DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Ferguson Police Department Found Guilty Of Discrimination

On the actual topic of this thread, the Ferguson police department needs a serious overhaul and re training accompanied by some racial sensitivity training. This DOJ report was concerning to say the last and makes me wonder how many other small cities conduct business in this way.

There was a report on NYC trying to change all of the sentiment with eight hour long lectures on a weekend...

Talk about an awful way to try and make change. Even I know, as an educator, that's nothing but a waste of time.

Most of those officers fell asleep, were bored, or thought it had no use because it gave them no tactical skills.

I would have a focus groups (many of them with different community members and officers each time) with members of the community and the police. People need to feel they are cared about....both community members and officers.


They need to realize a common goal for community.

8 hour lectures on the weekend, boring and unproductive. We need innovation and creativity.

I didn't understand the posts to be as understated as, "Can you truly say there are no lazy unmotivated people in this world?".

I read it as, "If they can find the time to riot then they can find the time to vote, but they don't because they're too lazy."

Maybe I'll go back and read them again, but please feel free to state what was meant in a more understandable way that doesn't read like what I read.

How do you get somebody the experience to run for office? You're making it seem simple when it's not.

oh and here: here's a outdated list, so there's probably more:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-w...-ready-for-war/

just incase that wasn't enough:

http://news.yahoo.com/as-wars-wind-down--small-town-cops-inherit-armored-vehicles-233505138.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anaswanson/2...nvestment-game/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio...ebate/10221551/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/03/10/america-police-military-weapons-column/5789445/
http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/24/small-town-with-hardly-any-crime-given-a-war-tank/
http://theantimedia.org/small-town-in-florida-obtains-mrap-armored-vehicle/

have at it.

and just for added dramatic effect let's compare this to an MRAP in its natural habitat:

Here's a typical Iraqi checkpoint:



Here's another one:


Here's some road maps a typical MRAP would experience if it had a soul:


Here's how i have to wrap up as a gunner in iraq, on top of a MRAP:


Here's what the side of the highways in Iraq looks like, from the view of a MRAP:


and other:


this is me and my homeboy, getting rdy to go on mission, in a MRAP:


this is me getting turned up before mission, just put the 50 on top of the MRAP:

typical scenery before a night mission:


and last but not least, the MRAP in all of her glory:


_________

now, a lot of you guys are probably wondering: "swish, why clog the thread with pics of missions of MRAPs?"

Thats a good question, and I have a good answer.

This vehicle....has NO BUSINESS belonging to some small town here in America.

example: Ferguson.

Are there IED's on the side of the road there?
Are there Iraqi checkpoints I wasn't aware of?
Are there people with RPG's on the rooftops there?
Do I have to start throwing bottles of water to the kids there like we had to in Iraq?
Do I need to walk around with a scarf because of sand storms?


If the answer is no to any of those questions, which it is, then WHY?

Not only are we starting to become some militarized police state, but the fact is that when you have some show of force like that, after ALREADY having issues with white cops in a minority dominated city, WHY should blacks trust them? Like I said, you have to REQUEST an MRAP from the government. They just don't up and give you one.

It's just another problem that builds up to create a crap storm. thats all i'm saying.

I'll take it one step further Swish. Why should ANY of us trust militarizing our police forces?

We shouldn't. At all.

You got cops doing no knock raids. We got PD's issuing warrants for simple crap and sending SWAT teams to arrest people, for non violent crimes.

we got the government buying up Ammo, and now trying to ban certain ammo thats used for popular rifles because "cops".

So in theme with this thread. Even other white people can't trust the damn cops anymore, but now minorities in Ferguson are suppose to?

Come on now.

About 14,000 of the 21,000 people that live in Ferguson are black. You can't tell me that they are all so poor that none of them can run for mayor... or that the rest are all so poor that they can't offer up a little something.... none of them have connections in nearby St. Louis that couldn't offer up a little money...

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next election because if a black person in Ferguson went on-line at the next election and posted something on FB that said, "I want to run for Mayor of Ferguson to try to change the racist culture, please donate $10 to help me make that happen"... given the national exposure of Ferguson, that person would have tens of thousands of dollars from all over the country in 48 hours... if there isn't a black mayor or several black city councilmen after the next election, it will be because they just don't care.


That's a completely different issue but yes, I see it as a problem. If you haven't seen it, you should watch the youtube video of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver where he discusses Ferguson and the militarization of small towns. He talks about one town in Michigan that has some of that equipment and through the freedom of information act they requested the application and one of the things they listed as a reason to get it was "to provide security at the annual pumpkin festival"...

N

Rock, simply put, it is the nature of the beast. We are all different and motivated and responsible on different levels. Not everyone desires a college degree, job and upstanding life.

