DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel.....continued

The only positive I can comment on after reading this thread is...

Happy 4th of July Dawgs!

Last positive post you had is when Holmgren drafted T Rich! What did that get us? Stay negative we have a better chance!!! LOL

Happy Fourth!!!!

THIS!!! Mac, I've stated somewhere. I don't want to see either side giving up until the seasons end. I don't give a rats arse if they are playoff bound our not. If "Play like a Brown" has any meaning, this team finishes strong. Otherwise, they still have weeding out to do and another off-season of uncertainty.

Shurmur and he was hailed for it.

I know this come the end of the season these people running the team need to have some concrete info on the QB situation, and they better have something better then what they are offering up now in the way of a solution.

But I have confidence in McCown by week 5 the Dawgs will have seen enough.

week 2

No, you didn't. I am not saying it is a fact that they will not sniff the playoffs. I am saying it is a fact that I do not think they will make the playoffs. There is a difference.

The Browns are being patient and trying to rebuild the QB in their image. I dont have a problem with that. Again, i would have thrown him in the fire last year and let him played his way out but this regime has another plan.

Hell if you took a poll and left Manziel's name off and asked how long should a spread QB sit and learn, I would say probably 95% of this board would say 2-3 years.

Johnny may get tossed in soon due to injury or performance by McCown but letting him run the scout and getting his mechanics back to where he isnt looking like Chappie is more important than when he gets on the field at this point. Hearing he is improving at going through his progressions and showing more command of the offense is all that most of us wanted at this time.

I want to see the kid play as much or more than most everyone but I also want to see a guy that is having fun and looking like he is ready to take this team to the next level. The one spread QB that has really excelled as a passer has been Rogers and sitting doesnt appear to have hurt him at all.

Anyway, I hope it starts to click for Johnny and we get the QB we thought we were getting on draft day. He has built a bond with McCown and McCown has been helping him become that professional, this is a good thing. We have O'Connel and Flip working with him to get his mechanics back and to develop his football mind. I just hope he took a few days to relax and hopefully he is now back into the playbook, working on his motion and becoming the master of the film room.

how players get ruined. throw them in before they are ready and destroy there confidence.

Why say that? I'd rather say the kid can be a good player and be wrong then hope the guy fails.


I don't get some of you people.

Yep, many of the self proclaimed media NFL analyst stated exactly that. When he started 2/3 into the season and didn't do well then checked into rehab, all bets are off kid is a bust.

Many here stated exactly that. Bridgewater and Carr were more likely potential starters last year. Bortels and Manziel needed a year or two to develop having a higher ceiling, sorry Pitt, potential. Now posters, about 95%, are calling bust. Farmer is a bumbling idiot drafting Manziel.

I've posted before and needs repeating. Take any 21 yo who thought his s__t didn't stink. Watch the kid fall flat on his arse. More likely than not the kid's lights get turned on. Not only that they embarrassed themselves to the point they work even harder trying to erase it.

Kid had talent needing nurturing coming out of college. How many are surprised with Johnny's first year? Now, let's hope this coaching staff can mold a QB. As of today, what is the worst that can happen? Many already predict totally failure, so any performance similar to Dalton would be considered what?

Yes Text is a bumbling idiot for taking a QB that would take 2-3 years to develop our needs are much more immediate then 2-3 years down the road, and if you can't see that folks its because you don't want too.

Further its funny to watch all the back tracking by the same people who were hell bent to see him play last year NOW. What they are saying is its not Johnny its because he needs time but thats not what any of you said last year, until he played that is.

Whats worse is the kid was dripping with character issues and they invested in him anyway. From there Johnny went out and wasted a full season basically doing nothing.

Like it or not this kid needs to give the team a reason to continue with him, and that needs to happen this year or will be drafting his replacement and we should be.

Difficult to dispute that statement...

I would remind everyone that most QB do not make the Pro Bowl as rookies, and none make the Hall of Fame after one season.

While both Carr and Bridgewater did show promise last year,that is no guarantee that they will succeed.

RG3 had a great season as a rookie, completing almost 66% of his passes for 3200 yards, 20 TD and 5 INT. He then also ran for 800 yards and 7 more TD. He looked like a sure superstar.

We had our own Pro Bowler, when DA had 29 TD and 19 INT. Things looked like we might have something. We know how that turned out.

