Hope to watch this tonight; Pett has talked "scrimmage, not practice drills." Any expectations about what we will see? What are you looking for? Any scrimmage-related is OK by me.

I want to watch Flip's offense, especially passing. Obviously QB stuff. And defensive line. Especially Shelton.

I just read that the scrimmage will be on NFL Network at 6pm. I get to see some Browns action tonight!!!!! I am really in need of a fix.

We're heading out the door in a few minutes on our way there. The boys and I are going to make a day of it.

Arrgghh...got to hope to get in touch with the Wife to record it - Friday is a Swim day for me, go straight from work to the Town Pool! Don't get home till after 6:30.

Thanks for the heads up.

Jeep I hope you guys have a blast. Expect some good stories come tommorow

Also at 9pm on NFL Network will be a recap, player interviews, highlights, etc of the scrimmage.

Thanks, just saved me some Googling!

I'll be there with CapitalGG and Saintdawg! Heading to The Library bar on high street if anyone wants to stop by - I'll be there around 3 when they open.

I'll have a new style brown #23 Haden jersey on if anyone wants to say hello.

Go Browns!

Doesn't DirecTv have an app for smart phones so you can set it to record from wherever you are?

If you think about it, please tell saint I said hi. I've been to the Library Bar with him before. We've been Buds since Jesus was a corporal. lol

You guys have a great time and please give us updates of what you saw.

say hey to cap & saint

apps??? smart phone???
I just call n text - my wife is the only app I need...lol

Browns will win this easy! Go BROWNS!

Final Score

Cleveland 0
Browns 0

So its a Soccer game...

But my understanding was that Randy Lerner had sold the team to Jimmy...

I read that they'll be doing 7 on 7 drills tonight in the shoe...

Is there going to be an actual full team 11-on-11 scrimmage tonight? or no?

Scrimmage Details

There will be some 1-on-1 and 7-on-7 drills, but the primary action is supposed to be close to a game-like atmosphere with the first-teamers vs. first-teamers, second-teamers vs. second teamers, and third-teamers vs. third-teamers in 11-on-11 drills.

This will be one of the first times we get a more clear look at the depth chart leading up to the first official release of the depth chart prior to next week's preseason game. However, there could be a few exceptions, such as head coach Mike Pettine indicating that QB Johnny Manziel might see some reps with the first-team offense. Some players will be moved around due to injuries too.

The team is expected to be in full pads with live tackling.

Per Browns.com, it is expected that there will be a kicking competition at halftime between Carey Spear and Travis Coons. Up until this point, the Browns really haven't utilized the kickers in camp. In fact, it seems like we've seen more offensive and defensive linemen doing kicks than the actual kickers.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/8/7/91...columbus-how-to

Speaking of kickers, I really hope we found our next Phil Dawson in one of these two. I don't know if there were any available, or the FO just didn't think it was all that important a position, but I hope they learned especially after last season how valuable a kicker who has a range greater than 50yrds and is consistent at that distance really is.

Can't be there. Hope to read some eyes on stuff tomorrow! Enjoy it all.

Just wonderful! A Browns Night. I am in a great frame of mind for this new set-up.

desir out?

hamstring.

Offenses looking decent so far ... McCown, when he has a clean pocket and can step up, is effective (but we already knew it)

Orchard and Shelton have been active here thus far

Maybe Josh Lenz will take the spot of a WR we're counting on?

Watching on tape delay, only 11 minutes in but Manziel is throwing a very good ball today.

Only 7 on 7 so plenty of time and nobody in your face but still.

Looks like a 6 and 10 team

Wilcox talks like this is second coming of the Pats

I like the change in color to our helmets.

Missed the Jhonny TD

Ray texting up in the booth

Sheldon is a monster HUGE

Thad looked terrible ... I honestly don't think we'll keep 3 QBs

McCown looks like a decent backup QB.

Thad is a camp arm at this point in his career.

Shaw looked better than mccown to be honest but practice squad he will go.

Johnny looks comfortable in this offense and I will be surprised if he doesnt beat McCown out before opening day. I know its early but there was a big difference in the 2.

+1, Johnny got sacked once, threw nice deep ball to Hartline and on goalline drill made great throw in tight coverage for score to Mayle....JF looked better than McCown...although Mc made nice rollout TD pass to Hartline.....D looked good....Shelton was sweet....GO Browns!!!

Shelton and Orchard really impressed me

Benji still doesnt look comfortable on returns but he looked pretty good as a receiver.

With Johnny, he just really looked like an NFL Qb moving adjusting and keeping his eyes and his toes pointed down field.

cooper was also impressive tonight i thought

Was definitely a fun time...my QB notes (taken with 2 screaming children on my lap)...

McCown - First drive was impressive, defense felt a little soft on that drive, gave up a few huge plays, it wasn't full go obviously. Remainder of the drives were OK, had a few nice passes, he did look to rush things at times (mostly when on the move).

Manziel - First drive was not so impressive, later drives were. They have a nice pass from him on nfl network from 7 on 7, but the throw near the end to I believe Lenz in the red zone drills was beautiful. He also had a nice roll out and could have scrambled but stopped and threw a nice pass down field for 12-15 yards instead.

Lewis - Um, I don't think he'll be a Brown much longer

Shaw - If we keep a third QB, it will likely be him. He had some nice passes/plays and well and did lead a scoring drive.


Other players...

Lenz - I have no idea who this kid is or where he came from (Iowa State), but he made so many plays. I think he was targeted 7-8 times and came down with each time.

RBs - I don't remember any real production from our run game, maybe 1-2 plays for positive yards.

Shelton - The dude is huge. I mean really huge...did I mention he is huge? I believe he was the one that got a sack on Manziel and he just blew up whoever was playing RT at the time. If it wasn't him please feel free to correct me.

Thank you for the recap. I thought Thad shined a little with Buffalo. Can you go with 2 QBs when you have a 36 yr old and his back-up sustained a season ending injury in just his second start....eh....

I've always liked Thad, but I just felt Shaw just looked a bit better

And this was the pass I was talking about:

4) Wide receiver Josh Lenz a consistent playmaker throughout the scrimmage
Wearing No.7 and running precise routes, Lenz unofficially had four catches in the scrimmage from three different quarterbacks. For those who have attended Browns training camp, this isn’t a breaking development. Lenz is a smooth athlete with quick feet, strong hands and a penchant for playmaking. He caught a sleak, back-shoulder touchdown pass from Manziel late in the second half.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...dd-026d0851b41f

Johnny Manziel excels in Browns scrimmage: Link

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
Follow on Twitter
on August 07, 2015 at 8:51 PM, updated August 07, 2015 at 9:54 PM



COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Quarterback Johnny Manziel didn't get to work with the first-team offense as anticipated during the Browns Orange and Brown scrimmage at Ohio Stadium, but he made the most of his time with the second team offense.


He completed 9-of-11 attempt for 93 yards with two touchdowns, a 4-yard pass in the end zone to tight end E.J. Bibb, and an 18-yarder to Josh Lenz, a nice back shoulder throw on the left side of the end zone over Kendall James.

"Yeah, I think that's the thing,'' said Manziel, who played in front of a crowd of 49,734. "Stringing three or four good days in a row together and felt really comfortable out there today. I was really looking forward to getting out here in front of these guys for the scrimmage and getting into a little bit of a live setting, and I think it really went well for all guys. I think Josh did a good job with the ones. I think Connor and Thad did a good job handling the threes as well. So all around just looking at our room as a whole, I thought it was really nice."

Manziel has improved his pocket presence by leaps and bounds over last year.

"It's definitely a comfortability about it right now that I definitely like,'' he said.

Pettine noted that he's setting his feet much better.