Some people are going to be irresponsible and unmotivated by anything. It just is called being human. We are all different. We need to accept that some are content living off the government. That is fine. It is being human.

Thanks for replying. And thanks for the pictures.

How do I get somebody the experience to run for office? If they speak for the community and have an issue with those currently in office - then run. I've often thought, if I were to run for office, that one of my biggest assets would be "I'm not them. I'm not an insider. We see what the insiders have gotten us, why not elect an outsider that lives in the real world?"

I bet it would go a long ways towards votes.

So, the mrap in Ferguson........showed up during the riots and looting, right? If you were a cop, and people were burning buildings, breaking into buildings, smashing stuff, etc.......would you like to be in one of those? Or would you rather walk up, on foot?

According to your link, Ohio has 36 mraps out in cities. Given to them by the federal gov't. (probably had to pay some).

Now, if I saw one cruising down my road I'd wonder what was going on. However, if there was rioting, arson, looting etc going on in town, I'd be glad the local cops had something like that. Wouldn't you?

When did the mrap show up in Ferguson? Before the locals went all "bust this town up", or after?

Great pics Swish. Thanks for sharing them with us and most of all..... for your service!!

No, I absolutely do not. That supports the country turning into a police state.

that should tell you the issues we have in this country if we are seriously debating if military grade equipment needs to be used on our citizens, for whatever reason.

thanks Cjrae. I told you about that though, stop thanking me.

Fair enough. However, it should tell you something when don't even show up to vote, but gripe about the vote, shouldn't it?

yes. I never said you was wrong, I just said it's a bit more complicated.

Everything is complicated.

People are saying "why vote when no one you like is on the ballot?" And I'm saying "if that's the case, get your ass on the ballot." Quit sitting around griping - DO something about it. Don't make excuses - that's for the weak.

I'm still a bit shocked that I'm one of the 2, in your opinion.

I don't know why you're shocked. You've post these same sentiments on other threads before about voting and such.

I have? Hey, I don't go in for excuses on why people "can't" vote.

Yes, I was a bit shocked that you included me in the..."typical 2 people that.....".

If you want to vote, you can. You can get a ride to the polling station, you can get an absentee ballot. If you truly desire to vote, the means are there. Period.

And if you don't like the options, do something to get a better option on the ballot.

You called me out. I'm responding.

That's cool. I appreciate you responding to the call out. To be honest there's only a few on EE who doesn't respond to the call out.

I think the problem with voting is that, more often than not, we end up voting party lines in this country. In a small town like Ferguson, it seems like there's only one way to vote, which makes it even worse. I can't imagine living there, however, it seems like those people were sold a dream of change maybe in the earlier years, that didn't happen, and they just simply gave up.

even with new blood, politicians are more or less selling people dreams just to get votes, so they probably voted for people who said they were gonna change, and it never happened.

Then they need to run someone.

If the problem is that severe, and it is perceived as a lack of Black representation, then a Black person who is qualified to hold office should run away with the election if they run. However, they have to run. If only middle aged White guys run, then there is little sense in complaining about a lack of representation.

Easily understood, but what's the connection to Ferguson, because it seemed an attempt was made to call the rioters lazy non-voters.

Living off the government is done by many types of people. Some are wealthy and some are poor. Some get a pass on their behavior and some are heavily criticized. Laziness occupies a broad band of our culture as well as motivation and other good and bad characteristics.

As far as lazy rioters; I suppose if they were wealthy they could get what they want by buying legislation, but they're a different lazy I guess.

Of course I'm not sure I want apply that stereotype to anybody, unless we're willing to apply it to everybody.

You mean like the election between Gore and Bush, or Obama and McCain? I can tell you I didn't like either option, but I knew who I liked less. I guess people need to vote the lesser of two evils then.

As for people not voting in their local elections, this is a failure of the education system. The schools don't teach that government starts locally, and your local elections are more important than national elections. You will get more services from your local government than the state or fed. The federal government has spent decades destroying the importance of local elections, starting with the 17th amendment (back in the day when the state legislature picked your senators, because you picked the state legislature). One of the worst effects of the 17th amendment is that it deemphasized the local and state elections to the point where most people don't vote unless a national election is involved.

We are having parallel conversations here, which is making it a bit confusing...


I would bet that the vast majority of people who run for city council in a town like Ferguson (or even bigger cities) have no political experience. They are just citizens, business people, who want to make a difference. Most of them are not rich, most do not have a lot of rich friends.. most do not have political science degrees or law degrees.... they just want to make a difference in their community. I'm 100% certain that there are black people that fit that mold in Ferguson right now.

As far as the militarization of our towns, I agree with you so there is really no need to elaborate.

B


Apply it to anyone you want. Point is, some of the Ferguson residents showed up to loot, burn and riot. They found a way to get to a particular place to participate just like they could find a way to get to a particular place to vote.

