DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...the return...

Oh Manziel is "super white". Well, not sure about the super part. lol

JM is so white that when he took off his shirt today they started to draw up plays on his back

yea i do think shanny said to force feed him.

I stopped reading right here I'll read the rest when my stomach settles.

Look the bad play of one player doesn't make it OK to force another player onto the field. here lets look at this logically if thats possible. At this point in the season the Browns are what 7-4 and Hoyer was not playing well, but not playing well to the tune of 7-4, and lets be all honest here we aren't 7-4 without Hoyer.

But JF is your future and he isn't near ready better to push Hoyer off the cliff then JF who you risk damaging. Hoyer may not have been playing well but he was capable and he was equipped to play would be my point JF was not and no amount of twist like Hoyer forced him onto the field is going to change that. It was poorly managed its just to bad you can't stop slugging down that Cognac flavored kool ade. lmao

I will also mention that in the last go round Cincy was owned by Hoyer, and this game was Cincy's and our season and you don't think its queer to start a QB that isn't ready to play? Come on Tab really?

What I take from this is they bungled it JF had NO chance therefore we had no chance and worse yet we placed our hoped for future at risk in the process. A player is either set up to succeed or a player is set up to fail I find it hard to see where JF was set up for anything but failure and thats the wrong way to develop a QB. would be my point.

But Hoyer forced him on the field.............LMAO good one...

You can apply this as well Tab. This isn't about Hoyer its about developing a QB, you seem confused and think one is related to the other.

The problem with the Browns coaching staff changes they were one brought about as a result of the guy they had here last year begging on hands and knees to get out.

This staff from an offensive point of view isn't better then what we had here a year ago in fact its markedly worse. I worry they will be easily manipulated and once Farmer and Haslam work out their hand signals or messenger service they will once again be trying to play call and make personal decisions in game from the owners box, just like they did last year.

Morg this crew set Johnny up to fail its so plain.. They put him on the field when he wasn't ready, and clearly hadn't put in the work, and I don't believe that was a product of Pet, Shanahan, or Farmer for that matter. No one who knows spit about the development of a QB would have sent that kid out there to play, much less send him out there for a 2nd go. It was beyond stupid and exactly the wrong way to develop a QB.

Everyone from an organizational stand point had to know he was no where near ready, if they didn't we are in worse shape then I thought. They let him get away with being a slacker and they had to know he had substance abuse issues, again if they didn't we are in worse shape then I originally thought. They are as we speak leading JF to the edge of the cliff, any hope we had of developing him is quickly fading because it requires time, and effort on JF part which they never demanded from him last year all while talking about accountability, and the stated reason they cut loose of Chud.

JF has an uphill battle in front of him. Most folks say he created it for himself but I say it has far more to do with the FO setting him up to fail then it has to do with his substance abuse. They should have kicked him in the ass way back in camp last year while they were talking about holding everyone accountable would be my point.

Worse though I see no indication they get it now. Here we go Johnny Geronimo.

And Johnny earned it?

Seriously?

Wow, we agree twice in one day.

To the poster saying, "And Johnny earned it?" What else were we going to do, watch Hoyer implode to even more gargantuan proportions?? This is the same guy that thinks Teddy B should go ahead and take his place in the NFL Hall of Fame...

You're right.

Johnny was obviously well-prepared to take over the starting job from Hoyer and his 0-2 record was much better than Hoyer's 7-6 record. Manziel lit up when he was in there and it was obvious his teammates really came together to play their best when he was inserted.

I have a question for you, Super...........how many Brown's QBs since our rebirth have a better record as a starter than Hoyer? How many have a worse record than Johnny?

I haven't totally given up on Johnny, but don't act so superior and degrade someone's opinion when that person has way more ammunition than you do.

I'm split on the subject Vers. I am sorry for degrading your opinion. A lot of the facts are on your side, but geezz something had to be done. As bad as Johnny was, the coaching staff should have known better than to put him in ,BUT Jimmy and The texting GM were pressuring the staff to plug Johnny in.

