DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued again!...

Um... what?

Why do you people still care about D'Qwell Jackson? Amazing...

Former Cleveland Browns LB D'Qwell Jackson:"I definitely would've stayed if they would've payed the $4 million bonus,''

If anyone is expecting any one guy to make a big difference they're asking a bit much. Why? Well because there are circumstances and situations that make each year different from each other.

I think our run defense was better with Dansby vs DQ by connecting the dots that showed when Dansby was out the run D wasn't as good. Also, we had DL dropping like flies toward the end of the season whereas I don't remember injuries being as bad the year before.

I just don't think one can compare two players head-to-head when players around them changed, scheme changed and injuries played such a part as they did last year.

Unless one want to resort to stats, (in which case I don't know what the stats show), but I don't care, as per above, about stats.

I'm not arguing for or against either guy. I'm just pointing out that one cannot base the quality of the run D on any one player at any one position.

To do so and cling to that as some sort of definitive proof of anything is overlooking a lot.

Josh McCown brought in to play for Browns, not to mentor

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...y-not-to-mentor

I have to agree with the article. I believe it would take a fool to believe someone who just got out of rehab with a very poor rookie showing can be "counted on as your starter".

Although even McCown has stated he's willing to work with JFF. But McCown was certainly signed with the thought process of him being the starter and having a wait and see approach to JFF.

I agree and that was really my point. You have Y running around here telling anyone who will listen that Dansby is better, but the truth is to play middle linebacker your so dependent on the guys along the line to eat up O linemen so the MLB xan stay clean and go to the ball. His biggest criticism is DQ couldn't get off blocks but that being said most MLB have difficulty handling O linemen thats why its so damned critical to ty up O linemen with your D Linemen so your LB can stay clean and get to the ball.

My point is nothing changed for this team with the addition of Dansby and the subtraction of DQ so to say this guy is better pfffffttt prove it.

'Browns’ offense appears to be moving on from Manziel'

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...partner=ya5nbcs

Posted by Michael David Smith on May 29, 2015, 6:54 PM EDT

Josh McCown is firmly entrenched as the starting quarterback in Cleveland, to the extent that Johnny Manziel, a first-round pick of the Browns last year, appears to be largely an afterthought at Organized Team Activities.

After reporting on the first week of OTAs, Tony Grossi of ESPN Cleveland describes Manziel as “a fish out of water” in the offense the Browns are installing. Grossi writes that the Browns don’t seem to be developing Manziel so much as they’re moving on from him.

At the practice the media were allowed to watch, Manziel seemed to eager to run and not confident enough in his passing. And Grossi reports that one source who witnessed another practice says Manziel was actually even worse in a session that the media didn’t see.

The bottom line is that 13 months after he was drafted, Manziel still hasn’t done anything to make the Browns think he’s ever going to be their franchise quarterback. McCown is the starter for now, and someone else will probably need to be found to be the long-term answer in the future.



(end)

With that in mind....

'Grumpy Grossi continues to be tone deaf as OTA season begins'

By Josh Finney  @JoshFin on May 29, 2015, 11:05am

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/5/29/8...a-season-begins

The Browns wrapped up their second day of OTAs on Thursday. In keeping with tradition (and the ever-present need for clicks) the Browns beat writers began doing what they do best, which generally includes making huge leaps in judgement based on a small sample size of data and manipulating the words of the front office when describing the Browns players.

Read the full recap here.

The first week of Browns OTAs was a revelation of where the team is going offensively and who is going to lead them.


The first two days of OTA's are never a "revelation" of what the season holds for a football team. It features guys in shorts and helmets beginning to learn how the coaches structure plays, and a general walk through of what the scheme and game plan will look like. It's a bevvy of new play calls, new formations, and new receivers that the quarterbacks have not developed chemistry with.

He must be willing to play within the structure of a conservative game plan. He must be content to "live for another down" and not try something daring to make a play by himself.

This is why the Browns signed Josh McCown, a 13-year NFL veteran who has played for six teams, and why McCown has been virtually anointed the starting quarterback without even the hint of a "competition" in training camp.

I like that this statement has the air of poetry. The Faceless Man (GoT reference!) clearly makes an appearance for this segment at ESPN Cleveland. "A man knows how to check down and not throw into traffic."

Unfortunately, the statement resonates little with the facts. The Browns signed Josh McCown for a multitude of reasons, including but not limited to his leadership intangibles, his familiarity with Coach John DeFilippo, and because quite literally he was the most capable quarterback available. Mark Sanchez and Jake Locker looked like intriguing options at the time, but quickly moved off the board before the Browns would have had a realistic shot at obtaining their services.