Of course. Maybe I missed the emphasis on "some" before.

Perhaps! :-)

The only thing I can say to that is go onto medicare/medicaid and Section 8 housing. Your healthcare is substandard, often seeing only a NP overseen by a physician who oversees hundreds of patients. Section 8 housing are often pits of criminal activity.

I believe the more to the point question is, why is our DOJ supplying these vehicles to small towns in America? I would put that up with, why is the DOJ stocking NOAA, USPS, and other unarmed divisions with ammunition? Is this to intimidate American citizens?

One deputy sheriff in Spokane, WA said, "We need MRAPs to deal with Constitutionalists." Does that mean people like me, as I am an anti-federalist and believe the fed should stick to the Constitution, Tea Party members, or people like you, who have sworn an oath to protect the country against all enemies, foreign or domestic?

I want one. Can that thing fit in an automatic car wash?

This isn't specifically in reply to Tulsa.. you just happened to be on the bottom of the list!

I'll tackle this in parts:

The DOJ Report, well, the leaks... from my understanding the reported bias goes beyond just the actions of FPD... they extend in to the court system as well. I think it was a natural progression for the DOJ to look in to the possibility of far ranging bias in policing practices. BUT let's not forget.. the DOJ was initially investigating Darren Wilson for Civil Rights violations for no other reason than he was white and Michael Brown was black.

Looking through what has been revealed so far I was fairly confident that the findings were legit. I mean its not impossible and there have been other agencies that have gone overhauls under the guidance of the DOJ: Seattle PD and I believe they are looking at Albuquerque right now. That is until I got to the end. If these things are as rampant as claimed, then the DOJ should be taking an active hand in the overhaul. SO far it sounds like they have put together a list of 20 or so recommendations... if the PD and City don't comply, THEN they will face a lawsuit??? Just seems strange to me.

-Darren Wilson. Nearly from the get go any reasonable person and particularly those who have law enforcement experience/knowledge, based on what was known at the time, that Wilson was going to be vindicated. Today the healines scream that "Hands up, don't shoot" was a bogus claim, but within a week or two of the actual incident the credibility of that claim unraveled nearly daily. The only people who couldn't see it were one's who had their own agenda. Will Wilson be a cop again? If he wants to be, I honestly don't think he'll have much of a problem getting on somewhere, either a small town place, or even a large department. People have short memories and if he came to work on my department, I doubt any of the citizenry would recognize who he was.

--The 8 hour NYPD training. I'm surprised that those who mentioned it left out a pretty important detail about that training. They actually told the officers that when they find themselves in a stressful situation to literally close your eyes and take a deep breath. I think you guys have enough imagination to have some idea what might qualify as a "stressful" situation. You tell me if closing your eyes would be a smart idea?

--MRAPS in Ferguson. I'm fairly certain that Ferguson PD didn't own them. If I recall it was the Sheriff's office and I think the Feds. The shooting actually happened a couple days before the story broke nationally. At the scene people were chanting "Kill the cops, kill the cops". Subsequently there were protests at the PD where the station was nearly over run and multiple police cars were damaged. They only have 53 officers total and don't think the Chief is going to risk his arse in the middle of crowd control. I think it is fair to say that FergPD didn't have the manpower or ability to handle a protest that was no longer peaceful and had every indication of getting worse. So now you have the MRAPS and Media converging on Ferguson at the same time, giving the appearance that the heavy hardware was the first step when it actually wasn't.

Now to those worried about the "militarization" of police... Let's start with the MRAP.

What is the functional difference between an MRAP and the armored Brink's truck? None. They are both heavily armored vehicles designed to protect its occupants. That's it. If the MRAP happens to protect against IED's better than the Brink's truck, so what? I can pretty much guarantee you that PD's aren't taking MRAPs because they are afraid of IED's.

Because it has a turret that a machine gun can be mounted on? GUess what? My 1979 Jeep CJ5 with a little work in the garage can be outfitted with a heavy machine gun mount. IN fact Jeeps were designed as military vehicles, yet I don't see anyone freaking about seeing them on the streets.

They look scary? Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. 'Presence' is considered a level of force. Just the mere presence of a police car gets you to slow down, or start driving 10 and 2... we all get that feeling of anxiety... I'm sure Swish is scrambling to figure out a good place to hide his weed (just giving you a hard time man! ). But there IS a difference between terrorizing people and being intimidating. I'll submit that I did not like the footage of men with automatic weapons on overwatch of the protestors. I think that was unreasonable and excessive. Now when I say 'intimidating' I'm not talking about beating someone down through force of will. I'm talking about the kind of person who you can look at and know that this guy knows what he is doing and is capable of. This works in two ways: 1) its what makes the bad guy think twice about fighting or running and 2) its what makes the people who call for help feel like they are going to be protected and their complaints taken care of. Believe me, you DON'T want an entire department of 1 bullet Barney Fifes.

