DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

Nice post, tru. Very rational even if I don't agree w/all of it.

If I trade Gordon, I'm sending him to some team that will bite with an offer, but won't likely hurt or or come back to bite us... like the Raiders.

Perhaps farmer took a liking to your mock :0 lol yeah I remember most of our 1A picks were being mocked at WR, QB, OT, or LB Mack (if he lasted) just don't recall many calling for CB ther...I do remember a lot mocking CB Kyle Fuller at 1B. though

j/c

Gilbert hardly played this.
Manziel hardly played and when he did he looked terrible
Gordon missed 11games this year and the team looked better without him. And it sounds like he made several mistakes that directly lead to interceptions.

I don't see how getting rid of any of them would make us worse but do see how their attitudes can be an anchor on this team.

Thank you kindly Vers...I'm trying to stay optimistic while many want to crucify others around here lol

j/c

Q: Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

A: short answer- Browns already WERE better without them. In Games 1 through 10.

Gilbert hardly played at all, once he got snatched after those awful first few games.
Manziel: no play at all, after the "Manziel package" was shelved.
Gordon: 10-games out of the practice facility.

While we were playing well, I didn't miss a single one of them. When we were playing poorly, not one of them did anything to help turn things around. If they were to be cut today, I wouldn't miss them any more than I already did.

I was all for giving these guys their fair share of chances, and if the team sees fit to bring them back, that's OK with me. However, if any or all of them are gone I won't lose a bit of sleep.


.02

I'll never forget as soon as Josh Gordon came back...our QB play went from iffy-ok...to downward horrid...he seemed to not be able to create separation nor catch it cleanly...and your right a lot of passes that went for INTs were coming his way...we seemed better without him, oddly enough...Gilbert was so awful at the start of the year...he actually was playing pretty solid towards the end of the year (does a good job interfering ((legally)) with he ball and receiver) while I think Skrine is perhaps the worst at this...But like you said he barely played and was mainly a #4 CB...would have been a lot happier keeping McFadden as our dime, and drafting Beckhum Jr...imagine that now with Bridgewater later in round 1...keeping our trade up picks for Manziel...and then just trading up for Jeremy Hill in later portion of round 2...

Beckhum Jr, Bridgewater, Bitonio, Jeremy Hill...obviously its ok to day dream

I admit though I thought Cooks would be the find at WR after Evans and Watkins...what a superstar the Giants have at wideout

Your two cents are golden.

It's pretty obvious that most people on this board despise Manziel and have given Gilbert a pass, while deflecting blame away from Gordon for years, but it seems to me that the players and coaches are seeing things a bit differently than you guys are:

Manziel:


Gordon:


Gilbert:

Of course it is worthless, mac. It doesn't align w/your agenda to coddle Gordon and Gilbert, while acting like Manziel is the devil.

That's where I come down as well, Gilbert's problems speak to immaturity, Manziel's speak to character. One you can grow out of, the other is who he is.

I think this perfectly summarizes the situation with these two. Thanks for wording it like that.

Once trading is allowed, I'd offer both Manziel and Gordon up to the highest bidders, but hold onto Gilbert for the time being. Maybe an off-season and understanding that the Browns won't deal with players crap will help him.

I'd think we'd get a 4 for Gordon and mid/late rounder for Manziel. I'd call Dallas and see if they'd take both for a 3rd and be happy I didn't have to cut them both.

I'd be very surprised if Gordon could get a 4th.

I don't know anyone in their right mind would pony up anything for Manziel. I doubt we could get a 7th.

Manziel is a liability to the image of the franchise and I will be surprised if Haslam doesn't have him cut. A team like the Raiders will give a 4th for Gordon. You keep Gilbert for another season and try to coach him up to his ability.

Link below is a podcast of Jim Donovan on ESPN-Cleveland's Really Big Show yesterday. He talks mostly about our "3 knuckleheads", and what might be done with them. Interesting note at around 12:30 of the podcast when Donovan relates a conversation he had with Brian Hoyer about when things fell apart offensively and why ... the short answer: when Gordon came back.

http://www.espncleveland.com/page.php?page_id=109

There is truth to that. I noticed it right away. We went from playing as a team to not. Gordon's body language and poor route running was a major factor in our collapse. And that is why I started that thread about Gordon being a punk.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the offense seemed to work better on Sunday as well.

what I never understood was this: why did we not just go back to what worked, leaving Gordon on an island as decoy?

Our strength was spreading the ball around- teams didn't know who to cover or how. We were coming at them from all angles, and it was a joy to watch.

It's like everyone from Shanny on down got a lobotomy the minute Gordon came back. That's on them for giving him so much influence in the way plays were called/executed.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'd have maybe targeted him 2-3 times a half, and keep the chemistry going with them what got us to 7-4. I couldn't believe it while it was happening... and I still gots no answers.

No ONE player should be able to upset an entire squad like that. Gordon deserves his share of the blame, but bad choices were also made.


Dumb, dumb, dumb.

No. It wasn't.

I think this team would have had a much better playoff chance if Gordon's suspension was a full season. There is NO WAY he could have entered the mix without throwing off the chemistry that had already been built in his absence. UNLESS... he was used very sparingly. To have him being featured was a colossal bone-head mistake. It felt wrong from the start... so please- no remarks about hindsight here. Even the love child of Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller could have seen the total breakdown.

