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How good is Seattle without 5th round picks Richard Sherman and Kam Chancelor, versus say, 1st Rounder Bruce Irving, or 2nd rounder, but first pick of theirs Christine Michael?

I think we get wrapped up in "he's a first rounder he sould be better" too much. Once you have acquired multiple players, its about developing them to be the best they can be, and some take longer, or maybe fell in the draft for some reason..

I do because I'm a Browns fan, not a Farmer fan. I don't blame him for what happened before he was in charge but when I look at where we are.. those are the things I think about. It's more of an organizational failure than a Farmer Failure...


I don't hold him responsible for anything Banner/Lombardi did but by the same token, we sent them packing and brought him in TO GET BETTER... If he's not better, then that is a problem.

thought u couldnt judge a class until 3-4 years after..

For the two first round picks? No, it's not. We had two first round picks who, when they were on the field, were a net negative.

Go back and re-read my post. I SAID THE FIRST ROUNDERS ARE LOOKING "BLEAK!!!!!!!!!"

So after the constant talk about White and the already built assumption that Cooper likely won't last past top 10 - I've watched some YouTube on Devante Parker. Granted yes, they're highlight videos but it's obvious to see he has size, jumping ability, good with yards after the catch, fearless it seems crossing the middle and some nice hands. Many times on the videos I watched, he just plucked the ball outta the air! He made that QB look good many times lol!

I'd have zero qualms taking the kid at #12. He's got some good stuff being said about him too. I forget the stats but he missed seven games and still ended up with a boatload of receiving yards. Looks to me he's the last of the so-called "elite-like WRs" in this draft.

What happened to it takes time to judge a draft?

I mean heck, people were saying the draft was a bust moments after it took place.

I'm no Manziel fan.. didn't like the pick then, don't like it any better now. But geez, let's see if he grows into it.

I seem to remember a young man who kept getting benched in his first two years.

He went on to win 4 super bowls. All I'm saying it, let it play out.

As for Gilbert, he has the physical tools. Whatever his "between the ears" problem is, let's see if it can be worked through.

Whether or not farmer swung and missed on his first round picks is yet to be determined. Hell after year one of Trent Richardson most would have said that was a hit. Hell he even made the top 100 list and now is considered a total bust. Give it time to play out.

I am more patient and optimistic than most. But after one year, it would be foolish to predict anything but failure in the careers of Manziel and Gilbert.

Yeah, Ozzie has missed on some picks. He has also been a GM forever. The fact is that he has hit on way, way more than he has missed on.

Comparing the number of Farmer's misses to Ozzie's is downright idiotic. God, you guys refuse to demonstrate any signs of objectivity.

Btw--------did Baltimore have a first round pick this year? Who was it? How did he do in comparison to our two? And where was he drafted?

Want help? It was C.J. Mosley. Pick #17.........9 spots AFTER Justin "I would rather sleep than study" Gilbert. Mosley was runner up for Defensive Rookie of the Year and made the freaking Pro Bowl.

Are y'all sure you wanna compare Farmer to Ozzie?

If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Ozzie's first draft as GM to Farmer's in a couple years. The arguement is that Farmer really didn't do all that bad with the draft and UDFAs and we have more talent because of it. Just like seeing how rookies develop, you need to see how the GM grows in his new position. Newsome didn't rock the NFL world right out the gate. It took years for his team to be put together.

In 2003, Newsome's first draft looked like this:


1 10 10 Terrell Suggs Defensive End Arizona State
1 19 19 Kyle Boller Quarterback California
3 13 77 Musa Smith Running Back Georgia
4 12 109 Jarret Johnson Linebacker Alabama
4 37 134 Ovie Mughelli Fullback Wake Forest
5 11 146 Aubrayo Franklin Defensive Tackle Tennessee
5 35 173 Tony Pashos Offensive Tackle Illinois
6 9 182 Gerome Sapp Safety Notre Dame
7 9 223 Trent Smith Tight End Oklahoma
7 36 250 Mike Mabry Center Central Florida
7 44 258 Antwoine Sanders Defensive Back Utah

In that draft, the great Ozzie Newsome hit on 1 pick, Suggs. There you go, apples to apples.

Are you saying:

---none of those other guys contributed?

---that comparing Ozzie's body of work to Farmer's is even realistic?

