DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Chaos in Baltimore

Has someone ever hit something so hard that they severed their spine and crushed their larynx? If so, which one did you do first?

Running people over is illegal. Jaywalking is illegal to keep people from being accidentally run over.

Breaking the law raises your chances of getting dead, one way or another. No one said anything about the 'wild west' but you. Are you so willing to discount the police report and the coroners report when they come out because you've already formed your opinion? All we have right now is speculation on a leaked report, and all we had before was speculation on a theory.

Has someone released the official coroners report, or is it rumor you're stating about the severed spine and crushed larynx? I have not seen that yet.

Now this is complete speculation: If Gray was facing toward the front of the van, and was prepared to bash the top of his head into the van wall between the driver compartment and the passenger compartment, and the van stopped at that moment, I can see a situation where he could lose his balance, causing his head and neck to overextend in a downward position while his body weight and momentum could supply the effective force to break his neck, and his jaw could move down and chest could move forward crushing his larynx. I have no more scientific fact to back this up than you do to prove police brutality at this time.

The earlier idea of a 'rough ride' is also plausible for these injuries, but the police have leaked that GPS data will show that rough ride didn't happen, and there is a witness in the truck too.

It's also illegal to kill someone.

No, people are arguing that if you don't want to die then don't break the law. That's a vigilante type of thinking. Hence the wild west comment. I'm willing to discount the police report because throwing yourself against a wall will most likely not break your spine or crush your larynx. And, if it did, why did it take 10 days for this to come out?

Who has more to gain out of a lie here. A dead man or people who might be charged with manslaughter?

There are also witnesses who say they saw Police beat him...

You should be saying, 'who has more to gain if they are lying?' I'm saying, there is not enough information to make any determination yet. I thought the 'rough ride' theory was very plausible. I think the 'he injured himself' theory is plausible too. I'm waiting to see what the coroner has to say, and more to the point, what my wife has to say about the coroner report, as she has all the medical experience.

The police van has what looks like a metal bench welded into the van at the wheel wells. If he fell against that, it could explain the broken neck. A persons' larynx can be broken or crushed by a punch, and they can be crushed by the weight of the head and chest pushing against it.

Let's also not assume the larynx was crushed in the van. I have seen no video of the initial arrest, but the crushed larynx could have also happened at that time.

Then they should come forward and testify.

Evidently you think this IS a fictionalized version of the Wild West because with nothing but speculation and opinion you have already formed guilt, prosecuted, and convicted police officers.

If you are posting here, you have eyes. Who cares what the media reports? In this case, we can see with our own eyes. Chances are all races, religions etc. were represented in this chaos, sadly enough.

Yes it does.


Black kid gets killed by cops, blame knuckle-dragging racist cops, black kid didn't have a gun, therefore none of it is his fault.. throw in qualifying statement something like, "Sure, he was no angel but.... "

See, the mob always has the upper hand in these cases because they can form opinions, speculate, theorize, and get all worked up. The authorities are pretty much prohibited from presenting their side of the story until an investigation has been completed.

So you are right, this is following the same theme.... it's exactly what has happened in most of these cases...

The bigger problem, as I see it, is that a lot of people don't trust the system to get the outcome right. Perhaps they have good reason..

What is bothering me about this whole thing is that we need to remove the cameras. How many times have we seen out of control individuals seeking their 6 seconds of broadcast fame? This type of behavior flies in the face of community leaders attempting to gain calm control.

It should be sufficient to get reports the following day. There are way too many good people there trying to maintain peace.

Don't trust the system...fine. However, for now, it is what it is and the only one we have. This is absolutely not the way to change it. There are intelligent leaders present in the Baltimore community. Many have been in office for years. Why haven't they effected change? They must see their people suffering. They must be aware of the poverty. They must understand the root of the problem. This is a failure in community and government leadership.

I am left wondering if Mr. Cummings and other community leaders made any effort to pre empt this destructive activity. If not, this is a failure within their own leadership. Rock the vote, get them out. Walking the streets in the middle of chaos is helpful but having strategies in place to prevent would be more beneficial.