No one has "anointed" Josh McCown anything. (Except for maybe the runner up in a Dolf Lungren lookalike contest) He has begun team activities as the starter, which is as much a product of his experience as it is a lack of experience for Johnny Manziel and an uncertainty about his availability. The coaches have stressed (repeatedly, and with passion) that they are taking things a day at a time with Manziel, and would never make determinations about the depth chart in September based on two practices in May.

There's competition at every position on the roster, and anyone who realistically thinks that Manziel doesn't have a chance to win the starting job in September, if he performs well, is being wildly unrealistic. This attitude is fear mongering at it's best.

(That said, the prospect of him being prepared and capable enough to WIN the job later are far different, given how raw Manziel is and how much time he lost in his rookie year developing)

Manziel didn’t become Johnny Football by handing off or flipping the ball 5 yards to a back in the flat.

Interestingly, that's exactly how Tom Brady became "TFB," but sure, there's only one route to NFL success, and it clearly involves throwing the ball 35 times a game.

The Browns are going to mitigate the effect of the quarterback play as much as they are able to, regardless of who is under center. They've said this for two years, and there's little reason to believe that this offensive game plan has anything to do with the differences between the quarterbacks.

The Browns aren’t trying to reinvent Manziel. They are, by all appearances, moving on.

Second day of practice, and my eyes are already crossing when I read a synopsis with this brand of absolute statements. It's going to be a long off-season.

The only day media were allowed in to view one of the three OTA practices, Manziel looked unchanged from his rookie year. He was not assertive with knowing where to go with the ball and ran too much for an OTA practice.

Manziel started for only two years in college, and (admittedly) did not grow in his rookie season like the Browns would have expected. He's still very raw and is adjusting to becoming an NFL quarterback. He's only had 2 months (and change) to absorb a new playbook, and he'll continue to be very raw in the process. It's difficult in this age of instant gratification to avoid sweeping conclusions from these practices, but understand that Ray Farmer and Mike Pettine have a much longer view about what it will take to get Manziel to a point where they are prepared to start him in games that matter.

It’s probably understandable, considering what he’s been through in the offseason, a battle with something that defeated him.

This is the pièce de résistance of the entire piece. Not only does this comment clash wildly with the comments from the team about how hard Manziel has worked, but it's also an insult to those who have battled personal demons. The public doesn't know the details about what Manziel has struggled with and eventually committed himself to rehab over. Claiming that the issue "defeated" him is an insult to all those who have sought help for addiction or mental illness. Manziel may never succeed as an NFL quarterback, but do not assume that his struggles to develop are because he was "defeated" by personal battles. The reality is that a successful stint in rehab is a success, even if it doesn't translate into capability in a chosen career.

Browns fans face a summer of conjecture and bold, sweeping declarations. It's difficult to maintain perspective, but I challenge the public to wait before jumping to conclusions; the offense was considered dead on arrival last August, and proceeded to carry the Browns to a 7-4 start behind marginal QB play. The team has improved and gotten dramatically healthier on that side of the football, and the hyperbole can wait for actual games.



(end)

This is about the 5th report from espn that the browns are moving on from Manziel since the season ended. I am very impressed that Tony can learn so much from one practice. file this one along with Manziel will miss OTA's. Manziel will be going to IR. Manziel will enter OTA's as the #4 qb. I swear I think half this board has better info than ESPN when it comes to the Browns.

Josh McCown on no QB duel with Johnny Manziel: 'It takes away from any kind of distraction'

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns quarterback Josh McCown is grateful not to be part of the three-ring Johnny Manziel circus that dominated training camp last year.

Coach Mike Pettine saw to that when he declared McCown, 35, the favorite to start the season and swore off a quarterback duel in camp.

"More than anything, for me, I just believe it takes away from any kind of distraction that you can have and the team can just move in one direction, regardless of who that guy is,'' McCown said Tuesday after the first day of organized team activities. "It's helpful to just say, 'this is our guy until something happens and he's not our guy.'

"But I agree with that philosophy and that approach. It doesn't take anything away from our group and it doesn't take away from what Johnny and Thad (Lewis) and Connor (Shaw) are doing. We're all working together."

McCown, the 13-year pro who was brought in as a bridge quarterback until the Browns find their man of the future, has already stabilized the position.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._social_feature

I'm so excited for the season, but more importantly I'm excited for the future of the Cleveland Browns. Maybe McCown will be able to play into his 50s then pass the torch off to Manziel.