"Yeah, I thought made some good throws today in the pocket,'' he said. "So it's not like some of those games later in the year last year where I was trying to escape to right away. I really trust these guys that I have and these protections. When we're hot, we're hot and we know it and we're getting the ball out. Feeling comfortable is a good thing."

Manziel overcame adversity on his first drive, including an incomplete deep ball and a sack, to finish strong with the two TD drives.

JOSH MCCOWN SCORES: Browns likely starting quarterback Josh McCown put points on the board on his first two opportunities in team drills, a 10-yard touchdown pass to former Ohio State receiver Brian Hartline and a 47-yard field goal by Travis Coon in red zone drills against the first-team defense. On the TD drive, McCown went 3-for-4 for 72 yards, including a 47-yard strike over the middle to Gary Barnidge and a 15-yard play-action pass to Travis Benjamin on the opening play. McCown also had a pass tipped at the line.

The drive was impressive, and drew praise from NFL Network analysts Mike Mayock and Solomon Wilcots, who praised the veteran's accuracy and footwork.
On the field goal drive, McCown's pass in the back of the end zone intended for Brian Hartline was broken up by Justin Gilbert.

"McCown is known as a game-manager but there's nothing wrong with that,'' said Mayock, noting that McCown is a savvy veteran.

JUSTIN GILBERT SUBS FOR JOE HADEN, HURTS HAND

2014 No. 8 overall pick Gilbert started at cornerback in place of Joe Haden, who got the night off. Pierre Desir had been getting the nod ahead of Gilbert to sub for the resting starters, but Desir suffered a pulled hamstring in practice on Thursday, and sat out the scrimmage. Gilbert hurt his hand breaking up a pass in the end zone, but returned to the field and said afterward he was fine. He had the hand taped.

TERRELLE PRYOR RESTS

Pryor was looking forward to returning to the 'Shoe for the first time since being banned by the school. He didn't play because of his pulled hamstring, but received a warm reception from the fans. "I just need to get back out there as soon as possible,'' Pryor said.

HARTLINE'S HOMECOMING

Browns receiver Brian Hartline celebrated his homecoming at the 'Shoe by catching a 10-yard touchdown pass from Josh McCown on the opening drive of team drills.

Hartline was looking forward to his return to Ohio State, where he played from 2006-08.

"It's great,'' Hartline said Thursday. "I'm not really a nostalgic type person, but it will cool to be back in there. For me it's closer to home. I live in Columbus. It'll be cool to have some dinner, see everybody and get back in the Shoe for some fun. I kind of wish they would open it up for everybody to fill it, but I understand the logistics that go with that. I'm looking forward to seeing a great crowd."

Hartline acknowledged he's developed nice chemistry with McCown.

"We're getting some good work in and getting a feel for each other. But I'm just doing what I'm told and he's doing what he's told when we have some errors we'll talk it out and hope not to do it again. Those are the steps we've been following."

Hartline has caught almost every ball thrown to him from McCown this camp.

"It's a very favorable ball to catch,'' said Hartline. "He throws a great football. It's easy to catch. He's fun to play with. You guys see how he communicates out there – talking to everybody and getting things situated. He definitely makes it easy on a lot of other guys.
Josh is very intellectual on and off the field. He really cares about the success of the football team and the success of every individual. He's really doing a great job."

Hartline lamented the fact that his former Ohio State teammate Terrelle Pryor is out with the pulled hamstring.

"Being healthy is important,'' said Hartline. "He has to keep getting in rehab and get back on the field. He had a good couple days of getting acquainted. There are a lot of things he was working on but that kind of comes to a halt when you're dinged up a little bit. He asks a lot of questions in the meeting rooms and the walkthroughs. I know he wants to be on the field and learning from an experience standpoint."

INJURY REPORT

The following players did not participate in the scrimmage: WR Dwayne Bowe (hamstring), CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu (knee), RB Duke Johnson (hamstring), FB Malcolm Johnson (shoulder), OL Joe Madsen (concussion), RB Luke Lundy (concussion), CB Robert Nelson (hamstring), WR Terrelle Pryor (hamstring), TE Randall Telfer (foot), RB Terrance West (calf), DL Billy Winn (sprained ankle/knee), CB Pierre Desir (hamstring), TE Kevin Haplea (knee), OLB Barkevious Mingo (arthroscopic knee surgery) and RB Glenn Winston (arthroscopic knee surgery)

WHAT'S NEXT

The Browns will host the Redskins in the preseason opener Thursday night at 8 p.m. at FirstEnergy Stadium.

Browns scrimmage: 5 observations from the Orange and Brown game

Offense shines, new kicker emerging?

Kevin Jones

COLUMBUS -- The first Orange and Brown scrimmage is in the books, and there are several important takeaways from the Browns’ trip to Ohio Stadium.

1) QB Josh McCown ignites the offense

A year after the Browns offense did not score a touchdown during the entire intrasquad scrimmage, McCown led his group down the field and into the end zone in only a handful of plays.

A third-down conversion was completed to tight end Gary Barnidge, who rumbled down the field for 48 yards. On the next play, McCown rolled all the way to the right sideline before flinging a dart into the arms of Brian Hartline for a 10-yard touchdown.

“Having a guy like Josh who’s able to come in and really master the offense instantly has been a huge blessing,” veteran left tackle Joe Thomas said.

“Overall, I’m very pleased offensively,” coach Mike Pettine said. “We scored some points. This is great teaching tape. You can’t replicate this in Berea. Knowing that this is on TV and in front of a great crowd, guys separate themselves.”

Johnny Manziel also had an impressive evening at Ohio Stadium, showing off much more polished footwork in the pocket and assertiveness with his arm strength. Manziel did not get to work with the first-team unit as originally planned because of a depth chart full of injuries. Pettine hinted Manziel will get first-team work at some point during the preseason.

We’ll have a separate article further analyzing the quarterback play.

2) Injury update: Several players miss the scrimmage

Offensive lineman Alex Mack (leg) and cornerback Joe Haden (muscle tightness) were held out of the scrimmage for precautionary reasons. Cornerback Justin Gilbert (wrist) was shaken up on a diving play in the end zone, where he batted away what would have been a touchdown for the offense.

“Alex was good to go, he’ll get plenty of work in the preseason games,” Pettine said.

Others who missed the scrimmage included: WR Dwayne Bowe (hamstring), RB Duke Johnson (hamstring), FB Malcolm Johnson (shoulder), OL Joe Madsen (concussion), RB Luke Lundy (concussion), CB Robert Nelson (hamstring), WR Terrelle Pryor (hamstring), RB Terrance West (calf), DL Billy Winn (sprained ankle/knee), CB Pierre Desir (hamstring), TE Kevin Haplea (knee), OLB Barkevious Mingo (knee surgery) and RB Glenn Winston (knee surgery).

3) Kicker Travis Coons has a strong leg

The Browns mostly have run punting drills during the first half of training camp, so insight into the team’s kicking competition was one of the things Pettine was most looking forward to at Ohio Stadium.

Coons did not disappoint, drilling 47- and 53-yarders in the first half of the scrimmage. The shaggy-haired 23-year-old spent last training camp with the Titans before he was waived right before the regular season.

“He certainly looked the part,” Pettine said.

The Browns used veteran kickers Billy Cundiff and Garrett Hartley in 2014 and are hoping for a long-term solution at the position.

4) Wide receiver Josh Lenz a consistent playmaker throughout the scrimmage

Wearing No.7 and running precise routes, Lenz unofficially had four catches in the scrimmage from three different quarterbacks. For those who have attended Browns training camp, this isn’t a breaking development. Lenz is a smooth athlete with quick feet, strong hands and a penchant for playmaking. He caught a sleak, back-shoulder touchdown pass from Manziel late in the second half.

