My daughter had the awful experience of being invited by a friend to go with her and her mom to the mall.
Instead they took her to their house and attempted to convert her.
We blew our tops on that one and nearly called the police.
Thats sad. My children invite their friends to church functions all the time, but I'm always very clear with the parents about where they will going and what will be going on.
I agree that is totally disgusting. How can you witness to someone by lying to them. That kind of thing should never happen. I hope you had some words with their pastor about it. He should come down like a ton of bricks for them doing something like that. There is a reason why the Bible warns over being over zealous.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Have you asked your daughter what it is she likes about church? My church must have been doing something wrong as a kid, I hated the whole experience outside of crackers and grape juice.
well its a typical black church. lots of singing and dancing, some...umm....holy ghost moments if you will lol.
my daughter loves the singing and dancing, which is cool because she still learned a lot, explained to me who jesus was and why easter is important. so she was really engaged into it.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Heh.. I imagine it isn't shocking to say Lutheran churches could learn a lot from your average baptist church in entertaining children.
What I remember is basically sitting in a pew, getting in trouble for wiggling too much, and drawing/scribbling on little pieces of paper. Singing and dancing sure sounds like a step up...I was really really bored
If you're an atheist yourself you might want to be on the lookout for any threats of hellfire etc. they might tell her. It can be a real tossup with some churches on how they approach kids. Has she come home with any questions about that stuff yet?
Heh.. I imagine it isn't shocking to say Lutheran churches could learn a lot from your average baptist church in entertaining children.
What I remember is basically sitting in a pew, getting in trouble for wiggling too much, and drawing/scribbling on little pieces of paper. Singing and dancing sure sounds like a step up...I was really really bored
If you're an atheist yourself you might want to be on the lookout for any threats of hellfire etc. they might tell her. It can be a real tossup with some churches on how they approach kids. Has she come home with any questions about that stuff yet?
not sure what you mean by hellfire bro. enlighten me on that.
as far as any problems so far, it was her first time, and i didn't hear anything negative as of yet.
basically I'm just giving my daughters the freedom to learn whatever.
in reality, i doubt most kids understand the bible. i think actually comprehending it won't happen until maybe around high school? i'm not sure.
but it's going to go down like this: i'll take her every sunday as often as she wants, as consistently as she wants. once she gets to an age where she's truly understanding the bible and the church and the message, if she wants to continue down the religious path, i got her back 100 percent.
if not, i got her back 100 percent. It's her decision to make, not mine, ya know? one thing i won't do is bad mouth any religion directly to her. What i say on the board is truly how i feel about religion, but y'all are adults and i can talk trash to you guys lol.
sort of like this: when i talk about the military to civilians, i don't bad mouth the Army. i say what i like about it and how it helped me through life. but when i get around other soldiers or vets? bruh we be going IN on the military lmao.
i'm taking the same approach with this.
She did ask this question though Cob, and it completely screwed me up:
"dad" "ya Deniza" "if jesus is the son of god, then who is God's dad?" "uhhh....."
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I love when they say a Christian wrote it so its biased and has no meaning. There are a huge amount of Christian scholars and scientists but apparently I should never use anything they have worked with. What utter nonsense. Show me any legit report that contradicts what I have written with the same comparative effort to use. Feel free to prove me wrong that the morality of our country has had a sharp decline since prayer was removed. Good luck too because the numbers don't lie and you won't find any.
Several statistical sources, most notable the FBI, have said crime rates are reaching levels we haven't seen in decades... Crime rate is going down, not up:
So what is our motivation to be moral? It's simple. Self interest is what guides us to be moral. We do it for our eternal reward or we do it to be accepted by our society. As society becomes more and more morally bankrupt the things we used to consider atrocities become the new normal. The things that fall first are the thing our animal behavior wants to do. Sex or pleasure, eating, and being lazy/resting.
I'm sorry Razor but this is baloney. These people believe in Christianity, and alongside them is their "work":
Anders Behring Breivik - Murdered 77 people in a 2011 killing spree Tony Alamo - Founder of the Alamo Christian Foundation, arrested several times as a child sex offender Dennis Rader - Church council member, BTK Serial Killer Derik Bonestroo - Tried to kill people if they were not Christian
I can keep going but I think you get the picture.