It's a shame. Every article that comes out like this just means Johnny just isn't very good. That sucks. Was hoping for more.

what these articles are saying is that he doesnt fit the offense that pettine wants to run. everyone knows he lost a year right off the bat.

then when he could have done what Blake Bortles did "Jaguars quarterback Blake Bortles set out to refine his game this offseason by working with quarterback guru Tom House and others in California." but he was stuck in rehab instead.

lets face it. opportunities in the nfl are short lived and with the rookie salary cap they shorter than ever. moving on from a first round pick is less painfull.

me? i want anyone not named mccown starting this year. first i watch his games the last 2 years and to put it blunt he sucks.

second even at bad odds i want a QB that at least has a chance of being a good QB for the future. a 36 year old QB is not that.

what these articles are saying is that he doesnt fit the offense that pettine wants to run. everyone knows he lost a year right off the bat.


Then why did we draft him? Did we change what kind of QB we wanted in a yr.? Seems kinda short-sighted to me.

Really good post eo.

What im hearing from my respected fellow dawgtalkers is the beginning of excuses and a sudden change of expectations.

The Browns are not supposed to be a step down facility for rehab graduates...they are supposed to be a nfl football franchise.

Wherever manziels play lands him on this roster/depth chart, so be it...it's up to johnnie...I don't want to see management asking for special treatment for manziels!

If Connor shaw or Thad Lewis outperform Jf...so be it.

Well, thus far JF has secured himself as the #2 and is taking the bulk reps with the #2's and Pettine said it had something to do with rookie mini camp or something that JF was doing.

So, if we're moving on from JF like "the grumpy Grossi" indicates, which I can't really buy into much of Tony's recent articles - but I'd view we'd be giving the #2 reps to at least Thad who has some game experience.

To the flipside though, it wouldn't be of major shock if we were moving on from the kid. He's been nothing been a shameful disappointment since the get-go.

The one thing I would keep in mind is that this is the first week of OTA's. While I highly doubt there is much if any of a chance that JFF takes the #1 QB spot, I could see him slide down the depth chart over time. Time will tell.

I believe the talking heads of the sportswriters are reading way too much into the early going. But what else are they going to write about?

3rd thanks for the piece.

Grossi has always been Gross

Pinning your hopes on McCown is like betting on the ugliest chick in class to win the Miss USA pageant.

I think the Browns have moved on from Johnny, and unlike when they were dealing with Hoyer the franchise has thrown itself behind and into preparing McCown to play. They learned from their mistake in the Hoyer mishandling. Good for them.

Moving on from Johnny and giving up on Johnny are 2 very different things. When drafted he was to be the man everything was geared towards his being the eventual starter, the Browns have moved on from that thought process. From here on Johnny gets to start only if someone gives away the job. If I were the coach/GM Johnny would be battling it out for the number 3 QB spot, in my mind Shaw has earned the backup position.

At this point I don't see Johnny as even being a viable backup, his game is so much different from all the other QB's having to go to him will seriously hamstring the offense. It likely won't matter because McCown is the uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly chick anyway.

I think a great many fans are once AGAIN buying the used car line on McCown, in fact their already lining up the excuses for later use.

But back to Grossi and the fans. Grossi has single handedly done more damage to the Cleveland Browns then any one individual who doesn't work for the organization should ever be allowed to do. I think Grossi sucks and always have.

But the fans will hate him one minute then champion him the next it all depends on which side your on. For me I can't stand him when I agree with him and I really can't stand him when we disagree. In fact at this point when I do agree with him I find myself re-evaluating my position.

The piece he wrote is premature but we all do it to, and whether you agree with him or not like us he gets his opinion but thats the way its always been with Grossi, more opinion then fact. Or opinion not born out by fact. Either way or anyway i can't stand him.

From some of these articles, you wonder if Johnny is even going to make the first cut.

Funny thing BTTB every analyst last year said Manziel need a year or two. Now after one year everyone is ready to throw him to curb. Johnny is doing exactly what he is suppose to be doing...developing. Johnny is on a rookie contract, so he isn't costing much. Maybe...just maybe...Johnny might look a little promising during preseason!

It still baffles me the over emphasis developing a QB than any other position. True, Browns are more in dire need of a QB. But, QBs coming into the NFL are not good. Guys like Luck don't come into the league every year more like every 15. For every Flaco, Eli, and Big Ben, you get dozens like RG iii, Sanchez, and Gabbert. Farmer needs to stay the course drafting QBs just like any other position. All we can do is hope one comes sooner than later. Remember how both Pittsburgh and Baltimore waited until they got their guy. Both teams played competitive too.