Things must not remain status quo for improvements to be made so this wil not occur again.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/30...on-Freddie-Gray

Dailykos is trash, but it does point out the inaccuracies of the Police's story.

thanks for trying, Steve.

I did everything I could... nothing worked.

I hope folks click the link. I thought it was a pretty powerful image.

According to my wife, a nurse, if he had a crushed larynx, he would not have been able to ask for medical help. Supposedly at the 2nd or 3rd stop of the van is when he requested medical help. If his larynx was crushed, it would have happened after that stop.

Here you go…

Great pic!

(though maybe he just picked them up at the CVS and he's selling them)

OK... I'm being bad. Great Pic.

Baltimore mayor brings in Sharpton for a summit on police relations.....really???????

Until someone of real substance steps up to take his place, he's still pretty much the go-to guy for stuff like this. Kinda like the Browns' QB situation since '99.

For the record, I can't remember the last time he made anything better by his presence, but folks keep inviting him after these events.

I have to work hard at trying to NOT imagine how much more Dr. King might have accomplished, had he stayed the hell away from Memphis on that fateful day... it makes me too sad. We'll most probably never see his like again.

Our loss.

B

Most definitely the country's loss in many ways.

Why would the person need real substance to replace somebody who has almost no substance? Calling Sharpton is a cop out.. but my guess is they didn't call Sharpton, Sharpton called them and volunteered just to stay involved and in the spot light...

Hell, call Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Morgan Freeman, Magic Johnson, Ray Lewis, Oprah Winfrey or any of the other 1000 black people that will bring some serious name recognition...

It's called an "upgrade." I'd love to see someone fill the huge gaping void left by Dr. King's death, instead of an endless parade of professional attention whores who are in over their depth.

'Name recognition' is what we already have... and it's amounted to less than nothing. If this conversation is to lead anywhere positive, the new person will need to possess intellectual command, social acuity, strength of backbone, and oratorical prowess. King left big shoes to fill, and his equal has not been seen on the national stage in a half-century. Instead, the vacuum created by his death has been filled with hucksters, hangers-on and 2nd stringers ever since.

None of the people you've mentioned can even come close to what's needed. Perhaps a mash-up of several of them... but there is nobody you've mentioned who has the qualities necessary to galvanize a new movement.

King was much much more than just a spokesman for the AfAm community- which is why his legacy casts such a long shadow across our historical landscape. Though his start was as an advocate for Black equality and voting rights, his motivation evolved over the years to the search for SOCIAL JUSTICE for all in America. It's one of the reasons I found so much irony in the hatred that poor Whites felt towards him... much of what he was beginning to advocate (just before he was slain) would have helped them, too.

As Rocket Optimist mentioned in an earlier thread, I too believe his next mission was to tackle income and class inequality on a universal (read: nationwide) scale. His later rhetoric suggested that was the direction he was heading. Imagine the social implications of THAT initiative.

This was one forward-thinking intellectual "heavy hitter," DC- exactly what I feel is needed today... for ALL of us.

I implicitly trust Morgan Freeman to convincingly portray 'God' in an on-screen fantasy. I'm not trusting him with THIS responsibility.

.02

I really do like the decentralization of the protests. I don't think it speaks towards the lack of leaders, but to the amount of leaders.

I think part of the problem is nobody deserves to die without their day in court.

Another part of the problem is there have been extremely significant crimes committed on Wall Street and in industry that no one has been held responsible for.

I know that sounds like, "yada yada yada I hate the rich!", but when you live your life with the justified perspective of injustice then you're more likely to think, "if justice doesn't matter then I'm going to steal my share!".

You're right, whatever Gray was doing he chose to do so, but some people (a lot) are wondering when the police in riot gear are going to some other neighborhoods.

They also justify their violence in other ways. One person from Bmore was asked how they could destroy their own neighborhood and she replied that there had been peaceful protests for days, but the majority of the media didn't come until the violence started.

