get rid of both and send a very positive message to the rest of the team, especially Gilbert. There really is not much to lose. Sure you could try to get a couple of third round picks for those two idiots, but you might get more by sending the message.
Manziel is not going to be a good QB. I thought he could be, butte's an ass, and he is not that good. Gordon will just break our hearts for as long as we keep him around. After all he did to screw over his teammates, he STILL has the bad attitude. And who would bet a paycheck that he won't flunk another test? It would be great if we cut those two morons tomorrow.

Jimmy ain't takin' no *(*^(^!

[quote]"I think is the ultimate team game and I think a player who can't show up for meetings, can't make practice, can't make weight lifting, disrespects himself," Haslam said. "But I think more importantly, and I think this is what these young guys miss -- they disrespect the team, the coaches, the staff, the fans. There's a lot of people in our organization whose livelihood depends on how well we do, and we're not going to tolerate people who are irresponsible no matter what round they're drafted in.
"So these young guys, we're going to give them a chance. They're young kids. We're going to work with them. Hopefully they'll grow up, but if they can't grow up and they can't be responsible to their teammates and the coaches and our great fans, then they won't be with the Cleveland Browns."/quote]

Now we're talkin'!

J/C

I sincerely hope that Pettine/Farmer (and their respective staffs) have enough humility to be able to look at themselves and recognize mistakes made, opportunities lost, and work at becoming better in their second year in their respective positions.

It doesn't bode well that their two first rounders became what they became this year. It isn't their fault Gordon can't exercise self control.

And don't forget about Ben Tate.

We have had some winners, K'wan Williams, Crowell, Gabriel . . . to name a few that give me some pause that perhaps they have something upstairs and can use that something to acquire better talent either through free agency and especially, the draft.

J/C

I was a supporter of all three and wanted them to succeed, but now I hope we can get draft picks for Manziel & Gordon and move on from them. I'm willing to see if Gilbert can develop, if he can make it through the off season, but I'm not opposed to cutting ties with all of them if that's what it takes to move forward. This team can't afford to have high draft douch bags who don't perform. Take the hits and try to do better next draft. If they're too stupid to realize the incredible opportunity they have to turn around a storied franchinse with some dedication and hard work, and if they're too lazy to put in the effort it takes to be a high level pro, then screw them, they do not belong here.

I don't know about the Kosar thing, but it probably wouldn't hurt to have him consult, he certainly knows his X's and O's but the reason I quoted this is #3. Haslam really needs to do something like this both as a vote of confidence for Farmer but also an assurance to the league (free agents mostly) that he'll be letting the football guys make the decisions from here on out.

Just reading a tweet from Mary Kay where she linked an article that said that Gilbert and Johnny were banished to the trainers room for the Ravens game. Mid game, Johnny "favourited" a tweet about Chris Rocks' divorce and rightfully got pounded by Browns fans (tweet later deleted). This guy just had no radar for not doing idiotic things. In light of everything that's gone on, all that you said, you'd at least think he would consider just maybe not drawing attention to himself when his team are out there giving it all for a lost cause. Just wow.......

I was willing to give Manziel the benefit of the doubt but after the antics of this weekend I am done with him. The guy's an idiot. Time to move on. This franchise has already lost too much time waiting on people who are a waste of time. He can take Gordon with him. These guys are both losers.

I'm done with Gordon (Vers was absolutely right), keeping Gilbert for his potential, and one of Hoyer/Manziel has to go as it appears they cannot co-exist, amongst other reasons...

I just don't think he cares about football all that much.

Which is the most surprising part to me. All the reports coming out of college were that he loved the game and was a competitor. But his actions certainly show something different. He seemed to relish in being on the sidelines. I dont think he's a moron. I just don't think he cares about playing all that much.

I've been saying this for years. It's going to take a special kind of attitude at the QB position to bring this team out of this funk. Someone who looks across the field at Roth and isn't impressed. Someone who possesses that inate confidence in themselves. An ultimate competitor that the rest of the team will follow. Obviously the skill needs to be there, but their confidence lies in part because they know they possess the skill as well.

I thought we were getting many of those attitude attributes with Manziel, but he's proving to be a politician. I think he has some skill and can improve in that area, but guys don't follow him. They don't play for him. That means there is a ton going on behind the scenes that is not a good reflection on him. And he just doesn't seem to care.

I'll never doubt JT again...I'll say that much.

There's some scuttlebutt that Manziel and Gilbert and Gordon are purposely acting out in hopes of getting released. I don't think there are many legs to it at this time, but I have a hard time believing they are as stupid as it appears. There's something else going on here. My personal speculation is that Manziel and Gilbert feel wronged about being outed in the media by Dansby and Whitner and Pettine. This is their way of fighting back. Just more justification to cut bait.

That would be so incredibly immature...

I think that could be giving too much credit to these morons. Was it part of Johnny's master plan for getting released to not learn the playbook all season and to play seven quarters of football that makes it impossible to believe he could ever be good? Was it part of Gordon's genius scheme to get himself out of here when he missed a meeting and totally screwed himself out of free agency?
Nah, these guys really are just that stupid and selfish. Now, they could really hate it here now and want out, and be saying that this is why they have acted this way. But don't believe it.

I don't know that I'm ready to give up on Justin Gilbert or Josh Gordon, but honestly after the way Shaw played yesterday, I don't see Manziel improving enough to become a starting caliber NFL quarterback.

Connor Shaw was an undrafted rookie and he looked A MILE ahead of Manziel.

If we can get a 3rd or 4th round draft pick for Josh Gordon I almost consider making the trade, I'm sick of hearing about him getting in trouble at this point, and one more failed drug test is a season long ban.

Gilbert is on his first strike. Don't trade him yet.

I have read the comments from the Browns and you guys. I watched yesterday's game. And I have had a bit more time to think about this. A few thoughts...

--I think it is wrong to blame Pettine and the coaches for "the kids" problems.

--Haslam made a lot of sense when he spoke of these three guys disrespecting their teammates, coaches, ect.

--I think it also makes sense that the Browns will work w/these guys, but will get rid of them if there are further infractions.

--Not sure why people are defending Gilbert over the other two. Gilbert has received more criticism from his own teammates and coaches than the other two. I am not there to know, but he might be the biggest idiot of the three---he is just hidden because he is more obscure.

--I thought the team played better yesterday w/out the three problem children.

--Some people say that you have to put up w/problem guys. They mentioned players like Richard Sherman. What? Sherman is loud, but he practices hard, plays hard, and puts a ton of time in studying the game. He recently called out another teammate for not performing. There is a difference between being loud and being a problem. Look, if you are missing--and being late--for meetings and practices........you ARE a problem. That selfish attitude adversely affects the entire team.

--I think it might be best if the Browns follow what Haslam said--as in trying to help these guys, but not putting up w/more nonsense. However, I won't have a problem w/the Browns if they get rid of all three of these guys.

--I do think it is a very real possibility that Gordon will be gone and they will give the two rookies another chance. Not sure why I think that, but I do believe there is some merit to it.

--Joe Thomas' tweet about "a few bad apples" was very telling. Wow!

--People defend Gordon because of his talent and say he helps us win games. Okay, what was the Browns record w/and w/out Gordon this year? What is the Browns overall record in games that JG has played? Is he really winning games for us? This season went sour after he came back. I am not placing all the blame on him, but I am not buying how he is winning games for us w/his talent.

--I hope we keep our GM and HC. However, I sure hope that they do a better job in the draft than they did this year. The Gilbert/Manziel draft might actually be as bad--or worse--than the TRich/Weeden draft....and I didn't think that was possible.