It is like until we get a franchise QB Browns are stuck with a sub par record. How much does Johnny Football need to improve to catch Andy Dalton? Will someone go tell Cincinnati they are doing it wrong.

I agree with your point but not the way you used these examples. Flacco, Eli, and Roth further support your point. They are not exceptions. Flacco, Eli, and Roth were all average at best. At best. But they were drafted into stable organizations that had the patience to develop them. Hell, Eli couldn't even get on field.

It's time for the Browns to man up and do the right thing for once. Stick it out with the coaches and players for a long time. Do not succumb to fan pressure. Do not succumb to idiots like Grossi. Stick it out for a change. If that means Manziel isn't ready until next year then so be it.

There is going to be so much pressure from the fans and the media for Haslam to start all over again next year. Please no.

Flacco only started because Troy Smith was sick..

Ben only started game two because Tommy Maddox got hurt.

Eli was put in after Kurt Warner was 5-3.. They finished 6-10..

You are preaching to the choir!!

Manziel will NEVER be Luck, Peyton, Brady, or Rogers. Johnny can walk the same path of Eli or Flaco. Both these guys won super bowls. Only thing stopping Johnny is Johnny himself. Can Johnny do as Eli did after his first year and wake up?

Grossi is doing his job attracting readers. I'm puzzled how fans flock to him and Mary Kay for the inside scoop neither have ever once broke a story! To think, Tony is part of the club selecting HOF candidates.

By the way, I disagree Eli, Big Ben, and Flaco are not average. Dalton is average. It takes talent to be successful in the NFL. Some can have more talent than others. Teams can be successful not having elite QB talent but above average talent.

That is usually how it works is it not? "Next man up" concept works. I think it is why a few here preach "stop giving jobs to the rooks" earn/take it.

I was just pointing out that none of these current SB winning QBs were scheduled to start their rookie season.. If at all..

Grumpy Grossi continues to be tone deaf as OTA season begins

By Josh Finney
@JoshFin on May 29, 2015, 11:05a *


The Browns wrapped up their second day of OTAs on Thursday. In keeping with tradition (and the ever-present need for clicks) the Browns beat writers began doing what they do best, which generally includes making huge leaps in judgement based on a small sample size of data and manipulating the words of the front office when describing the Browns players.



Read the full recap here.

The first week of Browns OTAs was a revelation of where the team is going offensively and who is going to lead them.


The first two days of OTA's are never a "revelation" of what the season holds for a football team. It features guys in shorts and helmets beginning to learn how the coaches structure plays, and a general walk through of what the scheme and game plan will look like. It's a bevvy of new play calls, new formations, and new receivers that the quarterbacks have not developed chemistry with.

He must be willing to play within the structure of a conservative game plan. He must be content to "live for another down" and not try something daring to make a play by himself.

This is why the Browns signed Josh McCown, a 13-year NFL veteran who has played for six teams, and why McCown has been virtually anointed the starting quarterback without even the hint of a "competition" in training camp.

I like that this statement has the air of poetry. The Faceless Man (GoT reference!) clearly makes an appearance for this segment at ESPN Cleveland. "A man knows how to check down and not throw into traffic."

Unfortunately, the statement resonates little with the facts. The Browns signed Josh McCown for a multitude of reasons, including but not limited to his leadership intangibles, his familiarity with Coach John DeFilippo, and because quite literally he was the most capable quarterback available. Mark Sanchez and Jake Locker looked like intriguing options at the time, but quickly moved off the board before the Browns would have had a realistic shot at obtaining their services.

No one has "anointed" Josh McCown anything. (Except for maybe the runner up in a Dolf Lungren lookalike contest) He has begun team activities as the starter, which is as much a product of his experience as it is a lack of experience for Johnny Manziel and an uncertainty about his availability. The coaches have stressed (repeatedly, and with passion) that they are taking things a day at a time with Manziel, and would never make determinations about the depth chart in September based on two practices in May.

There's competition at every position on the roster, and anyone who realistically thinks that Manziel doesn't have a chance to win the starting job in September, if he performs well, is being wildly unrealistic. This attitude is fear mongering at it's best.

(That said, the prospect of him being prepared and capable enough to WIN the job later are far different, given how raw Manziel is and how much time he lost in his rookie year developing)

Manziel didn’t become Johnny Football by handing off or flipping the ball 5 yards to a back in the flat.

Interestingly, that's exactly how Tom Brady became "TFB," but sure, there's only one route to NFL success, and it clearly involves throwing the ball 35 times a game.