“It’s every year you get some off-the-radar guy that shows up,” Pettine said. “We saw something in him to bring him here and a lot of that is a credit to Ray (Farmer’s) group. They can find those guys, whether it’s after the draft or wherever we acquire them from, and they can come here and be productive.”

"He’s been a guy that came in, and you barely ever hear him speak," said safety Donte Whitner. "He’s a guy that’s always working, and he made a lot of big plays out there today. Last year, I think he was with the [Indianapolis Colts]. They ended up letting him go, but he’s making a really, really good impression on his teammates and the coaching staff.”

The 6-foot, 195-pound Lenz spent all of 2014 on the Colts’ practice squad. Days like Friday are evidence Lenz is pushing full steam ahead to potentially crack the 53-man roster.

5) Other news and notes


The run defense looked markedly improved in a live-game setting. Outside of a Shaun Draughn 15-yard scamper, the lid was sealed pretty tightly on the Browns’ running backs. McCown insinuated the Browns ran the ball less than they would have because of a rash of injuries to the team’s running backs and fullback Malcolm Johnson.
Travis Benjamin fielded punts in the first half while Taylor Gabriel and Shane Wynn rotated in the second half. That position still doesn’t have a firm answer to it, although Benjamin’s grasp on the spot appears to be tightening.
Undrafted safety Landon Feichter intercepted a Thaddeus Lewis pass in the first half. The Purdue alum has an uphill battle in the defensive back room, but Pettine has said the coaching staff will weigh big plays in the scrimmage more than they will a routine practice.
Link

Vambo - That may be the most festive post I've ever seen on these forums, lol

haha i'd love to see his post if we'd beat the steelers

I dont want to belittle what McCown did but he eyeballed the receiver on the right corner throw and Williams should have had a pick 6. There was a couple he bounced the ball when it should have been a fairly easy throw and I thought he was at times really slow to get the ball out. It wasnt nearly as good of a showing as what some reports are making it out to be. Shaw looked better.

Did i mention Shelton and Orchard really impressed the hell out of me lol.

Just good to see the Browns in full pads, like a cold beer on a hot day.

I understand you didn't have your big annoying thumbs up over this paragraph.... but I would really consider if Ricci..Keyes and Wolf have a clue on conditioning...

Why would you want thumbs up on injuries that would be kind of morbid.

SMH.. learn how to comprehend a post before you respond with such a ridiculous response.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._medium=twitter

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel didn't work with the first team during Friday night's Orange and Brown scrimmage at Ohio Stadium, but he won over one of the most important starters on offense and one of his harshest critics from last year: eight-time Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas.

"He's really proved to a lot of people that this is important to him and he's ready to be an NFL starting quarterback,'' said Thomas. "Playing well in the scrimmage tonight and looking like an NFL quarterback is another good step in the direction that he wants to go. He's just earning that trust of his teammates that he's going to need to do if he wants to be that starter. He impressed a lot of people out here tonight.''

In four series of work, Manziel completed 9-of-11 attempts for 93 yards and two touchdowns, a 4-yarder to tight end E.J. Bibb on the left side of the end zone, and an 18-yarder to first-year receiver Josh Lenz, a beautiful back shoulder throw on the left side of the end zone, where he beat Kendall James.

On the latter drive, Manziel went 5-for-6 for 65 yards, including a laser shot over the middle to Marlon Moore, a 17-yard bullet to tight end Rob Housler off a rollout left.

"We always knew he had the talent,'' Thomas said. "So it was never a matter of the talent that he had. You're starting to see the work that he put in off the field, but the commitment that he's made in the meeting room. Studying film when he doesn't need to be. Doing the things that a starting quarterback has to do. I think you're seeing it now that he's in competitive situations he's able to let that talent go and play well. And that's what you saw today.''

Thomas was quick to point out, however, that even though Manziel is proving he can do the job now, he's still firmly in Josh McCown's corner too.

"Josh has done so many good things that to me it's not really a conversation about who should be the starter right now,'' said Thomas.

Coach Mike Pettine said Manziel didn't work with the ones -- as anticipated -- because of all the injuries on offense and not enough reps to go around. As it was, McCown played only two series, including one in the red zone.

"It'll happen in the preseason game, but the way we were depleted with injuries and being cautious with guys, there was just no way to do it without putting other guys at risk,'' said Pettine.

Manziel took it in stride, like he has everything else since he rejoined the team in April after 10 weeks in rehab.

"Like I said I was leaving that up to Pett and if I got some reps good, if I didn't I was just going to go out and control what I could control and that was one thing that I couldn't,'' he said. "When they told me to go in, I went in and tried to handle whatever situation I got the best I could."

Browns owner Jimmy Haslam was excited about Manziel's spirited scrimmage, in front of 49,734 fans at the 'Shoe.

"One of our coaches reminded me today he should be a college senior,'' said Haslam. "He's still 22, so he's a young guy. I think Johnny's starting to grow up and he's starting to understand you've got to work hard, and you've got to get after it every day. So he's learning to do that and he's got to prove he can do that over a period of time. But so far, so good. He's making good progress and he's working hard.''

McCown, who put a touchdown and a field goal on the board on his two series with the first-team offense, was most impressed with Manziel overcoming adversity on his opening drive. Manziel just missed Lenz deep down the right side on his opening play, and the drive fizzled five plays later on a sack by Nate Orchard, with heavy pressure from top pick Danny Shelton.

Manziel came back on his next drive, a red zone drills, to complete the 4-yarder to Bibb, who beat Orchard at the goal-line. Two drives later, back on a college football field, he showed some of that Johnny Football flare in going 5-for-5 and firing it in to Lenz.

"Oh man, it was sweet,'' McCown said of Manziel's perfect drive. "I was proud of him. He started off okay and then kind of had a lull and then that's the thing about playing this position. You can't create false adversity, it just has to happen.

"When you go through some things like tonight where you kind of have a couple of drives that don't go your way and then you pull yourself out of it, that's the main thing. The throw was terrific, but just the way he battled through it was awesome and that's the mark of making progress in my opinion and of a quarterback maturing and I'm very pleased with how he played. He played very well. He's really coming along.''

Manziel acknowledged that he shook off the opening drive and finished well.

"Sure, we came out guns blazing right there and almost threw an 80-yard touchdown on the first play,'' he said. "We just missed it. So I think Flip (offensive coordinator John DeFilippo) did a good job of dialing up some plays there. We got a first down and then three and out. After that, we got into the end zone and that's what we wanted to do. So i was happy about it."

Browns coach Mike Pettine was most pleased with Manziel's poise in the pocket. He rolled out and utilized his mobility with a purpose, but didn't take off running prematurely.

"I think the think that jumps out is that he's much less antsy in the pocket,'' said Pettine. "He sets his feet, which is something you really didn't get to see much last year, and he's trusting his reads and I thought he placed the ball, I thought his location and accuracy was very good tonight."

Manziel, who had his right arm throwing arm wrapped with ice after the scrimmage like he does after every practice, was buoyed by the performance.

"Yeah, I think that's the thing -- stringing three or four good days in a row together and felt really comfortable out there today,'' he said. "I was really looking forward to getting out here in front of these guys for the scrimmage and getting into a little bit of a live setting, and I think it really went well for all guys. I think Josh did a good job with the ones. I think Connor (Shaw) and Thad (Lewis) did a good job handling the threes as well. So all around just looking at our room as a whole, I thought it was really nice."

He acknowledged that he's starting to feel less a sense of urgency to bolt up field at the first sign of trouble.

"Yeah, I thought made some good throws today in the pocket,'' he said. "So it's not like some of those games later in the year last year where I was trying to escape to right away. I really trust these guys that I have and these protections. When we're hot, we're hot and we know it and we're getting the ball out. Feeling comfortable is a good thing."

Manziel, who's developed good timing with backups such as Lenz, Shane Wynn and Darius Jennings, saw the field well on his deep touchdown pass to Lenz.