Originally Posted By: Razorthorns
Today we don't think it's unusual for spouses to cheat on each other. They say its no longer if your spouse will cheat but when and how many times. There are even services to help arrange for it. We say they have an open marriage or we call them swingers now.
uhm, we called them swingers in the 1960s too. Marriage infidelity goes back a very long time. This is not something conjured up in the last 30 years.
Originally Posted By: Razorthorns
Ever seen the avg waistline these days? Nuff said.
And i've seen just as many evangelicals with large waistlines too. What is your point?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
By hellfire I mean basically. Some churches approach belief by scaring the crap out of children. So if she comes home terrified of burning in hell etc. then there is a problem. I imagine you can handle that just fine, just something I was wondering about.
Heh...as her need for rational explanation increases you're going to run into a few issues Did you have an explanation beyond uhh? I'm not entirely certain if she'll be thankful for exposure to confusing beliefs you disagree with or not. Obviously not my call to make, just sort of an inevitable conflict you're headed towards being an atheist with a daughter going to church
I've never really understood the 'moral decay' argument (which tends to arise from both religious and non-religious viewpoints).
We have become undeniably more and more moral as our nation ages.
If this were 1962, I could tell an 'n-word' to get to the back of the bus, or smack my wife in the mouth for serving dinner cold.
Despite being a wildly flawed country, our moral trajectory has steadily risen over time, not fallen.
My only counterpoint to your argument would be a nit-pick:
I won't argue that we've become less violent. Because we certainly have. But I don't think the drop is as precipitous as the numbers claim.
The consistent staggering of crime statistics is due in part to an attempt to show progress through a manipulation of the statistics.
Beyond that...if you look at the history of our nation from the beginning...we've consistently gotten smarter, more moral, and less prone to crime. We're still wildly flawed, but the argument that we've fallen into moral decay is the byproduct of an older generation fearing change, as well as things formerly suppressed being more openly discussed (i.e. infidelity/divorce).
I implore anyone to tell me what era in American history is more 'moral' than the current one?
By hellfire I mean basically. Some churches approach belief by scaring the crap out of children. So if she comes home terrified of burning in hell etc. then there is a problem. I imagine you can handle that just fine, just something I was wondering about.
Heh...as her need for rational explanation increases you're going to run into a few issues Did you have an explanation beyond uhh? I'm not entirely certain if she'll be thankful for exposure to confusing beliefs you disagree with or not. Obviously not my call to make, just sort of an inevitable conflict you're headed towards being an atheist with a daughter going to church
They didn't do that thankfully, and my grandmother is a hardcore christian, but i highly doubt she would've allowed any of that to be going on with my daughter.
lol! I'm not atheist, i'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power. that's where it ends as far as that goes.
honestly man, i didn't. I told her to ask grandma or the pastor next sunday.
I mean, i have my own theory...but it's so batcrap crazy i normally keep it to myself.
Last edited by Swish; 04/06/1506:16 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I mean, i have my own theory...but it's so batcrap crazy i normally keep it to myself.
People believe that a snake told a woman made out of a rib to eat an apple.
I wouldn't worry too much about sounding crazy.
aye you know they say that's the reason why we don't have a bone in our penis like the majority of other animals? Thought that was a neat theory.
anyway, So here's what i was thinking right...What if When the big bang happens, and it's probably happened before with as massive as our universe is, that God was created then, right?
then he decided to mold the Earth since it was already forming....then he waited until Humans evolved past primates, because only then would we actually be able to understand who God is?
but like....God isn't the only God. See because maybe there's a God that rules over every planet, or atleast every plane with life and intelligent life.
I know you're gonna be like "put the weed down" but i'm just saying.
Greek Mythology...which honestly back in the day they did believe in all those Gods.
They had the god of war, blah blah blah..but they still had that ONE god that ruled over all of them, ya know?
So what if we have a God here on earth..just like there's a version of God on other planets in different solar systems, but there's like a supreme ruler, and we got more or less the Wal-Mart night shift supervior ruling over us.
aight i'll stop now. I know it's stupid.
Last edited by Swish; 04/06/1506:34 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
The only "stupid" viewpoint when it comes to where we came from and what happens to us when we die is definitively claiming to know.
That's true.
I mean i dunno about you guys, but when i think about Death and stuff....I get scared. like it's actual fear. At one point i tried to get into church and all that and it just didn't help. no explanation was cutting it, because at the end of the day, we have ZERO hard proof about what happens when we die, other than there's gonna be some people at your funeral when you get buried.