The Browns are going to mitigate the effect of the quarterback play as much as they are able to, regardless of who is under center. They've said this for two years, and there's little reason to believe that this offensive game plan has anything to do with the differences between the quarterbacks.

The Browns aren’t trying to reinvent Manziel. They are, by all appearances, moving on.

Second day of practice, and my eyes are already crossing when I read a synopsis with this brand of absolute statements. It's going to be a long off-season.

The only day media were allowed in to view one of the three OTA practices, Manziel looked unchanged from his rookie year. He was not assertive with knowing where to go with the ball and ran too much for an OTA practice.

Manziel started for only two years in college, and (admittedly) did not grow in his rookie season like the Browns would have expected. He's still very raw and is adjusting to becoming an NFL quarterback. He's only had 2 months (and change) to absorb a new playbook, and he'll continue to be very raw in the process. It's difficult in this age of instant gratification to avoid sweeping conclusions from these practices, but understand that Ray Farmer and Mike Pettine have a much longer view about what it will take to get Manziel to a point where they are prepared to start him in games that matter.

It’s probably understandable, considering what he’s been through in the offseason, a battle with something that defeated him.

This is the pièce de résistance of the entire piece. Not only does this comment clash wildly with the comments from the team about how hard Manziel has worked, but it's also an insult to those who have battled personal demons. The public doesn't know the details about what Manziel has struggled with and eventually committed himself to rehab over. Claiming that the issue "defeated" him is an insult to all those who have sought help for addiction or mental illness. Manziel may never succeed as an NFL quarterback, but do not assume that his struggles to develop are because he was "defeated" by personal battles. The reality is that a successful stint in rehab is a success, even if it doesn't translate into capability in a chosen career.

Browns fans face a summer of conjecture and bold, sweeping declarations. It's difficult to maintain perspective, but I challenge the public to wait before jumping to conclusions; the offense was considered dead on arrival last August, and proceeded to carry the Browns to a 7-4 start behind marginal QB play. The team has improved and gotten dramatically healthier on that side of the football, and the hyperbole can wait for actual games.

Link

You can't hold the franchise and fans hostage while you goof off. Right now today he is doing the right thing (I assume), but it wasn't to long ago he was laying around not doing the right thing. Which Johnny do we bank on?

The simple thing and the right thing to do is move on. You keep him and challenge him to work hard but from here going forward there are NO hand outs. You earn what you get. They were of the mind to hand him the team without his really earning it that is out the window at this point. In fact it should have never been on the table.

The bottom line here is this he has to earn his keep and he has to show he is worth the investment of time. But he decides and in the mean time the Browns move on if he catches up and proves he is worth the re investment then that happens and if he don't then we have moved on. As of this moment the Browns I believe have already written off the 1st round pick. I know I have.

Its not so much giving up on him as it is saying young man how this turns out is up to you but we aren't waiting for you.

I meant they were all average starting out. Now, they are great. The teams they were drafted had patience and developed them.

I just don't understand why fans can't see what the real problem is. It is very likely we will have double digit losses this year. And the fans will be clamoring for heads. I don't understand why the fans can't see that the real problem is constantly starting over again.

Yes, this may be way too early to say, or is Grossi is just gettin' his digs in again.... A lot of people think it's a bit of both. On the other hand, he may be right and those of us who still think maybe - just maybe - Johnny can pull off a miracle and be successful in the NFL read something like this and we immediately go into denial mode. Denial always comes first.

Think about how many people were upset when Trent Richardson was traded.

Think about how many people wanted Hoyer to stay, even though he fell apart the last few games.

I'm just sayin' it's easier to deny the truth then believe it..... (If the article is even is the truth in the first place.)

In time we'll all find out.

P.S. GO CAVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like pure Grossi. Lot of supposition there. Lame reporting if just stirring the pot.

REWRITE: Manziel had poor practice. McCown adapting.

Why is Grossi even relevant? Do people in Cleveland actually respect him?

I thought he was decent for a Browns reporter. I certainly liked him a lot more than Bud Shaw!!! But now it seems he has an axe to grind...

He's employed by ESPN-Cleveland as an analyst, not as a reporter. His reporting was always fairly solid at the PD, imo. As an analyst, he's paid for his opinion. Its like a buffet dinner; if you don't like it, you leave it.

Another tempest in a teapot. Bring on the season start, please...

Was it ever on the table?

Other than a few opinions, opinions mind you, I don't think I've ever seen anything saying anything like that.

Maybe if we could just get on the bandwagon with whatever it takes to win.