Jake Locker actually threw more TD passes than INT in his 1st 3 seasons. His 4th season helped him decide to retire.

Colt McCoy looked promising as a rookie. So did Chad Henne.

Others have had decent. so-so rookie seasons, or even pretty bad rookie years,and have become competent or better QBs.

You cannot judge a QB's career by his rookie season.

You can judge whomever you want, however you want..

As long as it fits your argument..

I wouldn't argue with anything you said and I hope Johnny gets it together because we need him to be the guy we drafted. That said we cannot wait while he gets it together IMO.

He sucked real bad last year, that doesn't mean he will forever suck or that he is hopeless it does however mean we shouldn't wait. He has to show us or give us a reason to continue with him. That doesn't mean even winning games but he has to show something and to date he hasn't.

He has this year beyond that IMO will be determined by what he shows, and he is sure to get a chance to do just that if he fails like he did the 1st go round I would move on from him quickly. The franchise his team mates and the fans need for him to get it together that doesn't mean he gets forever. I would be more inclined to play along had he put forth a real effort last year.

I'm not concerned by what "many here stated". I'm used to hearing excuses for poor draft picks. The fact is, Manziel was way behind the curve when he was drafted and did everything he could to stay behind the curve. People can state anything they want. Manziel is an undersized kid who runs first when he senses pressure whether there's really any there or not.

Can he learn to be an NFL QB? Possibly, and we all hope he will. But the odds are certainly not in his favor. Last year was a year where he learned nothing. Basically this is his second rookie year. How many years can a fledging team keep waiting for a QB to mature? So far I haven't seen the potential you speak of.



You mean that he didn't work, learn the playbook and basically wasted the entire season? I would say anyone who supported us drafting him or the people who were actually responsible for us drafting him should be surprised by that or they shouldn't have drafted him in the first place.

Or are you saying they should have expected JFF to screw up all of last season?

So you're saying that if Manziel doesn't succeed it's the coaching staff's fault?

I've been hearing exactly what I wanted to hear about Manziel over the last couple months.. nothing. #knockonwood

if not the coaching staff then who?

I'm certainly happy about that too. I hope the kid gets his life straight and is the best he can possibly be. I'm just not so sure that will equate to being a successful NFL QB. I'm sure getting his head on straight will give him the best possible odds of it.

It's just that his entire skill set will have to be transformed into something he didn't show at Texas A&M for him to be an NFL QB. Nobody can say if that can or will be accomplished.

It's not going to hinge on Manziel changing much. it's going to hinge on the offensive scheme.

its been gone over a bunch, but manziel has the following attributes:

average NFL arm strength.
above average NFL accuracy.
poor size.
typically rookie form/technique issues.
typical rookie read/recognition issues.
average NFL defensive back straight line speed first 20-40 yards.

these things won't make him a star.

here are the attributes that make manziel a potential star NFL QB:

quick escapability, on the level of barry sanders or sproles in the phone booth
the ability to scramble and extend plays while continuing to track WR's in motion, and find new ones as they GET open.
the ability to see the entire field on the run, with incredible mental speed and awareness.
the ability accurately HIT open WR's from anywhere on the field, with a quick release, decent velocity and good accuracy -- from ANY BODY POSITION.

THESE are the reasons he made NFL quality athletes at Bama, etc., look ridiculous, and why he had BY FAR the best season of any QB in SEC history. They are why he won the heisman and they are the attributes that the Browns have to maximize to succeed on offense.

Unfortunately, shanahan took a bad offense for manziel (the run of the mill play action one read conservative base playbook he inherited from Dad), and made it MUCH worse last year.

When Manziel ran the base offense, he did ok. Better than Hoyer in preseason generally, and not bad in his first game action.

But when Shanahan installed the read option RG3 book in one week, it was a disaster. RG3 is a TOTALLY different athlete than manziel, and has nowhere near the performance cieling that Manziel has.

The scheme shanahan put in for Manziel literally MAXIMIZED everything the kid was average at, and ELIMINATED everything the kid excels at; plus it was a whole new set installed for the bengals and the whole team laid an egg.

Manziel will be decent in a normal NFL scheme. Manziel will be great in a scheme intended to highlight his strengths. Manziel had no chance to do anything last year.

the good news is, pryor and mccown to some extent have 'manziel light' scrambling abilities, and so perhaps there is hope that the staff recognizes these things and has the balls to tailor the offense appropriately.

the bad news is, nothing in Pettine's or Flip's resumes indicates any reason to expect the aptitude or attitude necessary to pull it off.

we'll see.

wow!!