I'm saying that saying that Farmer's 2014 draft is a failure at this point is, well, pointless. While you have every right to believe what you want, I think he did rather well with Bitonio, West, and Kirksey. He also knocked it out of the park with Crowell and Gabriel in the UDFA market. Looking at each player's small body of work from their rookie season, I think we have a lot to look forward to in 2015.

I agree that the 1st round picks need to be hit more consistently for us to be successful contenders in the future. However, you cannot judge a GM in one year, especially their first year as a GM. Like with players, labels should be placed after they have been given the opportunity to succeed and that takes time.

Actually sir it would seem you are having difficulty being objective. I am having what you would call a football discussion yet you ignore the facts.

The facts do not say Ozzie has hit on most of his 1st round picks. Frankly it's 50/50 and you'd be hard pressed to find any GM better than that.

I have never compared Ozzie to Farmer and the only plausible reason to say I did is to further a point unreasonably which is not necessary. I simply wish for people to realize that a GM should be judged relatively rather than on perfection. Perfection does not exist. I do not play sides sir you know this. I just want accountability, fairness and good banter.

As others have said while the 1st round was obviously a dud up until this point, aside from getting an extra pick this year, it's far from over. Gilbert has shown talent and it's certainly not out of the question that he could become quite the player. To guess the odd of that happening or not is foolish. However I would challenge anyone to find a draft class beyond the 1st round that was better than our 2014 class. That effort should be commended at this point and I look forward to seeing how it works out.

Yeah, Ozzie has missed on some picks. He has also been a GM forever.

You should have stopped right there. You said it your self. Ozzy's been a GM for quite awhile now. Give Ray a few years he might surprise. You should know as well as anybody, you can't judge a draft for a few yrs. But a few on here just keep blasting away about what a waste it is. Give it time.

j/c:

Just my opinion.


If Kevin White is selected by the Raiders as the #1 WR and Cooper falls to 8 or 9...I wouldn't be surprised to see the Browns make a move to leap frog STL for Amari Cooper.

#5 is WAS (could be DE/OLB)
#6 is NYJ (could be Mariota)
#7 is CHI (could be Shelton)

I don't think Cooper gets past STL. I guess the question is whether you'd want to trade up a couple spots for Cooper. At this point I'm not opposed to it. Draft Value chart says it would be a 150-200 point move....that's like what? a third rounder-ish?

I guess the same could apply by switching Cooper for White as well. I just don't think one of the top three WRs will be available at #12

#10- STL; #11- MIN could both upgrade the WR position.

Unless Mariota is still on the board at the Rams pick. Slight chance, yes, but could happen...

It'd be really nice if we could bring in two solid FA WRs..

Sign Shorts, maybe got after Maclin.. Or Colston if he ends up getting cap cut...

If we only sign one, I'd expect us to grab the best WR we can at the highest position of "value"

But if you bring in two FAs, you can then sit back and let the best fit come to you.. Maybe only go after a Tony Lippett in the 4th and let him learn behind the vets..

FA is going to effect our draft this year possibly more than any in years passed..

True. Hell, if Mariota begins to drop after the Jets, I bet Farmer might also be trying to jump ahead of STL too based on the reports about how much he likes him.

I think St. Louis' position will weigh heavily on the Browns come end of April.

Yes, as will a few other key slots. We should all keep in mind what Vers referenced as "vertical" and "horizontal" boards. Where BPA/value matches need.

Taking a peek at what I expect (not predict) relative to your point:
- #2 Titans Do they pick Mariota here, or Williams, DL?
- #4 Raiders A WR or an OLB?
- #6 Jets Is Mariota still on the board?
- #7 Does Shelton go here, or another OLB?
- #10 As you said, Mariota is now gone, if he gets this far.

Those are the slots that I feel will have the most impact on our #12. There obviously will be a high quality player available to us; will he match our needs is the question...

If we did draft Amari Cooper, we need to draft Doran Grant because he is only CB that shut Cooper down!!!

Cooper still caught 9 passes and scored 2 TD's. If that is shutting down a receiver, I must be missing something.

Of which I think would already be taken into consideration to my earlier comments. Ex. Mariota being taken at #2 means nothing if he eventually is taken by the Jets based on our talking points.