I mean....what if it's as simple as you die, basically fall asleep...and you wake up? but of course you're a new life? like Buddhism?
what if you picked the wrong religion?
what if Jesus was the biggest troll on earth and Paganism was the true religion?
What if Aliens did have something to do with humans and ancient civilization.
There's zero proof to deny or make a claim about any of that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
If I had to guess, I'd saying nothing would be pretty high on the list.
As far as how it started...I've got an infinite number of things to figure out rather than ponder a question there isn't the knowledge or evidence for mankind to effectively answer.
I have no idea. I think if there is an afterlife (heh accidentally typed afterlie) that'd be cool assuming it is good. If there is an interventionist diety like in the bible I think he is kind of *a jerk for being so mysterious about something so serious. Heh part of the funny thing about not being religious is that if I were religious I'd have to acknowledge god is kind of a jerk.
I'm currently hoping medical technology advances super rapidly and I never die. If that isn't the case I'm tenuously planning on freezing my head/body. The only evidence we have right now is your body stops functioning and you rot in the ground. I'd like to avoid that if at all possible. Granted death without an afterlife isn't really something to be considered painful, but if freezing my head gives me a chance at zooming around in spaceships and seeing peace on earth, that'd be pretty sweet.
I'm currently hoping medical technology advances super rapidly and I never die.
How would we deal with the massive overpopulation that would turn Montana into a 9 a.m. Manhattan train car?
then we hit the skies like the Jettson's, homey.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
But i think as fast as technology is advancing, we'd see a sky/space type living advancement sometime within the next 500 years. like actual communities.
That's what always got me about religion. religion is confined to just this planet.
It doesn't account for the next step. which is out of our solar system. And with humans, we always have this quest for more, to explore what we don't know.
We don't even have this planet completely discovered yet on LAND, nevermind the oceans.
When we come in contact with other intelligent life forms(it's going to happen ,just a matter of when), that's gonna throw a huge wrench into the religious zealots, especially if we communicate and they start asking "what the hell is a religion?"
i dunno bro...this convo is starting to get crazy. maybe it's my fault. but there's just so many questions that any religious book simply doesn't have the answers too.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Oh, something will happen and you will realize you are dead. You will see a bright and warming light that draws you in. Next you will be face to face with God. He will most likely say something to the effect of...
“Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.“ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding” (Job 38:2-4).
I would say in general (not everyone) most atheists are that way because they don't want to have to answer to a higher power or be told the things they want may be wrong or bad.
I'd say you are 100% right on the 'don't want to have to answer to a higher power'; because atheists don't believe in one. As to the second, I see little evidence to support that atheists want subjective morality (to simplify your second point).
Morality is not exclusive to religion. If it was then how would the ancient chinese acquire their morals? Native Americans? Inuit?
Even if morality was exclusive to religion, it is not all encompassing. When Paul tells slaves to obey their masters in Collosians 3:22, why isn't he saying that slavery is wrong? Similar logic occurs in Exodus 21:20-21, absolving a slave owner of wrongdoing as long as they don't kill the slave.
That statement by Razorthorns is utterly ridiculous. Of course we don't answer to a higher power because we don't believe a higher power exist. BUT to say we have no sense of right and wrong (or good and bad) and that we don't want those things pointed out to us is pure rubbish. The Atheist I know are the most moral, intelligent, loving people you could ask to meet. They don't need some old book, a priest, a pope or the church to tell them that raping kids is bad. They don't need to be told war and killing are bad regardless of the reason. The worry much more about helping people, understanding people and doing good things than any church I've ever known.
Unlike a religious person, and atheist does not have to struggle with scripture to determine right from wrong. If it does harm to another it is probably wrong, period. I've never heard of an atheist stoning anyone, killing over religious differences, spreading hate or fear over religious differences or being intolerant of others.
Christians (or those that pretend to be Christians) like to lump Atheist into the Satan worshiping devils club... We don't believe in that either. So maybe if you took just a few minutes (or hours) to actually understand what an Atheist is and is not, you wouldn't be so quick to judge.
Like Christians, all Atheist are individual human beings with their very own set of variables as pertaining to upbringing, family values, what interests them, what doesn't. Truth be told, we are the silent majority. Their are many atheist in your life right now that are afraid of being bullied if they let their true beliefs be known. Those that are openly Atheist know exactly what that means and feels like. I've dealt with it my entire adult life.