So, in retrospect, it was a no win scenario.

Super, my only point was that JM did NOTHING to earn the job. That's all I said.

I can't disagree with that Verse. As I said, it was really a no win scenario...

Good words for all to keep in mind...

For what its worth bb, I apologized for that. Go back a page Vers. Most of the time when I post, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek.
No real disrespect is meant.

It's cool, Super.

I get your humor.

Thanks verse. You made a valid point about Manziel. I was just so disgusted with Hoyer's play down the stretch as all here were.

I know your going to hate this but Vers is right JF had to show he was ready thru effort and practice I wasn't there but what I saw when he did play has nothing to do with Hoyer he neither demonstrated he was ready nor did he put the effort forward to be handed the ball.

I still think your stuck on Hoyer and can't seem to refocus on Johnny what was best for him and his development. This was a total Haslam move and no coach that was out for his development would have sent him out to play and you can't seem to focus on that one issue. They set him up to fail and it was epic bad.

Speaking as the Falcons’ new offensive coordinator, Shanahan told reporters (via ESPN) on Monday:

“Johnny’s a great guy and I think he does get a little bit of a bad rep with that because Johnny worked very hard for me. I really enjoyed coaching him. I don’t know what he’s going through right now, but I think I’m confident Johnny will work it all out. And I think he has a chance to have a good future.”

It's what we are ALL hoping for Kyle.

This seemingly shoots down the notion that Manziel didn't put forth the required effort. Where then does the fault lie for his epic failure?

What else would we expect Shanahan to say? He's trying to move on from the situation, anything controversial he says will just bring more unwanted questions on the subject.

Are you saying Shanny LIED?

Hard to believe that a football coach would lie, right?

Wouldn't think he would need to.

Hoyer sucked something awful.

Everyone wants to focus on Manziel's game and a half but the 13 games leading up to that were nauseating as well.

Hoyer was good when our running game was good. Once we had to rely on him to win games he turned into a pumpkin. That Colts game was one of the worst QB performances I have ever seen. It was preceded by two stinkers that were nearly as bad. We then brought in Manziel for the Bengals game and he managed to suck just as much as Hoyer.

What a disaster.

j/c

Is there a common thread between Hoyer's declining on-field performance and Manziel's apparent unpreparedness to play?

Tab I keep trying to say it I'm so damned bad at expressing myself but a pattern develops over time and you can predict the end of the story because you have seen it play out so many times.

Look at Frye, BQ followed by Weedon, and now JF and what was the most common threads with them all? I say we failed to set them up to succeed we didn't give them the time and the support they needed to develop, and when they did play they weren't ready for the opportunity.

Then look at DA and how that was handled.

I by no means am blaming the current regime for past mistakes I'm taking what I saw from our past failures and seeing the same mistakes being made when it comes to developing and handling QB's. That's all that has nothing to do with Hoyer -vs- Johnny it has to do with how you develop and handle your QB's. They are simply displaying the same failed MO we have seen play out over and over again.

This isn't some new revolution for me Tab I said it at the break of camp last year, I said it in season and low and behold it caught up with them and us. I wrote earlier we will have spurts of success (see Da see Hoyer) but we will continue to struggle because we don't get behind the starter from an organizational stand point I realize you don't share that belief and instead choose to blame the failures on the QB, I choose to look deeper and ask what is it we keep doing that causes us to consistently fail to develop QB's.

Then I read what Bernie says and I look at our current regime and I see the same failed tactics again. QB is the toughest position in all of sports to play all the stars need to align for you to get and develop a player at this position and everything needs to be done right and the player has to work their ever living ass off to be successful and for us their has been a consist failure to invest the time to develop these guys and that more often then not that is followed by a rush to judge these guys and soon everything falls apart and we toss another QB on the scrap pile and start again.

I know your a thoughtful guy when it comes to your football step back and look at how its been done in our recent past and then apply your observations to what we now see.