But to your point, there are always moving pieces, especially trades, which have been more prevalent after the new CBA. I think that is a looming factor. There is not that much more money involved as there used to be *cough, cough* Sam Bradford.

But the trade factor is why I think the Browns can be active early because of St.Louis. They have similar needs- WR and QB most notably. But that is only if they truly value the available WRs or QB falls, like you mentioned earlier.

I really feel demand for the top three WR this year. Maybe it's common media hype but draft peeps are signing the same tune as well.

Agreed. This year has a solid crop of WR's and rush OLB's.

I know many think taking a receiver at 12 and 19 is a must, but I simply don't see it. Petine and Farmer are wanting a run offense and strong defense. Farmer stated he liked how Seattle put their squad together.

I vision Browns taking a LB and DL in the first. I see OL or WR in the second, with either a DB or WR, if none taken in the second, in the third. One question mark is TE. Do they put enough stock drafting one in the first or second.

Bottom line look at Seattle for guidance.

If a dominant DL prospect like Danny Shelton is available at 12 after White, Parker, and Cooper are gone; I think we should secure the interior DL and take best WR available at 19. I really think Jaelen Strong will be there without trading up.

"Bottom line look at Seattle for guidance."

If we could get guidance to grab:

A Russell Okung or Earl Thomas like player in the 1st
A Bobby Wagner like player in the 2nd
A Russell Wilson like player in the 3rd
A Walter Thurmond like player in the 4th
A Richard Sherman or Cam Chancellor like player in the 5th

Yeah, okay.

You forgot Byron Maxwell in the 6th.

Devante Parker -- Teddy Bridgwater's college receiver.

Amari Cooper -- Teddy Bridgewater's high school receiver.

Return to the subject at hand. I have not strayed and would actually very much like your opinion on the matter. No need for these last few type of comments. It gets us no where, my friend.

Really? Fascinating....

Ah, statistics. They are a cruel mistress.

and in regards to trading up.. I'd be pissed if we trade up for a WR..

FA will definitely show what we do in the draft. I can honestly see us going after a guy like Cecil Shorts to help boost the WRs. I like the idea of bringing in a veteran FA like him or Hartline and getting the BPA at WR in the 2nd or 3rd rounds if the top 3 WRs (Cooper, Parker, White) aren't available. I think we would get more production shoring up the interior DL with a smart interior lineman like Danny Shelton at 12 than drafting a WR at that spot outside of the top 3. In fact, I can see the whole Ngata opportunity sitting in our laps at 12.

Remember the last TD didn't mean a whole lot being down 14 with 1:59 left, if Meyer runs 3 times they don't even get a shot at a hail mary, also he had 115 catches during the season and 71 yds. was a quarter for him ...

I agree in principle, but if we trade up for a receiver, and he becomes Josh Gordon, but without the issues and problems, then I would be OK with that decision in time, if not immediately.

2015 NFL Mock Draft 1.0: Eagles make Mariota move, pass rushers go fast
March 3, 2015 9:49 am ET


Is there anything tougher than putting together a mock draft before free agency begins?

So much can change the focus of a team's needs in a one-week span. Even so, it's time to unveil my first mock. Why? Fans eat them up, and my bosses love them. It's fun, but tough to do.

While so much can change the next two months, one thing I don't see changing is Florida State quarterback Jameis Winston to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with the first pick. They have no other choice in my eyes.

In this mock (one is coming every week until the April 30-May 2 draft), I have the Eagles trading up to the sixth spot to get Oregon quarterback Marcus Mariota. It's a bold move, but one I think they should make if possible.

Chip Kelly's offense could reach its full potential with Marcus Mariota at the controls. (Getty Images)
Chip Kelly's offense could reach its full potential with Marcus Mariota at the controls. (Getty Images)
1. Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- Florida State QB Jameis Winston : This is almost a lock in my mind. How can they go anywhere else?

2. Tennessee Titans -- Southern California DT Leonard Williams: He's the best player in the draft. They have to get better on defense and I think they like QB Zach Mettenberger.

3. Jacksonville Jaguars -- Florida OLB/DE Dante Fowler: He is coming off an impressive combine and would fill a huge need. He has emerged as the top edge rusher.

4. Oakland Raiders -- Nebraska OLB/DE Randy Gregory: He would team with Khalil Mack to give them a heck of a pair of young edge players.