That's why I stand up for what's right and good in most cases. So please take a few hours and educate yourself razorthorns, unless you are afraid of the truth.
I find it laughable that you think of me as uneducated. I also think its laughable the way you try to accuse me of saying atheists are the same as Satanist. Please provide even one line of quote ANYWHERE on this forum where I have said anything like that.
I have lived alongside educated atheist my entire life. They very seldom hide what they believe because they are usually full of arrogance and want to gloat how they think you're being an idiot while they of course are just being an intellectual.
I love when they say a Christian wrote it so its biased and has no meaning. There are a huge amount of Christian scholars and scientists but apparently I should never use anything they have worked with. What utter nonsense. Show me any legit report that contradicts what I have written with the same comparative effort to use. Feel free to prove me wrong that the morality of our country has had a sharp decline since prayer was removed. Good luck too because the numbers don't lie and you won't find any.
heck I don't even need to quote anyone. It's freaking common knowledge that america today is much more violent, perverted, and generally unsafe compared to just 30 years ago much less from the 60's. Don't believe me? Ask a parent to let their 6 year old walk a mile to school and back each day. The first thing they will say is that you're insane because some pervert will surely kidnap them or hurt them. A judge might even rule you as an incompetent parent.
Yet, it was fairly safe when I was growing up and never a problem. I mean the older boys might get into trouble but little kids were left alone. Today? Not a chance.
So what is our motivation to be moral? It's simple. Self interest is what guides us to be moral. We do it for our eternal reward or we do it to be accepted by our society. As society becomes more and more morally bankrupt the things we used to consider atrocities become the new normal. The things that fall first are the thing our animal behavior wants to do. Sex or pleasure, eating, and being lazy/resting.
Today we don't think it's unusual for spouses to cheat on each other. They say its no longer if your spouse will cheat but when and how many times. There are even services to help arrange for it. We say they have an open marriage or we call them swingers now.
Ever seen the avg waistline these days? Nuff said.
How many people you seen don't even work but just live on welfare and don't even care about looking for work. Tons and tons of them I have seen.
Most immoral people will claim to be atheist. That does not mean all atheists are immoral. Still, finding a poor atheist that is a moral person is tough to find. Where as, you can find plenty of poor christians who still lead moral lives. Clearly one is better for the nation than the other. Hands down.
Just when I think you are going to meet me in the middle, you go and say something else that is totally off the wall.
I wholeheartedly agree America has gone to hell in a hand basket. I just don't think prayer in schools had much to do with it. That's the same as saying hip hop culture caused the decline or Family Farms dying caused the decline... You could find several contributing factors and several arguments against those factors depending on your point of view. It just so happens that your point of view is Christian and the spin you put on it is a Christian topic.
I honestly won't deny that prayer in schools was a good thing... If you were a Christian. For a kid like me it was an awkward moment every day when you had to bend your head down close your eyes and fake a prayer to fit in, little did I know how many other kids felt the same.
And I can absolutely say that that awkward prayer never taught anyone any morality or responsibility. It was about a minute a day praying to something I didn't understand or care to understand. AND it didn't kill me, but that doesn't make it right.
Personally I see the decline in America stemming from the total collapse of the family unit. Working moms were much more rare during my childhood. Today's parents almost have to work to stay afloat.
The next big reason is lack of opportunity. It's easy to quit caring when there is no chance that your life will ever be one of any quality. That is only compounded by social media and media in general, as we now spend way to much time comparing our lives to others, worshiping the rich lifestyles as teens and losing the honest work fair pay mentality that made the country great.
After spending the better part of the last 50 years being squeezed for every penny by big business and the 1%, America is all but in ruin. The only path back to greatness starts at the local level. Communities that are safer, jobs that are better, and reinforcing close knit families rather there be gay or straight parents at the helm.
When I graduated high school you had three choices; go to college (if your parents could afford it), go into the military or try to get a decent paying job locally. And there were tons of jobs for kids with no experience. The elderly often have to compete with kids for those jobs today just to make ends meet.
When I graduated you could get a good factory job, get a good paying construction job, get into a skilled labor union or start your own small business and thrive. Even getting a job at a grocery store, restaurant or bank was a good start for a promising career. Those things barely exist today.