But why would any department want an MRAP? Simply because most often they get them for free or dirt cheap. The Bearcat was the go to armored vehicle for exceptional domestic police situations... except they are expensive as all hell and most municipal departments aren't willing to part with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to acquire something that doesn't get used all that often.

SWAT teams I do think have a tendency to be used too often. Not because I buy in to this false premise that every single person involved in the drug trade is a peaceful and non-violent hippy. When you start looking at the people who are producing/dealing on up to trafficking levels of drugs, they often have violent records (assaults/robberies ...) Just because that guy is believed to have a kilo of heroin doesn't mean he's not likely to be violent.

You also want a SWAT team that is capable when it comes time to hostage situations, or making entry on a barricaded murder suspect. Those are things I CAN do as a patrolman, but those are things they can do better. But having a well equipped and trained specialized unit like that costs $$. Anything that costs $$ always comes down to a cost/benefit analysis and has to be justified. Just like the MRAP, SWAT teams outside of very large cities aren't going to get used on a daily basis.

The other thing to consider that you guys have no idea about, is just how scared police departments are of getting sued. Even when everything is done right and they can win the law suit. My department has policies in place that actually put our lives in MORE danger because that policy is meant to protect the dept in case of a lawsuit. They are equally scared of bad press because many Chiefs lack the courage to engage the public. So when there are high risk duties that a patrolman is capable of doing, they will often opt to have the SWAT team do it assuming there is less likelihood of something going wrong.


It's late and I have to go, but I'll finish my ramblings with this: the law enforcement profession is suffering from a crisis in leadership. It's this kind of leadership that holds good officers back from doing the most good in a community, its also the same leadership that foster breeding grounds for corruption and poor policing practices as alleged in the DOJ report.

I'll probably have some more thoughts on this after I get some sleep today.

So, who's ready for the Gestapo?

Eric Holder "We are prepared to use all the powers that we have, all the power that we have, to ensure that the situation changes there. That means everything from working with them to coming up with an entirely new structure," Holder said. When asked if that included dismantling the department, he said, "If that's what's necessary, we're prepared to do that."

Are you sure you want a federal police force? What was it that Obama said when he was running for office?

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Isn't this how most dictators get their start? They create a military to control the populace then impose their will backed by the "civilian national security force". So far, this administration has taken over health care, education, repurposed FEMA, and now they are going to start taking over police departments......Are you worried yet?

Wow. I didn't agree with anything you said.

You're defending intimidation of citizens. I can't get with that. Ever.

A cop defending his toys.

I'm shocked - said no one ever.

That actually is rather frightening, the way you present it. We take a lot on faith that no administration of either party will pursue such an agenda.

We have a president that does not believe in the Constitution or the rule of law. He is changing laws after they have passed, and he is using presidential edict to impose laws he can't get passed by congress. I believe we are all in peril of losing our country.

When he promised to "fundamentally transform America" during his first presidential run, how many of you questioned, "into what?"

I was thinking about the Texas Border patrols where the civilians are policing the borders...basically with the purpose of keeping illegals from crossing over to 'assist' the government.

Protecting your property is one thing, but to actively patrol a neighborhood, armed and with authority...not sure how I feel...

So is it really "just this president"? If so, then he will be out of office soon and a president who "does believe in the constitution" will change all of this?

I believe that's where everyone will be disappointed. That or they'll simply make excuses why it's different for the new president to continue this behavior.

Look at the Patriot Act. That changed privacy and rights for all Americans. That wasn't Obama. Neither party really worries about our rights or the constitution unless it's about rhetoric and votes.

It may be convenient to point the fingers at the one in office at the time, but unless you think the other party or next president is going to relinquish such power, then who the president is at the time really isn't the point.

I'm going to apply for a jack boot concession license. With a twitter friendly business slogan - #igotssole

I accepted long ago that when it comes to stuff like this, I'm not likely to reach you on any level so I'll try to limit the back and forth in the interests of keeping it civil because there are other unrelated issues that we have agreed on.

I'm not defending the intimidation of citizens and the only way you can make that inference is if you want to pick and choose what you want to hear. People who try to forcibly over running buildings, damage vehicles, burn property, loot, and riot are NOT people engaging in lawful civilized conduct. No one wants to see an MRAP on our streets.. but guess what? No one wants to see a bunch of a-holes burn down innocent people's livelihoods either.

When you can show me instances where police are driving MRAPs on routine patrols or pulling over speeders, I will be 100% on your side.

cops shouldn't have it, period.

Unless our country becomes an active war zone, there's zero reason to have military grade weaponry and equipment on civilians. period. I will never support that.