"Just went single safety,'' he said. "I think me and Josh have had good chemistry throughout training camp. I really trust him and put it on his back shoulder there and he made a great play. So both those drives where we had touchdown passes there, I think Bibbs made a heck of a catch there on our stick route and then Josh getting in the end zone as well.

"That was the way I wanted to finish off the day, especially coming out after halftime and stalling. To get that in was big time especially moving it and I think maybe completing every pass on that drive."

The drive -- and Manziel's entire camp -- has been impressive enough to sway even the team's most hard to please veteran.

SMH.. learn how to comprehend a post before you respond with such a ridiculous response.

Bless you for the kind suggestion fellow Browns fan.

A few observations:

--I thought Lenz was the star of the scrimmage. That guy has some quick feet. Very decisive.

--I liked #52. Can't remember his name. I believe he was a late-round pick out of USC. He attacks the gap. Good instincts.

--Can't the Browns find a professional writer. The first thing I see is this subheading: "Josh McCown ignites the offense." Ignites? That word was both deceptive and amateurish. It's a word you tell your 5th graders to use to give your piece a voice.

--Speaking of McCown: Noticeable difference between how he looked during the 7-on7's vs full-team when guys were actually in the same zip code as he was in. Sheesh, he leaves the pocket when he had time to stay in it [and they can't even hit him] and throws a dirt-ball at the feet of the WR--I think it was Moore.

--The run-blocking didn't look to be opening any holes. It's gonna be a tough year on offense if Manziel doesn't become magical.

--Speaking of JM, I thought he looked good. I don't think we should put a tight leash on him in terms of his athleticism. Let him play like Wilson does.

--I liked that TE......what's his name? Bibbs? That's Mourg's boy, right? He looks the part. Good height, athletic and strong build, runs well, pretty smooth movements. Why didn't he go higher in the draft? Injuries?

--Oh, and LOL at Solomon Wilcot's. He was acting like the Browns were the greatest franchise in the NFL.

Pullard, ILB, I believe...

I know after his bomb to Wynn (spelling? We have so many Winn/Wynns it's hard to keep track) on his opening play was a fantastic throw and some others - the media will be hopping onboard the JF train again.

And you know what, after all I really rag on him and the things I say - it be finally be something he deserves when he starts getting these positive articles that have already starting coming out after the live practice, but the many more that I'm sure is to come.

I can finally say that I just hope he continues on his current track, as it's become a little clearer his mindset seriously needed to change, and perhaps has.

---

Danny Shelton cannot be contained with one man, regardless who it was. When he and Nate Orchard flew in on JF, come on guys... tell me that didn't throw a smile on your face. If not just for a second or two, had to see a smile there!

Honestly don't think we keep Thad, LOL. Everybody else back there looks , if not sold, much improved. Nice to see crisp patterns as well. Beats playing "Where's Waldo" with Gordon.

I thought that was a given!!! LOL!

Thanks for the scoop I recorded watching later.

I can't wait until first preseason game to see what falls out in a more game setting.

Thanks for your notes...Manziels first pass Lenz stopped running or else it was a perfect long pass maybe for a TD. The kid is accurate in his throws and has a much stronger arm than I thought.

Hawkins caught a pass from Manziel on an out.

Solomon impressed me. Sorry Mingo but you will not have your spot back when you come back. Solomon blew by and I mean blew...Schwartz although Schwartz didn't give up and was able to catch up and ride him off - But if we were live on the QB I think he would have accelerated right around that corner and got to the QB. So not a good job by Schwartz on that play.

Shelton is excellent he slanted to his left and read the QB and just mirrored him so that he could not have the edge. Kid is SMART and GOOD. Can't believe I was afraid of the pick when we made it. He is awesome. Orchard is good as well...need some seasoning.

Barnidge looking good as that WR TE...I don't know if the kid Hausler will make the team. Not that he played bad...just too many playing better. Hartline...so key. McCown looked like I expected. Note he was going against one of the best DB units in the NFL. But the OL was not going all out Intense. Can't wait for us to play against OTHER TEAMS!

Kickers looked good I think they made everything...including a 54 yard FG? and all the extra points.

Benji made the fair catches there were no Gunners coming at him so hard to tell. But if that says something he should be our 5th WR and Pryor would be 6??? Hope he gets healthy quick!

I didn't see any passes to the RBs...did you?

Later guys big game for the Pitbulls!

I missed the beginning of the scrimmage, but I thought that I read where Manziels first attempt ended in a TD?

Also, on the Browns App, it says that Lenz caught 4 balls from 3 different QB's. Kid has some skills.

Totally shocked by Manziel.. Could it be that he might just work out?

Shelton is HUGE and Quick.

Epps I think is his name.. UDFA TE. Not bad at all.

Justin Gilbert broke up a sure TD.. may have hurt his arm or wrist.. looked like it a little.

Hartline is exactly what I'd have hoped for. He'll catch a lot of balls this year.

--I thought Lenz was the star of the scrimmage. That guy has some quick feet. Very decisive.
Lenz makes plays, he destroyed us last year in preseason think he was with the Rams at the time? I dont know what 5 or 6 we will keep but some talent will be cut


--I liked #52. Can't remember his name. I believe he was a late-round pick out of USC. He attacks the gap. Good instincts.
He caught my eye as well, really showed great instincts to anticipate. There were a few holes but he forced plays away from them

--Can't the Browns find a professional writer. The first thing I see is this subheading: "Josh McCown ignites the offense." Ignites? That word was both deceptive and amateurish. It's a word you tell your 5th graders to use to give your piece a voice.
If he had shelton ignites the defense I could have agreed with the title but McCown looked like average backup in a scrimmage

--Speaking of McCown: Noticeable difference between how he looked during the 7-on7's vs full-team when guys were actually in the same zip code as he was in. Sheesh, he leaves the pocket when he had time to stay in it [and they can't even hit him] and throws a dirt-ball at the feet of the WR--I think it was Moore.I worry about a lot of stuff I saw with him.

--The run-blocking didn't look to be opening any holes. It's gonna be a tough year on offense if Manziel doesn't become magical. Mack didnt play but Shelton and Orchard really impressed the hell out of me. Nate is looking like a steal and Shelton's hand technique has already improved from last year.

--Speaking of JM, I thought he looked good. I don't think we should put a tight leash on him in terms of his athleticism. Let him play like Wilson does.I thought Shelton was gonna pancake him on that one play lol but I really came away impressed with what I saw. He looks effortless slinging it.

--I liked that TE......what's his name? Bibbs? That's Mourg's boy, right? He looks the part. Good height, athletic and strong build, runs well, pretty smooth movements. Why didn't he go higher in the draft? Injuries?Bibbs had some leg injuries and played through them and it killed his stock but the kid imho was the 2nd best te behind Maxx and may have a greater upside. The ball he caught from Manziel for the TD was amazing, that ball had major heat and it was going away from him. It just disappeared in his big mitts

--Oh, and LOL at Solomon Wilcot's. He was acting like the Browns were the greatest franchise in the NFL. Solomon may remember how we looked in preseason a year ago lol He sucks but he and Mike did well for a scrimmage

I'm still glad that I don't have to make the call on cutting players from the WR corp ... not that we have stars or huge names, but we have some depth of players with some upside. Don't be shocked if we keep 7 WR and 4 RB because we'll only keep 2 QB and 1 less OL because of Erving's versatility

Bowe
Hartline
Hawkins
Gabriel
Pryor
Benjamin
Lenz

We very well might end up with a wr corp that has the best #4,5,6 in the league and the worst 1,2.

But I'd think that would mean they were at least productive even if no one individual is blowing it up?