So please spare me the "how dare you" theatrics when you try to attribute these things to the lack of belief in God. I don't buy it, never will. Things will not get better until we truly see the issues, and they have little if anything at all to do with not praying in school. <- You see there I gave you little.
As for:
Quote:
Still, finding a poor atheist that is a moral person is tough to find. Where as, you can find plenty of poor christians who still lead moral lives. Clearly one is better for the nation than the other. Hands down.
This is pure rubbish and IS exactly why I consider you uneducated.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
here's what religious laws like Indiana are saying it's ok to do:
thoughts?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
For as "wonderful" as your memory is, it's obviously lacking just a bit.
Your use of quotation marks on the word wonderful implies that I used it to describe my memory.
Which didn't occur. What you're doing is a habit of yours where you put quotation marks around concepts or notions you disdain. This can be confusing to people not familiar with the tic, and lead to others believing you're quoting someone.
And I remember the incident clearly. You were throwing a temper tantrum and said you wanted to fight me. You were soon banned. Some time later, I mocked you for this incident. You went on an ALL CAPS rant about how I was lying, and that you never wanted to fight me, and demanded that I apologize for being a bald faced liar. I produced your direct quote, you threw a temper tantrum and got banned again.
In recent months, you've insisted that the incident was in the distant past, and that I should let it go, at which point I said that the sheer absurdity of such behavior had no statute of limitations.
What part of that recollection do you feel is obvious in its lack?
We normally agree, but I would challenge your "moral" supposition that we are improving as time goes on. By a strict definition of moral being:
Quote:
mor·al ˈmôrəl/Submit adjective
1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. "the moral dimensions of medical intervention"
2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct. "he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person"
I would say in areas such as tolerance and equality we have improved, while in areas of family values, common sense (good judgement) and personal conduct we have taken a nose dive.
We could argue this all day because our differing perceptions are based solely on our personal experiences and observations more than anything else. Any report stating otherwise based on statistics again would be skewed based upon the same criteria.
Seriously how can you quantify a decline in morality? You can count the number of divorces but you can't tell what underlying factors or changes have truly caused a shift in the numbers. So in the end we are each left to our own experiences and observations to base judgement upon, and I see both a rise and a decline depending upon the specific topic.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Ah, disregard my post in the other thread (about how to post a video). I see the advice worked.
As to this vid - why play the race card? I don't know of any religion that claims "race" is a sin. I do know much of Christianity and Islam think homosexuality is a sin - so while I may disagree or agree - race isn't a part of it.
Well it didn't take long for somebody to go there. I called that early on in this thread. Slippery slope.
The only problem with that is that under the civil rights laws that would be a federal offense. Supreme court would have to rule in favor of the black guy and find the religious freedom state law unconstitutional.
The wing nuts don't want that, they want to fight gay rights. Sooner rather than later the LGBT community will be a protected group under the civil rights laws.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 04/06/1508:29 PM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
As to this vid - why play the race card? I don't know of any religion that claims "race" is a sin. I do know much of Christianity and Islam think homosexuality is a sin - so while I may disagree or agree - race isn't a part of it.
It very much is.
Religious belief and religious liberty have, in fact, been invoked when attempting to rationalize segregation or refusal of service in our nation's history.
The point of the video is that "I can't serve ___ people in my place of business, because it's my religion" makes no logical sense as a matter of law, and in our specific society, we abolished the practice in 1964.
“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
— Judge Leon M. Bazile, January 6, 1959
"Purity of race is a gift of God. And God, in his infinite wisdom, has so ordained it that when man destroys his racial purity, it can never be redeemed.”
- Senator Theodore Bilbo, 1946
We have a very detailed history of religious people and politicians attempting to use religion and the right of their religious liberties to promote segregation and relegating others to a status of second-class citizenship.
It's clear as day that the tactics of then are no different than what's being preached today.
You have the right to believe gays or blacks are bad. You are free to express that right. You are not allowed to discriminate in your workplace because of those views.
And there is a very concrete and logical reason as to why such laws needed and still need to be in place.
I would say in general (not everyone) most atheists are that way because they don't want to have to answer to a higher power or be told the things they want may be wrong or bad.
I'd say you are 100% right on the 'don't want to have to answer to a higher power'; because atheists don't believe in one. As to the second, I see little evidence to support that atheists want subjective morality (to simplify your second point).
