DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns sign Randy Starks

If Shelton played any other position than nose tackle, would people be okay with our first round pick sitting out 1/2 to 2/3 of the plays?

Huge bust? How so? He was drafted in the late first round and has been an average contributor. That is not what we would want, but is also not a huge bust.

I doubt it. Somehow fans are now conditioned to the fact the big fatties can't play every down anymore. They watched the Waffel House cook Rogers ride a training bike every training camp for a couple of years.



Bob Lilly played at about 280 lbs. I think it was a better game then. I remember watching games in the mid 60's and the announcers made a big deal that Roger Brown of the Lions was the first player to top 300 lbs. He looked like a big fat guy to me.

Phil Taylor will always be remembered as the guy we got with Greg Little, Owen Marecic and Brandon Weeden... instead of Julio Jones.

Let that sink in for a second.

Not his fault, but just a big part of a very bad trade idea. Considering what we COULD have had instead of what we ended up with, he'll always be considered a bit of a bust in that respect.

And quite frankly, his play on the field hasn't warranted first round status....He's not a significant game changer. Just a run of the mill DL. The first round picks should be game changers.

Do we trade Taylor because he's not a game changer but plays a vital role in our D Line rotation? We'll have to replace him if we want to be better against the run. This isn't an addition by subtraction proposition. Taylor is not an individual star but simply taking him out of our defense creates a void that has to be filled.

Better to protect him by having other guys he can rotate with. We'll be paying him this year, regardless.

Yeah, he hasn't been a bust. Busts are guys who have a 1st season like Gilbert or Manziel had, and never get things turned around. That's not Taylor.

He's not a bust, but he has been disappointing. He has never become as disruptive as he was reputed to be. He is not a game changer to any extent in the middle. If he was a 4th or 5th round pick, and was paid accordingly, then maybe he'd be OK ..... but he's not been a guy you build a DL around. He is a rotational guy, at best.

Similar to the Trent Richardson/Colts/Manziel fiasco and the Bills/Gilbert trade, the trades were good. The picks were bad.

Good God you guys don't expect much. I guess that is understandable considering this teams first round picks. He would not be considered a bust if he had been picked in the 6th or 7th round. What has been our rushing defense statistics since he has been with the team? It has gotten worse.

What were your expectations for Taylor?

Here is a list of every player drafted 21st overall since 1970. There are a few gems (Randy Moss), but for the most part all of the players are average to above-average players. That is what Taylor has been throughout his career.

As for the comment about us being a worse rush defense with Taylor; in Taylor's first year (2011), we had the 30th ranked rushing defense by yardage, in 2012 we were 19th, 18th in 2013, and 32nd in 2014 (a season in which Taylor only played four games).

What was your point again?

UMmmmmm the player that I watch on the field sucks imo and you won't change my mind on that. Now I was at the Cincy game down here in Cincy and that was his best game by far. We'll see, I don't think he lasts past this year if that.

So when the points you make don't work, go to something else that is less tangible. Makes sense.

If he sucks so much, what makes you think someone would trade for him?

Why do you feel he is such a great player? What have you seen that backs that up?

I don't think anyone said he was a great player. The argument is people disagree w/ you calling him a bust. Specifically, the term average to above average was used.

I fall in between the two sides here-- I don't think he is a bust but he hasn't lived up to expectations. Two things are a factor-- injuries and scheme changes.

Taylor was drafted to be the 43DT Pass rusher at the 3-tech if I am not mistaken. When his pectoral injury happened it set him back big time, but when Taylor was playing that position, I thought he played really well.

Now, in the 34, he's played two different positions (NT & DE) in two years under two different versions of 34 defenses. Others probably know more and will correct me but Ray Horton's defenses (particularly at the DE spot) weren't about two gap integrity as much as getting after the QB (that 'attacking' defense we heard referenced so much) When Phil was the NT there, I thought he played adequately. Now this defense seems to be a more traditional 34 scheme particularly with the DE-- be responsible for the two gaps, let defenders behind you makes the plays, and stop inside runs. Taylor, who played DE this year, didn't fit the mold. But that's just me. I'm also thinking Desmond Bryant doesn't really fit this DE role either. He was more an attacking player rather than a gap stuffer.

In O'Neill's defense, I think the most suitable role for Taylor is the NT. Teams who ran the 34 looked at Taylor in the draft before Heckert moved up a couple slots for him.

Maybe Rubin? Seems like a solid signing. Welcome aboard. Just win , baby!

I would agree with that. Now even in this scheme if he can play like he did against Cincy the first game then we might have something. Overall though with the injuries (20 missed games in 4 years?), I have been very disappointed.