While I like this list, do you think Mayle doesn't make the team? I understand he has size but he also has issues with drops ala Little. Now that could be because of his thumb injury, but also it seems that was an issue in college.

After the first 4 on your list, things get a little merky with this group. Tough decisions to make for a coach.

I am referring to talent not production.

mayle doesnt deserve it IMO ... he hasn't had a good camp thus far and can't shake the drops (I know he's coming off injury ... but it's always been a problem for him) ... I think we're considering Pryor a "Rookie" WR and he's got more upside.

I just did the numbers, and I have a hard time seeing 7 WR, even if we only keep 2 QB ... but if we do ......

Here is how I see things as of right now, if we keep 7 WR:

K: 1 (Someone)
P: 1 Lee
LS: 1 Hughlett
QB: 2 McCown, Manziel
OL: 8 Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, Greco, Schwartz, Erving, Bowie, (Seymour or Painter)
WR: 7 Bowe, Hartline, Gabriel, Hawkins, Benjamin, Mayle, Pryor
FB: 1 Johnson
RB: 4 West, Crowell, Draughn, Duke Johnson
TE: 4 Housler, Dray, Barnett, Bibbs
DL: 8 D. Bryant, Starks, Shelton, Kitchen, Cooper, Hughes, A. Bryant, (Taylor or Winn)
LB: 7 Dansby, Kirksey, Kruger, Robertson, Orchard, Solomon, Mingo
DB: 8 Haden, Williams, Williams, Whitner, Gipson, Desir, Poyer, Bademosi, Gilbert, Campbell (I think that Bademosi needs to show something on defense .... or another guy could take his spot ... which I would hate to see given his special teams prowess)

Rookies making the team would be:
Erving, Mayle, Malcolm Johnson, Duke Johnson, Bibbs, Shelton, Cooper, Orchard, and Campbell

Not making the team, and probably being practice squad bound would be:
Gaines, Pullard

IR:
Telfer, Ekpre-Olomu


I keep the 4 RB, 4 TE, and a FB because I think that we are going to run the ball a lot.

I keep only 8 OL because we should have a great OL, and exceptional backups in the next 2 .... and a capable guy in the 3rd spot.

7 WR is probably 1 too many, but I did this list with that premise.

We kept 2 QB much of last year, so I think that could be the case again, probably with Shaw on the Practice Squad again.

8 DL would usually be too many for a 3-4 team, but I think that we are going to run a lot of 4 man fronts as well. Pettine also wants to run whole units on the DL, so that indicates an extra guy or 2 here.

I think that 7 LB is a concession tot he DL. Also, I included Armonty Bryant as a DL, but he could swing to LB as well.

10 DB is probably right, Most teams would keep 6 CB and 4 S .... but I think that 5/5 might be right, given Pettine's love of playing 3 S in certain defenses.

I still think that it will be hard to keep 7 WR, and if we keep 6, I think that it will be hard to have 3 of them under 5'10". This is why I eliminated Lenz too. I saw a picture of him celebrating his TD with Manziel, and he looked about the same height as Manziel, if he was that tall.

Anyway, that's my initial thoughts on the roster as of today.

How are you going to keep this Kid Lenz of the field ?

Our rosters would be pretty similar Ytown ... I probably wouldn't put Housler on the team right now, Lenz for Mayle has to be discussed, and I actually think West is an option to be cut as well

I can't see West being cut considering that his rookie season wasn't bad at all. If anything I can see this Lenz being swapped with Mayle if the dropsies don't stop.

4 backs I go 3 RBs and a FB with another RB stashed on the PS
7 OL with a couple stashed on PS
2 QBs with Shaw on PS
3 TE's
5 WRs

I prefer keeping a tad more defensive players on the active roster and more offensive players on the practice squad if that makes sense.

wow 5 WRs?

Who would you choose to be your five right now?

I'd have a tough time keeping less than 6, maybe even 7

If I had to make a decision today. Gabriel 1, Hartline 2, Pryor, Lenz and I would probably look for another receiver. I just aint a big fan of Hawk, Bowe or Benji. Hell I could keep 4 and add another TE. I like 2 TE sets anyway lol

Wow! Hawk on the outside? That's a pretty bold statement my friend

I just got done watching the scrimmage. For a scrimmage, I thought the Browns looked pretty good, but I did see a lot of QBs staring down WRs. Even when the QBs went through their progressions, they would tend to lock on to their WR of choice for a couple seconds before the ball was released.

I semi agree with you (not a huge Bowe or Benji fan) but I do like Hawkins.

If I had to trim our roster to 6 I'd go

1. Bowe
2. Hartline
3. Hawkins
4. Gabriel
5. Pryor
6. Benjamin/Lenz

If you go Benjamin, maybe Lenz sneaks on the PS
If you go Lenz, obviously we trust someone else as PR

I'd say goodbye to Mayle

so... the way New Orleans was for years.

No answer. Just a playmaker! REALLY impressed!

New Brennan?

Long way before I could even begin to take a stab at several position battles ..

Hartline this year = Burleson last year

I will not be shocked if he is cut. It seems like there are more promising guys on the roster. Gabriel and Bowe outside, Hawkins in the slot. That is fine with me.

Couldn't agree more. Hartline has practiced well the last few days, but it wouldn't shock me

I don't see that all. I see Hartline as a lock to make this roster and penciled in as our #2 WR next to Bowe.

Hartline is 28 and one of the first FA signings we could do. Burleson was on his last leg and 32 or 33 when he signed and it was roughly a month into the FA period.

I think a inquiry like this-- promising young talent vs established vets-- could be something addressed next year. Still, young and promising doesn't mean let go of established veterans after a few weeks of training camp, IMO. Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins, I think, are more likely to get walking papers next year instead of this year and we'll let players like Gabriel grow and ask to prove more on the field. I like Gabriel, but it's been one year.

I expect Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins to be on the field as #1, #2, slot WR, respectively. Gabriel will certainly get his time on the field with a heavy rotation, but I think the above three is what we'll see week 1, if everyone is healthy.

I agree with this completely. I don't see much similarity between Hartline and Burleson other than both were FA. And lets face it - Pryor, Benjamin and Mayle are all about 'potential' - I really like what I see and read about Pryor - but he's only done it in training camp so far. Benji has sort of flashed as a WR - but also shown to be shy of contact, and is a big ? (Don't want him as a returner in any way shape or form) and Mayle is a rookie ... Gabriel I think has shown enough to be a legit starter but that wouldn't be a reason to cut Hartline.

Personally, I don't think they keep 4 TEs on the roster and the final spot will come down between Dray/Barnidge. I think they really liked the Bibbs kid and will give Housler a shot. Not that he'll do this often, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Pryor line up as a TE at times. I wonder if they'll try that in the preseason. Overall, terribly lacking in terms of talent at this position group. Maybe Bibbs can surprise??



I see us keeping a lot of DL simply because of the injuries last year and I think we'll use 4 man fronts at times. I think Taylor and Winn both make this team, if healthy, and the odd man out would be Kitchen.



I'm not alluding to you believing you like this guy or anything but since I saw his name in the list, this is a better place as any to say this....To me, Poyer is bad. I don't have an answer to who should be the direct back up to Gipson but I don't think it should be him. I don't know much on Campbell but think we're rather short on depth at the safety position.

And regarding Bademosi, I think he stays because of special teams. the competition may actually be between him and Moore, but with all the WR bodies we have in camp, that may put him in a tough spot.

I also agree that we could keep two QB and use Pryor as 'third' on the depth chart.

Burelson was also injured coming to the Browns, by the time he got healthy others had shown they could do the job... namely Gabriel and Benjamin.

Bowe didn't play in the scrimmage and yet some real lasting assessments on him? From what this year spells what you all see?

Hartline did play in the Scrimmage and I thought he was the #1's MVP if I had to pick one. I don't know how some of you can come away with the scrimmage and claim he will be cut???