So he'd possibly be alive now if he chose living differently, but the MAIN problem, the real problem spurring these reactions would still be there.

But we also need to remember that MLK was assassinated.

Most people didn't think of him as a wonderful moral orator at the time. He was a pain in the ass "N" word, a word used freely back then.

A majority of people either hated him or dreaded seeing or hearing him and they didn't think he was anything but an attention seeking trouble maker.

There was a strong desire to avoid confronting the issues he spoke against and that same desire is present today.

His neice, Alveda King could easily take over the mantle, but she's a conservative and not allowed in the race baiter club.

I never said he deserved to die. If one is going to live a life of crime, there is a chance they will be killed.

I disagree with your quote above. James Holmes deserved to die before his day in court. I wonder how void of ethics lawyers must be to actually defend that guy.

Perhaps we are talking about 2 different things. I'm not talking about a guy to lead the next civil rights movement, I'm talking about a guy to advise the Mayor of Baltimore and make a few appearances and speeches to alleviate the pressure...

Which is what makes Sharpton such an ill-advised choice, most black people don't trust him and white people absolutely can't stand him. To be successful, whether it is in the short term of helping Baltimore get over the hump or the long term of actually galvanizing a movement, the person that leads it is going to have to garner the support of a large percentage of white people and Sharpton does just the opposite. He's a punchline... viewed as a race baiter, an opportunist, an antagonizer. Not only will his presence not help in Baltimore, it will hurt.


Again, to help Baltimore get over the hump, Morgan Freeman would be fine. Heck every time he talks I stop what I'm doing just so I can listen... But you are right as far as leading a movement, whoever that person is has to be committed to it full time, and probably needs to be a little younger, somebody the masses of young folk can relate to... and it would be a big help if they had personal experience of coming from an inner city environment.

In King's day, the person almost had to be a southerner, because that's where the stress was. Now, the tension is primarily inner city, so the person to lead has to have a background that can speak to that with personal experience.

Actually, I'd say they have great ethics. Their job is to defend anyone, no matter how detestable that person is, to the best of their ability. Granted, there are scumbag lawyers that will defend anyone for the right price.

Exactly. The purpose of the defense attorney is to force the prosecution to make their case, regardless of what we think, they still have to prove it within the law. Without defense attorneys willing to defend "scum bags" our whole system of justice falls apart.

Yep. Defense lawyers defend our legal system and process, (and really, our way of life) as much as they defend any particular client.

If we get to the point where people cannot find representation because their lawyer prejudges their cases, then we're in trouble as a nation, and a people.

Freddie Gray's death ruled a homicide; officers charged
By Michael Walsh
2 hours ago

Baltimore's State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby announced Friday morning that several officers involved in the death of Freddie Gray will face homicide charges.

“To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America, I heard your call for ‘no justice, no peace.’ Your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man,” she said.

Six Baltimore police officers have been criminally charged.

Officer Caesar Goodson, Officer William Porter, Lt. Brian Rice, Officer Edward Nero, Officer Garrett Miller and Sgt. Alicia White all face several charges, including second-degree murder, manslaughter, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

“I hope that as we move forward with this case, everyone will respect due process and refrain from doing anything that will jeopardize out ability to seek justice,” she said.

Mosby emphasized that the allegations against the officers involved in Gray’s arrest are not an indictment against the entire police department.

She shared that both of her parents, several of her aunts and uncles and her late grandfather were all police officers.

Though what Mosby revealed is now a matter of public record, much of the evidence will be withheld to ensure a “fair and impartial process for all parties involved.”

As the public waits for more information, details from the investigation have slowly begun trickling out.

According to multiple reports, the medical examiner found that the 25-year-old man’s head struck a bolt that jutted out in the back of the police van.

A law enforcement official told the Washington Post that this was not Gray’s only injury, and that his wounds were consistent with those generally seen in car crashes.

Multiple police sources told WJLA that the head wound corresponds with a bolt in the back of the vehicle, and that the impact broke Gray’s neck.