That's my exact feelings on the signing. Nothing to add and nothing to debate with your post tab.

j/c

Starks is basically an older but cheaper version of Rubin.

EO by 6-7 max did you mean that is what you expect for DL in the final 53? I have been asking what people expect us to do when we now sit with 7 worthy DL and are expected to draft at least one. There's no way we got into the season with 8 DL.

Oh I disagree with that.

Starks is somewhat more of a pass rusher, but is in no way a guy you want to play the run.

Rubin is more of a guy to play the run and pursue sideline to sideline, but he is not as strong a pass rusher.

They are 2 different players.

I also would not discount the possibility that we bring back Rubin. If he does not find a new home elsewhere, we could agree on a discounted contract. Stranger things have happened. (I have to add, in full disclosure, that Rubin is one of my favorite Cleveland Browns in the time from 1999 to present)

What I believe is in question is do all of the DL we currently have fit what they want to do? I agree with you that keeping 8 is almost impossible to see. However, if they feel someone doesn't fit and an upgrade in the draft is possible, I can see the possibility of one of our current DL being traded or shown the door.

Dansby explains how he helped recruit Starks


When the Browns signed linebacker Karlos Dansby one year ago, the franchise knew it was getting a fearless leader who wouldn’t be scared to set teammates straight.
What the club didn’t realize was that Dansby’s sphere of influence goes beyond the locker room in Berea.

Two weeks ago, Dansby saw on ESPN’s Bottom Line that the Miami Dolphins had released defensive lineman Randy Starks. Instantly, he felt compelled to call Browns general manager Ray Farmer.
“I told Ray, ‘I don’t know if Randy’s name is going to come up in the conversation, but if it does, I’m telling you he’s our type of guy,’” Dansby said in an interview Tuesday with ClevelandBrowns.com.
The phone conversations didn’t just stop there, though.

Dansby called Starks directly, gushing to his former teammate about coach Mike Pettine and defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil’s defensive system, how the culture in Cleveland has changed, how Starks legitimately could become that one versatile piece on the defensive line Cleveland missed in 2014.
The pitch worked.

Starks signed a two-year deal with the Browns on Monday to bolster the Browns’ defensive line. Starks cited Dansby’s message as a reason he considered Cleveland to be the most attractive destination.
“I know what Randy can bring to the table, and I know what we we’re looking for,” Dansby said. “I told him, ‘Bro, we need your services.’ I know that we needed a lineman that could play every position within the defense – and he fit the bill. He’s been doing this his whole career.
“He’s a hard worker and he’s a leader. He’s just the perfect fit for what we are trying to do and the direction we’re going.”

Back in 2010, Dansby arrived in Miami as key free agent acquisition and quickly helped restored the Dolphins defense into the upper echelon category alongside Starks. The Dolphins ranked sixth in the NFL in defense and fourth in yards-per-carry allowed (3.6).

The scheme in Cleveland is different from Miami, but last season’s defensive dexterity was the biggest takeaway from a 7-9 campaign. The building blocks for success jump off the roster page. The secondary boasts three Pro Bowlers, Dansby’s linebacking unit can constantly make game-changing momentum plays and Paul Kruger proved he’s still a sack machine.
But the element that was missing was consistently shutting down opposing running backs. There’s no denying the fact that the Browns ranked 32nd in total rushing yards allowed. And a chunk of the issues started at the line of scrimmage.
Starks has posted impressive sack numbers for a defensive lineman with four straight four-sack seasons. But Dansby said Starks’ bread and butter is the nastiness to his approach in limiting running backs, a method that became contagious with the Dolphins.
“Randy loves to stop the run,” Dansby said. “That’s what he hangs his hat on.

That was year-in and year-out. He was a stickler. He hates giving up rushing yards. You’ve got to have that kind of attitude in order to stop the run.
“Randy’s a straight-up animal, man. When you talk to him, he seems real calm and cool. But once we get in between the white lines, he’s a different person. And I know that’s what we need up front. Not only is he going to show some of the guys the way, just his presence is huge.”

Dansby ended the phone conversation with Starks by letting him know he thinks Cleveland is just getting started. As Dansby reminded reporters in December, there were pundits in 2014 who predicted the Browns to go 1-15.
There’s no denying the franchise waned in a winless December. But on the same hand, there’s no denying Cleveland’s defense had the team in playoff contention at Thanksgiving.

“You gotta remember nobody in this whole building ever played in this defense before,” Dansby said. “We had a learning curve last year and still showed results. This next year with this scheme, I think we’ll be 10 times better. A lot of plays that weren’t getting made are going to get made.”