Lenz...was going against Bademosi... I saw Lenz stop on a route that would have been a TD - The kid has good hands but he will not make this team.

Benjamin fielded the punts...I think they got him penciled in as the Punt Return Starter and he caught his passes. Mayle who again people are reporting has bad hands but in this scrimmage he caught his passes and ran some good routes. Its going to be tougher cutting him than Lenz.

Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins and Gabriels are locks. Pryor and Benjamin or my odds on favorites to make the team. Mayle hopefully we can get him on the practice squad.

jmho

Good point. I completely forgot about that.

If there is a FA WR cut, it will be Bowe... Just a guess..

Nah, I don't think so....too much dead money if you cut him.

I'm not sure if Lenz will end up like this as there is much more time to go in the preseason, but each year there is a camp darling that does well with 2nd/3rd teams that fans cling to but never really ends up achieving much.

Armond Brown, David Sims just to name a few in recent years. For Lenz's sake, I hope he doesn't end up on this list.

If there is anything in Lenz's corner, although a very small sample size, is the FO has been able to identify UDFA worth looking at and keeping on the roster. But after year one with the new FO and coaching staff it may be easier to make that team then now with two drafts, two FA periods, etc. with depth a little bit deeper.

I just realized that I made a mistake on that post of minre. That's to on the DBs, which is what I intended, and what I accounted for, but not what I wrote.

I think that 4 TE is not out of the question if we are going to runt he ball a lot. Barnidge was injured a lor last year, and Bibbs was last year in college. Housler is not an inline blocker. I think 4 is realistic.

The team seems to really like Poyer, and he was the star early on when Gipson was holding out. He is a good special teams player as well.
Bademosi has been one of my favorite players since we signed him, and I hope that his special teams prowess is good enough to keep him on the team. I have to wonder though, because he is notn progressing as a DB.

FWIW, Barnidge was the first team TE at the scrimmage. He's on the squad. Third TE I think will come down to Dray v. Housler.

Kitchen didn't come out until the third team, and that was with Taylor not participating. I think he's a longshot to make it unless Taylor is just too broken at this point.

And don't forget, Hartline is known as a dependable WR. You can't underestimate the value of a guy like that, especially in a new O-scheme.

I'm just not sure if Hartline is one of the best five wide receivers on the team. What if Lenz is for real? Wouldn't you rather have him instead of Hartline? I could totally see Bowe, Hawkins, Gabriel, Mayle, Lenz, and Pryor as our six guys we keep.

How many smurf sized receivers can you keep in a group of 6, or maybe 7?

Hawkins, Gabriel, and Benjamin appear to be pseudo locks for the team. These are 3 very short receivers, all of whom cn do different things.

Lenz is listed as 6', but he looked an inch or 2 shorter than Manziel when the 2 celebrated their TD. Manziel is listed at 6', and is a little under that .... so I would guess that Lenz is 5'10" to 5'11". From a senior year college scouting report, he was listed as 5'11", and those are often exaggerated slightly. CBS also listed him as 5'11".

Pettine has wanted to add size to the WR corps, thus we signed guys like Bowe and Hartline. We also added Mayle in the draft, as a bigger bodied receiver, and converted Pryor to get more size at WR.

I just have trouble seeing Lenz making the team, being that he is another small WR ....already having 3 such receivers, and wanting size at the position to go with the guys we already have. Now if we drop Benjamin, then maybe he has a chance.

JMHO

I haven't seen Mayle or Pryor on the field yet , no clue as to what they can do .. Lenz is interesting at this point in Camp ..

Lenz hasn't went up against the #1's, least that I know of. I know we saw him a lot during the scrimmage. Who knows how that WR group is all going to shake out!

If Lenz makes it I think Benji is out.

He's been a below average player since he's been here with some flashes here and there.

I just can't see Hartline getting cut. At all.

well.... how many did we keep last year that size?

And what was the point of emphasis at the position this year?

Mayle has played some, but he also just got the cast off of his thumb recently. I am sure that are working him in slowly.

I thought that Manziel connected with him on a 30 yard play in the scrimmage. (On the drive that Bibbs scored the TD, IIRC)

First, let me say that if we are at the point where a dependable guy like Hartline is on the bubble, we're in a pretty damn good position for once

Ytown made some really good points about what kind of WR's we were targeting this year. My prediction is that they are planning to have a good mix of size/speed in our WR group when its all said and done. I think Lenz is REALLY going to have to stud out to take the spot of a dependable size guy like Hartline.

I think his best bet to make the final roster is to show his value as a smurf and look to knock off one of them, I think Benji being his best bet.

I understand--and respect--your opinion, but I disagree w/you.

I think this group as a whole is way below average and amongst the worst in the league. When you can't even identify which guys should make the roster, you have some issues.

That is a bit of a broad statement, but you might want to take it in this context---------it's not like our DL where we have a bunch of guys who have established that they can play or have a good pedigree. Nah, the WR group consists of a bunch of guys who haven't done much or haven't done a damn thing.

I think the guy who should go is Mayle. He had a history of dropping passes BEFORE he hurt himself. I watched him in the scrimmage. His body language reeks. He looks like another of those entitled guys who have only relied on their physical attributes throughout their entire life. I would much rather keep a guy like Lenz than an underachiever like Mayle. The only problem is that Farmer drafted him, which means his roster spot is probably a given.

j/c
The very idea that Hartline is on the bubble is pure insanity. He plays and produces against the #1's. He's most likely the most dependable and valuable WR on this team. It amazes me how easily distracted and quickly people overrate some second or third string scrub.

SQUIRREL!

I just said I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut. I don't think he will be.

Let's not kid ourselves, we are still building/re-building. If there is a young promising player, he should be kept over Hartline. We can't afford to lose a player like Gabriel, Williams, etc. because we kept Hartline.

Isn't Bowe older than Hartline?

Yes. He is also getting paid a lot more (Bowe got $9M guaranteed, Hartline $3M).

My guess is that they both make the roster. I just don't think Hartline should make it because he is a "savvy veteran," especially if there is a more promising player that is on the bubble.

Many teams will be cutting players just like Brian Hartline.

I just believe you are seriously undervaluing the talent Hartline brings to the table.

No. I am not. I think he will make the team.

Pit, I understand this statement. But, if Gabriel and Benjamin shine in preseason, does Heartline stay? Size and speed where does Heartline fit? You know as well as anyone youth with almost equal talent trumps veterans.

I'm not comparing Heartline with the others. I'm thinking final roster and how many receivers are kept vs. other positions. Secondary receivers who play special teams may get more weight. I by no means measure Heartlines abilities against other receivers.

I gotta admit that SQUIRREL line was a classic. Had me cracking up and thinking of Christmas Vacation. Best post you've made in months.

Totally agree.

In addition although the OL is a strength the RB's are really young guys with very little experience. Not one of them have been a bell cow.

As much as I like to be optimistic at this time of year the reality of the offensive skill positions is crystal clear.

Many lack experience individually and as a group in a new offense they will be really behind the curve as a unit.

My point was : Lets get a couple of pre season games under our belt before we start to widdle down some of the positions .. I like the idea of making hard choices at cut time !

Mark my words, we will have to cut some quality, d-line men this year. I'm sure our d line is being monitored closely by many teams...

Mark my words, we will have to cut some quality, d-line men this year. I'm sure our d line is being monitored closely by many teams...

Or trade one or two for something else. That's not beyond possible!

I think even the PS will be tough decisions. Really want to see more of Lenz; the scrimmage was interesting to see. We may a wideouts, QB, DL practice squad for a year.

TRUE...Honestly I don't think any roster decisions can be based on what I saw from this scrimmage alone.

j/c:



^ There goes my assumption....



https://twitter.com/MarcSesslerNFL

At the present time, Hartline and Hawkins are our starting wideouts in the depth chart. And yes, Hartline will stay.