I think Vers hit on probably the most critical aspect the player (QB) has to demonstrate they are prepared and ready to take the field and they HAVE to earn it. When they do that their ready to succeed anything less and you and they fail. We continue to blame the player and fail to recognize managements roll in managing and preparing a player for success and we failed in that regard with Johnny and thats far more important in the long haul then the Cincy game or the fact that Hoyer was playing like crap at that moment.

Oh and once he is your starter its critical that the organization be all in there can be no wavering, he is your guy to the end.

I hope I did a better job of communicating that to you and to others.

BTTB: you've written this sentence more than once in this thread, and there's something about it that just hits me wrong.

It's clearly opinion, but it's written as fact. Just a small thing- and I'm not a grammar nazi- but it automatically prompts this response from me, almost as a knee-jerk response:

You've taken the past regime's 1-yr performance and and are comparing it to the performance of a regime that hasn't even been seen at this year's OTA's/TC. Don't you think it's just a bit early to be evaluating these guys against last years' folks when they haven't even placed players on the field yet?

Maybe it's just your wording, or that I'm not reading you right... but it seems as if you've already passed judgement on folks we barely even know.

Am I missing something obvious here?

just wondering...


**EDIT**

Never mind. I just finished reading you latest post, and now understand the context that frames your sentence. Makes sense to me now.

Now, I have to say this much: it's not a lock that JManz has been irreparably damaged. It was only 7 quarters of play very VERY early in his career. I think those stinker games can be oversome with the right treatment and coaching. Now, if they continue that mistake and put him out there again before he's ready- your prediction most likely will come to pass,

Sometimes, I simply need to read through the thread...

I'm trying to say we need to be patient and deliberate with a QB if it is our plan to have them know success we have failed at it so many times we should have learned something and for me its recognizing how not to do it. But its all good man, but I do wish everyone would take the time to think and not react until they follow the thought process through to an end. You have to take what you know and put it together step by step to reach a conclusion, for me it was asking myself how do we keep failing at this and how do other teams get to where we want to go.

In that process I reached several conclusions.

1- In every instance these kids were rushed in

2- The regime always was hesitant about playing the guy but did so reluctantly. That can't happen!

3- Once you have yourself convinced and the player is confident he is ready then you go all in and throw the organization behind the player 100%.

4- The player must earn the spot, nothing is given.

5- Demonstrates a command of the play book, and the huddle.

But go down that shortened check list and apply its lessons to JF and tell me what in the hell were they doing? Why? What possible good could come from it?

This off season they rid themselves of anything that looked or smelled like competition at the QB position which creates a situation where they throw their hands in the air and proclaim we have no choice and in the process they sell themselves JF and us out, and we just throw another body on the scrap heap rinse and repeat.

There has to be a plan in place that they stick to no matter what. If JF is ready week one and he has done all the things on this list he gets and earns a whiff, and when he does finally play I don't throw him into a game where the odds are heavily stacked against him. The idea is to have early success build confidence in the player and the players around the player. These things need to have one goal in mind and that is to develop the player for success and we seem to always stack the deck for failure and act surprised when we get the results and we always blame the player and not the process that led to his failure.

Is Johnny damaged, not likely and if he is he is weak minded and will fail anyway, but we must build confidence and we must be confident we must plan for success and not knee jerk react and end up putting the player in a negative situation that leads them and us to failure We all no matter who it is do our best when we are comfortable with what we are doing and confident and that takes time and its different for us all. JF and all of the QB's we have drafted over really the last few years needed time and non of them got it and they all failed epically and the franchise played a huge roll in setting that up to happen this time I would like to see them take the time and try to get it right.

What a fantastic piece of journalism.

That is not journalism, that is a #hottake.

Me too.

There have been some posters who've actually said that they wouldn't be miffed if JManz never saw a snap THIS year... if it meant he was ready for the next season. I actually have no prob with that, if the staff thinks it's the right way to go. I really think that's why they grabbed JMc when they did. Of the prospects that were available, he was about as safe a choice as any other.

