DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season The NFL Draft 2015 Draft Need: QB Part 2

I think I read this same thing this time last year, only replace Mariota with Manziel. Not necessarily from you, but others have said the same about other QBs. The mistake would be to trade away valuable picks to get him. Mark my words, Mariota was good because of Oregon, not because of Mariota. He showed who he was in the National title against a good team and coach. I believe what he did against FSU was fools gold in that Winston and his supporting cast gave that game away. He is a one read QB and that is dangerous to place all bets on.

I forgot about that one. Yeah, I remember looking at his legs, especially his calves and the area right below his knee and thinking it was a knee injury waiting to happen.

Not trading up for RGIII was one move that I actually praised H and H for not making.

Then again, later on..............The Big Show made that lie up about how Fisher screwed them to help the Redskins. LOL............yeah Mike........right.

Man, all this talk about moving up about moving up for Mariotta is making me ill.

That would be the the ABSOLUTE WORST MOVE WE COULD MAKE!

Is it? I'm mixed. Is it Mariotta or Oregon's system? Oregon never needed Mariotta to be a passer. It could be he simply needs work. I remember Carr last year. I would have swore he would turn into Weeden. He impressed me this year.

I hate drafting QBs especially today. I thought getting a college education prepares you for a job in a specific profession. I guess college football forgot that part!!!

I think it is. Of course, I could be wrong.

I simply see a guy who can't read coverages. I have some evidence of that and have posted it, but many seem to ignore the evidence.

Don't get me wrong...........it might not be as stupid as drafting TRich or Weeden, but it just might be the final straw that breaks my back and forces me to turn my back on this team until some new people get here.

Yes, I do recall. It came out during his play against Ohio State. I remember the negatives against Rodgers too. No, I'm not saying Mariotta is Rodgers. But, Rodgers was coached. Can Mariotta be coached? He has intangibles needed. Everyone like JFF because of the "it" factor. That project can still produce fruit too.

I don't believe you! You'll return critiquing every move coaches make getting Mariotta better!!! LOL!

The questions about Rodgers had NOTHING to do w/reading coverages. NOTHING!



I am not sure what you mean by this, bro?

this

Oh. Gotcha! LOL

It sounds like not addressing the QB situation is giving up this year because it IS giving up this year

Everyone talks about fixing OL and WR but even with the issue at RT and Mack's injury producing hot garbage at C, the Browns still had the 6th best OL last year per PFF. And at WR, of the 4 teams who made it to the AFC/NFC championship, the only team with a 1st round WR they drafted is Indy... and that's Reggie Wayne who they drafted at the back end 13 years ago.

Do they need to be upgraded? Sure, but not in the 1st necessarily and that's not what's holding the team back anyway. The real issue is the dumpster fire at QB. The reason why Pettine has tasked Farmer with finding him a QB and Farmer has agreed to is that if he doesn't, we're going to suck again next year and both might end up in the unemployment line. It's a BAD year to have to upgrade at QB but that's no excuse for doing nothing.

To your other question about historically trading up, it rarely happens when a) there's a QB worthy of #1 that may not go there b) the teams picking after #1 don't have a dire need at QB and c) a team like the Browns has the ammo to make the move without giving up future picks.

It's fashionable to rip RGIII now but everyone forgets that when the trade happened, the Redskins were one of the oldest teams in the league, were sent into cap hell in 2012/2013 with a $36M fine and because they didn't have extra picks in 2012 which forced them to deal 2 future 1sts, severely crippled their only real way left to improve. He was dealt a really bad starting hand. We have a much better roster, an extra 1st and $50M+ in cap space.

Back to the Skins, even with all that, RGIII took them from 5-11 to 10-6 while winning ROTY and making the Pro Bowl. And who knows where he'd be right now if he hadn't shredded his knee and made things worse playing hurt? Even now, his career rating puts him higher than any QB we've had in 15 years and there's still a chance he turns things around. Meanwhile the Rams, even with that preposterous amount of picks, still haven't finished over .500 since the trade... largely because of their QB situation.

Between our assets and the situation, the stars are aligned for us to make this move and I absolutely think it's one we'll end up regretting if we don't make it (our other options are THAT bad). Mariota might be a projection but he's also a great combination of physical tools, character and work ethic that you don't get a chance at every year.