5. Washington Redskins -- Clemson OLB Vic Beasley: He played defensive end in college, but will move to a 3-4 outside rusher on the next level. He's coming off an impressive combine.

6. Philadelphia Eagles (From New York Jets) -- Oregon QB Marcus Mariota: The Eagles would be making a bold move to get a guy who fits what they do.

7. Chicago Bears -- Washington DT Danny Shelton: This is high for a nose tackle, but with the move to a 3-4 they have to get one.

8. Atlanta Falcons -- Kentucky DE Alvin "Bud" Dupree: Their front seven lacks a big-play rusher. Dupree can be that.

9. New York Giants -- Iowa OT Brandon Scherff: They have to get help up front. He could play guard or tackle.

10. St. Louis Rams -- Alabama WR Amari Cooper: They need to add a playmaker to a group of average outside receivers.

11. Minnesota Vikings -- Alabama SS Landon Collins: Teaming him with Harrison Smith on the back end would give them a heck of a tandem.

12. Cleveland Browns -- West Virginia WR Kevin White: After passing on a receiver last year, they have to get one this time. This long receiver would be a big help.

13. New Orleans Saints -- Missouri OLB Shane Ray: They have to get better with the pass rush off the corner. Ray could do that.

14. Miami Dolphins -- Michigan State CB Trae Waynes: A young corner is needed with Brent Grimes getting up in years.

15. San Francisco 49ers -- Oklahoma WR Dorial Green-Beckham: They have to get better outside. Green-Beckham would do that.

16. Houston Texans -- Washington CB Marcus Peters: Kareem Jackson is a free agent, so Peters could step in and play if he leaves. If not, he can help in the sub packages.

17. San Diego Chargers -- Miami (Fla.) OT Ereck Flowers: They need to upgrade their line. This kid could move inside to guard or maybe play right tackle and move D.J. Fluker inside.

18. Kansas City Chiefs -- Florida State OL Cameron Erving: If they let Rodney Hudson leave, Erving could play center. If not, he could be a guard.

19. Cleveland Browns -- Louisville WR DeVante Parker: They passed on a receiver last year, so give them two this time around. With Josh Gordon gone, they need help.

20. New York Jets -- LSU CB Jalen Collins: He is long and rangy and coming of a nice combine workout. The Jets need help at corner in the worst way.

21. Cincinnati Bengals -- LSU T La'el Collins: Andrew Whitworth is getting older and Andre Smith can be a free agent next year.

22. Pittsburgh Steelers -- Virginia OLB Eli Harold: They need to get help for the outside pass rush. This kid has all the tools.

23. Detroit Lions -- Florida State DT Eddie Goldman: Ndamukong Suh, Nick Fairley and C.J. Mosley are free agents.

24. Arizona Cardinals -- Oregon DE Arik Armstead: He is a big, physical force in the same mold as Calais Campbell.

25. Carolina Panthers -- Florida T D.J. Humphries: This is a player rising up a lot of boards who I see as a Ryan Clady-type left tackle.

26. Baltimore Ravens -- Ohio State WR Devin Smith: With Torrey Smith likely moving on, they get another Smith to become their deep speed outside.

27. Dallas Cowboys -- Iowa DT Carl Davis: I know they need help up front off the edge, but Davis is moving up on a lot of team's boards and would fill a need inside.

28. Denver Broncos -- Oklahoma DT Jordan Phillips: They are going to a 3-4 and need a nose tackle. This 335-pounder could handle that.

29. Indianapolis Colts -- Mississippi State ILB Bernardrick McKinney: They need to get tougher inside at linebacker. This kid is a big, physical player.

30. Green Bay Packers -- UCLA LB Eric Kendricks: They let two inside backers walk so far, and they need to get faster. Kendricks would do that.

31. Seattle Seahawks -- Miami WR Philip Dorsett: At some point they have to get somebody who can stretch the field. The knee injury to Paul Richardson plays into this pick.

32. New England Patriots -- Michigan TE/WR Devin Funchess: He can take on the same role Aaron Hernandez used to have in their offense. I think he's more of a move tight end on the next level. cbs sports

Prisco usually has pretty good info on what teams are looking hard at what players. It may not be who they draft but strong interest is generally present. One group is gonna slid he has the receivers, I felt it may be the passrushers but hope he is right.