Look- dude doesn't set me on fire any more than Hoyer did at this point last year, but it's entirely possible that he's the one who's more ready come Sept... just like last year. If that ends up being the case, then I'm STILL in your camp about being 100% behind the QB who is actually on the field.

When Hoyer got yanked last season, I could feel it coming- and I thought that they did it at least one game too soon.

The Atlanta game was an aberration... and it set up a 'perfect storm' of calamity, because the "Hoyer to Gordon connection" became the only game we played on O. I thought that Josh Gordon's return happened at the worst possible time for the way the Browns' season was playing out... and I was proven right.

I wanted another week or two for Hoyer to remember that he had other WR's who had worked well for him all year long. They'd bailed him out of tight spots when Gordon was still out of the building; they could be there for him again. I wasn't oblivious to the fact that Hoyer looked bad- really bad- but wasn't yet ready to throw in the towel. At that point, the season was still salvageable with just one well-placed win. I thought that Hoyer had that much in him... and that the team might rally for at least a showing in ONE playoff game. Affter that: all bets are off. It's the playoffs, after all.

We can all speculate about the forces behind the decisions we saw. Some can say Shanny (for the play calls), some can say Hoyer (for the fixation on Gordon), some can even say Haslam/Farmer (for the insertion of JM)... the bottom line is that the whole thing tanked in the later weeks because we had too many variables in too many important spots: Rookie HC, rookie GM, pieced-together coaching staff, sophomore owner.... the list of "x factors" was endless. It's a wonder (and still a pleasant surprise) that we logged a 7-9 season last year.

I don't know what the future holds for JManz or how we'll handle him. EVERYONE is still too new for me to have a decent handle on what they might do next... and that goes for any position on the team, to be truthful.

I'm sure you've read my many posts about consistency and continuity- I'm a huge fan. I hope we're finally nailing down the staff, so we can work with the players. None is more important than QB- and we have no shot at all if we keep changing staff every year.


_________

Sometimes, we fans allow ourselves to get too far into the weeds with details. From time to time, I like to take a step back, and look at the situation from a distance.

Here's what I'm seeing today (take it for what it's worth):

1. We took a hit when Shanahan left, but OC's come and go all the time. We didn't really expect to have him for more than 2 years or so anyway. The fact that he wanted out so badly tells me it was right to let him go. I don't care what his personal reasons were... if he didn't want to be here and was forced to stay, how effective would he have been? How much damage would he have done just with attitude alone?

2. QB situation is no more settled than it was last year. A shame, but not really unexpected. Nobody really thought that Hoyer was the next Kurt Warner, did they?

3. Most of the Staff and FO are now in Year Two. OL blocking scheme will stay the same. Basic O philosophy will remain (run to set up the pass).

4. Total wash on player movement (lose a few/gain a few).

I'm less 'doom & gloom' than many here, because I see last year as an audition for the new crew. With a 7-9 first outing, they did a helluvalot better than the 4-12 record I'd envisioned for them.


just another .02,
Clemmy

Yet I caught holy hell from some people because I told everybody the truth, that JM was not ready to play and that the Browns wanted to be able to sit his ass on the bench all season.

How do you develop a NFL QB Tab?

Probably the best and worst thing that happened to Manziel was the Buffalo game. Maybe the coaches thought Manziel was the ultimate "gamer". He did not look like a guy that was unprepared in that game, prevent D or not. I think when you add that with the fact that Hoyer was horrible, maybe they came to the conclusion that maybe Johnny wasn't a practice player. Maybe he needed game action to light that spark. Some guys are better in games than in practice. It provides that extra edge they need to focus.

So I think that turned out being the worst thing that happened to Manziel.

The best? I suspect he wouldn't have gone to rehab had he not flopped so epically after the Buffalo game. So we are starting the year with a hopefully new and improved Manziel. A Manziel we wouldn't have had he not seen game action.

Just trying to find some silver lining in all of this. I still think Mariotta is a Brown and Manziel is elsewhere come next Thursday, but if not, hopefully this rehab stint will pay some dividends not just for Manziel the person but also for Manziel the player.