Morality is not exclusive to religion. If it was then how would the ancient chinese acquire their morals? Native Americans? Inuit?
Even if morality was exclusive to religion, it is not all encompassing. When Paul tells slaves to obey their masters in Collosians 3:22, why isn't he saying that slavery is wrong? Similar logic occurs in Exodus 21:20-21, absolving a slave owner of wrongdoing as long as they don't kill the slave.
That statement by Razorthorns is utterly ridiculous. Of course we don't answer to a higher power because we don't believe a higher power exist. BUT to say we have no sense of right and wrong (or good and bad) and that we don't want those things pointed out to us is pure rubbish. The Atheist I know are the most moral, intelligent, loving people you could ask to meet. They don't need some old book, a priest, a pope or the church to tell them that raping kids is bad. They don't need to be told war and killing are bad regardless of the reason. The worry much more about helping people, understanding people and doing good things than any church I've ever known.
Unlike a religious person, and atheist does not have to struggle with scripture to determine right from wrong. If it does harm to another it is probably wrong, period. I've never heard of an atheist stoning anyone, killing over religious differences, spreading hate or fear over religious differences or being intolerant of others.
Christians (or those that pretend to be Christians) like to lump Atheist into the Satan worshiping devils club... We don't believe in that either. So maybe if you took just a few minutes (or hours) to actually understand what an Atheist is and is not, you wouldn't be so quick to judge.
Like Christians, all Atheist are individual human beings with their very own set of variables as pertaining to upbringing, family values, what interests them, what doesn't. Truth be told, we are the silent majority. Their are many atheist in your life right now that are afraid of being bullied if they let their true beliefs be known. Those that are openly Atheist know exactly what that means and feels like. I've dealt with it my entire adult life.
That's why I stand up for what's right and good in most cases. So please take a few hours and educate yourself razorthorns, unless you are afraid of the truth.
I find it laughable that you think of me as uneducated. I also think its laughable the way you try to accuse me of saying atheists are the same as Satanist. Please provide even one line of quote ANYWHERE on this forum where I have said anything like that.
I have lived alongside educated atheist my entire life. They very seldom hide what they believe because they are usually full of arrogance and want to gloat how they think you're being an idiot while they of course are just being an intellectual.
I love when they say a Christian wrote it so its biased and has no meaning. There are a huge amount of Christian scholars and scientists but apparently I should never use anything they have worked with. What utter nonsense. Show me any legit report that contradicts what I have written with the same comparative effort to use. Feel free to prove me wrong that the morality of our country has had a sharp decline since prayer was removed. Good luck too because the numbers don't lie and you won't find any.
heck I don't even need to quote anyone. It's freaking common knowledge that america today is much more violent, perverted, and generally unsafe compared to just 30 years ago much less from the 60's. Don't believe me? Ask a parent to let their 6 year old walk a mile to school and back each day. The first thing they will say is that you're insane because some pervert will surely kidnap them or hurt them. A judge might even rule you as an incompetent parent.
Yet, it was fairly safe when I was growing up and never a problem. I mean the older boys might get into trouble but little kids were left alone. Today? Not a chance.
So what is our motivation to be moral? It's simple. Self interest is what guides us to be moral. We do it for our eternal reward or we do it to be accepted by our society. As society becomes more and more morally bankrupt the things we used to consider atrocities become the new normal. The things that fall first are the thing our animal behavior wants to do. Sex or pleasure, eating, and being lazy/resting.
Today we don't think it's unusual for spouses to cheat on each other. They say its no longer if your spouse will cheat but when and how many times. There are even services to help arrange for it. We say they have an open marriage or we call them swingers now.
Ever seen the avg waistline these days? Nuff said.
How many people you seen don't even work but just live on welfare and don't even care about looking for work. Tons and tons of them I have seen.
Most immoral people will claim to be atheist. That does not mean all atheists are immoral. Still, finding a poor atheist that is a moral person is tough to find. Where as, you can find plenty of poor christians who still lead moral lives. Clearly one is better for the nation than the other. Hands down.
Just when I think you are going to meet me in the middle, you go and say something else that is totally off the wall.
I wholeheartedly agree America has gone to hell in a hand basket. I just don't think prayer in schools had much to do with it. That's the same as saying hip hop culture caused the decline or Family Farms dying caused the decline... You could find several contributing factors and several arguments against those factors depending on your point of view. It just so happens that your point of view is Christian and the spin you put on it is a Christian topic.
