DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel.....continued

He is small, not much you can do about that. But I think he looked slow because he didn't know what he was supposed to be doing. He was thinking the whole time. If he can get to the point where he has the playbook and schemes down, his improv within that system, I think, can be really good.

If you are scrambling and aren't sure where your receivers are supposed to be, you are going to look slow and bad. Hell that's something Russell Wilson has made a career out of, he scrambles around then pops up and throws a strike because he knows exactly where his guys are going to be. Manziel would scramble around then pop up and have to figure out who was where... can't look good that way.

All in all there are questions to his game but I think if he gets his mind right, we can at least see if he can physically cut it... and I think he can.

I can agree with all of that, Bonefish. I can handle losing with a new guy if he plays hard and doesn't repeat mistakes (like Flipper and failing to throw it away to avoid sacks, etc.). But I can't see an endless patience without serious improvement and solid play.

"Above average NFL accuracy" ... based on what?

"NFL DB speed"? No, sorry, Johnny ran 4.69 at his Combine workout. That's NFL ILB/DE speed. (In the Cinci game he got run down by a DE.)

that play is the one i keep thinking about.

good post. i don't think the browns will run a pure spread by any means. but when they drafted manziel they committed to running a scheme you can't ferment right out of the usual NFL mold. you have to find ways to maximize it.

his job will always be to deliver the ball to the player with the best opportunity for gain, but failing to take the offense in a good direction will result in dissapointment - ala last year.

manziel has upside like a smarter, more accurate michael vick; a much quicker steve young, a more versatile russell wilson.

that's his potential.

to reach it, he needs to do everything he can do, AND the staff has to do everything THEY can do to realize it.

hoyer was a TOTALLY different type of QB, so last year was disjointed no matter what. mccown and the USC guy are both a little more similar, and pryor is an odd pickup for sure.

i dont want to pick on you but where do you get that from?

vick was never good at reading defenses or making quick reads. manziel showed that in spades in college, and i expect it will show soon enough in the nfl. manziel is also more accurate, though he doesnt have the cannon.

So you don't believe since Manziel felt the need to go to rehab during the off season, that substance abuse and the lack of focus had anything to do with his performance?

I am not sure if you do this on purpose, but you seem to make a habit of these types of posts.

So, because others failed later, that means that Carr and Bridgewater will fail? You did not one qb that started off pretty good and continued to be good. You did say that some qbs start off bad and end up good.

So, you want us to believe that having a good or decent rookie year actually is a precursor to failure and a guy like JM actually has a better chance of succeeding?

Okie dokie.

Welcome to the board and I enjoyed your posts.

I do wanna say something about this prevailing notion that we completely changed the offense for Johnny and went w/a Read/Option offense.

That simply is not true.

The offense was the same offense w/a few plays thrown in to allow Johnny some opportunities to showcase his supposed play-making skills. We did not completely change the offense.

Oh, I get it. It is best to draft the sure thing with less of an upside, remember Philip Rivers, over a Drew Brees. Yep, the same Drew Brees who needed a year or two. He was a little short and needed a few years development. If the same scene plays out again, Browns are better off going the conservative approach. After all its been like 50 years Browns need to simply get a QB that can win games. Why on earth would anyone take a chance at a possible super bowl QB?

Oh, right, cbr! Wasn't determined last year that, that stood for Cleveland Browns' Rookie? Johhny, is that you?

Agree totally. Johnny Football is dead....according to Johnny Manzel...it is put up or shut up...or you're gone time for Johnny, JMHO, he's said all the right things coming out of rehab...he has to show he can play, he didn't know the playbook and he partied...past, hope the future is bright for Johnny...we will see...sidebar- our GM talked about quick decisions, getting rid of ball...one of reasons he like Hoyer...did he see those traits in Johnny...he sure didn't show that last year...hope he comes thru.....GO Browns!!!!

Outside of height, there is no comparison between Manziel and Brees. I hear this comparison made all the time and I just don't understand it. The most relevant comparison to Manziel in terms of skill is Fran Tarkenton. The most relevant comparison to Manziel in terms of personality is Ryan Leaf. Brees wouldn't make my top 10 in relevant Manziel comparisons. They are night and day.

1st your making a huge assumption that Johnny can make it at ALL.

2nd he wasted an entire year doing nothing, and in doing so he has set the team back.

3rd there is no 2nd 1st year, at this point its up to him to show something that says he is worth the time and the investment.

4th the organization he is playing for has shown signs that they were willing to move on from him via trying to get Bradford.

5th I strongly suspect that if given the opportunity to find a replacement he will be gone similar to what happened to Tebo.

We IMO can't wait the balance of the talent on this football team says win, and win NOW it doesn't say lets lose while Johnny gets it together.

But given the FACT that we are pretty much stuck with what we got at this time he gets more time via default much the same as McCown gets the starting gig.

Given that he is being given a second chance he had best show something that gives the organization and its fans hope and to date he has NOT. If he doesn't he won't be on this roster next spring. That DOES NOT mean he has to pile up wins he has to show flashes of something you can build on and he hasn't even done that yet.

We can't wait while he grows up and in the mean time the talent we have on the balance of the team rots on the vine.

Hate to let you in on something, but that's par for the course with this organization.

Aren't you doing the same in reverse? You're stating Manziel is washed up. He can't change. Since he didn't do well as a 21 yo, he'll never amount to anything. We should have drafted Carr, who by the way had many negatives, or Bridgewater, who, too, had many question marks, both provide a better option being a franchise QB. Be that Manziel came into the league a little to over confident relying on his ability, how can you state he is washed up? After all Manzeil was successful in college beating some pretty powerful teams. Compare his success against Carr and Bridgewater. Your thinking Carr and Bridgewater stands head and shoulder better. Again, really?

Again, we debate the same thing. You state he has no chance and I say give the kid time. You've stated over and over the time is now. If this team and FO isn't playoff bound, Cleveland is doomed. Really? I mean seriously. Browns have no options left. They get it this time or else. Else what, Browns finish with five to seven wins again? You also make a pretty bold prediction Manziel can never be as good as Dalton. You know the guy who is very average who took Cincy to the playoffs twice. Don't give me the argument you never said Dalton is or is not better. By saying Manzeil can't make it is pretty much stating he can't top Dalton.

To me, you are making a bold statement Manziel can't and will not be anywhere near the caliber Dalton brings the Bengals. This is all based Manziel struggled his first year. Hmm, both Carr and Bridgewater played a pro style offense in college where as Manzeil did not. To think, New Orleans took a chance on Brees who did not accomplish anything even close to what Manzeil did.

Sorry BTTB I can't buy it. Johnny accomplished way to much to be trashed. If QBs like RG iii are given more than a year, how can you argue Manzeil can't succeed who accomplished more?

You, of all people, know short QBs, see the Saints, must have the right talent surrounding him to make it work. You know well Saints did a lot of work putting Brees in the right light. And, you know Brees wouldn't be nearly as successful in a standard NFL offense. You also know Brees wasn't a playoff QB his first couple of years.

OK, we cannot wait, so what's your solution? Please don't say, we should have done this or done that, that's yesterdays news.

Look at where we sit today and tell us what you would do as the GM/Owner/HC to fix it TODAY.

No I am not you need to read what I wrote, and not what you want me to write or what you think I wrote.



Never said that either. What I said is that he has to show something that would cause the team to continue with him. And he does the little show he put on last year along with his play has brought him to where he is, I can't see the Browns sticking with him if he doesn't show marked improvement over what we saw from him last year including his off the field issues.



I never mentioned Carr nor did I mention Bridgewater, nor did I say he would never amount to anything.

Here is where most of you lose me especially Tab. If I say McCown has sucked his whole career (which he has) he will snap back with your just to attached to Hoyer. Hoyer has zero to do with McCown in my mind outside of the fact that the Browns let Hoyer walk while signing up McCown. But my take on McCown the QB has nothing to do with Hoyer. Just like my take on Johnny has nothing to do with Carr or Bridgewater. Not only that go thru this entire thread and you will NOT find one instance where I said we should have taken Carr or Bridgewater over Johnny, although I confess it certainly looks that way.



Never said he is washed up, your making that up...Although he is trending towards BUST. Are you saying he isn't?



I could care less who he beat in college, I only really care if he can show me something that will lead me to believe that somewhere down the road he is going to be able to beat the Steelers, Bengals, and Ravens consistently.



Again I never NOT once mentioned Carr or Bridgewater, but sense you mentioned it at this time both those players look worlds better then Johnny are you saying they don't?



Wow dude are you on some parallel planet to the earth I stand on? Where did you see me mention Dalton, point it out PLEASE.



Right now lets stick to Johnny OK? But 1st again show me where I said diddly about Dalton, your hallucinating dude.



Johnny has accomplished anything other then being drafted into the NFL, he played last season and he sucked, he wasted the entire year drinking and drugging and I do NOT grade his performance based on wins and loses but the lack of a spark, or anything that says ahha this is why we drafted him. He will decide what becomes of his career going forward and IMO he has got to show something mainly because he was oh so bad last year. At this point given his off the field issues in conjunction with is on the field lack of performance he has to prove himself IMO for it to make sense for the Browns to continue holding a roster spot for him beyond the upcoming season. You may not like that, to bad.



Man you must be on another planet. Brees struggled his 1st few years in SD and he struggled enough so the Bolts Drafted Rivers. Oddly enough the season following the Bolts drafting Rivers, Brees really started coming into his own. But prior to that although Brees struggled he showed enough for the Bolts to continue with him and allowed Rivers to sit out his 1st season. There is NO special offense that NO or for that matter SD run that is designed to minimize Brees's lack of height.

After reading your post Bugs I can't help but wonder were you drunk when you wrote it?

Your right for now we are stuck with him. I wouldn't let him go right now anyway. I would however make damned sure we don't see a repeat of last season. And he needs to know outside of his off the field issues his on the field performance needs to do a 180 as well.

I would bet my last dollar the Browns brought him in after last season and said the party is over clean up your act get in here and go to work or we will move on from you. I also would bet they told him point blank that if they had the chance to obtain his replacement he may be looking at the street.

I would also bet that had the Browns been able to land Bradford or Mariota he would be old news in Cleveland as we speak.

So I am clear I am in favor of Johnny being here, but he absolutely needs to show he is here to work and to be productive on some level on the field in order to continue with him beyond this season.

well they had there big meeting sunday, monday, and tuesday. wendsday morning johnny went to rehab so.........

So, there isn't a fix today then?

By the way, I agree, Not sure how it came down or what exactly was said at the end of the season, but I believe the Browns made it clear, Shape up or ship out. At least the timeline of events suggest that.

THe time line also suggests that they are serious about Manziel being the future because we didn't try to get anyone in the draft.

+1 certainly we all can agree on this

Say it aint so .... You're not suggesting a poster with a known agenda took a post and ignored what the original poster intended it to say and manipulated the the message???

I hope the last few posts hit the nail in the head - JM gets nothing given to him unless he earns it - and if he isn't 100% committed to putting the Browns and football first above everything in his life (other than his health and well being) then he's goneski. He had a giant task to prove himself as a rookie and he dug a bigger and deeper hole for himself, so there is literally a mountain to climb. Its not impossible, but I'll wait for the proof before giving him any merit as an NFL QB.

I am sorry that you got all of that out of what I wrote.

My intention was merely to state that just because a QB has modest success as a rookie, does not guarantee that he will become a star.

That's all. I don't know where you got the rest.

it's right there.

"You cannot judge a QBs career by his rookie season."

That's true.

Seems pretty black and white to me.

Be careful of jumping to conclusions, especially when the player has only played one year.

That's a really reasonable, objective statement.

I got it because you make a lot of posts like that. You mention something and then ONLY point to negative [or positive] examples as your proof. You don't look at both sides.

For instance, you did the very same thing when using stats in regards to our rushing attack. Of course, you forgot to mention our overall rank and yds. per carry rankings.

It is certainly your right to only provided selected stats or situations that support your argument. It is also the right of the reader to read it w/healthy skepticism because only one side of the argument is being supported.

I'm kinda thinkin' Mr. Football is only doing so-so so far as we haven't heard much about him from the Browns camp, or at least not as yet....

I was hopin' for a big comeback, but that might have to be filed under wishful thinking?

Well everyone got there wish with a running qb. I still say I don't wont one . been saying it sents rg3 came out but I hope jonny gets it together.

I don't think it was his running ability as much as it was his ability to escape

to be blunt every QB not named JFF looked better at escaping.

I'm very happy that JF seems to be staying out of the spotlight. I know the couple bumps with fans happened but the partying seems to have ended.

I'm talking about his college career. The poster said they got a running QB. My point was that it wasn't his running, it was his ability to escape and make plays.

He didn't do it for the Browns, evidently, but it was his thing in college.

+1, it seems JF is gone, along with "let's wreck this league"...boy, did he get an awakening; we will find out if the football player has enough want to...he didn't last year...his peers called him a joke, lost year, his pride should be hurt, hope he as enough drive and ABILITY to make an impact.....GO Browns!!!!

JH has a leash through 2015. Then Johnny's daddy and the shared legal team with JH cannot save Johnny anymore.