Every defensive lineman you keep, is a linebacker you can't. In a 3-4 defense linebackers are supposed to be a priority.... everywhere but Cleveland of course.


I'm thinking they plan on moving Taylor. Last season they played him out of position. He is not a defensive end. He can play Nose, but he's really a 4-3 DT. Either way, if they aren't going to play him at nose, then they need to move him. Perhaps this signing will let them do that. Since playing DT's at end is the goal. Personally, I was hoping we'd draft a REAL defensive end in the draft. A tall, athletic DE to bookend with Bryant. A guy that might get us 10 sacks. But a guy like that wouldn't really fit in Pettines NPD I suppose.

Starks had one season(2009) where he got 7 sacks. Other than that he never hit 5 in a season. He's a pass rushing DE? Hardly. However, in Pettines NPD he fits perfectly.

We can only hope....

Maybe I'm interpreting this the wrong way (my apologies if I am), but I'm commenting on the bold part. If you just stated the point - the first sentence and the suppose to be a priority, I wouldn't comment on your post. But didn't like the "everywhere but Cleveland of course" comment, no reason to add it.

*Yes different regimes so I'm not implying Farmer/Pet picked all these guys b/c that would be incorrect but..

OLB Kruger - top free agent signing for us (2013)
ILB Dansby - top free agent signing for us (2014)
ILB Robertson - avg/maybe above avg player looking to re-sign (2012)
ILB Kirksey - 3rd round draft pick last year (2014)
OLB Mingo - 1st round pick for us (2013)

Yes, we need some depth (we haven't had the draft yet, or June 1st cuts) but the past couple regimes have added Linebackers.

Actually, I don't know the reps but people like Eric Martin and Eubanks had gotten some live reps. Let us not forget that Solomon guy's first appearance where he just beast moded it. Next game he got cold, but then it was like the end of the season lol. We may have some decent depth already. I am not a fan of Tank Carder so I won't mention him outside of his big role on special teams!

We need to get some outside rushers. Paul Kruger cannot be the only outside backer getting into the backfield.

JMO

I agree with your statement.

The point I was making is we have invested in our LB group the past couple years. At least you can see it with our starters and yes we do need another pass rusher. (and I agree about Tank, lol)

One of our biggest issues with our team and key positions is the "unknown" / development. And from our (fans) perspective we don't know how these guys have looked in past practices or we aren't there seeing if they are putting in the work in the offseason. Yes, our views really don't mean much b/c we don't make the team decisions. Its why we have to be patient to see what the FO has planned and what they think of certain players.

examples of the unknown:

Mingo played well/solid for basically having one arm. Will he develop more this coming year?

Gilbert - we hear he's putting in work and focusing, but how much is the truth? Will he develop?

Manziel - he's in rehab, he's not in rehab, he's in rehab, he won't play this year (so many rumors) Will he really contribute for us this year or in the future? Do we really need to find another option? (either way, we need to be trying to find another one in case)


Those are just 3 examples of key positions. Heck, if even Mingo and Gilbert play up to potential I will be happy b/c that means two key positions are solidified. Means less focusing on the defense for next year.

He's not a huge sack man, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't get pressure.

Further, most 4-3 DT get in that 4-7 sack range. He's a guy who is going to get you 20-30 tackles, depending on how many snaps he plays.

He did have 6 tackles for loss last year. (out of 28 total tackles) He played 51% of the Dolphins defensive snaps. He also had 6 QB pressures. (all according to sportingcharts.com) He had 4.5 sacks. That is a DT who played on the opposite side of the LOS frequently.

He's not a DE. He's not JJ Watt. Marcell Dareus was the league leader among DT with 10 sacks. If I counted right, Starks was 15th among DT with those 4.5 sacks. He is going to help us against the pass more than the run, IMHO. Now Dansby seems to think that he will help against the run, and I hope that he is right .... but I still see him as more of a rush man.

I Def think Taylor sticks around, and I think he got a bad rap this year being injured all year. ..but I will say that I give him a lot of credit for shutting down the cincys o in that first game last year, ,,

He was a beast that game, then got hurt and was done for the year....but when he's healthy, and now a second year in the scheme. ...he will improve the d line and run d tremendously. ..he Def creates problems for teams trying to run on us, and I'm fairly certain Pettine sees him as an important cog in the trenches. ..

imo, our d line is a different beast when he's playing healthy. ..

That is pretty much nothing for a veteran player who has been very good in the past.

Good signing.