DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The QB Situation in 2016-2017

QB situation in 2016/2017 ??? Feh. I can't comment on the exact nature of the original post - but looks as if the thread has taken the usual turn.

Keeping it about football - and posting here instead of the Bradford/Manziel/Glennon threads .... In a nutshell:

1. Are we still crying over taking Manziel??? Or are we moving past that and trying to have a real Cleveland Browns football conversation??? Are we moving past it with a big "BUT IF WE HAD TAKEN (fill in the blank) THEN WE WOULDN'T NEED THIS DISCUSSION" ??? Which of course if not moving past anything - it's just an agenda. Reminds me of the classic "I am not racist BUT" ... comments.

2. Moving on from Manziel and facing what we had going into the offseason - I would have been happy to resign Hoyer. I think there is more that Hoyer can offer and I expect him to win the starting QB job in Houston - or outperform Mallett when Hoyer does see first team reps. . . . Having said that I think we basically have a similar player in McCown - and if we get the Bears version we'll be in an okay shape. . . . Based on where we were - and what was available, we are in as good as shape as we could have been.

3. Still looking at what might happen - even if some of it is remote: I'd take any of these guys in a heartbeat over JM and JM .... Bradford, Rivers, Mariotta, Winston ..... don't think any of that will happen. But I'd think any of them would be an upgrade. I'd also take Glennon. I don't know that he's better than McCown if McCown recovers his Bears form. BUT - he's got upside, he's young, with our current status - we'd be fools not to explore options .... IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. Maybe a 3rd next year or 4th rnd pick this year?

4. 2016/12017 ???? Pfft. None of has a crystal ball. We speculate enough about the here and now - let alone 16 months away. A draft away. A pre-season away. A season to go through. A FA period to go through and another draft to get to .... What a waste of breath to try and talk about next year. Just agenda driven B.S wrapped up to look like a football discussion. Gee what a surprise.

JOhnny will be our starter unless he totally flops in camp and preseason. McCown is here in case he does. There is no QB in this draft worth drafting in the first. Winston is fat, out of shape, has no accuracy when he has to move off the spot oo and he is a thief and a rapist when not playing football, but yea he is the #1 QB in this draft lol. Mariotta is a 2 or 3 year project. He lacks accuracy and can not make throws in tight spaces and honestly isnt very good at reading coverages.

There arent any better options out there in free agency nor via trade. We plan on winning games despite the QB position just like we did last year. Hopefully Johnny can move the chains and be that guy but our focus is on running the ball and playing great defense. I think Pettine is looking at it like this. What we get out of the QB is just a bonus as long as he isnt hurting the team, he is our guy.

Bottom line, if the QB protects the ball, we will protect the QB by being a throwback team. If you do not protect the ball, we will find someone that will. I am excited to see how this plays out, I expect Johnny to perform. If i am wrong, I will eat crow, rip Johnny and start looking towards the next option but for now, it is Johnny's team

That is the way to go at this point. have a stout D and run the ball with authority. Get what we can out of the qb position until we get someone better or if JM turns into something special.

I like the idea in theory (dominant D and running attack), but I can't remember the last time anybody had any success doing it. Plus, it seems to me that we'll need some more firepower at RB if we want to have that kind of owfense. I'm not quite as high on West & Crowell as a lot of posters are. I don't see either as "THE guy".

Dave we really have no choice than to do It that way because we lack talent at the qb position. As far as the running backs I read somewhere that we are looking at a back named Davis ( I think) in the upcoming draft. I think they said he ran a 4.38 forty. South Carolina maybe?

I think we have 2 backs that can be studs. I feel West is the better back and he will be a weapon in the passing game but when u get inside the 30 yard line, Crow becomes another animal entirely and its blood in the shark tank. He has that redzone bloodthirst that you see only in Hall of fame type backs.

I would like to see us add some more to the OL, I dont know if i would do it in the first round however. If we get to the point where Grecco and Schwartz are our backup interior and exterior linemen, that would be a beautiful thing.

(I posted this in the Draft forum, but it really belongs in this thread.)

Recognizing this scenario borders on fantasy, my ideal sequence of future events is;

1) We pay the extra 1st forward to next year while Manziel proves to be a competent if unspectacular NFL QB.

2) Chardale Jones wins the Ohio State job after Miller switches positions. Jones proves to be more than a 3 game wonder and then opts to enter the draft after his Junior(rs) season.

3) The Browns parlay their 2 1st rounders in the 2016 draft and land Jones who can then sit behind Manziel for a year while he learns the NFL game, then goes on to be the QB we have been waiting for.

Far-fetched, absolutely...but possible. A boy can dream, can't he?