1. Hartline
2. Bowe
3. Hawkins
4. Gabriel
5. Pryor
6. Benjiman



This is a critical mistake when looking at WR's. Hartline is 6'2" and 200 lbs. The question you didn't ask was how crisp are Hartlines routes. Hartline is actually bigger than Jerry Rice and runs a faster 40 than Rice did.

You see, being a good WR is far more about your route running and hands than it is about pure size and speed.

I didn't realize Heartline was 6'2". I thought slightly under 6'. My bad for assuming!! Thus, why I thought Gabriel could be a replacement. Browns wouldn't carry two with equal skill set. Another reason, I think people grossly underestimate Browns receivers. Not having numbers to back it stat trackers trump my opinion. This receiver group will be fun to watch.

I should have clarified a little more. I thought it was a given a good receiver is a "route runner." Speed/size and having great "route running" skills is a must for receivers.

I'll change my tune here. I agree with your 1-4. Having two receivers with size and two with speed does setup well (all route runners). I'm curious how they work match ups each week. I think Gabriel studs this year too.

I can't even adventure guessing who I want after the first four. Preseason will certainly bring out competition. Pryor certainly adds to the size factor. I'm a little bias toward Shane Wynn being a IU alumni. Both these guys complement the four.

After the Smurf season last year I'm glad they brought in balance at the WR position. Some have stated they believe the reason is because McCown is so used to working with big WR's but I don't believe that's the case. I believe they realized the added dimension of big bodied WR's ability to use body position and fight for grabs was something sorely lacking last year. I believe all one has to do is look at our TD passes, or lack there of in the red zone to see it was needed.

To me, it's all about balance. You need size/speed/ball catching running backs just as you need size/speed at receiver. You can say the same at TE. Defenses have weaknesses. More combinations more answers you have against.

I am a big advocate for "balance." I feel you can build a great offense without the likes of Brady, Manning, and Rodgers. Where teams can win games with Flaco, Eli, and Wilson. It's not like these guys are average just not as good as the elite.

Those are my thoughts. I don't think we will simply cut a quality player unless we exhaust all trade options. If nothing else we can pick up a 5th-6th rounder.

Browns training camp Day 11: Joe Thomas takes a couple days off and Johnny Manziel rests a sore right elbow

* Whew: Joe Thomas said he can’t remember ever having to leave a practice because of injury, but Monday’s roll-up on his right knee proved not serious enough to even merit an MRI. Thomas did not practice on Tuesday and most likely will not play in the preseason opener Thursday against Washington. “If it was a game that mattered, I’d be there,” he said. He did squeal in pain when Danny Shelton and another defensive lineman accidentally fell on his right leg, but said he knew the injury was not too serious. “When you get 700 pounds falling on your leg, you’re pretty concerned. Once I got up I knew it wasn’t too bad,” he said. The scare might prompt the Browns to reduce, if not eliminate, any game action for the eight-time Pro Bowl left tackle in the preseason – except that he wants to play. “I guess I’ve got enough confidence in myself that I don’t feel I have to play,” he said. “But I like to play. I want to go out there and be there with my linemates and be out there helping Josh (McCown) and doing everything I can. If I’m healthy, it’s only fair to those guys to be out there giving my best.” In Thomas’ absence on Tuesday, rookie Cam Erving and Michael Bowie split first-team reps at left tackle.

* The streak: Thomas, 30, disclosed that he has played through three medial collateral ligament (MCL) tears and two high ankle sprains while assembling a mind-boggling streak of 7,917 snaps without missing a down in his eight NFL seasons – the longest active streak in the league, per the Browns. I asked him if the streak alone puts pressure on him to play through injuries. “I don’t think it’s more important to me than just the pride I have being out there with my linemates and doing what I can to try to help my team win. That’s really the pressure that I feel,” Thomas said.

* Johnny shut down: Johnny Manziel did not throw in practice as a result of soreness in his right elbow. Manziel tossed a few spirals left-handed to ball boys and did participate in handoffs to running backs but otherwise watched the other three quarterbacks do all the passing work. “He had some stiffness and soreness in his elbow,” said quarterbacks coach Kevin O’Connell. “It just comes from high volume of throws. He’s obviously worked very, very hard every day to be ready. Sometimes you have to kind of help a guy out when he’s working that hard and take a day. He had a heckuva day mentally.” Manziel had his right elbow wrapped in ice after the Columbus scrimmage on Friday night, but Manziel said he does that after every game and coach Mike Pettine said it was routine for all the quarterbacks. O’Connell indicated a sore elbow is no different from a tired arm. “Depending on how a guy throws a football, we’re all different,” said the former Patriots and Jets quarterback. “Some guys get the shoulder soreness, some guys get the elbow. There’s really nothing to make of that other than high volume of throws in a short amount of time.” O’Connell and Pettine said that Manziel would not be limited for Thursday’s game.

* Receivers have to catch: Two newcomers struggling with drops throughout camp have been tight end Rob Housler and rookie receiver Vince Mayle. Pettine said of Housler’s problems: “I think that’s something that’s obvious that he needs to work on. The rest of his game has been solid, but when the ball is thrown to you, you’ve got to catch it. I know that’s something he knows and (tight ends) Coach (Brian) Angelichio knows, and they work on it every day. But we’re in a bottom line business. I’m confident he’ll put in the work and when we get out in the preseason games, that’s when it counts the most. We’ll see how it plays out.” On Mayle, who broke a thumb at the Senior Bowl and participated in the offseason workouts wearing a cast, Pettine said: “Coming off the thumb I thought he struggled early in camp with soreness. But Vince has done some good things. I think he’s faster in pads than we anticipated him to be. He plays hard every snap. We’ll see … how he responds in a game.”

* Scratches: The following players were among those still not practicing on Tuesday and were ruled out of Thursday’s game by Pettine: Receivers Dwayne Bowe and Terrelle Pryor, running backs Shaun Draughn and Duke Johnson, and cornerbacks Pierre Desir and Robert Nelson.

* Quick hitters: This is what receiver Brian Hartline said about team expectations: “The talent’s here to go .500. We don’t want to be .500. We want to be above that.” … Receiver Josh Lenz switched to No. 17 from No. 7 … Running back Terrance West spent a couple periods in the coaches doghouse as a rookie. How’s he doing this year? “I think he’s taken a step. I think there’s still room for improvement. But I think Terrance is heading in the right direction,” Pettine said.

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=48391

I wonder how much of Mayle's issues are the thumb - either actual, or mental.

I saw someone on here call him another body catcher like Braylon - was he like that in college, or is that just what we've seen of him here? Basically, I'm wondering if it isn't a subconscious thing he's doing right now to protect that thumb.

On Mayle...he came with that reputation of dropping a pass but never have a read that he is a Body Catcher except on this board. I have not seen him enough to stat either way with my own eyes. So have to go on what I read - here and prior.

Although not concentrating on him...did notice his number 85. Saw him catch a couple of passes but there was no slow mo replay but I didn't see any body catch or drops.

What little film I have seen of him from camps he is catching with his hands. He is very raw so that is a natural reaction for beginners to make - catch to the body. But unlike QM or even Little I don't think the kid has bad hands.

Again the reference to the Thumb surgery was when he first started camp he did frequently make drops but in the later stages he has been pretty consistent. Again from the little that I have read and seen. Which isn't much.

I do say he is a prime candidate to go to our practice squad. Because of the Thumb surgery (regardless how it effects him) I think he will get through and remain on the Practice squad. We might need him later in the season as he develops and there are always guys getting nicks and bruises. Once he comes on I don't think we chance waiving him again. It would be for the duration.
jmho

Mayle had 19 drops as a senior, the highest in the nation. The second highest was 12. Drops are a part of the resume before the thumb injury. It isn't something new.