We can try for our 4th Pro Bowl caliber lineman and upgrade our WR corps so Brian Hoyer has a fresh group of receivers to overthrow... but it's all for nothing if we don't the one position that's been holding us back all along.

I'm mixed too. I really don't want to draft another dang QB. Buuuuuuut I really want us to have a dang QB! Basically, the kid in me wants a new shiny toy.....that's basically it! Like all of us, I just want a QB that will stick, who will be our answer for the position. Mariotta has all the basic things; great mobility, arm, height, great teammate/person, supposedly real coachable and so on.

But the adult in me has to see, he does have flaws; accuracy, one read system (like Vers said), doesn't come from a pro style system, plus the guy is around 200-210 lbs (?) I would expect he might want to add some bulk for our Division. Also he will need time to learn too, so expecting the ups and downs.

While the shiny new toy sounds great, I just think we should keep adding to our other areas of need. There's some good prospects coming out this year for some of our areas of needs. Some of our needs like D-line, Wr, or an OT (to name a few) are pretty strong positions this year (at least projected). And could be looking at two very nice 1st rounders 3 very solid/good/great top 50 players including our 2nd round pick.



Another interesting thing about our 2 first rounders is we are hovering in that "why the hell is that guy dropping??" area. Where most of the teens/twenties teams have a player fall into their lap and come away like a bandit. Or the flip side of that, is you also have some team or teams behind you freaking out that this player has dropped. Before they didn't think they had a chance in hell for them and now they are offering you to move back a couple spots and a second rounder or a future 1st rounder for that pick. Which I have no problem if that happens. I liked the trade back with Buffalo last year to pick up a 1st rounder for this year and I would have no problem doing the same for next year. One of these years we will make someone pay for that extra pick (I'm joking...well..sort of, dang it ).

There is nothing wrong with building a team up first. I think for the most part we have though. What we lack is a general to lead the troops in battle. Hoyer showed how good we could be with below avg ability at QB. I think with even a decent QB we could enjoy our season soooo much more so I think getting a guy like Foles or Mariotta could be a huge improvement for our team.

I used to look to future QB classes like this too but the more and more I did it, the more I realized it's super risky thinking. I can think of far more draft classes that were supposed to be incredible that flopped than I can of classes actually panning out. For example, look at 2016:

2 of the top QB prospects (Hackenberg and Goff) are both juniors. They could both conceivably stay.

Cardale Jones might not declare either but he's much more likely. Even still, there's so much unknown about him, there's a legitimate chance his stock is down after next year if teams figure him out.

That would leave you with a QB class anchored by senior QBs Connor Cook and Dak Prescott. Gross.

The 2015 QB class may be awful too but if there's a guy in it that you love (in this case, Farmer with Mariota), just go get him. It's much easier and wiser to play a game of known commodities vs. hoping for the future.

If this team is really building for "sustainable success" then I don't understand how making another desperate reach for a Quarterback moves the team any closer to that goal. Squandering resources on middling players, that's why the Browns are where they are now. IMO, we just need a bridge QB, a veteran who can be a place holder and who accepts that role until a deeper crop of young QBs emerges.

I agree about Connor Cook. He's got the size, the arm, smarts, good enough mobility, and he doesn't play in a spread offense at MSU.

I would not be opposed to taking Bryce Petty with 2nd or 3rd rd. pick ... JMHO

I don't know about superstar but I like Cook a whole lot. I was actually hoping he'd declare this year so that we'd have a fallback option to Mariota. Still, any QB draft with 1-2 QBs with a first round grade is going to be a mess because that pretty much means they're going #1 if they're any good and the team picking there probably won't trade the pick. Kind of like this year except there are 2 guys at the top instead of 1 so there's a window of opportunity.

What makes a great QB class is 1st round depth, not one stud at the top (assuming Cook is a stud to begin with). It wouldn't matter to me if Andrew Luck re-entered the draft next year because if we don't have the #1 pick, we're not going to get him.

I agree 100%. Spend our draft picks and FA this year on our other needs. Get a qb when there is a better group available. Just because there is a group of qb's out there be it the draft or fa doesn't mean they will be any good. They are just the choices you have at that time.