I don't think that's true. He ran play action and threw from the pocket at TA&M and did so fairly successfully. He also scrambled around, ran the ball a lot, and made some ill-advised throws into coverage where Evans bailed him out. He needs to do all of the same things here, just in different proportion.. more PA and throw from the pocket, less running around trying to make things up. He can get away with that once in a while but not as often as he did back then or he will get killed.

I think it's going to come down to the mental.. if he can process the information, pre-snap and post-snap, he has the skills to be good.

Nice post, and I agree with most of that... Now prepare yourself for the onslaught. LOL

How about the player? Effort, dedication, intelligence and just old fashioned skill/talent.

You can't make chicken salad outta chicken crap.

with one player you can say that. but not 4 young players.

so you want him to play like he did in the bengals game?

the browns drafted a guy in the first round who has not shown to be elite at making 5 and 7 steps drops from a tight pocket and throwing quick one reads over a stacked OL - with a TE strong side and a back crowding him in pass pro or running play action. With practice, he can be plenty good enough at it, but that's not why he won the heisman and that's not why he was a legit first round talent.

he was a legit first round talent because he was the most brilliant spread QB ever seen, and took maximum advantage of space in the shotgun, quick and comprehensive field vision, taking the initiative from the pocket and turning it into first downs and touchdowns (in both pass and run game). he took initiative with good vision, quick release, and the ability to get the ball out from anywhere, at any time.

that is why he draws the favre comparisons. he doesnt have the cannon favre had, but he has the same ability within slightly smaller windows, and has much more scrambling ability. when the shit hits the fan, he is brilliant if he has a little space and if the team knows how to hold blocks, seek the next block, and run 'way points' in your routes and not quit and stare if the first read isnt thrown.

if the first or second read is open, he can hit it as well as most NFL starters. If it isnt, he can buy time and make things happen in ways no one else in the NFL can approach.

but you never saw that from last year's scheme.

taking the initiative away from him, and giving it to the DE in a zone read, is the absolute worst thing you could dream up for manziel's skillset, and followed only by QB draws against a spy with no threat of a hot read and no space from which to take the initiative.

he is not going to outrun a safety spy to the corner in the NFL who has the angle. but if he's in the pocket with some space, that same spy will have his jock laying on the turf with manziel 15 yards downfield before he knows it. shanahan just got an F in fundamtental player evaluation.

"Manziel will be decent in a normal NFL scheme. Manziel will be great in a scheme intended to highlight his strengths. Manziel had no chance to do anything last year."
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The attributes you list that will "potentially" make him a star in the NFL; he has to prove that he can do those things at the NFL level.

The NFL is bigger, faster, stronger across the board. Not just a few of the college players. The "field speed" he played at looked much different when played on the NFL field.

NFL defenses are way different to what is played in college. The defenses are disguised better, the coverage is tighter, the pass rush speed and athleticism not even close on a week to week basis.

There is no just get by week in the NFL. If you are not committed to preparation you lose.

Manziel first must prove he can be a starter before he can prove he can be great. The scheme will have very little to do with that.

BTW, just forget the bengals game. we got down 17-0, after 6 plays and 1 Manziel pass, (that was dropped), and we allowed 240+ yards rushing. The Browns ran a season-low 38 plays.

So, our offense needs to revolve around improvisation? That would certainly help his play callling. "You guys go run around and I'll find you if you get open..."

Valiant effort trying to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse but what we have here is a huge reach by a team that wanted to sell jerseys...

agreed on all points, but scheme is everything. you wouldn't put dan marino in the wildcat, and you shouldn't put manziel in the zone read.

it is not certain that manziel will be great even if the scheme is right. but it is certain he won't the way the browns have used him thus far.

That's what you got from my post?

He ran play action and threw from the pocket in the bengals game.

Admittedly he was unprepared. You must have missed my subsequent post to the one you quoted in which I said that his biggest challenge was the mental, pre-snap and post-snap reads.. and that if he can learn to get those right, which he wasn't even close in the Bengals game, that I think his physical skills are good enough.

yea ok. but he sure looked small and slow to me so im not so sure about physical skills.