Check out Seattle if you get a chance

Maybe we're not on the same page about what defines being "run-dominant". Seattle still passed the ball over 450 times last year - Russell Wilson had 20 TD passes, plus he added 849 yards rushing to their rush total, and I doubt those were all, or even mostly, designed runs. Besides, who takes the Russell Wilson role if we try to emulate Seattle? (Please don't tell me "JM" ... he'll get killed if we try that.)

Thanks to those of you who have decided not to follow guys like Willie, Ezrye, Daman, and that other guy who supposedly has me on ignore and just stick to the topic.

I don't agree w/all your takes, but I am cool w/that. We can learn from each other. Having different opinions is actually a good thing. Thanks again to all of you who have stuck to the thread topic and not made it yet another attack the poster thread.

How many pass attempts did the Seahawks have the year they won the Super Bowl?

what does it matter? last season is just as relevant as the season before.

they still went to the SB, regardless if they won or not, and Wilson's stats helped get them there, while we're once again struggling to even get out the basement in the division.

So we aren't supposed to look at teams that won how we are going to try and win?

Noted.

i didn't say that. but it seems like you're trying to downplay his stats this year because they didn't win the SB.

That's why i said what does it matter for last season or before? especially since we're talking progression from a 2nd year QB to year 3.

if JM can pull off even a rookie russell wilson year i'd be happy as hell.

Where did I lessen Wilson's accomplishments?

you still haven't answered the question on why his stats in the season of the SB win over the season of the SB loss matter.

It's pretty obvious swish. If people are saying you can't win with run game plus defense, and cfrs shows an example from less than 20 months ago to the contrary, that seems cut and dry. If someone doesn't see it, they don't want to.

I didn't think I needed to, it's pretty self-explanatory. It's not even about Wilson himself, it's about the strategy of the team.

The Seahawks passed the ball less than every team besides one (San Francisco, who was also very good) in 2013. The Seahawks also ran the ball the second most out of any team. They made and won the Super Bowl because they ran the ball well and played historically good defense.

It seems like our team will employ a similar strategy (with lesser players). I doubt it works, but it's what we're going to try.

(Just wanted to point this out: the Seahawks were also last in pass attempts in 2014 and second in rushing attempts.)

i wasn't responding to that. i simply wanted to know what his thought process was with regards to the statement. that's it.

there's so many ways to win in the nfl. What i was trying to get at is as far as QB, comparing the 2 seasons of wilson doesn't mean much, as they went to the SB back to back. of course his stats are going to improve from year 2 to 3. unless he was a bum.

got it. my bad bro.

anyways, i think JM could be a similar version of Wilson. but we need to figure out how.

cause so far, for 15 years, whatever the browns have been doing isn't working.

It's not about Wilson.

Save us the drama Vers...you hijacked your own thread by talking about a draft pick from last year - which was 2014 - rather than talking about 2016-2017 which was supposedly your "topic".

You started yet another agenda post and got called on it.

IMO - We play Manziel this year. If he flops the season we take a look at these guys:

Connor Cook QB 1 Michigan State rJr 6-4 220
Dak Prescott QB 2 Mississippi State rJr 6-1 230
Trevone Boykin QB 3 TCU rJr 6-1 208

I did watch a good deal of Cook/Prescott games, didn't see much of Boykin. Will be interested to see how these guys do this season (especially Prescott).

Only problem is, the FO has given us the options: Manziel, McCown, or a hopefully another draft pick who won't suck this time.

Well, with two first round picks and lots of cap space, the Browns could trade for *A* QB pick high in the first round, but the only question is will whomever we draft be *THE* QB we need to give us a few Super Bowl rings???

Anyone who has ever watched a Seattle game knows how the run game goes so goes their offense followed by a dominate defense. You said you can't remember a team employing these methods and winning well take a look at Seattle and there ya go. That is all.

In 2013, Seattle had 420 pass attempts, 509 rush attempts. 96 rush attempts were by Russell Wilson, but I have no idea how many were designed runs vs aborted pass attempts. Lets say it doesn't matter - then the pct's end up at Running plays @ 54.8% & Passing Plays @ 45.2.

By contrast, the 2014 Browns had Pass Plays @ 51.3% vs Run Plays @ 48.7%. If a team averages about 63 offensive plays per game, the Seahawks mix was 28 passes & 35 running plays. The Browns mix was 32 pass plays & 31 running plays. IMO, 4 less passes and 4 more runs per game would not turn the Browns (offensively) into the 2013 Seahawks, unless we find a (a.) Marshawn Lynch and (b.) Russell Wilson.

I was responding to the following quote by Mourg, when he used the term "throwback team".