It was not immediately clear what caused the blow while he was in custody, according to the sources.

The investigation did not uncover evidence connecting the videotaped portion of his arrest — which helped to spur protest and riots in the streets of Baltimore — with the young man’s death, according to the local ABC affiliate.

Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said at a news conference Thursday that the results were turned over to State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby one day before a deadline he established.

“I set a date to get this done,” he said. “I was communicating clearly; I wanted a sense of urgency on this case to get the results out there. We dedicated 30 detectives, their full-time job was focused on this case and only this case.”

Based on these findings, the state’s attorney’s office is to determine whether any of the officers will be indicted for crimes in Gray’s death.

Mosby, in turn, issued a statement entreating the public to “remain patient and peaceful and to trust the process of the justice system.”

But many protesters are upset that police still have not shared their findings with the public nearly two weeks after Gray’s death — especially amid claims by his family’s lawyer, Billy Murphy, that his spine had been “80 percent severed.”

The officers picked up a prisoner on April 12 during the roughly 40-minute drive to the police station; Gray was unresponsive upon arrival.

The Washington Post reported that the prisoner, who could not see Gray because they were separated by a metal partition, thought that the young man “was intentionally trying to injure himself” by “banging against the walls."

The D.C. paper found this account in an application for a search warrant that had been sealed by the court. Authorities were reportedly seeking the uniform one of the arresting officers wore the day of Gray’s arrest.

But Donta Allen, who identified himself as the man in the van with Gray, told WJZ-TV that the report is inaccurate and that he just heard “a little banging.”

“And they trying to make it seem like I told them that, I made it like Freddie Gray did that to hisself (sic),” Allen said to the station. “Why the f--- would he do that to hisself (sic)?”

Police revealed that the van made a stop on the way to the station that was not appropriately logged. Gray died in a hospital one week later.

A report from the Carroll County, Md., Sheriff’s Office, obtained by The Associated Press, indicates that one of the officers suspended following Gray’s death has had his mental stability called into question.

Lt. Brian Rice, the officer who initially pursued Gray, had been hospitalized in April 2012 over mental health concerns; at the time, he reportedly said he “could not continue to go on like this” and threatened to commit an act that was censored from the public version of the report.

Batts emphasized that the task force heeded his call and has exhausted every lead at this point in time, but that does not mean their investigation is over.

“The family and the community and the public deserve transparency and truth,” he said.

Web Link

Curious what people think, did the riots and public outcry lead to this or would they have gotten to this point without it?

I always have a problem with this sort of statement. Justice is not for the victim, but also for the person(s) charged in the crime. Justice is supposed to be blind, not applied to a single person.

I personally believe the cops have been charged to stop the street protests. I will guess that the case will fall apart due to lack of evidence.

It's funny hearing people who have never worked in Law Enforcement trying to speak "legalease". The Baltimore PD unlawfully arrested this young man. Its one thing if he was running from a crime scene, but that is not the case. You can not arrest someone because they ran after making eye contact with you. Once you have a suspect in custody you are responsible for their safety. End of story.

I agree with your first statement. Any time I hear somebody say that, it makes me think they have already made up their mind on guilt. Now this is the State's attorney so she obviously feels they are guilty or she wouldn't have charged them yet... but when the mob starts screaming "We want justice" what they mean is "We want revenge"

As for your second statement. I'm thinking that with 6 officers involved, there is a reasonable chance that one of them snaps and tells what happened in exchange for a reduced sentence. Maybe I just want too many cop dramas...

I doubt that. They threw so many charges at them, it seems the state attorney is trying to see which one sticks. If one of these cops had pulled a bag of heroin off Gray, would they charge him with possession too?

Yes, she could easily take over the mantle of someone who just began speaking on raising minimum wage, by a lot, and be able to accurately express his viewpoints.

I thought I was discussing civil rights and peaceful protesting, not the minimum wage. Please let me know what the minimum wage has to do with civil rights.

jc

I'm just gonna place this here. Fun begins at 1.56 min mark: