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TRUE...Honestly I don't think any roster decisions can be based on what I saw from this scrimmage alone.

j/c:



^ There goes my assumption....



https://twitter.com/MarcSesslerNFL

At the present time, Hartline and Hawkins are our starting wideouts in the depth chart. And yes, Hartline will stay.

1. Hartline
2. Bowe
3. Hawkins
4. Gabriel
5. Pryor
6. Benjiman



This is a critical mistake when looking at WR's. Hartline is 6'2" and 200 lbs. The question you didn't ask was how crisp are Hartlines routes. Hartline is actually bigger than Jerry Rice and runs a faster 40 than Rice did.

You see, being a good WR is far more about your route running and hands than it is about pure size and speed.

I didn't realize Heartline was 6'2". I thought slightly under 6'. My bad for assuming!! Thus, why I thought Gabriel could be a replacement. Browns wouldn't carry two with equal skill set. Another reason, I think people grossly underestimate Browns receivers. Not having numbers to back it stat trackers trump my opinion. This receiver group will be fun to watch.

I should have clarified a little more. I thought it was a given a good receiver is a "route runner." Speed/size and having great "route running" skills is a must for receivers.

I'll change my tune here. I agree with your 1-4. Having two receivers with size and two with speed does setup well (all route runners). I'm curious how they work match ups each week. I think Gabriel studs this year too.

I can't even adventure guessing who I want after the first four. Preseason will certainly bring out competition. Pryor certainly adds to the size factor. I'm a little bias toward Shane Wynn being a IU alumni. Both these guys complement the four.

After the Smurf season last year I'm glad they brought in balance at the WR position. Some have stated they believe the reason is because McCown is so used to working with big WR's but I don't believe that's the case. I believe they realized the added dimension of big bodied WR's ability to use body position and fight for grabs was something sorely lacking last year. I believe all one has to do is look at our TD passes, or lack there of in the red zone to see it was needed.

To me, it's all about balance. You need size/speed/ball catching running backs just as you need size/speed at receiver. You can say the same at TE. Defenses have weaknesses. More combinations more answers you have against.

I am a big advocate for "balance." I feel you can build a great offense without the likes of Brady, Manning, and Rodgers. Where teams can win games with Flaco, Eli, and Wilson. It's not like these guys are average just not as good as the elite.

Those are my thoughts. I don't think we will simply cut a quality player unless we exhaust all trade options. If nothing else we can pick up a 5th-6th rounder.

Browns training camp Day 11: Joe Thomas takes a couple days off and Johnny Manziel rests a sore right elbow

* Whew: Joe Thomas said he can’t remember ever having to leave a practice because of injury, but Monday’s roll-up on his right knee proved not serious enough to even merit an MRI. Thomas did not practice on Tuesday and most likely will not play in the preseason opener Thursday against Washington. “If it was a game that mattered, I’d be there,” he said. He did squeal in pain when Danny Shelton and another defensive lineman accidentally fell on his right leg, but said he knew the injury was not too serious. “When you get 700 pounds falling on your leg, you’re pretty concerned. Once I got up I knew it wasn’t too bad,” he said. The scare might prompt the Browns to reduce, if not eliminate, any game action for the eight-time Pro Bowl left tackle in the preseason – except that he wants to play. “I guess I’ve got enough confidence in myself that I don’t feel I have to play,” he said. “But I like to play. I want to go out there and be there with my linemates and be out there helping Josh (McCown) and doing everything I can. If I’m healthy, it’s only fair to those guys to be out there giving my best.” In Thomas’ absence on Tuesday, rookie Cam Erving and Michael Bowie split first-team reps at left tackle.

* The streak: Thomas, 30, disclosed that he has played through three medial collateral ligament (MCL) tears and two high ankle sprains while assembling a mind-boggling streak of 7,917 snaps without missing a down in his eight NFL seasons – the longest active streak in the league, per the Browns. I asked him if the streak alone puts pressure on him to play through injuries. “I don’t think it’s more important to me than just the pride I have being out there with my linemates and doing what I can to try to help my team win. That’s really the pressure that I feel,” Thomas said.

* Johnny shut down: Johnny Manziel did not throw in practice as a result of soreness in his right elbow. Manziel tossed a few spirals left-handed to ball boys and did participate in handoffs to running backs but otherwise watched the other three quarterbacks do all the passing work. “He had some stiffness and soreness in his elbow,” said quarterbacks coach Kevin O’Connell. “It just comes from high volume of throws. He’s obviously worked very, very hard every day to be ready. Sometimes you have to kind of help a guy out when he’s working that hard and take a day. He had a heckuva day mentally.” Manziel had his right elbow wrapped in ice after the Columbus scrimmage on Friday night, but Manziel said he does that after every game and coach Mike Pettine said it was routine for all the quarterbacks. O’Connell indicated a sore elbow is no different from a tired arm. “Depending on how a guy throws a football, we’re all different,” said the former Patriots and Jets quarterback. “Some guys get the shoulder soreness, some guys get the elbow. There’s really nothing to make of that other than high volume of throws in a short amount of time.” O’Connell and Pettine said that Manziel would not be limited for Thursday’s game.

* Receivers have to catch: Two newcomers struggling with drops throughout camp have been tight end Rob Housler and rookie receiver Vince Mayle. Pettine said of Housler’s problems: “I think that’s something that’s obvious that he needs to work on. The rest of his game has been solid, but when the ball is thrown to you, you’ve got to catch it. I know that’s something he knows and (tight ends) Coach (Brian) Angelichio knows, and they work on it every day. But we’re in a bottom line business. I’m confident he’ll put in the work and when we get out in the preseason games, that’s when it counts the most. We’ll see how it plays out.” On Mayle, who broke a thumb at the Senior Bowl and participated in the offseason workouts wearing a cast, Pettine said: “Coming off the thumb I thought he struggled early in camp with soreness. But Vince has done some good things. I think he’s faster in pads than we anticipated him to be. He plays hard every snap. We’ll see … how he responds in a game.”

* Scratches: The following players were among those still not practicing on Tuesday and were ruled out of Thursday’s game by Pettine: Receivers Dwayne Bowe and Terrelle Pryor, running backs Shaun Draughn and Duke Johnson, and cornerbacks Pierre Desir and Robert Nelson.

* Quick hitters: This is what receiver Brian Hartline said about team expectations: “The talent’s here to go .500. We don’t want to be .500. We want to be above that.” … Receiver Josh Lenz switched to No. 17 from No. 7 … Running back Terrance West spent a couple periods in the coaches doghouse as a rookie. How’s he doing this year? “I think he’s taken a step. I think there’s still room for improvement. But I think Terrance is heading in the right direction,” Pettine said.

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=48391

I wonder how much of Mayle's issues are the thumb - either actual, or mental.

I saw someone on here call him another body catcher like Braylon - was he like that in college, or is that just what we've seen of him here? Basically, I'm wondering if it isn't a subconscious thing he's doing right now to protect that thumb.

Mayle had 19 drops as a senior, the highest in the nation. The second highest was 12. Drops are a part of the resume before the thumb injury. It isn't something new.

He is also very raw as a receiver. I think that was his 2nd year as a WR, IIRC.

He's not an immediate payoff type guy .... he is a guy who needs to develop a bit.

I keep hearing this about our draft picks. JFF, Mayle. etc....

I wonder if they actually draft players to you know, play?

Look, he had seven more drops than anyone else in the NCAA. You simply can't excuse that away. Drops are calculated on the same basis for everyone in the NCAA. So trying to spin it away really has no validity.

Check this one out:








Hope that helps.

To be fair he was also at the top in # of receptions as well. What I watched on the kid, I didnt see a great deal of body catching but I did see a lack of concentration. He will turns his thumbs out instead of back. Just raw, we will see how he is doing by the 4th preseason game.

Was I not being fair for pointing out that tab's answer to Purp was not the truth?

Nope, you were spot on. Mayle has a history of drops, but as Mourg stated it may be more the concentration piece then dropsies.

Isn't mayle new to the receiver position? I thought I read somewhere that he has only been playing this spot for a short time, so he theoretically has a high ceiling. Also, he was one the most productive WR's in CFB last year, granted it was in a pass heavy offense, but more targets equal more potential perceived drops right?

I don't think Mayle gets cut. Too early. If we try to sneak him on the practice squad I think someone will pick him up (Charles Johnson anyone?)

Unless he completely bombs the preseason, I think Mayle is a lock. If Pryor doesn't come back and play soon, he is the one on the bubble big time.

You bring up some good points.

Here are some things I know about him from reading:

--Yes, he is relatively new to the position. He wanted to be a basketball player. He was playing JC ball.


--Very good physical size, but you probably already knew that.

--High production.

--Maturity issues.

--Hears footsteps, which led to many of his drops.

--Needs work on route running.

--Has a high ceiling.

--Doesn't use his body to fight for the ball.

--Can make big plays.

--Good runner after the catch.

--Struggles w/press coverage.

--Plays "small" at times.

--Slow off the LOS, but good long speed.

--Willing blocker, but has poor technique and gets a lot of holding calls.

--Not a good route runner....caught a lot of bubble screens in college.

--NFL ready frame.

--Many drops are when he thinks contact is coming.

--Almost quit. Wanted to play basketball rather than football.

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree w/Memphis in that this guy is very similar to Greg Little.

Drops are calculated the same, but it makes sense that the player with the most receptions would also have a lot of drops. I'd be more interested in the rate in which he dropped passes and not the actual total number.

Did you miss all the reports about how he caught a TON of bubble screens and dropped a TON of passes that were contested?

if you go back to school for him, he dropped a lot of balls, but when you compare to the number of balls thrown his way , it's not as worrisome.

See above.

I must have. My main point still stands, if a player has a ton of passes thrown his way, he will drop more passes.

I am not saying Mayle is good or bad. I am saying I don't know. As I said before, I am more interested in the rate at which he drops passes more than the total number of passes dropped. I don't know if those numbers exist (or if the people tallying those numbers are reliable).

I forget which thread I posted it on, but I did post a bunch of his stuff on one of threads tonight. You might want to do do a search Vince Mayle scouting reports. You'll see what I mean.

I don't really care all that much. I think he is a bubble guy on the roster as it is.

LOL............okay.

I think I read somewhere back around the draft that he was targeted 12-15 times a game? Averaged 10 receptions or something like that? I think his drop rate was like 8% or something? Dropping 8% of your passes obviously won't cut it in the NFL, but there's got to be some kind of reason you target a guy like that so many times.

Can't say I'd argue many of the points on your list. But I will say that much if not most of those can be improved upon and overcome. It may have just been fluff, but I recall reading a blurb awhile back talking about how Mayle has been trying to study the top WR's in the league and adopt those techniques.

I don't know if I'd be ready to dub him Gregg Little 2.0 just yet. I'd have to see him in action. Little always bummed me out. Whenever the guy actually caught the ball, I thought he was pretty dang good after the catch.

Eh, I think it is, as the proportions do not even out.

He dropped 19 last year, the next highest was 12. So that means his number of drops is 58.3% higher than then next guy. So in order for his catch ratio to match the second-most-drops-guy he would have to have had 58.3% more passes thrown his way than that guy. I can't find any numbers as to the number of targets, or even who that other guy was, but having that many more targets doesn't seem likely. And that would just to be "as bad as the 2nd worst guy" and not to be "good."

But I hesitate to drag facts and statistics into one of these threads. Putting math in here is worrisome enough.

Nobody said to cut his ass. The point is he has trouble with drops. Maybe that can be corrected and maybe it can't. That doesn't change the fact he has an issue with drops. It's not a new problem, it's an ongoing problem. Point being, excuses won't change that.

Fair post. We have to let it play out. It's just fun discussing this kind of stuff.

I think my biggest point of contention is that you don't teach "good hands." By this point in time, he should have received enough coaching to know how to properly catch the ball.

Think about a guy like Odell Beckham Jr. Do you think anyone taught him to catch like that? He just has it. We all know guys like Leon, Q, and Little had good coaching, but they never mastered catching the ball.

Anyway.........again.....we are both speculating right now. There are no wrong or right answers. It's just good debate and conversation.

Actually, I just heard an interview on the Dan Le Batard show with Beckham and Jarvis Landry. They grew up together and went to LSU together. Landry said that they used to go outside and just throw the ball as hard as they could at each other to practice their hands.

Guys w/good hands love catching the ball. I hate saying this because it is self-serving, but my brother and I both had very good hands. We used to throw things at each other all the time. It would start off casual, but it always escalated. It always became a contest. My son and I did the same thing. One handed catches. Hands facing the wrong way. It's fun!!!

I saw a great clip last year where Michael Irvin was w/the Bears' receivers. They are all doing trick questions. Michael [and I know most people hate him, but he was hilarious] gets up there and starts catching balls from the JUGS machine. He says something like: no one had to teach me how to catch and he scoff laughs. He says that the day he was born the doctor tried to slap his butt and he caught his hand. LMAO.........he does this while catching balls from the machine that are coming at him pretty hard. He talked the entire time. The cross-handed catch was the hardest one. Jeffries and Marshall did it earlier. Michael dropped a few, but then he got it..........talking the entire time. Man, that was entertaining.

Some guys can catch...........some can't.

I remember the draft special a day before the 2011 NFL draft...Irvin selected Greg Little as his top WR outside of AJ Green in that draft...and said he had something around the strongest hands in that class (which he obviously had poor hands catching wise...perhaps they were strong)

I knew OBJ had really nice hands at LSU...but I was amazed his hands seemed to get even more amazing in the NFL (I don't recall his hands being amazing in college, but definitely had amongst the top hands that class) All the talk was Watkins and Evans...I was talking up Brandin Cooks, when OBJ became a monster...the other 3 are beasts as well, but Odell has perhaps the best hands in the league