He is also very raw as a receiver. I think that was his 2nd year as a WR, IIRC.

He's not an immediate payoff type guy .... he is a guy who needs to develop a bit.

I keep hearing this about our draft picks. JFF, Mayle. etc....

I wonder if they actually draft players to you know, play?

How many balls thrown his way...also they all might have been bonafide drops but if there are numerous bad placement on the ball then that numbers has a different meaning.

Again he's a raw talent as long as he continues to progress he will be good.

Quincy Morgan...he bobbled almost every pass he touched...including the ones he held onto. Maybe the worst hands I saw on a Browns WRs...smh Got to see more of the kid Mayle to judge him...hate to judge him totally via stats...Like MoMass I thought had a bad rap on him for his hands...thought they were pretty good - he just became a different WR after that illega.....err my bad no flag LEGAL hit on him by Harrison.

Look, he had seven more drops than anyone else in the NCAA. You simply can't excuse that away. Drops are calculated on the same basis for everyone in the NCAA. So trying to spin it away really has no validity.

Check this one out:








Hope that helps.

To be fair he was also at the top in # of receptions as well. What I watched on the kid, I didnt see a great deal of body catching but I did see a lack of concentration. He will turns his thumbs out instead of back. Just raw, we will see how he is doing by the 4th preseason game.

Was I not being fair for pointing out that tab's answer to Purp was not the truth?

Nope, you were spot on. Mayle has a history of drops, but as Mourg stated it may be more the concentration piece then dropsies.

Isn't mayle new to the receiver position? I thought I read somewhere that he has only been playing this spot for a short time, so he theoretically has a high ceiling. Also, he was one the most productive WR's in CFB last year, granted it was in a pass heavy offense, but more targets equal more potential perceived drops right?

I don't think Mayle gets cut. Too early. If we try to sneak him on the practice squad I think someone will pick him up (Charles Johnson anyone?)

Unless he completely bombs the preseason, I think Mayle is a lock. If Pryor doesn't come back and play soon, he is the one on the bubble big time.

You bring up some good points.

Here are some things I know about him from reading:

--Yes, he is relatively new to the position. He wanted to be a basketball player. He was playing JC ball.


--Very good physical size, but you probably already knew that.

--High production.

--Maturity issues.

--Hears footsteps, which led to many of his drops.

--Needs work on route running.

--Has a high ceiling.

--Doesn't use his body to fight for the ball.

--Can make big plays.

--Good runner after the catch.

--Struggles w/press coverage.

--Plays "small" at times.

--Slow off the LOS, but good long speed.

--Willing blocker, but has poor technique and gets a lot of holding calls.

--Not a good route runner....caught a lot of bubble screens in college.

--NFL ready frame.

--Many drops are when he thinks contact is coming.

--Almost quit. Wanted to play basketball rather than football.

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree w/Memphis in that this guy is very similar to Greg Little.

Drops are calculated the same, but it makes sense that the player with the most receptions would also have a lot of drops. I'd be more interested in the rate in which he dropped passes and not the actual total number.

Did you miss all the reports about how he caught a TON of bubble screens and dropped a TON of passes that were contested?

if you go back to school for him, he dropped a lot of balls, but when you compare to the number of balls thrown his way , it's not as worrisome.

See above.

I must have. My main point still stands, if a player has a ton of passes thrown his way, he will drop more passes.

I am not saying Mayle is good or bad. I am saying I don't know. As I said before, I am more interested in the rate at which he drops passes more than the total number of passes dropped. I don't know if those numbers exist (or if the people tallying those numbers are reliable).

I forget which thread I posted it on, but I did post a bunch of his stuff on one of threads tonight. You might want to do do a search Vince Mayle scouting reports. You'll see what I mean.

I don't really care all that much. I think he is a bubble guy on the roster as it is.

LOL............okay.

I think I read somewhere back around the draft that he was targeted 12-15 times a game? Averaged 10 receptions or something like that? I think his drop rate was like 8% or something? Dropping 8% of your passes obviously won't cut it in the NFL, but there's got to be some kind of reason you target a guy like that so many times.

Can't say I'd argue many of the points on your list. But I will say that much if not most of those can be improved upon and overcome. It may have just been fluff, but I recall reading a blurb awhile back talking about how Mayle has been trying to study the top WR's in the league and adopt those techniques.

I don't know if I'd be ready to dub him Gregg Little 2.0 just yet. I'd have to see him in action. Little always bummed me out. Whenever the guy actually caught the ball, I thought he was pretty dang good after the catch.

I didn't excuse anything...I just would like to learn more about the kid before I throw him into the fire. I asked questions to know the facts...why is that so dangerous to anyone else opinion? Don't you wish to know the facts or you read the stat and made up your mind? Thats it bad hands cut his ass!

Eh, I think it is, as the proportions do not even out.

He dropped 19 last year, the next highest was 12. So that means his number of drops is 58.3% higher than then next guy. So in order for his catch ratio to match the second-most-drops-guy he would have to have had 58.3% more passes thrown his way than that guy. I can't find any numbers as to the number of targets, or even who that other guy was, but having that many more targets doesn't seem likely. And that would just to be "as bad as the 2nd worst guy" and not to be "good."

But I hesitate to drag facts and statistics into one of these threads. Putting math in here is worrisome enough.

Nobody said to cut his ass. The point is he has trouble with drops. Maybe that can be corrected and maybe it can't. That doesn't change the fact he has an issue with drops. It's not a new problem, it's an ongoing problem. Point being, excuses won't change that.

Fair post. We have to let it play out. It's just fun discussing this kind of stuff.

I think my biggest point of contention is that you don't teach "good hands." By this point in time, he should have received enough coaching to know how to properly catch the ball.

Think about a guy like Odell Beckham Jr. Do you think anyone taught him to catch like that? He just has it. We all know guys like Leon, Q, and Little had good coaching, but they never mastered catching the ball.

Anyway.........again.....we are both speculating right now. There are no wrong or right answers. It's just good debate and conversation.

Actually, I just heard an interview on the Dan Le Batard show with Beckham and Jarvis Landry. They grew up together and went to LSU together. Landry said that they used to go outside and just throw the ball as hard as they could at each other to practice their hands.

Guys w/good hands love catching the ball. I hate saying this because it is self-serving, but my brother and I both had very good hands. We used to throw things at each other all the time. It would start off casual, but it always escalated. It always became a contest. My son and I did the same thing. One handed catches. Hands facing the wrong way. It's fun!!!

I saw a great clip last year where Michael Irvin was w/the Bears' receivers. They are all doing trick questions. Michael [and I know most people hate him, but he was hilarious] gets up there and starts catching balls from the JUGS machine. He says something like: no one had to teach me how to catch and he scoff laughs. He says that the day he was born the doctor tried to slap his butt and he caught his hand. LMAO.........he does this while catching balls from the machine that are coming at him pretty hard. He talked the entire time. The cross-handed catch was the hardest one. Jeffries and Marshall did it earlier. Michael dropped a few, but then he got it..........talking the entire time. Man, that was entertaining.

Some guys can catch...........some can't.

I remember the draft special a day before the 2011 NFL draft...Irvin selected Greg Little as his top WR outside of AJ Green in that draft...and said he had something around the strongest hands in that class (which he obviously had poor hands catching wise...perhaps they were strong)

I knew OBJ had really nice hands at LSU...but I was amazed his hands seemed to get even more amazing in the NFL (I don't recall his hands being amazing in college, but definitely had amongst the top hands that class) All the talk was Watkins and Evans...I was talking up Brandin Cooks, when OBJ became a monster...the other 3 are beasts as well, but Odell has perhaps the best hands in the league