I honestly won't deny that prayer in schools was a good thing... If you were a Christian. For a kid like me it was an awkward moment every day when you had to bend your head down close your eyes and fake a prayer to fit in, little did I know how many other kids felt the same.
And I can absolutely say that that awkward prayer never taught anyone any morality or responsibility. It was about a minute a day praying to something I didn't understand or care to understand. AND it didn't kill me, but that doesn't make it right.
Personally I see the decline in America stemming from the total collapse of the family unit. Working moms were much more rare during my childhood. Today's parents almost have to work to stay afloat.
The next big reason is lack of opportunity. It's easy to quit caring when there is no chance that your life will ever be one of any quality. That is only compounded by social media and media in general, as we now spend way to much time comparing our lives to others, worshiping the rich lifestyles as teens and losing the honest work fair pay mentality that made the country great.
After spending the better part of the last 50 years being squeezed for every penny by big business and the 1%, America is all but in ruin. The only path back to greatness starts at the local level. Communities that are safer, jobs that are better, and reinforcing close knit families rather there be gay or straight parents at the helm.
When I graduated high school you had three choices; go to college (if your parents could afford it), go into the military or try to get a decent paying job locally. And there were tons of jobs for kids with no experience. The elderly often have to compete with kids for those jobs today just to make ends meet.
When I graduated you could get a good factory job, get a good paying construction job, get into a skilled labor union or start your own small business and thrive. Even getting a job at a grocery store, restaurant or bank was a good start for a promising career. Those things barely exist today.
So please spare me the "how dare you" theatrics when you try to attribute these things to the lack of belief in God. I don't buy it, never will. Things will not get better until we truly see the issues, and they have little if anything at all to do with not praying in school. <- You see there I gave you little.
As for:
Quote:
Still, finding a poor atheist that is a moral person is tough to find. Where as, you can find plenty of poor christians who still lead moral lives. Clearly one is better for the nation than the other. Hands down.
This is pure rubbish and IS exactly why I consider you uneducated.
You make some good points that I agree with. If you go back a bit I also attributed other factors not just prayer in school. The change of the work available and the lack of affordable education to ready kids for it I can certainly agree with. I have stated those particular things as causes for our country's decline in several other threads as well.
I think that we are only a little ways off middle ground.
I speak from first hand experience though. I grew up in the gutters of the projects. I've had gunfire near me and drug houses next door. Most of the people there are atheists. Most of them also have a very skewed sense of morals if they have any at all. Thats just the simple truth. They have very little use for being moral as its doesn't make thier life easier.
For the poor, school might be the only time they ever hear about being moral. Even then they see no reason to be. Not all of the time but certainly most of the time God is the ONLY answer as to WHY they should live better and be virtuous. I have seen it first hand WAY too many times where finding God saved their life and changed it to the better. Even if there was no God the fact that belief in one can make such a life saving change is reason enough to include prayer in school.
Sure, some kids might feel uncomfortable like you were. I get that. To me it's worth their discomfort for the others who have their lives radically changed for the better.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
My atheism is mainly rooted in my inability to believe in children's fairy tales.
It's not so much a desire to do what I want as it is the knowledge that virgins can't get pregnant.
I will bet you a billion dollars that a virgin can get pregnant.
Man can artificially inseminate a woman, yet you somehow feel that this is beyond an omnipotent God? Really?
Wow.
Also, maybe you should actually read the Bible before you deride it as a "fairy tale". You obviously, from many arguments you have made using Biblical verses, do not know, understand, or have even read the Bible, beyond doing quick internet searches for verses.
That's an open mind for you though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
and in our specific society, we abolished the practice in 1964.
No, race has nothing to do with religion or religious freedom. See the post directly above yours, from oldcold.
In other words, discriminating based on race is illegal. (and for the record, I feel discriminating based on sexuality is wrong as well.)
You're right Arch. Currently the civil rights laws do not protect the sexual preference groups. BUT they will, mark my word. And to me the funny thing about it is that the groups fighting it under the guise of religious freedom (that's this years term for bigotry) are going to be the exact reason it happens. You see there is very little resistance to gay rights laws from people under 30-35... There are many more (including republicans, the religious and conservatives) who do not back this fight or have chosen to support the gay side. It's over, just a matter of time.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