To me, that would seem to be something more than Seattle's 55%-45% run/pass mix, which in a game would 35 run plays and 28 pass plays. When someone says "throwback", I'm thinking that's 40+ run plays and <20 pass attempts. I was trying to remember a team that did that in modern memory, and I couldn't. I sure didn't think that Seattle running the ball 4 more times a game was what defined "run-dominant", at least not to the point where it marginalizes the QB position, which was what I thought Mourg was talking about.

Joe Thomas: Johnny Manziel lost trust of locker room last year

Posted by Darin Gantt on April 6, 2015, 7:09 AM EDT

Browns quarterback Johnny Manziel might be nearing the end of his rehab, but he still has a way to go before he can legitimately walk back onto the field for his team.

Last year’s first-round pick still has a long climb back to football relevance, after making such a mess of his hand-delivered starting assignment last year. And it’s the way he handled that assignment that makes his teammates wonder.

“I think he’s going to have to prove to the team that football is important and being the man, being the starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, is important, it is his goal, his single goal in his life,” left tackle Thomas told Tony Grossi of ESPNCleveland.com. “You know, I think he lost probably a lot of trust among the guys on the team last year by the way he handled himself once he became the starter. And I think he had a lot of time to reflect, I’m guessing, after the season was over by the comments he made in the media and by his actions, checking himself into rehab, . . . I think those were really positive steps.

“I’m hoping when we comes back in April we see a new Johnny and everybody’s blown away with his commitment. And I think he’s got the talent, so it’s just a matter of if he commits himself to it, we can have a really good quarterback on our hands.”

Of course, the Browns have covered themselves for the possibility that he won’t by signing Josh McCown, and the fact they’ve been linked with Sam Bradford and Marcus Mariota makes it clear they’re not finished at the position.

“Obviously there’s some uncertainty with Johnny right now and that’s why we brought in Josh,” Thomas said. “He’s a guy that if he’s asked to carry the flag this year, he’s going to do a great job. There’s a chance we draft somebody or there’s a chance Johnny comes back and he’s a new person and he’s rededicated to football, and he turns into the great quarterback that we expected when we drafted him in the first round.”

And doing that might prove to be a bigger hurdle than anything he’s doing off the field.

link

I wasn't trying to use stats in the absence of eyeball-evidence, but was just trying to explain my earlier statement about not remembering a team that succeeded doing what Mourg seemed to be describing. I won't speak for Mourg, but I didn't think he was describing Seattle when he was talking about what our offense should look like, which was what both BTTB and CFRS15 seemed to think he WAS talking about.

Interesting choice of words coming out of Joe. he's one of a few guys in the locker room that you have to listen too when he speaks. I felt as if he's willing to give JM the chance to prove he serious. Doesn't sound as if it's a long rope however.

We'll see

If Johnny doesn't listen to an all pro like Joe then I don't think he'll listen to anyone, I hope he listens ....

A couple of thoughts after reading the newest posts:

--I don't think people realize just how good R. Wilson is? He is very underrated by most fans. His intelligence is a huge strength. He extends plays. He works harder than anyone on the team. He has a strong desire to be the best. He makes big plays when his team needs them. He puts them in very good situations w/his ability to read defenses. His arm is underrated. He is also an effective runner. This guy is a winner and they would not be where they are w/out him. Put Josh McCown or JM on that team and they don't win.

--Joe T's comments on Manziel were pretty harsh. It must have been even worse than we thought. Teammates don't typically throw guys under the bus like that. Both Manziel and Gilbert have received very harsh criticism from their teammates.

--I appreciate all of the good debate on this thread. We don't have to agree, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that we are going to be in the same position next year---which is--not knowing if we have our QB. Again, I hope I am wrong and JM lights it up, but I think the odds are stacked against the Browns finding their QB of the future during this season.

I have all the respect in the world for JT, but I don't see where he said JM lost the locker room. He made mistakes, and he definitely showed a lack of responsibility but I think the title over-reached in this case.

I sometimes wonder if it's like a chicken and egg dilemma. Do you need Elite WR/TE that can spread the field and catch the ball from an average QB, or an Elite QB that can get the ball to average WR/TE? Or is it a combination of the 2?

Are we set at QB? I don't know, we are going to have to go through the season to find out, no matter who we had/have at QB.

I've always been of the mindset, that we can't say that Luck, Bridgewater, Tannehill, etc would have made us winners, because so far we haven't been consistent at any position position besides LT for years, and a rookie QB needs some talent to succeed while he adjusts.

I think we have ruined more QBs, more so than just gotten poor QBs.

So until we get a stable staff, system and team, and produce consistent definable wins , I'm not sure we can truly evaluate the production of any single position by itself, without taking into account the complimentary positions involved.