How much different is Petty compared to Mariota?

One thing that begs to question..... Does Mariota have what it really takes on be a franchise QB? We can use expressions like "first round grade" all we like, but we've seen loads of what appeared to be great college QB's that carried such a "first round grade" who were never anything in the NFL.

I'm simply not seeing it. From his slight build for his size to the fact he's never been more than a one read QB, there are questions that surround Mariota.

There's nothing set in stone that he can't or won't be a franchise QB in the NFL, yet it's far from a safe bet that he will be. There's certainly more questions than small hands and a bad pro day.

That's the difficult part in evaluating a guy like Mariota. Evaluating a guy like Luck is easy because he was already doing all the things he was going to do in the NFL. Remember though that just because someone isn't doing something currently doesn't mean they aren't capable.

With Mariota, it's important to identify traits he has that will carry over to the next level. He's a fantastic athlete with good size (when I think slight build I think Johnny, not Mariota though he could use some more bulk), he has an above average arm, he's reportedly very intelligent with fantastic character and work ethic and is a great teammate. He's on the quieter, more humble side but not to the point where it should be a negative.

If you look at him based on traits, he's a #1 pick easy. The issue is projecting how well he'll be able to pick up NFL concepts and learn to play pro style... but his work with O'Connell should give us great insight into that. If he tells Farmer that Mariota has been learning quickly and that it should be no problem for him, that should give him a green light to make the move.

Not saying that's set in stone at all but I think Mariota is a special guy. He executed his college offense incredibly well and he has the traits to do the same at the pro level.

Darron Thomas only started for two years and he was pretty close.

I don't follow college ball all that much and I'll admit I'm probably getting in over my head on this thread, but what do you guys think (if anything) about this Shane Carden kid out of ECU? I know the ACC isn't exactly a factory for HoF QB's, but they occasionally produce a decent one. I pulled up his fanmade Heisman vid on Youtube. Most of the time he's throwing from a clean pocket, but makes some pretty nice throws. He's got really good size and appears to be more than a one read kind of guy. My initial concerns though is that he seems to do something funky with his wind up... if he can't learn to bring that ball up higher when he loads, I just picture an awful lot of DE's stripping the ball. The other concern I have is that apparently he spent the first 2 years on the practice squad, and his 3rd year he made the team but was all over the roster (to include O-line??).

Here's the Browns write up..

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...e8-5b199fec7cde

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INDIANAPOLIS – When Shane Carden arrived at East Carolina University, his teammates and coaches nicknamed him Brett Favre.

Everything about Carden screamed No.4 from the Green Bay Packers: His boyish southern drawl, his rugged Wrangler look and his desperado quarterbacking style on the football field.

“The things he was able to do outside the pocket, I’ve been told sometimes the plays that I make are similar to him,” Carden said with a wide smile.

Carden was among a handful of lesser known quarterbacks who spoke to the media Wednesday — one day before projected first-rounders Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston take the stage in the Lucas Oil Stadium media room — and he impressed with a mixture of quick wit, intelligence and a confidence in his who he is as a quarterback.

While starting for the Pirates for the past three seasons, the 6-foot-2, 220-pounder shattered David Garrard’s school records and was the face of a program that grew tremendously in the national spotlight. Once a sputtering team, East Carolina climbed all the way up to No. 14 in the national rankings with Carden leading a shotgun-spread passing attack.

Longtime media members covering ECU pegged Carden as the best player in school history – over running backs Earnest Byner and Chris Johnson and quarterbacks Garrard and Jeff Blake – and not because of all of the numbers.

Carden's been knocked for his throwing delivery and athleticism but he has unteachable traits -- pocket poise, guts to take a big hit and an arm to thread the needle in the middle of the field.

“I think I can compete with any of the guys here,” he said.

Carden’s been working hand-in-hand with former Florida State Heisman-winning quarterback Chris Weinke at IMG academy in Florida. Weinke is fast becoming a guru in the pre-draft process. He most recently mentored Cam Newton, Russell Wilson and Ryan Tannehill, refining their games and prepping the players for the combine.

Weinke’s biggest focus? Shedding the label that Carden is simply a system quarterback who piled up inflated stats with the Pirates. Carden knows he’ll have to answer that question to every NFL team that talks to him, and he’s ready for it.