I find myself agreeing with you more and more on our "bonehead 3". This, of course, worries me....LOL

While I hesitate to call anyone I do not know personally a punk, I can certainly put Gordon in the category of a guy with million dollar talent with a 5 cent brain. The first miscue next year, of any kind, and he needs to be sent packing.

Gilbert apparently has either a superiority complex or his maturity level is that of a middle-school kid. Or both. He can be salvaged but the effort will have to be all his and I wouldn't waste more than another half season waiting for him to figure it out before I cut him loose.

Manziel is a different case than the other two, IMO. I do believe he has the intelligence and talent to make it as an NFL QB. His problem is his lack of maturity. Maturity can be "learned". His mistakes so far are not huge. Compared to the other two guys they are almost non-existent. What he needs is a good smack upside his head once in a while and for once in his life it appears he's getting that in the last couple of weeks. The fame that he's earned in the last few years are his own worst enemy. The national press just follows him around waiting for him to make a mistake, which most 22 year old guys do in abundance. When you and I went out and got stupid drunk when we were 22 no one cared. When he has a couple of cocktails there will always be someone there to record it and dissect it 5 ways to Sunday. He needs to learn that and either stop that kind of behavior or restrict it to such a degree that it's not worth mentioning any more. I think he can do this. If not then he'll be out of the league inside of 2 years.

The original question was, "Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?" The answer is obviously, we would be better off with them. But only if they become the players they are capable of being. As with most important things in life the answer is up to them.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one Clem.

Making Gordon the focus and #1 read for the QB was a huge mistake as well. I had hoped that wouldn't be done although it did work pretty well his first game back.

But you don't walk away from what had been so successful up to that point in the season.

What leads you to believe he is intelligent?

He absolutely is intelligent. His test results demonstrate that.

Whether or not he has common sense and drive are to be determined, but he is an intelligent kid.

What test results? Are you talking about the Wonderlic?

Have you ever seen or taken one?

It's not really a good indicator of intelligence. It's more of an educated guess when it comes to one's processing skills.

'Absolutely intelligent'? You do know what the word 'absolutely' means, right? I know word meanings isn't your strong suit.

I suppose that he could have lucked into the right answers, but i doubt it.

Here are some reports on Manziel from prior to the draft:

What to make of Johnny Manziel's 32 score on the Wonderlic? - CBSSports.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-d...n-the-wonderlic

The high score for Manziel doesn't come as a shock as he is clearly intelligent on the field with a quick-paced style that requires him to process everything at lightspeed. His smarts show with his pre-snap reads and quick eyes to survey and find favorable match-ups. As the point guard of the offense at Texas A&M, Manziel clearly understood what he saw and knew how to apply it on the field.

A test obviously doesn't tell the entire story and Manziel still has room to improve his decision-making in the pocket, but his positive Wonderlic score surely won't hurt his case as a top-flight NFL prospect.

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@JohnMiddlekauff
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Talked to multiple assistant coaches who have had Johnny on private team visits. All raved about his intelligence.
3:18 PM - 10 Apr 2014

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There were other similar reports. (though it seems that they have now been buried under his recent events)

Further, listening to him speak at his pressers and such, he is not a stupid kid. he has intelligence .... he just seems to lack common sense, and obviously has not put in as much work as he should have.

He can't get through a presser without saying something 'sucks', or making an idiotic statement.

You think his pressers display intelligence? Seriously? What about them indicates intelligence?

And you didn't answer...have you ever seen or taken a Wonderlic test?

If so, what about it leads you to believe it's a dependable assessment of intelligence to the point where you would believe it 'absolutely' proves intelligence, or even serves as an adequate indicator?

My point is...he talks like an idiot, and acts like an idiot. Pretty much since he hit the national spotlight. And yet people don't hesitate to say he's 'intelligent' as if it's an obvious afterthought

I think part of the problem was that Gordon was running some incorrect routes. I think at first it was maybe an incomplete pass, or maybe a pick. They did feature him a lot. It turned out to be a mistake and they scaled back his targets. At first though it was like they were trying to get him up to speed in a hurry. I understand it, but it didn't pay off.

Now Hoyer starts hesitating, trying to see if Gordon goes the right way. This throws the timing off, and is not what is supposed to happen in the WCO. Ball is supposed to be thrown at the same time the receiver is going to make his cut.

So now you have more time for pressure to get to him, timing and rhythm off, basically a cluster, and thats what we saw. Gordon was probably the first read in his first game back.
I would imagine Hoyer could go elsewhere with the ball, but we really don't know who was open.

Don't know how often we were floating a back into the flat either due to pressure up the middle either.

Good point stetson..

I think someone (mac maybe) indicated that there were off field issues with Gilbert, I hadn't heard that before. I understand that he didn't put the time in and didn't work in practice as the Browns wanted him to, but that's a far cry from off field issues of the type that manziel is known for.

Now this is a crazy thought, and I am probably gonna be ridiculed. But how about we trade Manziel, Gordon and a pick for Dez Bryant? The Cowboys have all kinds of salary cap problems, probably worse than anyone in the league. Dez Bryant's contract is up, and they have to franchise him at $12M or so, or sign him to a longterm deal. If Gordon doesn't screw up, he's just as a good a WR at a 10 percent of the price. Jerry gets Johnny and we toss in a pick.
Now, bring it on …..

We should also trade Taylor Gabriel, Connor Shaw and a pick to Green Bay for Rodgers.