“For whatever reason, ECU’s offense has been thought of as some single-read offense – which is very far from the truth,” Carden said. “Certain play-actions are quick reads. But there are a lot of progression reads. There’s safety reads. There’s a lot of different things in talking with these coaches, I’ve realized kind of the complexity of the offense.

“As far as [being a system quarterback], you can’t worry about all that. I feel confident in the offense I ran. I was given the offense and I mastered the offense. I can’t help that it wasn’t pro-style. There’s plenty of who were in pro-style offenses that have had trouble in the NFL.”

Along with the work he’s done with Weinke, Carden implemented something outside of the box. Carden spent a chunk of time with ECU’s baseball strength coach in the weight room, in hopes of further improving his arm strength. Carden dove into workout routines that the Pirates’ starting pitchers went through and the quarterback said the techniques helped.

By the time Carden left East Carolina, he had shed the Favre label and earned a new nickname: Captain Carden. His personality won over media members Wednesday. Intertwine his track record for making big-time throws at ECU and it’s easy to believe a team will gobble up the quarterback as a long-term project in the draft’s later rounds.

Oh I certainly didn't mean to suggest that. The question becomes risk verses reward. I don't believe we can move up to 2nd in the draft with just our fist two picks. I'm not sure at what point I believe the reward would outweigh the risk.

I do believe the work ethic and character issues are not in question. He seems like a very solid guy. But there is a lot more involved than that.

I do believe that our offensive coaching staff has the ability to see some of the tools necessary to become an NFL QB. I do not however believe I feel confident in them having the experience it takes to make a QB successful in the NFL.

I would hope that the decision one way or the other doesn't fall on O'Connell's opinion of Mariota being able to learn. Some things are a God given talent and simply not something that can be taught. IMO having the ability to read coverages post snap is one such thing.

It's a gamble either way. But at some point, when you gamble, your odds have to be taken into account. We just see the value in the gamble differently here. I would have no problem simply selecting him at #12. My question comes in trading up, how far up I would trade and how much I would be willing to pay in order to do so.

I asked this question a couple weeks back. It didn't get much of a response. One person commented that Mariota was more accurate.

I think that they have similar size, similar arm strength, similar accuracy, both reportedly good kids with great work ethic and both come from a spread type offense. I still don't understand why Mariota is being considered for the #1 overall pick and Petty is considered a 3rd-4th rounder.

So would you put Petty higher, Mariotta lower, or meet in the middle?

I believe that Goff will be a great NFL QB some day. I think that he stays another year and comes out in the 2017 draft JMO

I am not a Connor Cook fan at all

The senior that I like for the 2015 FCS season is Jacoby Brissett NCST
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jacoby-brissett-vs-fsu-2014/

Honestly, I don't know. Probably a little of both.

I just see very similar players with significantly different draft grades. I don't know what I am not seeing that the "experts" are.

If Brissett was in this year's draft, I would take him over both Winston and Mariota without a second of hesitation.

Well the Top 2 QBs this year are the last two Heisman winners, and both of them played for a NC.

I would guess that if Baylor had made the NC, or even Final Four this year, and Petty played well.. he'd be promoted more..

Or they put him low early so they have a guy that can "jump up" the draft boards..

What opinions do we have of Garrett Grayson? He seems like a 3rd round option worth investigating (although he might rise with a good scouting season.)

heh, there's one "of them" every year. People are always looking to the next draft class and saying this.

I am not suggesting we not draft or sign a Qb with plans to get this guy or any other. I started scouting him because I misread something that said he was a senior. I thought they meant this past season but it was referring to next season. I really liked what I saw and will be keeping an eye on him next year.

I agree that every year there are players especially at Qb that look good as underclassmen then fail miserably their senior year. Doesn't change my statement the if he had decided to come out that I would take him over both Winston and Mariotta.

Honestly I would take a flyer on Petty in the 2nd or third as well.

I didn't mean that Thomas' two years were as productive as Mariota's three years. I meant that Thomas would have had similar numbers if he started three years (the reason he left was because Mariota was going to take his job).

Just adding the average to Thomas two year totals you would get 99 TDs and 25 INTs. Like I said, "pretty close."